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At 28,000 members, the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville is the third largest of the 43,000 churches in the Southern Baptist Convention. Upon the retirement of pastor Jerry Vines in January 2006, Dr. Mac Brunson relocated from the First Baptist Church of Dallas to become the church's new senior pastor.
History
First Baptist Church of Jacksonville was established in July 1838. At the close of the Civil War, an effort was made to separate the Colored and White members but an agreement could not be reached over possession of the property. The opposing factions went to court and the decision was in favor of the Colored members since they were the majority. They retained the name of the Bethel Baptist Church and were the rightful owners of the Church Street property. From the separation, the White members established the Tabernacle Baptist Church, located on the corner Hogan and Church Streets, which was later named First Baptist Church (Downtown)[2]. The church building was destroyed in what has been called the Great Fire of 1901. Dr. Hobson, the senior pastor at the time, went across the country collecting funds for a new sanctuary. The cornerstone for the new sanctuary was laid in February 1903 and was completed the following year. At the time, the sanctuary was State of the Art and could seat approximately 1,500 people. Dr. Hobson remained pastor until 1923. The building was renamed the Hobson Auditorium in his honor.
The church went through many pastors from 1923 to 1940 and accumulated a debt of $125,000, lost a seven-story educational building, and had no facilities to accommodate the growth.
A New Era
In 1940, Dr. Homer Lindsey, Sr. was called to be the new senior pastor of First Baptist Church and completely revitalized the church. By the end of 1943, the church became debt free and continues to be debt free to this day. In 1948, the church built its first educational building debt free. During this time, membership grew as well as contributions which was the main factor in the revitalization process. In 1969, Dr. Lindsey's son Homer Lindsey, Jr. came to First Baptist as Co-pastor. The two Lindseys would lead the church together until Dr' Lindsey, Sr.'s retirement in 1975. The membership of First Baptist grew so much that a new sanctuary was completed in 1976. This sanctuary, the Ruth Lindsey Auditorium, was also State of the Art and could seat 3,500 people. The Miracle of Downtown Jacksonville, as First Baptist has become known as, continued in 1982 when Dr. Jerry Vines became Co-pastor with Dr. Lindsey, Jr. Up until 1988, the church had expanded to nine buildings and membership went from 2,385 to 14,172. In the 1980s, the church created the Pastor's Conference which is a 5 day conference for pastors from across the United States. In 1993, First Baptist had grown so much that a new State of the Art sanctuary was completed that could seat nearly 10,000 people. Dr. Lindsey, Jr. died in 2000 and Dr. Vines continued leading the church forward. In 2002, the Children's Building and Welcome Center was completed which allowed First Baptist to encompass 11 square blocks of Downtown Jacksonville. Dr. Vines retired on February 7, 2006 after serving First Baptist for 23 years. On February 19, 2006 Dr. Mac Brunson was called to be the new pastor. Today, First Baptist Church has a membership of over 29,000 people and an annual budget of $14 million dollars.
In July 2006, ChurchReport.com ranked First Baptist Church of Jacksonville 19th of the 50 Most Influential Churches in the United States.
History
First Baptist Church of Jacksonville was established in July 1838. At the close of the Civil War, an effort was made to separate the Colored and White members but an agreement could not be reached over possession of the property. The opposing factions went to court and the decision was in favor of the Colored members since they were the majority. They retained the name of the Bethel Baptist Church and were the rightful owners of the Church Street property. From the separation, the White members established the Tabernacle Baptist Church, located on the corner Hogan and Church Streets, which was later named First Baptist Church (Downtown)[2]. The church building was destroyed in what has been called the Great Fire of 1901. Dr. Hobson, the senior pastor at the time, went across the country collecting funds for a new sanctuary. The cornerstone for the new sanctuary was laid in February 1903 and was completed the following year. At the time, the sanctuary was State of the Art and could seat approximately 1,500 people. Dr. Hobson remained pastor until 1923. The building was renamed the Hobson Auditorium in his honor.
The church went through many pastors from 1923 to 1940 and accumulated a debt of $125,000, lost a seven-story educational building, and had no facilities to accommodate the growth.
