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ACL 1504 is the only remaining original USRA locomotive in essentially as-built condition. The only major items which differ from the original are the headlight, tender trucks and pilot truck wheels. The remainder of the locomotive is in original or in as designed condition, including most of the piping arrangements, tender, cab, domes, driving wheels, coal pusher, non-lifting injectors, trailing truck, running boards and pilot.
The 1504 was classed by the ACL as a P-5-A Pacific passenger engine. It was one of the original 81 USRA 4-6-2As produced, of which the ACL owned 70. The 1504 spent the first twenty years of its long life in passenger service hauling 10 to 12 car trains at speeds of 70 to 80 mph. Some of these famous name trains hauled by the 1504 and the other P-5-A engines were the Miamian, the Florida Special, the Palmetto Limited, the Southland, the South Wind, and the Dixie Flyer. After the advent of diesels on the ACL after World War II, the P-5-A engines were used in fast freight service. 1504 spent its last years in freight service in the Tampa area, and was retired in 1952.
The 1504 was selected for preservation by ACL president Champion Davis and John W. Hawthorne, head of the ACL Mechanical Department. In 1960, after some years in storage, the engine was given a thorough mechanical overhaul and placed on display in front of the then new ACL General Office Building in Jacksonville. The 1504 has since been cosmetically restored and moved to the nearby Prime Osborn Convention Center. The restoration has not altered the engine mechanically in any way, and because the engine has seen no service since its last overhaul, restoration to service at a future date is possible. The Prime Osborn Convention Center was originally the Jacksonville Terminal Co. Depot built in 1919, the same year as the 1504. The 1504 spent much of its life pulling passenger trains in and out of this depot.
1504 Today
Atlantic Coast Line (ACL) engine 1504 is the most original in appearance of the few remaining USRA engines in existence today, while the Baltimore and Ohio (B&O) 4500 was the first USRA locomotive constructed. Both of these engines are excellent examples of the USRA family of locomotive designs. These engines, in common with other USRA locomotive designs, shared many common parts, such as trailing trucks, tenders, domes, boilers and fireboxes.
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Charles Hunter
October 13, 2008, 05:49:50 AMFascinating.
Is there a move to spruce it up by getting rid of the rust and painting it? The black has really faded after all those years in the sun.
fsujax
October 13, 2008, 08:22:01 AMvery cool. I remember when this train used to sit at the CSX Building.
thelakelander
October 13, 2008, 08:30:19 AMIts an injustice to leave this locomotive rusting in the middle of a back parking lot. Perhaps the city should donate it back to CSX or consider moving it to a more prominent downtown location. I would love to see it sit on the thin strip of land between the CSX Building and the riverwalk. At least then, visitors could see it.
fsujax
October 13, 2008, 08:39:27 AMI agree Lake, we need to get some local rail enthusiastis on this. I gurantee they could get something done.
TPC
October 13, 2008, 08:53:54 AMMove this to the pocket park across from the library.
Ocklawaha
October 13, 2008, 09:39:33 AMNot a train y'all. The rule book sez a train is "any locomotive displaying flags (by day) or illuminated marker lights (by night). Don't see any flags, and at night are the marker lights on or off? These are the "little" lights on each side of the silver front of the engine.
Another SHOCK I had when nit-picking this old gal was it appears the smoke stack is wide open! CSX knows better. ACL knew better. SCL knew better. Family lines knew better. Our little "MIKE" in Colombia always has her stack covered. This is a crime against history. They have allowed a lake to form in the smoke box and perhaps some of her fire tubes with might forever ruin this masterpiece. Let's get up there with something, ANYTHING, and cover her.
OCKLAWAHA
Jason
October 13, 2008, 10:04:29 AMOck, climb up and put a trash bag over it!
Ocklawaha
October 13, 2008, 10:45:04 AMThat woud work my friend. Usually some sort of metal 5 gallon bucket, painted to match the engine, sometimes cut down to cover but not take much away from the history. HISTORY? Well, sort of, what most folks don't know, is ANY GOOD STEAM LOCOMOTIVE held in reserve, is either inside or has it's stack covered.
OCKLAWAHA
9a is my backyard
October 13, 2008, 12:36:42 PMIt never ceases to amaze me how much history is in Jax that I have no clue about. I think it would go a long way to help the city if it some how connected them (I was thinking a Freedom Trail-esque connection). Not only would it boost tourism, it might help those who dislike Jax to find a reason to be proud to live here.
dknighton
October 13, 2008, 01:59:20 PMThat's a great deal of the problem in our fair city, and we're all guilty of it.
If we don't remember our history, how can we possibly learn from it, and avoid making the same mistakes again? Or for that matter, learn some of what we've done right and repeat our successes..
