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aaapolito
October 16, 2009, 06:47:57 AMIn addition, there are several streets in that immediate area which are in need of repairs/ repaving.
AND they better bring back the paw prints!
Charles Hunter
October 16, 2009, 07:06:28 AMThere are streets in worse shape, but I think the repaving was for the new "reversible" striping pattern. I see in the pictures all the lines in the "after" picture a short and yellow, while the "before" are the more traditional yellow in the middle, and white between lanes going the same direction. All part of the plan to get people into and out of the Sports Complex more quickly. I did see somewhere that it will still require lots of police to implement, so where's the benefit of the fancy lights?
fsu813
October 16, 2009, 07:53:39 AMwhat a waste....
who's idea was it for this particular part of the project?
i'd like to have his contact info.
tufsu1
October 16, 2009, 07:57:50 AMUm....they did just restripe for 2-way traffic and widen a portion of the road by a few feet...more often than not a road is resurfaced when these activities occur....for example, when they added a lane in each direction of I-10 (at the new Cecil Commerce Pkwy) they also resurfaced the existing lanes.
btw....this entire project, which includes all the new mast arm signals, new sidewalks, and the resurfacing/restriping cost around $3 million....that's pretty good for a one mile (+/-) stretch, especially when you consider that mas arms like that often cost $100,000 each!
BridgeTroll
October 16, 2009, 08:36:12 AMThe BIG question is... Are they going to repaint the Jaguar paw prints on the new surface??
ac
October 16, 2009, 08:39:12 AMKnowing this town, they'll instead put back the original gator footprints that predated the Jags.
sean
October 16, 2009, 08:39:48 AMI could never see the need to pay $3 Million Dollars so all of the suburbanites can run home faster after games. Instead of sitting in traffic, there are a few restaurants and bars downtown that do not charge $11 for a bud lite. Also apparently notifying the business owners on that street about the construction was an after thought.
xian1118
October 16, 2009, 08:40:58 AMI thought it looked pretty nice during my drive on Bay Street Monday night and it's just in time for FLA-GA. I believe part of this project was the expansion of sidewalks along Bay Street around the stadium. A better question would be to ask where the money came from. This could have been allocated years ago.
Does anyone know if the historically teal Hart Bridge had anything to do with the selection of the Jaguars primary color?
ac
October 16, 2009, 08:45:54 AMFurthermore, give the visitors and lowly suburbanites something to do downtown instead of being sneered at by folks like you, and maybe we'd see some changes on game and event days.
How about those aforementioned restaurants advertise their services to the crowds before and after said games and events? Hand out flyers in the lot before and after games. Put folks at the lot exits with sandwich boards, something? Don't make them research things to do after their events- go get those customers!
Lunican
October 16, 2009, 09:00:37 AMbtw....this entire project, which includes all the new mast arm signals, new sidewalks, and the resurfacing/restriping cost around $3 million....that's pretty good for a one mile (+/-) stretch, especially when you consider that mas arms like that often cost $100,000 each!
So a road is repaved in order to have a clean slate for striping? Is that a requirement?
What portion was widened?
thelakelander
October 16, 2009, 09:09:50 AMThey widened the bridge over Hogans Creek a little while ago.
Lunican
October 16, 2009, 09:22:49 AMThat section had already been repaved.
GideonGlib
October 16, 2009, 09:30:47 AMAnd yet all of Springfield is one tangle-bang of pot hole after another. Good Grief.
thelakelander
October 16, 2009, 09:35:20 AMThey also reduced the width of the sidewalk by a foot or two between Ocean and Liberty.
jagsfan32092
October 16, 2009, 09:37:41 AMThey BETTER repaint the paw prints! I wish they would paint them teal.
tufsu1
October 16, 2009, 11:17:29 AMthe southside of the road from Ocean to at least Market (maybe Liberty) was widened by about 3 feet....it was done to convert the outside parking lane into a travel lane....allowing 4 lanes of traffic + one parking lane.
untarded
October 16, 2009, 11:30:41 AMHow much extra would it have cost to lay the groundwork for light rail during this project? Ock?