A New Era
In 1940, Dr. Homer Lindsey, Sr. was called to be the new senior pastor of First Baptist Church and completely revitalized the church. By the end of 1943, the church became debt free and continues to be debt free to this day. In 1948, the church built its first educational building debt free. During this time, membership grew as well as contributions which was the main factor in the revitalization process. In 1969, Dr. Lindsey's son Homer Lindsey, Jr. came to First Baptist as Co-pastor. The two Lindseys would lead the church together until Dr' Lindsey, Sr.'s retirement in 1975. The membership of First Baptist grew so much that a new sanctuary was completed in 1976. This sanctuary, the Ruth Lindsey Auditorium, was also State of the Art and could seat 3,500 people. The Miracle of Downtown Jacksonville, as First Baptist has become known as, continued in 1982 when Dr. Jerry Vines became Co-pastor with Dr. Lindsey, Jr. Up until 1988, the church had expanded to nine buildings and membership went from 2,385 to 14,172. In the 1980s, the church created the Pastor's Conference which is a 5 day conference for pastors from across the United States. In 1993, First Baptist had grown so much that a new State of the Art sanctuary was completed that could seat nearly 10,000 people. Dr. Lindsey, Jr. died in 2000 and Dr. Vines continued leading the church forward. In 2002, the Children's Building and Welcome Center was completed which allowed First Baptist to encompass 11 square blocks of Downtown Jacksonville. Dr. Vines retired on February 7, 2006 after serving First Baptist for 23 years. On February 19, 2006 Dr. Mac Brunson was called to be the new pastor. Today, First Baptist Church has a membership of over 29,000 people and an annual budget of $14 million dollars.
In July 2006, ChurchReport.com ranked First Baptist Church of Jacksonville 19th of the 50 Most Influential Churches in the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Baptist_Church_(Jacksonville,_Florida)
Worship Center
Ruth Lindsay Auditorium
From the top of the 6th Grade Building
Children's Building & Welcome Center
Dining Room / Restaurant
Middle School Building and Bookstore
First Baptist Church Timeline
1838 - First Baptist Church established in July 1838 as the third church in Jacksonville.
1892 - The church settled at its present location between Hogan and Church Streets in the heart of the downtown district.
1901 - Church destroyed by the Great Jacksonville Fire of 1901.
1904 - Hobson Auditorium was completed.
1976 - 3,500-seat Ruth Lindsay Auditorium opens.
1986 - Preschool Building opens.
1988 - Sunday School enrollment stands at 14,172, up from 2,385 in 1969.
1993 - 10,000-seat present day auditorium opens.
2002 - Children's Building and Welcome Center opens.
2002 - plans for a state-of-the-art Senior Adult Building announced.
For more information on First Baptist Church Downtown: http://www.fbcjax.com/
Photographs and video by Daniel Herbin and Ennis Davis
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stephendare
March 04, 2010, 09:19:29 AMThis tour of the church was a lot of fun to take.
Much thanks to our guide, John Allen Harret (my partner from Boomtown) who took us behind the scenes and led us through the multi block odyssey that comprises the tour of the massive facilities.
It took a few hours for Ennis, Lunican and I to walk through all the spaces, we were there on a Wednesday Night during services in the Main Auditorium, and its always amazing how much there actually is within the facilities.
It helped tremendously to have someone who knows every nook and cranny of all the buildings.
Also thanks to Trey Brunson for the access. Its a very cool thing opening the Church to the public again.
Jason
March 04, 2010, 11:24:41 AMThe sanctuary and other interiors are very nice. I'm still amazed that they operate debt free. It says a lot about their membership.
Dan B
March 04, 2010, 11:35:12 AMIn the history, you left out some stuff.
http://www.bethelite.org/History.aspx
hightowerlover
March 04, 2010, 11:47:22 AMthe most evil church in the world....echo world orld rld ld d
I went to church here as a teenager and all they tried to do was brainwash me into hating people for not being baptist and trying to get my divorced mother to remarry some fat baptist guy with a combover
Captain Zissou
March 04, 2010, 11:49:18 AMWow. I have been to Saddleback church outside of LA and it always amazes me how much money gets put into these facilities.
TheProfessor
March 04, 2010, 12:22:29 PMSince First Baptist Chruch takes up so much of downtown; can anyone tell me in it's defense, what contributions it makes to the community it sits in?
finehoe
March 04, 2010, 12:23:38 PM"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'" Matthew 19:23-24
"The wealth of the rich is their fortified city; they imagine it an unscalable wall." Proverbs 18:11
"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land." Deuteronomy 15:11
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life." 1 Timothy 6:17-19
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'" Matthew 25:41-45
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." 1 Timothy 6:9-10
"Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all." Proverbs 22:2
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Matthew 6:24
"Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle." Proverbs 23:4-5
"Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death." Proverbs 11:4
"If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures." Job 36:11
"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matthew 16:26
"Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver." Proverbs 8:18, 19
"The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth." Psalm 37:21
"Then [Jesus] said to them, 'Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.'" Luke 12:15
"I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have learned the secret of contentment in every situation, whether it be a full stomach or hunger, plenty or want; for I can do everything God asks me to with the help of Christ who gives me the strength and power." Philippians 4:12-13
hanjin1
March 04, 2010, 12:29:27 PMdang i didn't know there was a basketball court in there. what the heck am i playing with the homies for at liberty street park when i could be playing indoors there.
JaxNative68
March 04, 2010, 03:43:48 PMDid I read the begining of this article correctly and this curch was founded on racist ideals? Doesn't sound very christian to me.
