Print ArticleHere is a Quick Update from last August's Metro Jacksonville Article:
From Metro Jacksonville Member Steve Congro to FDOT Public Relations Guru Michael Goldman, Thursday, April 03, 2008 4:33 PM
Mike,
My name is Steve Congro, and I'm with a Downtown Think Tank called MetroJacksonville.com. We focus on issues affecting Downtown Jacksonville, and the surrounding areas. I had a question regarding the I-95 Northbound signage at Exit 350A.
The sign list four roads (Riverside Ave, Mary St, Main St, and Prudential Drive). It appears that this sign was created around the ramps that existed for the original Acosta Bridge and the Main St Bridge before the northbank Ramps were added. The reason that I say this is because the signs are very misleading for a driver coming downtown. For one, there is no way to get directly to Main St from the Ramp; you get dumped out on Ocean from the Main St Bridge. In addition, nowhere on these signs does it mention Water St or Broad St (until you are actually on the Acosta bridge). These are the roads that two of the three lanes of the bridge will put you out on. Finally, other than the sign a mile from the exit, the names of the bridges are nowhere to be found, so someone at the exit who was told to take the Acosta bridge from a friend will have no idea where to go.
Is there any plan to replace or revise this sign?
Thanks for your time, and feel free to check out our site at MetroJacksonville.com.
Steve Congro
MetroJacksonville.com
From FDOT's Tom Cavin to FDOT's Don Drury, Wednesday, April 09, 2008 2:29 PM
Don,
I like the idea. I have always thought these signs should state Main Street Bridge and Acosta Bridge.
Tom Cavin, P.E.
From FDOT's Jim Scott to Don Drury, No Time Stamp
Don:
I like the plan. Let's try for the new signs. If Tom agrees with this scheme, please forward to Rick Ball to get concurrence from the City. After the City approves we will get back in touch with Mr. Congro.
Jim Scott, P.E.
From Don Drury to COJ's Richard Ball, Wednesday, April 16, 2008 5:49 PM
Rick,
Please see the e-mail below from Mr. Steve Congro, he has asked FDOT to review the existing signing on I-95 NB for Exit 350A. This is the exit to either the Main St Bridge or Acosta Bridge into downtown. Our review found we could adjust the wording on three existing overhead sign assemblies. I have attached what we can do to help clear up any misunderstandings as to where the Main St & Acosta Bridges are located from Exit 350A. He was also concerned about having the message of Main Street, which you cannot directly reach from the Main Street Bridge, it's either Ocean, Bay or Newnan Street's.
Basically if we change any of our existing signs we will add the Main St Bridge and Acosta Bridge to the three locations and we will change Main Street to Ocean Street if the City of Jacksonville agrees that Ocean Street is the correct street to sign on I-95 northbound at Exit 350A.
Thank you,
Don Drury
From Richard Ball to JEDC Executive Director Ron Barton, Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:42 PM
Ron:
Does the JEDC have any preferences in this issue.
The point that you end up on Ocean St. not Main St. if you are northbound across the Main St. bridge makes a lot of sense to me but I would like your input before I reply to FDOT.
Three Months Pass......
From Richard Ball to Ron Barton, Monday, July 07, 2008 8:31 AM
Ron:
FDOT is pushing me for an answer to this.
I still need JEDC's input.
From Ron Barton To JEDC's Paul Crawford and Eric Lindstrom, Monday, July 07, 2008 10:01 AM
I guess DOT wants to do something. Can you guys figure out the best approach for downtown. Paul you looked at some of this stuff earliest when it first came out.
From Paul Crawford to Richard Ball, Ron Barton and Eric Lindstrom Monday, July 08, 2008 11:28 AM
Attached are my recommendations for the modifications to the FDOT signage approaching downtown.
(Click HERE to download the attachment to this message)
(Unfortunately, you will find that nowhere in the attached document is there anything regarding the original topic; the signage for exit 350A from I-95 into downtown.)
Now, let's fast forward to 2009:
From FDOT's Don Drury to Metro Jacksonville Member Steve Congro, Wednesday, April 09, 2008 2:29 PM
Steve,
We have received approval from the City of Jacksonville to change the I-95 signs for exit 350A to include the Acosta Bridge, Main Street Bridge and Ocean Street.
We will forward a work request to our maintenance office next week for them to review and comment on this work. However, we do not know at this time whether they have the funds to complete such a large project, our estimate is $58,075. We will let you and the city of Jacksonville know as soon as we know.
