At the corner of 7th and Main lies a pile of rotten wood. To most passing by, it simply appears to be typical construction debris, but upon closer inspection you will notice features that make this pile of wood fairly significant.
Most likely not headed for a museum, this is all that remains of the Jacksonville Streetcar system.
The marks left by the tie plates and spikes are still visible.
Original spikes still driven into the ties.
A spike from the Jacksonville Streetcar System remains intact after over 100 years in the ground.
Today, the streetcars are long gone and public transit has been relegated to JTA buses following circuitous loops through downtown. JTA has completed a streetcar study which recommends a line on Main Street, but currently there is no funding or construction timeline.
In 1910, the Main Street (originally Pine Street) line had been double tracked. The streetcar network had grown to 40 miles of track and the system had a universal transfer system in place
Springfield's Main Street in 1900.
For more information: Ruins of Jacksonville: The Streetcar System
Photos by Daniel Herbin
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thelakelander
October 13, 2009, 06:27:10 AMRIP, JTC. Would have liked to see them bring the tracks back since we just had to have medians.
vicupstate
October 13, 2009, 08:16:04 AMDOT should at least sell those ties. I'm sure Ocklawaha would pay a tide sum to use them as the focal point of his home decor.
BridgeTroll
October 13, 2009, 08:25:42 AMImagine... if you will... that this was actually a Streetcar project.
It really is too bad they tore all this up so they could block access to businesses and plant grass and trees...
thelakelander
October 13, 2009, 08:38:38 AMMaybe if we're lucky, we can one day rip those shrubs and concrete curbs up and install tracks. From the image above, it definitely looks wide enough to put back track without taking out lanes or parallel parking.
sheclown
October 13, 2009, 08:54:34 AMSt. Mary's, in Springfield, used old lumber from the road work in the 60s to build a chapel. I have photos of the beautiful wood. Frank Deering went to the city and asked for the wood from the road project and turned it into to a stunning sanctuary.
fsu813
October 13, 2009, 11:38:47 AMForgive me for not remembering, as i'm sure it's been eferneced many times, but......
How much would it cost to put in & maintain a street care system in the urban core of neighborhoods?
It's a rough estimate, i know.
Thanks!
thelakelander
October 13, 2009, 11:56:38 AMAccording the the TPO's cost feasible plan:
$14.0 million - Streetcar East (DT Jax to Jax Municipal Stadium)
$42.0 million - Streetcar North (DT Jax to Springfield "Shands")
$35.0 million - Streetcar West (DT Jax to Five Points)
$14.0 million - Streetcar West 2 (Five Points to King Street)
http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/envision2035/docs/9-30-09/Proposed%20Cost%20Feasible_Plan_List_and_Map-update.pdf
As for annual operations costs, its a crap shoot. It really depends on what type of streetcar service, who's operating it, the extent of infrastructure built and the frequency. In other words it could be anywhere as low as $2-$4 million a year to +$10 million. To determine, Jax needs to committ to the idea and work to develop what works best for the community and what it can afford.
JeffreyS
October 13, 2009, 12:05:32 PMIf we really have 100million from bjp we should go streetcars first. Any matching funds from the state or feds and add small expansion to the skyway or piggyback Amtraks improvements towards commuter rail.
fsu813
October 13, 2009, 12:15:56 PMi foresee a phase in
BridgeTroll
October 13, 2009, 12:27:06 PMAwesome! After ripping up main street for what seems like a decade... a few years from now they may tear it all up again and lay tracks. I guess it would mean "job creation" if nothing else...
JeffreyS
October 13, 2009, 12:49:27 PMThey have repeatedly put in and pulled out medians on main for fifty years.
BridgeTroll
October 13, 2009, 12:56:48 PMThe jobs created by these projects seem to come at the expense of businesses actually being able to prosper on Main St.
konstantconsumer
October 13, 2009, 02:24:33 PMlove the new divided lane. now, when leave the house, i can't turn left at 5th and main. thanks jacksonville.
fsujax
October 13, 2009, 02:29:05 PMthanks FDOT.
fsu813
October 13, 2009, 04:42:57 PMwell, it's a helluva lot better than it was before. thank goodness for that.
Ocklawaha
October 13, 2009, 04:54:46 PMOkay y'all, no I didn't escape with any of the railroad ties, although a dozen or so might make a cool planter, since I love gardening anyway... What I did get away with was 5 or 6 VERY unusual spikes. These are regulation size, but have a spiral thread something like one-way nails, or sheet rock screws. Those ties seem to have been Heart of Cypress, which means almost no rot, and a bug free life of 100 years or so. It's also something nearly impossible to get today, as all of our timber, even stjrs desired Davis Park site, is second and third growth. We just don't have the giants these ties came out of anymore. Anyway, the spikes are quite cool and are mixed in with other regular spikes, if you can get by the pile, and want a unique piece of JTCO, better bring some big crow bars, and tools, or a saws all, maybe some K-4.