Doctor_K
March 04, 2010, 03:50:27 PMBeing as how there were close to thirty years between its founding and dividing the assets between blacks and whites? No. It wasn't founded on racist principles.
JaxNative68
March 04, 2010, 03:57:40 PMthe truth is out there
Dan B
March 04, 2010, 03:59:12 PMhttp://www.bethelite.org/History.aspx
JaxNative68
March 04, 2010, 04:03:24 PM"First Baptist Church of Jacksonville was established in July 1838. At the close of the Civil War, an effort was made to separate the Colored and White members but an agreement could not be reached over possession of the property. The opposing factions went to court and the decision was in favor of the Colored members since they were the majority. They retained the name of the Bethel Baptist Church and were the rightful owners of the Church Street property. From the separation, the White members established the Tabernacle Baptist Church, located on the corner Hogan and Church Streets, which was later named First Baptist Church (Downtown)"
Doctor_K
March 04, 2010, 04:35:35 PMLoL. they had to establish a new church because the "Colored congregation members" had been ruled in favor of in the division of assets. I still don't see the racist undertones.
Now, if you were questioning the actual need for or cause of the split, that'd be one thing, and might be worth looking into. Then again, since the split came in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, it's not at all surprising that there was a split in the integrated congregation.
However, a recently de-churched congregation seeking to start a new church for themselves hardly qualifies as racism or having racist causes.
stephendare
March 04, 2010, 04:47:14 PMSurprisingly, the church and the denomination, are going through some pretty profound changes.
Its a new age, I think and as the mean old quasi political guys are dying off, there seems to be a new younger generation that is more in line with the values traditionally associated with faith and spirituality.
I wouldnt have said this three years ago.
But my experiences at the pastors convention gave me a lot of food for thought.
In any case, its a huge part of the downtown, one of the largest campuses in the state.
It would be an act of insanity to try and treat it as a separate and inviisible component to the urban core.
stephendare
March 04, 2010, 04:47:45 PMhttp://www.bethelite.org/History.aspx
race baiting as usual I see.
tufsu1
March 04, 2010, 04:57:41 PMStephen...you noted last year (or so) that FBC's membership had declined from 28,000 to nearly 7,000....is it now increasing again?
Dan B
March 04, 2010, 04:58:07 PM^ Just adding the part of the history that MetroJax's article left out. It seems to have been added now, or perhaps I missed it when I first read it.
stephendare
March 04, 2010, 05:02:34 PMI don't actually know, TUFSU. I do know that the membership numbers for both the church as well as the denomination at large reflect shocking losses.
We were there on Wednesday Night during service, and you can see for yourself how few people are in the auditorium. The politics of the past few years has played havoc with church membership across the country.
From what I understand, the fastest growing part of the First Baptist ministry is one which caters to a very untraditional kind of church member.
Doctor_K
March 04, 2010, 05:04:46 PMMuch-needed paradigm shift?
stephendare
March 04, 2010, 05:08:00 PMIt seems like it.
I think the country will be pretty amazed at the outcome of this upcoming Baptist Convention.
Here is a link to the liveblog that I did of the pastors conference:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,7384.0.html
PJparker
March 04, 2010, 06:10:48 PM"Since First Baptist Chruch takes up so much of downtown; can anyone tell me in it's defense, what contributions it makes to the community it sits in?"
I would like to know that also. I see on their website giving to the Baptist ministry and missionary efforts, but what about the homeless, the helpless and the sick?
heights unknown
March 04, 2010, 07:50:43 PMAs I mentioned in another thread regarding this Church, when I was in the Navy, I once experienced financial hardship and went to First Baptist Church for help; at the time I was tithing to them, I wasn't a member mind you, but was tithing to them. When I went to the person that could help, she looked at me like I was a cancerous sore, didn't even investigate into my situation, and told me that they couldn't help with such situations. I didn't get bitter, but I did quit tithing to that Church. That was in the past.
Great Church and I attended a few times while living in Jacksonville though it was not my membership Church. In the early 70's, there were very few black members, and then into the 80's the black membership rose significantly. I think they now have a healthy black membership.
It's kind of weird how the two Lindsey's died within days of each other. I get the feeling that this was an act of God; maybe Homer was trying to keep all out power of pastoral leadership away from Doctor Vines; this is my best guess and assessment; him dying suddenly and then his Son dies suddenly right after him. No one will ever tell for sure what was going on but it appeared that there was a power tug of war going on between Homer Linsey and Jerry Vines, moreso on the side of Doctor Lindsey.
Only God Knows.
"HU"
thelakelander
March 04, 2010, 07:54:50 PMTo me it seems the church has too much property. While on the tour, it was clear the amount of space in possession was developed for a much larger congregation. Imo, the church should consider consolidating many of the programs it has spread out over 11 blocks and leasing out or selling the additional left over space.
heights unknown
March 04, 2010, 07:56:29 PMStephendare said: "Its a new age, I think and as the mean old quasi political guys are dying off, there seems to be a new younger generation that is more in line with the values traditionally associated with faith and spirituality."