Lunican
October 16, 2009, 11:36:29 AMOcean to Liberty is 3 blocks and not even pictured.
ralpho37
October 16, 2009, 12:58:10 PMSince MetroJax got them to redo the I-95 bridge signs, would it be possible for us to lobby for some teal Jaguar prints as well??
heights unknown
October 16, 2009, 01:41:54 PMCould it be in anticipation of future developments? Or soon to be construction that we don't know about? Looking at the before and after pics, Bay Street looked fine to me.
Heights Unknown
tufsu1
October 16, 2009, 01:44:28 PMOcean to Liberty is 3 blocks and not even pictured.
sure...originally I said that a portion of the road was widened....
maybe they could have avoided resurfacing the whole thing, but have you seen what restriping looks like when not in the same place (those black lines can be confusing)....now the it looks good and can last another 10 +/- years before needing to be done again....so its not a complete waste of money.
sean
October 16, 2009, 02:11:18 PMFurthermore, give the visitors and lowly suburbanites something to do downtown instead of being sneered at by folks like you, and maybe we'd see some changes on game and event days.
How about those aforementioned restaurants advertise their services to the crowds before and after said games and events? Hand out flyers in the lot before and after games. Put folks at the lot exits with sandwich boards, something? Don't make them research things to do after their events- go get those customers!
"After games" I guess was rather vague and apologies if I did not list every single crowd drawing activity in that general complex. Anywho, there is plenty to do downtown after the games such as the bars along Bay St., Burrito Gallery , the London Bridge, City Hall pub, and The Landing for starters. I have personally flyered several times for a bar during FL/GA and other events.The "murmurings" are not the result of traffic problems but rather, like most things, Money and Politics.
The reason I am against this system is because it creates a "Cattle Chute" to usher people out of downtown as quickly as possible. This in turn makes a choice for people to bypass the food, bars and culture of downtown. Not to mention hindering further development.
Omarvelous09
October 16, 2009, 02:14:19 PMLaura St, Riverside Ave, Pearl St & St. Johns Ave....
thelakelander
October 16, 2009, 02:26:06 PMHow many times has Bay been resurfaced in the last couple of years? Wasn't it resurfaced for the Super bowl and Bay Street Town Center projects? If JTA puts a streetcar in, it will be resurfaced again. Sounds more like a lack of coordination problem between different public agencies and city departments.
kBasarab
October 16, 2009, 02:29:41 PMI would think the reason this was repaved was a safety concern. You start messing with the striping to the extent they were doing it and the new striping wouldn't be as easy to see.
thelakelander
October 16, 2009, 02:32:02 PMSounds like a coordination problem, which in turn, costs the taxpayer more money in the long run. What's the plan when streetcar tracks go down the middle of those reversible lanes? Perhaps we'll cross that bridge when we get to it?
tufsu1
October 16, 2009, 02:42:10 PMexactly...and I wouldn't expect to see streetcar tracks on Bay Street for at least 10 years.
Lunican
October 16, 2009, 03:19:08 PMMeanwhile, all around downtown we have roads with actual safety issues. Someone demolished their car by hitting this hole on Jefferson Street:
ac
October 16, 2009, 03:24:00 PMThe reason I am against this system is because it creates a "Cattle Chute" to usher people out of downtown as quickly as possible. This in turn makes a choice for people to bypass the food, bars and culture of downtown. Not to mention hindering further development.
I can understand your point, but there are thousands of people who--to a man/woman--couldn't rattle off all those places you cited, with the notable exception of the Landing venues and maybe City Hall Pub.
Still others wouldn't go anywhere you sent them downtown because of their entrenched ngative perception of the core. Bottom line is, the people who don't want to stay downtown aren't going to anyway, regardless of how easy or hard it is to get the hell out of Dodge and back home.
I still stand by the statement that if the downtown venues want to skim some of those eventgoers, they have to be beyond aggressive, moreso because the city won't help you and you have the added bonus of a perception problem to overcome. Will any of these modifications prevent someone turning off of Bay St? If the answer is no, then perhaps the onus is on the venues to make people want to turn off of Bay--or better yet, not get in the car to begin with--right??
Otherwise, we can keep griping over spilt milk and cursing those evil suburbanites whose money the business owners ironically covet being spent in their venues.
