THE JTA CURRENT PLAN
Metro Jacksonville's vision is significantly different than the current JTA Transportation Center plans. Partially as a result of the city's inability to make a decision on the future of the convention center location, the current plan sprawls over six city blocks. As currently drawn, the plan limits the transit oriented development potential a typical transportation center could stimulate, while creating two poorly designed public facilities.
The plan calls for a substandard convention facility boxed in by a transportation center that still lacks a convention hotel and complementing retail and entertainment uses.
In addition, a transportation center sprawling six blocks would make it difficult and time consuming for transit users to transfer between modes. If transferring becomes to difficult, despite the investment, Jacksonville's mass transit system will continue to struggle to attract choice riders.
THE METRO JACKSONVILLE PLAN
Metro Jacksonville believes that the best solution for the development of a new transportation center would feature a mix of old and new. Implementation of the center would be phased as various funding opportunities present themselves.
Historic Preservation #1
Metro Jacksonville is a proponent of historic preservation. As a part of the plan, the Neo-Classical Revival style 1919 terminal building would be preserved and converted back to its original use: a train station.
Featuring a 75-foot barrel vaulted ceiling and currently closed off to the general public, this beautiful waiting room would be main entrance to Jacksonville's new state-of-the-art transportation center. Here, passengers would be able to purchase tickets for transit options, such as commuter rail, high speed rail, streetcar service, and Amtrak.
Additional space within the existing terminal structure could become the location of a museum that focuses on Jacksonville's historical contributions to the transportation industry. The Atlantic Coast Line Steam Locomotive #1504 and passenger rail car currently rusting in the convention center parking lot could be restored to become interactive exhibits for this cultural setting.
Historic Preservation #2
Continuing to be overlooked and discarded in the current plans, Metro Jacksonville believes the existing pedestrian tunnels beneath the terminal are worth preserving and incorporating into the project. As a part of this terminal's vision, the tunnels would be restored to their original use and used to provide access from the terminal building to rail platforms. The elevated addition shown in JTA's current plans would be eliminated in favor of historic preservation and saving money in the process. Furthermore, these tunnels provide wheelchair accessibility without the use of elevators.
A Central Square
The Prime Osborn's existing exterior courtyard would remain. However, it would be transformed into a centralized public space with the Project for Public Spaces' Power of 10 concept applied for better utilization. Adjacent to the central enclosed mall, a continuous flow of pedestrian traffic would be generated on all four sides of this space by placing multiple transit terminals, retail and cultural establishments.
With decent mix of uses directly integrated with this space, it could become a popular urban destination in its own right. Detroit's Campus Martius Park presents a visual of how this space could look and feel.
Detroit's Campus Martius Park
The Mall
The existing convention center concourse would remain. It would be converted into a central enclosed mall, lined with retail which would connect various transit options at the transportation center. This space would be similar to Washington, DC's Union Station gallery and Jacksonville International Airport's new concourses shown below.
Washington, DC's Union Station features dining and retail
Jacksonville International Airport's new concourse lined with retail and dining operations
Demolition/Adaptive Reuse
An obsolete convention center is not a complementing use for a transportation center. This is especially true considering that the current convention center is located in the original transportation center. Attempting to design around this fact has only created two poorly designed public spaces.
In Metro Jacksonville's vision, the Mayor's Office, City Council, and the community should embrace moving the convention center to a more viable site that complements existing and future uses in downtown.
This would free up the existing non-historic exhibition hall for transit use. In Metro Jacksonville's plan, this structure would be partially preserved. The northern portion of the exhibition hall would be preserved and converted into a mix of uses spanning two floors. These uses would include offices, leasable retail spaces facing the enclosed pedestrian mall, and a Greyhound bus terminal. The southern portion of the exhibition hall would be demolished to create bus apron space and room for additional track.
Integrating JTA's plans
A compact transportation center would free up several nearby blocks for infill mixed use transit oriented development.
As a part of the JTA plan, a new JTA bus terminal, Skyway station, parking garage, and an office building would be constructed.
In Metro Jacksonville's vision, these plans would be integrated into a compact setting without changing the meat and bones of the construction documents. In this plan, with the removal of the convention center from this space, all buildings would be relocated south of Forsyth Street.