I don't know what "values traditionally associated with faith and spirituality" means. I hope they don't throw God and the Bible out the window and embrace worldly views along with new age and worldly spiritualism practices. This would be a big mistake (my opinion and I won't elaborate on it so please don't ask).
"HU"
sheclown
March 04, 2010, 08:09:25 PMdebt free, amazing.
stephendare
March 04, 2010, 08:12:26 PMHU. (huh?)
Faith and Spirituality don't seem like they need an explanation, Pvt me if you must or read the link provided. (The pastor offered you a ticket to the conference, if you remember). Your fear seems a bit hysterical. It is also not showing any signs of becoming a car dealership or a tool and dye factory either.
You did post your experience in the other thread as well. It sounds like you need to come to some internal healing for the experience. Im not sure how you should do that, but perhaps contacting the pastor would be a great start.
coredumped
March 04, 2010, 08:54:59 PMWhen I went on the church tour, this church was the only one with armed security:
hansbronson
March 04, 2010, 09:33:43 PMI've been a member of First Baptist since Nov. of 93 and have seen alot of changes over the past 16 years. Under Dr. Lindsay the church grew at a rapid pace. The annual Pastors Conference in Feb. was allways packed out to the point that they had an overflow location in the Ruth Lindsay Auditorium. Dr. Lindsay knew that he was called to be a Pastor, thats why unless he was sick he was allways in the pulpit. Every Sunday in the bulletin the amount of money given to the church in tithes and offerings was allways published. Now jump to 2010. The church is experiencing a decline in attendance and tithes and offerings. Members have no ideal how much money was given for the chest of Joash or Lottie Moon offering. Alot of things are kept secret from the members now. Most of you know about what the church did to the blogger, but some of you might not know that this Pastor was asked to be on a committee about crime but the Times-Union reported that Brunson only showed up for 2 out of the 8 meetings and just in the last 2 months the Times-Union did a series on downtown and some of the churches that are downtown and Brunson declinded to be interviewed for the story. I'm sorry to say but this preacher has not united the church but has divided it. This preacher has been out of the pulpit more in his 4 years here than both Drs. Lindsay and Vines combined during the last 16 years. Brunson has a tendency to take alot of "mission trips" overseas, this month his "mission trip" is to the Danube. Ain't GOD good.
uga_jax
March 04, 2010, 10:11:20 PMCoredumped: I was going to mention about their security. Yes, all security persons carry handguns. I work at a hospital and even our own security can't carry any type of weapon. The number of loco folks who enter EDs at area hospitals would outnumber those entering religious establishments.
Growing up in the Protestant Bible belt of Middle GA, it always seemed that every 10 years or so a Baptist congregation will split on some issue within the church resulting in the party that opposes leaving and starting their own Baptist church in town. I swear, I see more Baptist churches in the South than any other denomination. I guess I have to give my background for making a post on this topic. I grew up First Methodist and converted to Catholicism before marriage.
fsujax
March 05, 2010, 09:54:44 AMNice story. I love my church. Thanks for sharing. Don't forget the church also has a South Campus located in Ponte Vedra, so many members who use to come Downtown now go to the south campus, the church is still doing just fine. Wednesday night attendance is no where near what Sunday morning attendance is.
heights unknown
March 05, 2010, 10:32:50 AMFaith and Spirituality don't seem like they need an explanation, Pvt me if you must or read the link provided. (The pastor offered you a ticket to the conference, if you remember). Your fear seems a bit hysterical. It is also not showing any signs of becoming a car dealership or a tool and dye factory either.
You did post your experience in the other thread as well. It sounds like you need to come to some internal healing for the experience. Im not sure how you should do that, but perhaps contacting the pastor would be a great start.
I wasn't dissing the Church Stephendare, just reposting in case someone missed it. I did say "that was back then," which means it's all past now and I've moved on (maybe I should have explained).
Quit judging (judging Stephen); no, I don't need healing; I've forgiven but not totally forgot because if you are a christian, you will help with no strings attached. I understand the offer that was made and am appreciative of that, that one member reached out for so called "healing" on my part and gratitude on his part. That doesn't mean ALL of the Church is the same as he, but, I will treat all as though they are like him if I ever meet them.
I don't need to private you Stephen; maybe I should have explained myself better; these days faith and spirituality, in general, have a different meaning; it can mean new age, satanism, or something else. If you're talking faith and spirituality relative to God and Christ, then I agree and forgive me.
Drink a cup of coffee Stephen.
"HU"
stephendare
March 05, 2010, 10:35:40 AMWell considering you have taken every opportunity to regurgitate your experience with the one person, as an outsider, it certainly seems like its still bothering you.