I would like to thank you and your group for your inquiry about providing better guidance to our users as they enter downtown Jacksonville. These improvements when completed will benefit many.
Please call me if you have any questions.
Again Thanks,
Don Drury
Finally, as of May 5th (429 days later), Metro Jacksonville's effort finally came to fruition.
The initial article was published August 8th, 2008:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-aug-metro-jacksonville-pushes-fdot-for-signage-coj-stalls
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copperfiend
May 19, 2009, 06:47:26 AMAwesome work Steve.
fsujax
May 19, 2009, 06:50:41 AMFinally! Way to get things done!
Cliffs_Daughter
May 19, 2009, 07:27:29 AMThat's great!
hiddentrack
May 19, 2009, 07:53:11 AMIf there was ever an example for not giving up, this would be it. It may take a while, but it's possible to get things changed here in Jacksonville. Keep up the great work, everybody!
What's next?
tufsu1
May 19, 2009, 08:01:28 AMnoticed these about a week ago....it often takes FDOT a long time to make sign changes...these are much better...way to go guys!
fsujax
May 19, 2009, 08:07:00 AMYou know what I just thought about....those signs will probably be coming down once they start construction on that section of I-95.
Deuce
May 19, 2009, 08:12:17 AMSeems the drag was as much the city as FDOT. As someone who works in the public sector I can understand why these things drag on. There is so much red tape and bureaucracy to wade through it can get ridonkulous. What emerges from the tone of the emails though is that FDOT was open to the ideas and responsive while the city was just meh. Great work though guys! It's all in the details.
BridgeTroll
May 19, 2009, 08:15:44 AMPersistance gets results... great job!
tufsu1
May 19, 2009, 08:28:19 AMdon't worry...given FDOT's funding situation and normal delays, that project likely won't start for at least 5 years
5PointsGuy
May 19, 2009, 08:59:33 AMWell done!
cracklow
May 19, 2009, 09:57:00 AMhuzzah! good work!
fsujax
May 19, 2009, 10:21:29 AMI honestly do not see how FDOT is even going to be able to do anything in the next few years.
Ocklawaha
May 19, 2009, 10:59:33 AMFar Out Steve! ...
Next project?
I've got a streetcar system to sell you.
OCKLAWAHA
Doctor_K
May 19, 2009, 11:09:52 AMLOL. Nice. The official countdown will begin when Steve sends that email out.
T- 429 days and counting.
Ocklawaha
May 19, 2009, 11:32:27 AMThis shouldn't be too hard for our Republican administration. THINK FSUJAX, THINK:
Bake Sales
Selling Greeting Cards
Amway Business
Fund Raiser Chocolate Bars
Seasonal Gift Wrap Sales
Then there is always the industrial segment of the business world, "Make Big Money Selling Fishing Worms". Giant red wigglers.
September 05, 2007 by Nick Howes
Earthworms Get in for Pennies, Make a Living at It
Selling earthworms is a perfect small business endeavor. You can start small and cheap with the knowledge that your stock replenishes itself. It's good money for teens needing spending money, for retirees seeking to supplement their fixed income, or for someone looking for a sideline with expansion potential.
You can do what we did as kids, gather earthworms on the lawn or under leaves for an extra $500 over a summer or, like a lady worm rancher in Grafton, Illinois does, raise the worms in a garage-type building in big 10'x5' beds.
I will assume for the purposes of this article that you want to launch this for pocket change, which is a perfectly plausible option, then reinvest to build the business.
OCKLAWAHA
RyanL
May 19, 2009, 11:58:14 AMThank you for wasting $58,000 dollars on something that will be obsolete in the near future. This was a huge waste of money that the tax payers pay for that could have gone toward something much more productive.
BridgeTroll
May 19, 2009, 12:00:07 PMCorrecting incorrect signs is a waste of money?? I am about as frugal as they come here and I cannot follow your logic.
stephendare
May 19, 2009, 12:07:23 PMI guess because accurately designating your roads is socialism Bridge Troll.
Can't see why you cant follow the logic.
RyanL
May 19, 2009, 12:08:01 PMHow long have the signs been like that and not been a huge problem to the city? At least 429 days as it is stated in the article. Now why spend $58,000 dollars on something that has not been a huge problem to the city when in a couple of years the signs will be worthless as they redo I-95. It is a waste of money as it has been wrong for over a year and will soon be replaced anyway.
stephendare
May 19, 2009, 12:14:49 PMI guess, Ryan, the question is whether or not you consider that the general confusion to newcomers making their way into the downtown is a 'problem', a 'huge problem' or a 'tourist attraction'.