Ocklawaha
October 13, 2008, 02:55:18 PMIn the early days of computers and railroads, the national railroad system voted to install a bar code on every piece of equipment. Every few miles the would run through a trackside scanner that allowed "instant updates" about the car and it's speed - location - direction of travel etc. If a shipper called the railroads "FREIGHT CAR TRACING DEPARTMENT" and wanted an update on his carload, the railroad just entered in the data... "WHERE IS"? Rock Island 49320, within seconds a message would sprout from the machine - Northbound, 4 miles South of Green Cove Springs Florida at 0405AM EST 01-05-75. Of course by 1975 the 1504 sat in the middle of the Seaboard Coast Line Parking lot in downtown Jacksonville...sort of like an oversize garden gnome.
So I was up in the SCL (CSX TODAY) building and a friend tells me, "Bob, you gotta see this..." off we go to car tracing. He enters in the search "WHERE IS?": ACL 1504. At first the screen went off, then came back and flashed on and off a few times. Then in giant letters it scrolled past us "LOOK OUT THE WINDOW STUPID!"
I never learned who did this little trick or if they still have a modern version of the same. The car bar code system was ended after a federal mandate and many - many millions of $$ that the railroads coulldn't afford (at the time). Seem's no one thought that when grease, mud, cement, grime, dirt, clays, oils or spray paint got on the label, it couldn't be read. DUMB! A 3 year old could have figured that out but not the FRA. Todays version has RFID built in, so you don't need to see the car for it to talk to you.
OCKLAWAHA
LeoK
October 16, 2008, 04:46:18 PMGreetings.
Rather than put the locomotive on a pedestal again, why not consider restoring it to active service for fan trips and the like? Its flues would have to be closely inspected as well as staybolts and other mechanical parts, including the drivers and side rods. I suspected the engine has not been greased in years.
Would CSX allow it to run on its tracks again? Maybe, if certain conditions are met. Which tracks it could run on would need to be determined. Are there any qualified steam locomotive engineers here? Perhaps. In any event, some old-timers could teach younger folks how to do it.
Leo
Lunican
October 16, 2008, 05:48:35 PMHere is a video about the restoration of Santa Fe 3751. http://sbrhs.org/
Ocklawaha
October 16, 2008, 08:37:55 PMRather than put the locomotive on a pedestal again, why not consider restoring it to active service for fan trips and the like? Its flues would have to be closely inspected as well as staybolts and other mechanical parts, including the drivers and side rods. I suspected the engine has not been greased in years.
Would CSX allow it to run on its tracks again? Maybe, if certain conditions are met. Which tracks it could run on would need to be determined. Are there any qualified steam locomotive engineers here? Perhaps. In any event, some old-timers could teach younger folks how to do it.
Hello team, been chasing my tail all day. Anyway, to answer this question, the Jacksonville Region of the "International Brotherhood Of Live Steamers" (not a union - but a fellowship) has over 100 car carrying members (including me). We have a Live Steam Club, plus a National Railway Historical Society Chapter, plus Railroad and Locomotive Historical Society, plus National Railroad Passenger Association, plus national HQ for The United Rail Alliance, plus an untold number of retired or soon to retire Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers members, PLUS about a zillion retired navy firemen, boiler tenders, steam turbine and other similar techies. In other words, yeah we have um, even the talent to rebuild the darn thing from the ground up... probably more then any city except maybe Chicago...and with the Navy - we still might win.
The bad news is, once upon a time, someone told me 1504 has a crack in the main frame. Charlie Stringfellow former master mechanic and executive of SCL-CSX lives nearby and is (I'm told) still active with his own steam engine. If anyone on earth knew, Charlie would. If it's cracked, chances are it's toast - except for display. It could be restored, but do we (in Florida or the USA) have a mill or shipyard able to cast such a massive piece of steel?
As for trips the only drawback is that steam locomotives set off every "hot-box" detector on the railroad as they roll past.
So except for rare shows, it's not much fun for the operating department to roll her out. Also they "CSX - FEC - NS" will want full "US-YOU-THEM" insurance that covers millions in damages regardless of fault. However not to totally put out this fire, shortlines like the FIRST COAST RAILROAD from Fernandina Beach-Yulee-Kingsland, and the ST. MARYS RR. from Kingsland to St. Marys, are often very receptive to this kind of thing. As they run much slower, and probably DON'T have any electronic detectors.
Ernest Street
October 18, 2008, 12:22:36 PMRemember the 2 year long Bicentenial tour of the Garishly painted "American Freedom train"?...Anyone? It stopped in Jax on nov 20th 1976. I understand they used 3 different Restored Steam Locomotives, and I was fortunate to Visit the Train in Aug 1975.