When something still hurts, you should try and heal it man.
heights unknown
March 05, 2010, 10:46:12 AMWhen something still hurts, you should try and heal it man.
Well you're wrong Stephen; yeah "IT SEEMS" as you say, and seems, and seems. And it has HEALED MAN. So please sir let's drop the subject, eat your grits, and drink some coffee. I can post my feelings as often as I wish (if I don't hurt or disrespect anyone). I don't think I stepped on First Baptist's toes, and if I did, then they need healing; it was you whose toes I think I stepped on. So let's please drop this subject. Thank you MAN.
"HU"
sutajax
March 05, 2010, 10:48:06 AMI worked for the FBCJAX security for a while and I can tell you most assuredly they do not carry handguns, some that have had special training have defensive weapons like ASP batons or pepper spray but no one is armed. There are several JSO officers that work officially sanctioned by the Sheriffs Office and are paid by the church to provide traffic and security when the church is having services or programs and as such are armed law enforcement officers, but employees of FBCJAX are not.
SJ
heights unknown
March 05, 2010, 10:49:35 AMBy the way, I was born in Jacksonville, lived in Jacksonville as a child, lived in Jacksonville over 70% of my 20 year Naval Career, and left Jacksonville in 1995; I'm hardly an outsider. I know Jacksonville like the back of my hand (it's changed some but not by much). I still visit each year sometimes more than twice. Thanks.
"HU"
stephendare
March 05, 2010, 10:49:55 AMWhen something still hurts, you should try and heal it man.
Well you're wrong Stephen; yeah "IT SEEMS" as you say, and seems, and seems. And it has HEALED MAN. So please sir let's drop the subject, eat your grits, and drink some coffee. I can post my feelings as often as I wish (if I don't hurt or disrespect anyone). I don't think I stepped on First Baptist's toes, and if I did, then they need healing; it was you whose toes I think I stepped on. So let's please drop this subject. Thank you MAN.
"HU"
dropping this seems to be taking a whole lot of posting about it. Even on an architectural photo essay.
stephendare
March 05, 2010, 10:55:17 AMI worked for the FBCJAX security for a while and I can tell you most assuredly they do not carry handguns, some that have had special training have defensive weapons like ASP batons or pepper spray but no one is armed. There are several JSO officers that work officially sanctioned by the Sheriffs Office and are paid by the church to provide traffic and security when the church is having services or programs and as such are armed law enforcement officers, but employees of FBCJAX are not.
SJ
Thanks for the clarification, suta.
coredumped
March 05, 2010, 11:31:12 AMThat picture wasn't a statement on the church or what they do (in fact I know little about it), but just an observation. I didn't see any other churches on the tour with security. Perhaps they need it, there are a lot of nuts (on both sides) out there:)
finehoe
March 05, 2010, 11:49:27 AMDoes this mean all of that property is off the tax rolls?
stephendare
March 05, 2010, 11:51:36 AMyes, along with the entire campus of FSCJ, most of Hemming Parks surrounding buildings, most of the Riverfront, and all of the other churches and nonprofits downtown.
Doctor_K
March 05, 2010, 11:54:08 AMNo wonder the city's got a budget shortfall! Practically nothing pays taxes downtown! Poor planning.
fsujax
March 05, 2010, 12:13:11 PMWrong, it is my understanding the church pays property tax on all the garages and maybe even the bookstore. Yes, a bookstore that is many times overlooked!
PJparker
March 05, 2010, 01:59:43 PMWhat does the FBC do for the City of Jacksonville? I keep asking this question and have never seen a response. Do they sponsor a homeless shelter? A meals program? A free or low-cost health clinic? A jobs program? A rehab program for addictions or outreach to criminals to turn their lives around? Anything? Does anyone know?
tufsu1
March 05, 2010, 02:20:01 PMthis is true all over the state...government and non-profits (like portions of churches) don't pay property taxes...that's why Tallahassee has to charge extra for utilities to make up the shortfall of having the most valuable property (downtown area) off the tax rolls.
buckethead
March 05, 2010, 02:22:56 PMThey help ensure souls shan't reach the fiery inferno due to premarital physical contact, dancing, or practicing any other religion.
JaxNative68
March 05, 2010, 05:25:46 PMWhen something still hurts, you should try and heal it man.
Are you sure you're still an outsider? It sounds like you may have drank some of their Kool-aid on your tour.
Shwaz
March 05, 2010, 05:39:24 PMStephen how can be so in favor of FBC and all the business they've held down and shut down across the urban core... but so against a group like SPAR that does this on a much smaller scale?
We're not talking about car washes and halfway houses either... but night life and cultural destinations that urban core so desperately needed.
stephendare
March 06, 2010, 01:24:01 AMWe're not talking about car washes and halfway houses either... but night life and cultural destinations that urban core so desperately needed.