Believe it or not, there will actually be people using that bridge between now and when they redo I 95.
Just saying.
RyanL
May 19, 2009, 12:17:41 PMand I'm just saying that the newcomers in the last 429 days still somehow managed to find their way around.
stephendare
May 19, 2009, 12:20:47 PMso, you personally guarantee that all that wasted gas and the extra time of the people trying to figure out the exits was less than 58 thousand dollars?
Interesting claim.
Steve
May 19, 2009, 12:21:26 PMYes, however the goal of the group is to make downtown less hostile. By not having accurate signage, people get frustrated coming downtown because they can't figure out where they are going. Yes, I'm sure it's a very small percentage of people that decide screw it, I can't find what I'm looking for, and leave. However, I think there is a VERY high percentage that say, "I hate coming down here, I always get lost". The goal of this is to alleviate that.
chipwich
May 19, 2009, 12:29:18 PMI guess I would have to agree with Ryan L here.
The signs are going to get torn down anyway in the not too distant future.
While I think we all greatly admire Steve's efforts to get the DOT to put up more accurate signs, I think it is perhaps also prudent to say "forget it if it is going to cost $60,000".
The City and State are both broke, adding $60K to that isn't going to help. I would rather them not put up any new signage anywhere and repeal the new storm water retention fees (smash and grab) than to replace signs that already seem to do the job.
If the DOT wasn't going to revamp the entire highway in a couple of years, then it would be worth the price, but things being as they are with us being broke and with plans for a new interchange, I just don't think it worth it.
It's not a social, liberal, or conservative idea, it is dollars and cents.
fsujax
May 19, 2009, 12:30:42 PMWell, don't get too worked up over this, FDOT will not destroy the signs....I am sure they will save them and put them back up when construction is complete.
thelakelander
May 19, 2009, 12:33:48 PMTo be fair and to put things in their perspective place, DOT had not announced that they were going to rebuild that section of highway 429 days ago. In addition to this, the new signs also span the Acosta/Main ramps and the Acosta Bridge. So most of the new signage will remain in place whenever the Overland Bridge project kicks off, five years from now or so.
tufsu1
May 19, 2009, 12:35:45 PMcorrect....since the northbound lanes won't be permanently reconfigured as part of the I-95 project, the signs will still be usefdul.
And of course (as Lake said) it seems likely that the 3 lanes that go to downtown won't be changed during construction.....so most of the new signs may still in place the whole time!
chipwich
May 19, 2009, 12:52:02 PMWell, perhaps the bigger question here is...and I am by no means a sign expert, but why the heck does it cost $58,000 to put up some new sheet metal with reflective tape on it?
Steve's idea is very good and noble, but $58K for a sign seems very very excessive to me.
stephendare
May 19, 2009, 12:57:07 PMI guess thats how much it costs to make it durable.
And a real concern is just the general half assedness that goes into anything surrounding the central city.
We should be doing things right the first time.
Lunican
May 19, 2009, 12:58:58 PMWhere did the $58,000 number come from anyway?
And yes, roads and the stuff that goes with them are expensive.
chipwich
May 19, 2009, 01:20:40 PMFrom the DOT to Steve:
"We will forward a work request to our maintenance office next week for them to review and comment on this work. However, we do not know at this time whether they have the funds to complete such a large project, our estimate is $58,075. We will let you and the city of Jacksonville know as soon as we know."
"And yes, roads and the stuff that goes with them are expensive. "
My car goes on the road and it's made out of durable sheet metal, but it didn't cost $58,000.
I just wanted to point that out and not dwell on my rant or detract from the original story. I guess the chief concern here revolves around a seeming excessive price tag for a mere street sign.
stephendare
May 19, 2009, 01:32:18 PMI agree with you on the cost, Chipwich. Im a pretty good printer. Know any sheet metal guys?
We should go into business.
Lunican
May 19, 2009, 01:33:45 PMThanks, I missed that earlier. The signs are a lot bigger than they look.
I think the lesson to be learned is that roads are extremely expensive.
fsujax
May 19, 2009, 01:33:54 PMsheet metal, hurricane resistant (cat 3) construction, reflective material (last 10-15 years), labor (probably the biggest costs) it all adds up. Don't even ask how much that those electronic message boards cost.