As for me, it has nothing to do with perception of nothing to do. I'm well aware of what's there. I'm usually sweaty and feel gross after a game, so I'd prefer to go home and shower before going out somewhere, especially to one of the more trendy places, whose regulars may or may not look too favorably on all us "Neanderthal Jag/sports/whatever band you hate that played at the arena fans" ruining the vibe of their hangouts. I'm probably off-base with that, but I tend not to enjoy patronizing a place I don't feel welcome in unless I run home and put on the right clothes or look the right way; and I'm well aware that's likely my own paranoia.
Furthermore, I have a wife and kid at home, which also limits where I can go and what I can do afterward. Were I still single, I'd probably hang out in a couple of the bars downtown.
stephendare
October 16, 2009, 03:31:11 PMac the only way that perception will ever change is if people are exposed to what is there now.
Lunican
October 16, 2009, 03:38:36 PMThe larger issue is that the city continues to 'invest' in downtown projects without understanding what actually makes downtown's desirable. We've spent millions on our downtown, but it still struggles.
ac
October 16, 2009, 03:49:09 PMTotally agree Stephen and Lunican. The City has to help, but until they "get it," the businesses that want these people to patronize them need to be even more aggressive in response to changes like this. This is one change that likely is here to stay, because of the huge stink last October over FL/GA ingress/egress and traffic control.
It will likely turn Bay into a racetrack, which is sad; but with the right marketing, it may be easier to get folks to turn off of Bay if they don't have to wait in gridlock to travel a paltry few blocks.
If we had reliable and fixed public transportation along the route to the stadium and back, this likely would be a non-existent discussion.
jeh1980
October 16, 2009, 04:31:34 PMI'm not knocking the city on this. I didn't understand why at first, but I'm not saying anything. But then again, I don't see why it's that bad. It looked pretty good considerably. Now mabye if they can add some entertainment along Bay Street to accompany it.
aaapolito
October 16, 2009, 05:56:28 PMHate to bring this back up again, but it the project turns on whether the PAW PRINTS are brought back. And I like the idea of the paws being TEAL!
Midway
October 16, 2009, 06:10:52 PMFollow the money....find out which company did the work and who owns that company, and you will have your answer.
Keith-N-Jax
October 16, 2009, 06:29:31 PMOne would think the Jags will be leaving in a few yrs so why waste money on the paw prints.Just an idea.
Ocklawaha
October 16, 2009, 08:48:13 PMToday at 11:30:41 AM
How much extra would it have cost to lay the groundwork for light rail during this project? Ock?
General rule of thumb, between I'd call it at about $5 Million a mile, with a green median. Ties, ballast, rails, even overhead wire and poles, brackets and hangers.
So JTA is moving ahead with the BRT plan, even the downtown portion. A billion dollar bus ride that after our investment is done. Even now some of my railroad contractor friends think my quote is too high.
OCKLAWAHA
Doctor_K
October 16, 2009, 09:10:01 PMSeriously? What a pile of crap. Why in the world are they moving forward with BRT? Is JTA stupid? The answer, as of that statement, is a resounding 'yes.'
tufsu1
October 16, 2009, 09:55:07 PMThe BRT plan they are moving forward with is not what you think...its really premium bus service on roads...wth better headways, shelters, signal pre-emption, etc....less than $3 million per mile.
and I think Ock's estimate is low....single track rail would likely cost closer to $8 million per mile....double track is more like $12 million per mile....and many LRT systems around the country are costing $25+ million per mile.
That said, the plan is to move ahead with commuter rail and streetcar....in addition to BRT
thelakelander
October 16, 2009, 10:54:15 PMJTA should change the name of the revised BRT. Its really more of a rapid bus service than BRT.
Ocklawaha
October 16, 2009, 11:58:51 PMand I think Ock's estimate is low....single track rail would likely cost closer to $8 million per mile....double track is more like $12 million per mile....and many LRT systems around the country are costing $25+ million per mile.