I try to be fair, Schwaz. And I have more reason than most people on this forum may suspect to look for the worst in First Baptist, but the reputation that First Baptist has in regards to 'shutting down businesses' is an undeserved one.
I have opened multiple businesses since 1987 within stone's throw of the church, and have featured everything from naked poetry, interpretive dances re enacting abortion, a vampire improv performance that featured a renegade pope being beaten to death with a dildo by a lesbian bishop, and just about anything you can think of and never once been bothered by "the baptists'.
There are bad people who shut down merchants in town.
But aside from boycotting establishments that they wouldnt shop in anyways, I have yet to see First Baptist protest or prevent someone else from opening or operating their shops.
On the other hand, Ive also been warned about them for decades and had people try and shut me down because they feared that they would piss of 'the baptists' if they didnt.
This is by no means an endorsement of the kind of narrow minded thinking that pisses people off so much, it irritates me just as vividly.
Its just that their reputation is out of whack with their actual might.
Much more likely to get it up the kiester from trinity baptist anyways.
braeburn
March 06, 2010, 04:51:09 AMNaked Poetry
vicupstate
March 06, 2010, 09:50:12 AMIs the poetry naked or the poet?
Stephen would be in a better position to say than I, but I agree that the 'FBC shuts down everything before it can even open' is an urban legend/myth. I have seen no evidence of it. I think it is merely a convenient excuse that needs to fall by the wayside for good.
FBC shouldn't be singled out either. ALL churches are tax-exempt, and if they do pay property taxes on the garages, that speaks well of them. Having a nice facility (within reason) shouldn't be a point of shame. In their eyes, and the eyes of many, it is the house of God.
I agree that charity begins at home, but the poor abroad are much worse off than American poor, and with fewer opportunities to change their plight.
I was borned and raised Southern Baptist but am Episcopal now, just as disclosure.
jandar
March 06, 2010, 10:20:49 AMNo one wants to answer this, because they want to assume that FBC does community services.
Go ask the homeless though how hard it is for them to attend service.
JaxNative68
March 06, 2010, 11:12:33 AMStephen: I think Shwaz was refering to all the liquor licenses that FBC was rumored to have bought and the old zoning ordinances that keep establishments (i.e. Bars) within so many feet of there property.
And please tell me you weren't the naked one on stage!
finehoe
March 06, 2010, 11:58:03 AMA convenient excuse for what?
stjr
March 06, 2010, 11:59:45 AMRight or wrong, I think that when the public sees, by example, the lengths that FBC went to unveil and pursue the disgruntled blogger in their midst, it "enhances" the understanding by outsiders that they will pursue their interests above and beyond the pale.
I have no idea what is real and what isn't about FBC for the most part, but, if they care at all what others think (maybe they don't), they could, perhaps, be more engaging of the community at large and transparent with respect to their interests. This might help to remove the shroud of mystery that surrounds their inner workings and motivations so others don't define them and to enhance their standing with non-members.
stephendare
March 06, 2010, 12:17:05 PMAnd please tell me you weren't the naked one on stage!
Ive tried to get to the bottom of the liquor liscense rumor several times over the years, and all the rumors seem to go back to an event that happened in the 70s (40 years ago) when the liquor liscenses were actually owned and leased out by one of the Baptist preachers.
Apparently the pastor was leasing the liscenses (at a great profit) to strip bars on main street, and when threatened with exposure, simply pulled all the liscenses and took credit for 'cleaning the adult industry' up.
The Church Zoning for liquor liscenses goes back a pretty long way, long before the era of First Baptist.
It was a precondition of liscensing in Florida after the Repeal of Prohibition. (along with schools and residential neighborhoods)
And 23 year old me was just fine in the nude, JaxNative. I spent a good amount of productive time without any clothes at all in my youth.
stephendare
March 06, 2010, 12:19:15 PMA convenient excuse for what?
For why things never work. In my career, ive usually found that the weak willed and easily frightened arts establishment was usually way more self censoring than anything else, however.
JaxNative68
March 06, 2010, 12:56:14 PMGlad to hear the public nudity was light years ago! The physical difference between the 23 year old me and the me of today . . . Sorry I was shuttering to much to finish the sentence.
ubben
March 07, 2010, 10:40:05 PMGround zero for homophobia and intolerance. FBC is a shameful black eye on the city of Jacksonville.
braeburn
March 08, 2010, 01:14:35 AMHomophobia and intolerance are an integral part of several religious institutions, not just FBC.
Ocklawaha
March 08, 2010, 01:14:55 AMI'm always amazed at how much the presence of a church full of worshipers disturbs some people. Most have probably never considered why in a nation of freedom of worship, a church like First Baptist would become so large in the first place... Go ahead... try it...
Need some help?
Give Up?