Doing so would resolve several major site design issues:
1. With everything south of Forsyth Street, a more compact facility is created. This will make it easier for the end user to transfer between different modes of transit.
2. By purposely placing various transit terminals around the central square and mall, continuous pedestrian traffic is created on all four sides of the space. This creates the foot traffic needed to support retail and the use of the square as a popular centralized gathering space.
3. Condensing the JTA's sprawling plan south of Forsyth clears up to six adjacent blocks for urban infill transit oriented development. With proper planning, this transportation center alone could transform a desolate stretch of LaVilla into a major vibrant walkable downtown gateway neighborhood.
In Metro Jacksonville's vision, the office building would be relocated from the center of expressway ramps to the city owned block bounded by Bay, Lee, Forsyth and Johnson Streets. This would allow for the creation of an urban street edge on all four sides of the structure. The current building layout also perfectly fits on the block that has its southwest corner encroached by the Skyway.
The existing and proposed Skyway structure would remain as shown in JTA's plan. It would form the northern edge of the central square and would combine with other facilities to create a pedestrian friendly sidewalk environment that would span multiple blocks along Bay Street.
JTA's proposed bus terminal would be moved two blocks south in an area currently occupied by the Prime Osborn's surface parking lot. Perfectly aligned with the mall (the new central public concourse), this terminal would serve as the west anchor for the central square and pedestrian mall.
HOW TO MAKE A VISION LIKE THIS HAPPEN
This is an idea that needs to be sold to JTA, the Mayor's Office, and the City Council. Moving the Prime Osborn out of the old terminal is key to a plan such as this becoming a reality. To get to this point, contacting and sharing this information with the entities mentioned keeps these ideas front and center and leads to the community support needed to tip the scale.
In addition, we need to keep our eyes open for projects that present opportunities for us to begin to bring transit mode enhancements to this downtown property.
A project currently under consideration that could bring Amtrak back downtown is the Amtrak/FEC Project. As a part of this intercity rail plan, federal money would be provided to add eight new train stations between Jacksonville and West Palm Beach.
Currently, the application suggests that additional money will be spent to upgrade Jacksonville's "Amshack" off of New Kings Road. If the local leadership can back such an idea, it may be possible to lobby for that money to be spent to bring Amtrak to the Prime Osborn instead of upgrades to an isolated facility. If this can be done, we will then have rail service back downtown and a facility that could be used for both Amtrak and future regional commuter rail.
This is an example of the type of visionary opportunities we need to take advantage of to get our transportation center in use as quickly as possible. To help move this city in the right direction, contact the following email addresses below to encourage everyone to open the door while opportunities continue to knock.
Note: The first two email addresses are maintained by Metro Jacksonville and will automatically forward to the current City Council and Mayors office.
Article by Ennis Davis
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vicupstate
September 18, 2009, 05:56:11 AMGreat article and Superior idea.
Elaine Brown has been the driving force behind doing the Transportation Center to begin with. I would try to get her buy-in first of all.
As the elections gear up, I would ask the mayoral/council candidates if they will publicly support this idea. The degree of their buy-in coud be the basis for a Metro Jacksonville endorsement at the proper time.
The first big hurdle will be getting buy-in on a alternative location for the convention center.
Lucasjj
September 18, 2009, 07:45:41 AMIn all the talks of the convention center moving, are there any suggested places other than the current courthouse property? If not, then what kind of time table would you be looking at to relocate the convention center to the current courthouse property?
BridgeTroll
September 18, 2009, 08:01:44 AMThe most logical spot for the new convention center would be the site of the old courthuse facilities on Bay St. The convention center would or could be connected to the Hyatt. This would spur growth of night clubs and eateries along the Bay street corridor. The Metro Jax plan for the Prime Osborn location has the additional advantage of being located at the confluence of I-10 and I-95. This location should also spur growth for the La Villa area.