For the record the only spikes I collect are the odd ones, weird shapes, lengths, styles and such, usually painting a small white surface on one side and labeling the details with a fine point marker. Uh, my golden one did NOT get painted! But it is registered with BOA. Came from the completion of the Southern Pacific mainline between Los Angeles and the Bay Area. My most prized ones are from the Florida Railroad, a 2' foot gauge line at Lauraville, the Ocklawaha Valley RR at Fort McCOy, and of course the weird JTCO one. Shame of it is, you KNOW that the JTCO laid a gold spike too~! somewhere... No they didn't leave them in the ground, but I wonder where it or they went? Henry Plant had a big interest in it and so did Mr. ingles who passed away a couple of years ago in Penny Farms.
CHEERS!
OCKLAWAHA
ac
October 13, 2009, 05:05:21 PMMidway
October 13, 2009, 05:30:26 PMWere it not for Metrojacksonville, another piece of Jacksonville history would pass into oblivion unnoticed.
stjr
October 13, 2009, 09:37:55 PMFor the record the only spikes I collect are the odd ones, weird shapes, lengths, styles and such, usually painting a small white surface on one side and labeling the details with a fine point marker. Uh, my golden one did NOT get painted! But it is registered with BOA. Came from the completion of the Southern Pacific mainline between Los Angeles and the Bay Area. My most prized ones are from the Florida Railroad, a 2' foot gauge line at Lauraville, the Ocklawaha Valley RR at Fort McCOy, and of course the weird JTCO one. Shame of it is, you KNOW that the JTCO laid a gold spike too~! somewhere... No they didn't leave them in the ground, but I wonder where it or they went? Henry Plant had a big interest in it and so did Mr. ingles who passed away a couple of years ago in Penny Farms.
OK, Ock, I have to ask since you brought it up. I have some "old" RR spikes salvaged from an very old Jax area RR site. They are about 6 inches long, heads about 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" across with shafts about 1/2" square. Metal looks like it was hand wrought as each is a little different in character/size, especially the heads. (Although, time may have been a factor, it doesn't seem that way to me.) Two heads are roughly oval in shape but one is 50% to 100% larger than the other. A third head is 6 sided, but oval in shape, not hexagonal. Tell me what you can. I realize they could be original or replacements. Not expecting it to be of any value, just looking for historical perspective. Thanks.
Ocklawaha
October 13, 2009, 10:23:02 PMWe had these in Florida too! Here is a crossing of the Two Foot gauge Wiscasset, Waterville and Farmington RR and the Maine Central at Wiscasset, Maine. The spikes can indeed speak to us with a little CSI type work.
Hey my friend, we need to establish where they were found. The more exact the location the better. For example up on Liberty Street, where it crosses the St. Johns River Terminal RR of the Norfolk Southern System, there is a warehouse on the SE corner of the railroad and Liberty. BUT! Oh and what a BUT! That entire block where the warehouse sits, plus some of the vacant land around it's north side, was once a turntable, and shop complex for the railroad! Almost directly Northeast of that, in the center of the WYE track, in the heavy bushes, is the site of the Springfield Railroad Station, that Glorious Johnson, remembers so well.
No real value to the spikes, at least not more then a few bucks, unless they happen to be gold or silver. The length width and head on them tells us a lot about the type, size and weight of the rail they held in place. My Florida Railroad spike from near Lauraville, is 3" inches long! Rail was 12 - 20 pounds per yard, track gauge 2' feet. Modern rail is 136 pounds per yard, you need much bigger spikes.
OCKLAWAHA
stjr
October 13, 2009, 11:49:53 PMThanks, Ock, though I am still unsure of what exactly I have. Is there a web site that types them?
ralpho37
October 14, 2009, 12:30:41 AMIf streetcars were to be put in here, realistically, does anyone think they would be used? Is there enough demand for a streetcar run down the Mainstreet Corridor? If so, would it be enough for Transit Oriented Developments to follow?
deathstar
October 14, 2009, 03:01:10 AMralpho37
October 14, 2009, 10:32:18 AMHaha, yeah now that you mention it I guess that post does have the potential to set some people off. I'm trying to be realistic, not start an argument or anything... Well, I came out and said it, so let's hear what yall have to say! Is it feasible?
thelakelander
October 14, 2009, 11:00:34 AMAs long as they go somewhere (like to Shands), they'll get used. The key to mass transit is to efficiently link people from where they live to major destinations and to make sure your stops are at true destinations instead of isolated parking garages and seldom used locations.
Not Main Street alone, but if it were a part of a line connecting Shands with Springfield, DT, Riverside, the Southbank, San Marco, the stadium, etc. there would be.
It did 100 years ago. Main Street is a TOD corridor. Unfortunately, the transit was ripped out in the 30s and its been downhill since for that corridor. So far, examples from our peer cities with streetcars strongly suggest TOD would follow as a result. Now if you're talking BRT and PCT, the examples get difficult to find.
ralpho37
October 14, 2009, 11:57:04 AMThank you lake, those are the kinds of questions that need to be answered when considering transit options. Streetcars seem like a great option for transit. They are much cheaper than any other type of rail transit, and they add elegance to any setting. I hope that one day we can have streetcars running down Main Street again.