Because they are in tune with what the majority of worshipers of any given faith believe. Rarely if ever will one see a mega-church with narrow isolated views. This is not to say that a case may or may not be made in scriptures for labeling certain things as sin, and helping in certain ways, or eating certain foods, or other particular beliefs, but the church of hate is thankfully very small. There is also a huge gulf between refusing to accept or practice that which is percieved as sin and acceptance of those who might be trapped in it's practice. That I consider Jesus as a God of Love, was a learned concept directly from the Southern Baptist Churches.
Did you know that "Miss Nude USA" was a member of FBC JAX? After winning her title, she ran into a lot of personal problems and decided to try church as a last resort. FBC JAX was the church, under Lindsey at the time, that opened their doors and hearts for her, no strings attached.
Did you know that about 1/2 of Guthrie, territorial capitol of Oklahoma, is taken up and/or owned by the Masonic Lodge? The largest Masonic Temple in the USA is there, and it is massive. A building that started out to be the state capitol, until the state charter was stolen one night by some hard riding cowboy raiders from Oklahoma City. There are also two sprawling Masonic Home properties in Guthrie, and I hear that they even have meetings in those buildings! Family activities! Charitable events! Serve pancake suppers! Help the sick! But you know what I've never heard? I've never heard anyone in Guthrie talking about how horrible it is that such people are in their downtown!
An Ocklaism...
"Those demanding equality and acceptance in all things would be best served by employing acceptance within an equality of love in their own lives..." OCK
OCKLAWAHA
stephendare
March 08, 2010, 01:23:07 AMHave you been to the church, ubben?
Jason
March 08, 2010, 10:26:08 AMThat is a loaded question PJ. The church and its membership is involved in many things. I'm not a member and can't speak to what FBC as a whole is in sponsorship of, but there are gobs of ministries, programs, and charities they provide. Check out the website http://www.fbcjax.com/ and see for yourself. Click the ministries, calendar, and missions tabs and you'll see the many things the church has to offer. The missions trips sponsored by this church are huge and I've heard of LOTS of donation money being used to fund the trips and to help those far away. They also work with other churches in the area (my church included) to combine forces for ministries and missions.
Churches, especially FBC, are in buisness to help people BUT the underlying message is to spread the word of God through giving that help.
finehoe
March 08, 2010, 11:36:19 AMI'm always amazed at how much the presence of a church full of worshipers disturbs some people.
Maybe it's because all too often those "worshipers" want to impose their views and values on everyone else. I'm amazed at how many religionists don't seem to understand that freedom of worship also includes the freedom NOT to participate in a religion.
This cuts both ways. Seeing how the membership has dropped precipitously over the last few years certainly says something about how people view their positions as well.
PJparker
March 10, 2010, 09:56:11 PMThat is a loaded question PJ. The church and its membership is involved in many things. I'm not a member and can't speak to what FBC as a whole is in sponsorship of, but there are gobs of ministries, programs, and charities they provide. Check out the website http://www.fbcjax.com/ and see for yourself. Click the ministries, calendar, and missions tabs and you'll see the many things the church has to offer. The missions trips sponsored by this church are huge and I've heard of LOTS of donation money being used to fund the trips and to help those far away. They also work with other churches in the area (my church included) to combine forces for ministries and missions.
Churches, especially FBC, are in buisness to help people BUT the underlying message is to spread the word of God through giving that help.
Jason, I have been to their website, and I did look at the ministries page. I see that they help people who are members of the church, and they travel the world to teach. I do not see any city missions.
Jason
March 11, 2010, 08:48:21 AMThe homepage mentions a missions trip to Argentina and they are apprently involved in Haiti disaster relief and have sent over volunteers. That's about all the info I have and would rather an actual member speak to the other church offerings to its membership and community.
fsujax
March 11, 2010, 09:39:48 AMThe church sponsors mission trips all over the world. I know for fact because I have donated to the causes. After the Haiti earthquake donations were taken and a team is being assembled to go down to Haiti and help with the recovery. Anytime there is a mega disaster the church always takes up money and usually sends teams of people to help with any recovery efforts. The church also sends money and members to the various shelters around town to help them as well. The church has a very nice bookstore and serves lunch Tues-Thus all open to the public. There are also members who go out into the lowest income neighborhoods in Jacksonville and hold vacation Bible School and backyard Sunday School classes. The church also brings in hundreds of low income Jacksonville children at Christmas time, we serve them lunch, put on a Christmas play and then send them out with all kinds of presents, that are wrapped! I know because I volunteer at these events. It doesn't matter how much good the church does, there will always be those who look down on the church. These are only a few examples of some of what the church does for the community.
jandar
March 11, 2010, 12:32:42 PMJust like the good deeds of its members are attributed to the church, so too are the actions of its members.
finehoe
March 11, 2010, 01:57:44 PMSure it wasn't assembled to kidnap Haitian children?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7160065/US-Baptists-charged-with-kidnapping-Haitian-children.html
Jason
March 11, 2010, 02:39:10 PMWell seeing that the accused kidnappers were from Idaho, I doubt FBC members had anything to do with it.
finehoe
March 11, 2010, 03:04:30 PMThose are just the ones who were caught.
stephendare
March 11, 2010, 03:05:58 PMAnd please, people. This article is more about how to continue the very important project of making Laura Street a vibrant corridor.