This is not just a win-win... it is a win for everybody!
fsu813
September 18, 2009, 08:09:19 AMyup
heights unknown
September 18, 2009, 10:35:23 AMGreat idea(s) and I wholeheartedly agree with both propositions and plans; but question: Could we go on with the renovation of the existing Convention Center back to a Central Terminal before the new Convention Center is built? I would think that we must have a new Convention Center open, or at least a new one in the planning stage and/or on paper before renovation of the old one back to a transportation terminal begins.
Heights Unknown
Steve
September 18, 2009, 10:53:58 AM^not necessarily, as long as it quickly followed. I would question how much of an economic impact the exising facility has, considering that it has been relegated to hosting trade shows and such.
PhanLord
September 18, 2009, 11:32:35 AMHow about moving convention center to south bank (JEA/School Board Area) ?
aaapolito
September 18, 2009, 01:47:53 PMThis city needs to make up its mind as to whether it wants to become a first tier city or remain a middle of the road town with an shaky identity.
ralpho37
September 18, 2009, 02:27:13 PMEveryone might find this interesting...
This morning I sent an e-mail to the City Council asking them to take a look at this article. A few minutes ago I received an e-mail from Councilman John Crescimbeni, asking me to clarify several points.
1) He claims he did not see any plans on the MetroJacksonville website, which seems strange to me considering I provided him with the link.
2) He asked if MetroJacksonville is proposing to "demolish the facility," and asked if that is the case, where the city would host "events requiring extensive exhibition space."
I am not sure why the link wouldn't work, but I will try my best to clarify the points that are made in the article here. At least we've caught their attention! I'll let yall know of any further developments.
ralpho37
September 18, 2009, 03:41:21 PMOkay help me out here people... Mr. Crescimbeni wrote me back and told me that he read the article. Here's what he asked me and I could use some help on what to answer back...
1) Am I to conclude that "refit" for Amtrak is synonymous with "demolition" of existing Convention Center
exhibition space?
2) Where would you propose that events requiring extensive exhibition space be held?" If you are proposing to demolish exhibition space, your tweaking of the JTA Mater Plan had best include an answer to that question as
well - or I wouldn't consider it a viable one.
I assume that the answer to #1 is yes, but he brings up a good point. If I understand correctly, our plan seeks to do away with the convention center space and build a new convention center. This is no small undertaking. What do yall suggest I say back to him? Just a blunt "yes, do away with the convention space and give it to Amtrak/retail?" "Build all of this in phases and construct a new convention center when the existing exhibition space is gone?" Or am I missing a key component of this proposal? Please give me some help here, I'm kind of stuck. Thanks!
stephendare
September 18, 2009, 03:50:43 PM1. partially. Leave the historic parts intact. Instead of the way more expensive ranch style development spend less money with reutilization and a denser use.
2. The 'convention center isnt bringing significant business to the downtown. The Hyatt does more business frankly.
ralpho37
September 18, 2009, 03:52:41 PMThanks, I've also been doing some research on our past articles. I think I can provide him with a good answer.
thelakelander
September 18, 2009, 05:19:44 PMwhen I get to my hotel in DC, i'll provide a detailed answer to this question.
Ocklawaha
September 18, 2009, 10:08:09 PMThe most historic, interesting, and just plain cool spot to send the Convention Center, is to the old Ford Plant on the River, just north of the Matthews Bridge. But one would have to raze almost all of Comodore Point - Stadium Area to allow unobstructed access. The logical spot for a convention center is in the CENTER of the downtown core. Walkable, active, venues, hotels, and our fabulous bridges and Riverwalk by night. Removing the current Courthouse complex, would allow us to nest the Convention Center right on the waterfront, snug to the Hyatt as well as other downtown night spots.
In my first draft of the plan, on the back of a napkin at Hola's Restaurant, we would only preserve a fraction of the current exhibit space, and recycle it along the concourse we have labeled as ,"The Mall". The exhibit hall wouldn't be a complete loss, as we would recycle the Northern most 1/4 of the building as intercity bus terminal, Greyhound, Trailways, Jefferson, Carolina, La Cubana, Auto Bus, could all be attracted to such a facility.
A red flag should go up when the current rendering is shown from McCoys Creek looking Northwest and labeled "Proposed Amtrak Terminal." There are a few adjustments being made for this building a new "Amtrak" wing on the south end of the Terminal. In one swoop we'd wreck the historical facade a national treasure, The overhead concourse blights the visual spaces.