BridgeTroll
October 18, 2008, 12:46:56 PMhttp://www.freedomtrain.org/
Ocklawaha
October 18, 2008, 07:22:10 PMHey Y'all, not to hijack the thread, but several have asked or commented on the American Freedom Train #2 that made the rounds back in 1976 - throughout America with doccuments and artifacts from America's founding. Millions toured the train as it went on display in various cities and towns all over the nation. Nearly every railroad came out with a Freedom RED-WHITE-BLUE paint colors for a diesel or a set of diesels, and many of these rolled behind the steam locomotives to provide for modern signaling, and electric power through the train. In Jacksonville we got to see the famous streamlined 4449, she rolled into the City on the old Seaboard "S" line from Savannah, and along North Main Street. I photographed her at Inconsternation Creek doing about 70. Today the old "short-cut" on the Seaboard is abandoned along the central Georgia coast, and track has fallen into disrepair. 35 mph is about top speed now - It seems like only yesterday this was the route of Meteors, Comets and Stars.
Here are the "STARS" of the Freedom Train of 1976.
THE ORIGINAL - Southern Pacific #4449, a semi streamlined GS-4 built for speed, she covered about 75% of the entire tour.
Model of the 4449 showing her in the original "DAYLIGHT" colors.
This engine carried the train FIRST through New England, Reading T-1, a 4-8-4, number 2101
In Wyoming-Utah-Colorado and Idaho, Union Pacific put #844 on the point, often with BIG BOY #8444 trailing,
(BIG BOY 4-8-8-4 said to be the largest Steam Locomotive ever built, could whip 60 cars of produce over the Rocky Mountains in Wyoming at 80 mph. and weighs in at over 1 million pounds) While not as big #844 was built to haul long passenger trains consisting of sections for Portland, Oakland and Los Angeles, joined at Salt Lake City for the race east to Omaha.
Texas Pacific, Texas Type #2104 carried the flag through the Southwest. She also has made a journey or two to Jacksonville on other occasions.
Hope this helps sort out the Locomotives.
trey11
November 03, 2008, 09:55:50 PMmaybe someone could get permission to inspect the old gale and see if she could be restored to running condition and get the boiler inspected. or maybe someone has the ACL's records and see if she did have the crack. because some of the books I have said the only reason 1504 was selected for display was because 1504 was in such good shape and in 1959ish she was completly restored cause the the president of the ACL wanted the preserve 1504 for future service ( I dont think they would restore her if she had a crack ) they had to many to pick from at the time, because most of them were being cut up for scrap.. I would donate time to help. and I would love to help repaint her right now!!!!!!! and fix a few of her rest spots before the get to far out of hand
blizz01
November 03, 2008, 11:14:34 PMAs it sits now, is it on "display", or, is it simply stored & forgotten? Are there other items of historical significance in the immediate area (other than the obvious former terminal)? Did it just wind up there originally or, was there some sort of dedication and/or ceremony once the convention center opened? I agree with the prospect of getting it spruced up & in a more conspicuous location - even the pocket park or curiously off of Bay or Laura Street, but dang it I can't erase visions of homeless crawling in & out for cat naps in lieu of kids being able to have something so unique to explore & learn from. Put the statue of the jogger @ the Prime Osborn in it's stead
Charles Hunter
November 04, 2008, 12:18:59 AMIt's original display spot was in front of what is now the CSX building, at the corner of Water and Pearl Streets. The site is now part of the CSX parking lot. It was moved to it's current location when the Convention Center opened. Ock might know if there was any sort of ceremony.
Ocklawaha
November 04, 2008, 12:47:28 AMThe biggest problem with her even if not cracked is going to be that smokebox (the area of the boiler under the smokestack. If we could get permission to open the front end door and take a look inside, we'd have a MUCH better idea of what she needs. In the event that the crack is just a roumor, then with some massive casting and plumbing - pipefitting - welding (blacksmith skills) we could get her back in steam. I also agree that she needs to be moved again, perhaps with streetcar track down Water - Bay past the Terminal to JTA, it would ease the job of getting her somewhere on live track. She needs a shed, something like the locomotive at Jacksonville Beach, on live rail, with a siding that runs into the building from the outside. If she was moved to the front of the lot and a bit west of where she now sits, we could do that on City Property. It would make a great start to a railroad museum in the area of the north side under I-95. As the "S" line is rebuilt, we'd have a natural city owned line to Springfield, where she could stretch her legs on weekends.