It has the potential to connect Downtown and Springfield in a way that will take Main Street years to catch up to.
Instead of having to rebuild hundreds of millions of dollars of demolished structures, Laura Street is already dense with buildings. Connecting Springfield, Hogans Creek, Karpeles, the Landing and all the facilities of Laura Street would be an amazing coup.
PJparker
March 30, 2010, 06:52:41 PMRiversideLoki
March 31, 2010, 10:02:49 AMCall him bitter, call him cynical, but darned if Watchdog doesn't run the most enlightening blog.
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/
Crap like all of the backstabbing, doublespeak, and underhandedness of the First Baptist Church is part of the reason I'm a proud, cynical and jaded atheist. (Mind you, I was also raised Catholic, so that's about 90% of it right there.)
buckethead
March 31, 2010, 10:32:11 AMhttp://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/
Crap like all of the backstabbing, doublespeak, and underhandedness of the First Baptist Church is part of the reason I'm a proud, cynical and jaded atheist. (Mind you, I was also raised Catholic, so that's about 90% of it right there.)
My name is buckethead and I'm a recovering cathaholic.
*group responds:* Welcome!
RiversideLoki
March 31, 2010, 11:03:47 AMDid you give it up for Lent (permanently) like I did?
Bill Ectric
April 01, 2010, 09:35:39 AMThe pictures are beautiful.
I do think it's commendable that First Baptist operates debt free. As for the amount of property or money they have, that's all relative. Compared to some churches, FBC is poor; compared to others, they are rich. I don't think you can judge a church or a person by how much money they have or don't have.
I could never go to FBC due to certain beliefs they have, which I don't share. If I were to go to church at all, it would probably be Unitarian Universalist.
Michele
May 05, 2010, 05:05:13 PMThat is a loaded question PJ. The church and its membership is involved in many things. I'm not a member and can't speak to what FBC as a whole is in sponsorship of, but there are gobs of ministries, programs, and charities they provide. Check out the website http://www.fbcjax.com/ and see for yourself. Click the ministries, calendar, and missions tabs and you'll see the many things the church has to offer. The missions trips sponsored by this church are huge and I've heard of LOTS of donation money being used to fund the trips and to help those far away. They also work with other churches in the area (my church included) to combine forces for ministries and missions.
Churches, especially FBC, are in buisness to help people BUT the underlying message is to spread the word of God through giving that help.
Jason, I have been to their website, and I did look at the ministries page. I see that they help people who are members of the church, and they travel the world to teach. I do not see any city missions.
When The City Rescue Mission was founded, that is the homeless shelter that is around the corner from the church, FBCJ was very much involved in founding of it. As a teen and college student, we would go and sing at Sunday night services that were held there, plus give a hand at dinner time on different nights. Now I can't tell you about if the church is still involved with the mission, as I now live in Georgia, but back when I was going to church there, it was very much involved with providing funds, volunteers, etc to the mission.
Andy
May 06, 2010, 11:52:26 AMFirst Baptist is neither the abominable monster some of you think, nor the epicenter of love that they would have us believe. I went there for years, and my parents still watch the services. It HAS turned a bit of a new leaf, it is more accepting than ever. But it's still got a lot of old fashioned members and a lot of people that were raised as racists/homophobes etc. That's not the structure's reason for being though, and in all of the services and meetings and musicals I have been a part of there, never once have I heard (nor would I ever expect to hear) anyone say "homosexuals/black people are the worst kinds of sinners who are going to hell, and also let's all hate them." Just because that element is there does not leave the church nonredeemable.
I think it's a more fair point to look at their works (ye mighty and despair) and note that their programs aren't doing all they can. I would think a church that could open a private school could open a staffed homeless shelter or a halfway house. I don't care if they minister to the people they help, so long as they help. (which, by the way, is what they WILL do, no matter what you think about 'pushing your religion' on people. Christians will/should minister because it is their 'calling.')
I know this is all slightly off topic but Ive got a lot of pent up frustration both in offense from FBC and defense of FBC.
stephendare
May 06, 2010, 11:56:25 AMI think it's a more fair point to look at their works (ye mighty and despair) and note that their programs aren't doing all they can. I would think a church that could open a private school could open a staffed homeless shelter or a halfway house. I don't care if they minister to the people they help, so long as they help. (which, by the way, is what they WILL do, no matter what you think about 'pushing your religion' on people. Christians will/should minister because it is their 'calling.')
I know this is all slightly off topic but Ive got a lot of pent up frustration both in offense from FBC and defense of FBC.
great points Andy!