That said, the plan is to move ahead with commuter rail and streetcar....in addition to BRT
I disagree as what we would build downtown would be heritage streetcar. Right now, I could pick up the phone and have two cars delivered to the Port of Jacksonville for under a million dollars. As streetcars do not require the big dig, or utility relocation's we dodge the bullet . Better then dodging the bullet on utilities, is many of our streets have a compacted roadbed right below our feet, remains of Florida's largest streetcar network. Memphis, has built much of it's line for under 3 million a mile, Kenosha was another budget deal, as was Ft. Smith, El Reno, Ft. Collins, Dallas Streetcar, etc.
I think our best shot might lay with a 501c3, as a private venture, seeking grants (including sax seafood - unless it's already occupied) and an operation and funding agreement with the city and JTA. Many cities have employed this method on their heritage rail lines. If it works for heritage rail it might also fit our Skyway.
OCKLAWAHA
JeffreyS
October 17, 2009, 12:05:01 AMThat said, the plan is to move ahead with commuter rail and streetcar....in addition to BRT
braeburn
October 17, 2009, 01:36:52 AMThe fact of the matter is that the road screams of "get in and get out" and "this is the only thing we want you to see."
Good luck making Bay St. the nightlife party strip if it's going to be a high speed thruway for the suburbanites to get out of dodge "faster"...
CS Foltz
October 17, 2009, 06:57:34 AMWell if they move ahead with "Commuter rail,Skyway with rapid bus and traditional bus support" that would be one thing...........but that has not been discussed in the open that I am aware of. Now if those possibilities have been discussed in smoke filled back rooms that is something else! One can always hope the current Administration see's the Transportation Light but they would have to convince me. I disagree with the paving that is taking place in the Stadium area since there are roads that need more help than that out there right now! Johnny's team is just busy wasting my tax dollars again!
BridgeTroll
October 17, 2009, 07:00:55 AMThis is amazing... the clear disdain of some towards Suburbanites... against the complaints that the city is herding them out of the city. Perhaps they feel they are not wanted by the urbanistas... it is certainly painfully clear in certain posts on this thread.
TheProfessor
October 17, 2009, 11:13:46 AMI think this is a good traffic control installation. Now if only JTA had light rail from downtown to the sports complex on Bay. The corridor would really thrive.
Bewler
October 17, 2009, 11:33:22 AMOne question, do we know specifically how much of the 3.5 million this repaving portion of the work cost? As well as how long it took? Just to give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they did this only because the conditions were so that it was easy for them to quickly slap down this new pavement and at a minor expense.
tufsu1
October 17, 2009, 07:20:05 PMthe resurfacing probably cost around $500,000.....and it was done over 4 nights last week
CS Foltz
October 18, 2009, 07:41:44 AM500K that could have been spent where it was really needed! Those streets could have been Microfinished. Same process used on airport runways at about 1/2 the cost or less..............Johnny's team is just busy wasting money again and again and again..........for this we get our taxes raised?
Lunican
October 18, 2009, 12:26:15 PMThere were 16 mast arms installed. 16 x 100,000 = $1.6 million.
Total project cost was $3.5 million and was funded by the city’s capital improvement plan.
zoo
October 19, 2009, 04:40:20 PMDoes anyone have the details of when, where and what type of police units are scheduled on game days (Jags, FL/Ga, otherwise)?
This "cattle chute" issue is one that downtown merchants, many game goers and nearby neighborhood residents have been smarting about for more than 3 years. Yet, the City and JSO do not listen.
Maybe if we had the details, and proposed an alternative plan that maximized public safety AND urban exploration/vibrancy, we could get someone to make a modification? Tho I expect they would use seasonal contracts, Wayne Weaver told us not to, or some other such change-aversion, we-don't-want-to-have-to-lift-a-finger lingo, as an excuse not to implement until at least next fall.
Lunican
October 21, 2009, 01:19:54 PMJoey Marchy from www.urbanjacksonville.info reported that the giant hole of Jefferson St is being filled in today. It has been there since the beginning of summer.