I LOVE the smell of coal smoke. Guys, talk all you want about your muscle cars, I'll take 1504 retored anyday. You've not lived until it's a clear day - 99 degrees in the shade, and your in that cab. HELL is 4' away from your seat. The engine is ALIVE, it breathes - pumps puff - chug - superheaters and turbines roar, and when the fireman hits the floor peddle, the gate of hell opens. The heat is searing. Crack the throttle open just as she hits 250 pounds PSI of steam pressure. At 260 the pop valves shoot clouds of steam and it falls back on you as a fine chilling condensed mist. The ground shakes, as you move 1/2 million pounds down two steel ribbons.... AH, Muscle.
OCKLAWAHA
trey11
November 04, 2008, 08:55:37 AMis 1504 owed by the city or the prime osborn , it would not be to hard to start fundrasing for the funds to get her moved to a place close by with a siding where you could start restoring her . heck she less than 100 ft from live track now! give her a good grease job and disconnect her rods ( that way not more damage to her pistons) and move her to a location were the siding runs inside the building that way shes out of the elements and if the public wants to visit they would be more than welcome AND I WOULD DONATE TIME AND ELBOW grease MYSELF TO HELP IN ANY WAY TO GET IT DONE . when I was a little kid in the 70's my dad took me down to the CSX BUILDING to see her . I think we could really do this and make it happen even have a slogan "help restore 1504"
blizz01
November 04, 2008, 10:50:32 AMI love it - ALL ABOARD! HELP RESTORE 1504!
jonesj
June 01, 2009, 09:23:54 AMDoes anyone out there have more photographs of ACL 1504 beyond the 22 pics posted on the Jacksonville City site?
I am restoring and upgrading my Dad's HO-scale USRA Light Pacific he scratch built in about 1950. I'm going all out with regard to to the visible details of the locomotive including inside the cab. I am finding it difficult to get accurate references for the USRA locomotives ... at least in the detail I want.
ACL 1504 is the perfect reference, but I live in CA. I'd like to visit Jacksonville, but at this point that is not likely to occur. The photos on the city site for 1504 are good, but don't cover the entire locomotive. One example is the Steam Turret on top the boiler just in front of the cab. I can't find a photograph or drawing anywhere for that very prominent detail. Also, I can't find any photographs or diagrams for the backhead details of a USRA Light Pacific, or any USRA locomotive.
Anybody want an excuse for the city to let you in to take photos? How about ACL 1504 is a US national treasure worthy of sharing more than 22 photos.
JJ
Ernest Street
June 01, 2009, 11:15:02 AMWe aren't allowed to climb on her so access would have to be asked....maybe a telephoto and a ladder?
Ocklawaha
June 01, 2009, 12:46:18 PMI am restoring and upgrading my Dad's HO-scale USRA Light Pacific he scratch built in about 1950. I'm going all out with regard to to the visible details of the locomotive including inside the cab. I am finding it difficult to get accurate references for the USRA locomotives ... at least in the detail I want.
ACL 1504 is the perfect reference, but I live in CA. I'd like to visit Jacksonville, but at this point that is not likely to occur. The photos on the city site for 1504 are good, but don't cover the entire locomotive. One example is the Steam Turret on top the boiler just in front of the cab. I can't find a photograph or drawing anywhere for that very prominent detail. Also, I can't find any photographs or diagrams for the backhead details of a USRA Light Pacific, or any USRA locomotive.
Anybody want an excuse for the city to let you in to take photos? How about ACL 1504 is a US national treasure worthy of sharing more than 22 photos.
JJ
Welcome to the site jonesj! Try "Live Steam Magazine," also the book "So you want to build a live steam locomotive", at one point either Model Railroader or Trains did an in depth USRA article too.
NON RAILROAD NUTZ: USRA was the United States Railroad Administration, when the railroads were nationalized in WWI (a massive failure BTW) they operated all major rail routes. The best thing to come out of it was engineering, they took the best performance data available from the various railroads on steam locomotives and created drawings for "USRA" designed power. Engine types are known for the wheel arrangements and given names that "very roughly" described their historic roots. In the case of the 1504, it has 4 pilot (guiding) wheels, 6 driving wheels, and 2 larger wheels that support a large firebox and cab. So it's a 4-6-2, that type is called in common railroad parlance a "Pacific Type". The ACL 1504 and the Southern Railways PS-4 class Pacifics, all frequent visitors to our station, were both FAMOUS railroad star players.
One has to wonder, if we pull this off, could we find some little town with a PS-4 rusting away on display and trade them some season tickets to the Jag's or something to get it here?? Be cool to see them side by side, wearing their colors. The railroad equal of a "Harley Hog," and an "Indian Chief," also called "Iron Horses."
OCKLAWAHA
jbroadglide
June 01, 2009, 03:14:18 PMI suggest going to the Atlantic Coastline Seaboard Airline Railroads Historical Society website and ask there. Or search their archives. I'll bet you'll get plenty of responses.
www.aclsal.org
John