Tropical storm and severe flood damage when Jacksonville Terminals tracks were in the flood plain. About 100 years ago we solved this problem by building a tunnel system, then bringing in millions of cubic yards of fill dirt. Today the combined genius of FDOT, JTA and USDOT as well as AMTRAK, can't see anything wrong with this picture. There is one official group that is on this case though, the FRA has suggested privately that this may be an illegal safety hazard.
Worst of all, to get under the new Lee Street Viaduct the entire rail yard for Amtrak and Commuter Rail would be BELOW the government Flood Plain! One of the "engineer/planners" told me, "Not a problem, we're going to place all of the tracks (3-4 of them only) inside a concrete tub with a flood gate. Just like New Orleans!"
The only REAL solution to the clearance problem with the Lee Street Viaduct is to remove and reconstruct it or engineer a way to raise it 10 to 20 feet.
OCKLAWAHA
9a is my backyard
September 19, 2009, 09:03:30 AMFirst of all, fantastic article. The way it's written and formatted will make it very accessible to those who aren't a part of the MetJax choir that I would imagine makes up most of the readers for the average article.
Unfortunately, I think the city would have to have, a the very least, construction started on a new convention facility before converting the prime osborn. I'm not sure how that works with JTA's current schedule for the transit center, but I imagine it would push things back at least 3-5 years. I agree, I doesn't seem like the prime osborn brings in much business, but we need to prove that factually first (a comparison with the hyatt would be fantastic, especially if we could prove there were enough openings in the hyatt's schedule to accommodate whatever business would be lost in the transition period to a new convention center). Ultimately, the city is going to see every event at the prime osborn as revenue at a time when revenue is tough to come by. Could we make the arguement that a new convention center would bring in additional business? I just don't see city leaders jumping on board a plan that would leave us without a convention center and, as a result, with no way to access the lucritive market of conventions, even if the prime osborn is in itself a hinderance to attracting conventions, which we could argue.
Plus, given how long it took for construction to start on the courthouse, I think we would have to have construction on a new convention center before the city would be willng to release the prime osborn back to it's intended purpose!
thelakelander
September 19, 2009, 09:40:50 AM1) Am I to conclude that "refit" for Amtrak is synonymous with "demolition" of existing Convention Center
exhibition space?
Immediately? No. However, eventually its best for both the convention and transportation center's future to relocate the convention facility to an area that will allow it to grow and succeed.
What you see in both this presentation and JTA's plan is a long range master plan that could take more than a decade to put in place. Certain components, like Amtrak, can come back with the convention center still in tact. However, over time, the convention facility will have to be removed if we want our tax dollars to be utilized in a fashion that creates two efficient public facilities. If we want both to fail and remain substandard, leaving the convention center at the terminal is the way to go.
well - or I wouldn't consider it a viable one.
This idea ties three major city redevelopment sites together. Those sites are the new county courthouse, the existing Bay Street courthouse and the train terminal together. The long term idea is that once the courthouse relocates to LaVilla, the Bay Street property becomes the site of a new improved convention facility. This location provides our convention center will several complementing factors that any center will need as a minimum to be a success. That is:
1. A convention center hotel already in place in the form of the Hyatt.
2. A entertainment district already in place in the form of East Bay Street and the Florida Theater.
3. Connectivity with the urban core in the form of the riverwalk.
4. Restaurant and dining facilities in the form of the Landing.
Building a new or expanding the convention center is much more complex than adding an exhibition hall box. The actual construction of a convention box should be the least of Jacksonville's concerns. Connectivity, synergy and integration with complementing uses to build a compact walkable district should be the highest priority with this issue.
The thing no one discusses is the fact that if the convention center remains in LaVilla, these things will have to be provided and most likely incentivized to put our convention center in a situation in where it can efficiently compete against centers in peer cities that already offer these assets. We can certainly go that route, but why subsidize new complementing development to compete against those who have already invested in these uses within the downtown core?