JeffreyS
October 22, 2009, 02:26:50 PMI heard the mayor on the radio today say that it was part of game day improvements made for the FL/GA game. They had big traffic issues last year and both schools requested something be done. He also said it would save the city money over putting up cones and barricades for events. I am guessing you would also need less police directing traffic.
ac
October 22, 2009, 02:53:04 PM^
But that (the improvements stemming primarily from the '08 FL/GA game debacle) won't stop people from blaming the Jaguars, as we see a couple posts up. It also gives yet another built-in excuse for DT businesses. I'm not saying the city doesn't make it hard for them to operate, but there has to be a point where one stops expecting the city to funnel people right to their doorstep and individually, aggressively, goes after those people they want to stay downtown after events.
Will the people who'll be "funneled out" after these events be actual lost patrons, or patrons the businesses never had to begin with? Did they even want these people in their establishments to begin with? If so, how aggressively did they go after them before? Are they willing to step it up and fight even harder to get these simultaneously desired yet reviled suburban patrons (and their dollars), or are we just going to hear incessant griping and watch doors close?
Somehow I think it'll be more of the former and much less of the latter.
JeffreyS
October 22, 2009, 03:01:45 PMI have wondered a few times if people find it easy to get home will they lose that panic that if they don't rush home they will be stuck all night. They might stop leaving games early and may stay to eat or party because traffic clears out quickly.
ac
October 22, 2009, 03:04:13 PMKnow you have an easy way home, and you might stick around. That would be the argument for adding reliable, fixed-route transit along the corridor as well.
Incidentally, lots of folks stick around in the lots after the games to wait for traffic to clear. Find a way to draw those folks to establishments to get dinner, watch the late games, etc. and draw them away from the tailgate lots.
Keith-N-Jax
October 22, 2009, 10:49:02 PMAnyone go to the Landing after a Jag game whats it like. It appears that only after the Fla/Ga do people stay downtown and thats because they are probably from out of town. People here dont see downtown as a place to linger. I never take Bay street after an event at the stadium or V-center.
tufsu1
October 22, 2009, 10:53:29 PMactually The Landfing gets reasonably crowded for about 2 hours following games...after that, it empties out
Keith-N-Jax
October 22, 2009, 10:56:29 PMI guess 2 hrs is good,,best you could expect for Jax.
thelakelander
October 23, 2009, 12:24:18 AMI'd like to see how the Landing pans out if Ale House (rumored in this forum) takes the old South End Brewery spot. Along with Chicago Pizza, that would provide the center with strong dining/night time entertainment anchors on each end.
civil42806
October 23, 2009, 03:21:14 AMWell when i'm in town I take bay street from the convention center parking lot to I-10, but then I'm a evil suburbanite, so what do you expect
Keith-N-Jax
October 23, 2009, 06:13:55 AMHmmm Lake I wonder how many people outside of this board know about anything new opening at the Landing. Most only go during a holiday event. I am also surprised that the news even reported about the new lights on Bay Street since they are always looking for something negative to report.
thelakelander
October 23, 2009, 06:23:33 AMHere is an article about some of the recent openings from the Jax Daily Record:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6501.0.html
fsujax
October 23, 2009, 08:13:50 AMI was at the Landing Sunday before the game, it was dead! I have the pics to prove it. After the game, however, the Landing was packed. I think it had something to do with a dog costume contest, though!
ac
October 23, 2009, 08:58:42 AMHow were the pre-game crowds last season for the Browns and Titans games at 4 PM, or the Steelers and Colts games in prime time? I would expect a decent crowd at the Landing on Dec. 17, prior to the Thursday night game against the Colts.
fsujax
October 23, 2009, 09:03:35 AMYeah, all the 1 o'clock kick-offs really hurt the pregame festivities I believe.
ac
October 23, 2009, 09:05:14 AMI'm interested in what impact having Chicago Pizza and (possibly) an Ale House down there will have on pre- and post-game Landing traffic. Average folks here clearly like chains and recognizable names. I'm guilty of that myself.
tufsu1
October 23, 2009, 09:07:22 AMGo Yappy Hour!
Wacca Pilatka
October 23, 2009, 09:30:27 AMThere was a good crowd at the Landing before the night game against the Colts last year. Of course, the Christmas tree/musical performances could have contributed.
Keith-N-Jax
October 23, 2009, 06:33:31 PMThe 1 o clock starts people tailgate, no need to go the Landing when you have your own free food and drinks.