With that said, once the Prime Osborn is out of the train terminal, you then have the opportunity to completely use that site for what it was originally designed for. That is a compact, well organized intermodal transportation complex.
Keith-N-Jax
September 21, 2009, 11:17:14 PMWell guys and girls sounds great looks great and makes sense, but that's the problem.
mtraininjax
September 21, 2009, 11:36:23 PMLake, you and Ock do know how to kill some trees.
Can we please build the courthouse before throwing around new taxpayer money? With this administration losing money (we know of) and probably (losing money we will never hear of), would it not be best to delay spending with Peyton and his robots? I mean, these guys would not know a plan if it was a 10lb book hitting them in the head.
thelakelander
September 21, 2009, 11:51:48 PMNobody said that a full blown transportation center will be built overnight. However, you have to plan regardless of budget concerns and take advantage of opportunities when they present themselves. If we had planned for viable mass transit options over the last few years, maybe we would have received more stimulus dollars than what came our way. If we can plan before throwing money at our problems, we'll save a lot in the long run.
mtraininjax
September 21, 2009, 11:53:21 PMCorrine Delivers.....!!!!!
thelakelander
September 21, 2009, 11:57:12 PMIf the city were smart, they would push to see if she can back her slogan.
Ocklawaha
September 22, 2009, 12:28:04 AMUsing "smart" and "the city," IE: Jacksonville, in the same sentence could prove to be a disaster, however if WE at MJ set up a nice report, I'd E:Mail it to John Mica, Brown and Crenshaw. This is just the sort of "thing" Mica asked me to send him at his private residence. "Bob, get these people to present some plans, ANYTHING is open for consideration, they're going to spend it anyway so I'd like to see us put Florida in the lead. Send me something, anything."
You JTA types, this is what John told me before that downtown women in transportation meeting. Michael, Scott, James, Mike, Victoria, Steve and Suraya... SEND ME SOMETHING, let's roll... Streetcar Study? Commuter Rail?, BRT?, Skyway? Please, SOMETHING!
OCKLAWAHA
ralpho37
September 24, 2009, 06:16:58 PMHey new update about my conversations with the city council. Believe it or not, I just got an e-mail from none other than Mayor Peyton! He said he forwarded my messages about our transportation center to Bill Killingsworth, director of Planning and Development Department. The article has apparently caught the right people's attention, so hopefully they will at least consider some of our ideas.
buckethead
September 24, 2009, 06:49:15 PMMass transit infrastruture is far from my field of expertise, but I have slept at a few Holiday inn expresses around the country
If the convention center is to be reclaimed (rightfully) as a terminal, the monorail needs to have a stop directly connected to the terminal. Inside preferrably. Passengers with bags need easy access to it, as well as hotels and the new convention center.
For the business travler, a means of avoiding weather (Indy) would prove attractive. So much of our city is so well laid out if we can just use our strengths.
JeffreyS
September 24, 2009, 07:26:59 PMSt. Louis has a train I took from the airport to my convention at the America Center. It was a very impressive way to go. Elevated near the airport and freeways, ground level when it merged with existing rail and subway downtown.
CS Foltz
September 26, 2009, 08:45:47 AMWe need to get the powers that be,ie those in office now, to look objectively at what can be developed now and for the future! The MJ plan not only makes sense but seems to be pretty cost effective. Courthouse not withstanding planning now will save money over the long run and that should be the name of the game! I would not count on Johnny or his minions to be of much help!
ramonher
September 28, 2009, 08:30:32 AMThe main problem with our transportation system is that busses don't go where the public wants to go. And to be totally honest, most of the bus routes are set up for low income people and not the masses. One would think that in order to make money, you take the busses where the money is. My pet peve is that the people mover does not go to the stadium. That, to me should be a priority. Build a new convention center near the stadium near or on the waterfront and use the old convention center as a transportation hub.
tufsu1
September 28, 2009, 08:44:46 AMShouldn't a public transportantion system first be set up for those who have no choice?
This is a dilemna faced by almost every transit agency....look at Gainesville....they have increased ridership 10 fold over the last decade...but that was by investing in UF-oriented routes, some with 7 minute headways....the poor side of town is still primarily served by 30 min or 1 hour headways.