Lunican
May 19, 2009, 01:36:47 PMcopperfiend
May 19, 2009, 01:47:25 PMThanks for posting the image Lunican. I lived on that base on the sign for a few years as a kid.
thelakelander
May 19, 2009, 01:49:05 PMI think the lesson to be learned is that roads are extremely expensive.
We already know you can construct a mile of track for less than you can a mile of road. In addition, you also have to pay for the accessories, like those big green signs. Once you lay your track, you can buy a heritage streetcar for about $200k and no big hurricane resistant green signs will be needed. To get a system off the ground in Jax, we need less than 10 cars. However, rail systems and their components are too expensive and don't turn a profit. Go figure!
BridgeTroll
May 19, 2009, 02:32:41 PMSpeaking of innaccurate signs... last week I was heading home from the 5 points area via Stockton. I crossed under the I-10 interstate in the right hand lane preparing for a right turn onto Irene. On the newly painted right turn only lane with accompanying arrow I was shocked to see "RIGHT TURN O
NLY but with the N backwards. Laughingly I made the right turn only to see the exact same thing in the right turn only lane to merge onto I-10 West... backwards freeking N... in ONLY.Not sure if it is still there or not... I wonder how much paint costs...
stjr
May 19, 2009, 04:19:49 PMThis is far better than before. The economic benefits to better traffic flow and even avoiding just one accident caused by a confused motorist it is worth the costs. I am sure some of the expense is also for working in the middle of an interstate, probably in the middle of the night, while not completely closing it. And, remember, literally hundreds of thousands, or perhaps millions, of people rely on these signs each year so the costs per "impression" is minimal.
But, I guess addressing Water and Broad Streets, as requested, would have busted the budget! Mary Street is San Marco, Riverside is Riverside, and "nothing" streets are Downtown on the Acosta signs. It would also be nice if there were signs indicating the best bridges for the T-U Performing Arts Center (Acosta) and the Areana/Sports Complex (Main). I am sure DOT would argue this is too much to read at 60 plus mph but it's no more than all those roadside interstate signs showing hotels, gas, and food at interstate exits which are much smaller in size.
chipwich
May 19, 2009, 04:25:07 PMApparently about $800 per letter. As Stephandare suggested earlier, maybe its time for a MetroJacksonville field trip to Home Depot. I bet we could get it done for about 1/8th the price and then spend the rest on beer.
BridgeTroll
May 19, 2009, 04:35:41 PMIm thinking thats what got the Ns backwards to begin with...
nicktooch
May 20, 2009, 08:53:49 PMlet's think of more signs to change in an effort to aleviate confusion, even though the signs will be torn down later: coming NORTH on 95 say u wanna go to the town center (absurd idea right?) be sure to take 9A EAST? even though i'm going north on it eventually?... yes, i know. but dont worry soon it will be 295 north Eastern Beltway, bc that's not gonna confuse anyone lol.
thelakelander
May 20, 2009, 09:03:45 PMIn that case, why have signs at all? Why do anything? Nothing is permanent, so why bother.
Seriously though, the majority of the new signs aren't even on the Overland Bridge. It seems like a huge assumption is being made that all of these newly installed signs will be taken down in five years. How do we remotely know that this assessment is true?
tufsu1
May 20, 2009, 09:23:35 PMand don't forget about all of the pre-fab process...FDOT has to pay staff (or a consultant) to do the sign design....then FDOT has to apply to FHWA and get approval (sometimes done before design)...all of this takes time and money...I worked with a guy in Tampa who did signing and marking plans for the I-275 project (now under construction) for the better part of a year!
stjr
May 20, 2009, 09:50:18 PMAgain, I support the improvements made and appreciate DOT's efforts, but...
Thousands of signs made to standard DOT green and reflective white/yellow colors, standard typeset and sizing rules, standard metal gauges and alloys, standard structural engineering, etc. - what is the consultant for? spell check?
This reminds me of Pentagon purchasing - the $5,000 toilet, etc.
I would like to know what Disney pays for the signs on their roadways versus ones made by DOT.
Charles Hunter
May 20, 2009, 10:00:34 PMDidn't Gov. Bush cause a 25% reduction in state employees? Could it be that some jobs formerly done by state employees (DOT in this case) are now done by consultants? I mean, it's not like the work of designing signs and road went away when the employees did. What ya wanna bet that consultants cost more than the staff they replaced?
Oh, and based on what it cost to take the family to Disney earlier this Spring, I wouldn't be on their signs costing any less than DOT signs (and they have all those pretty colors, too!)
tufsu1
May 21, 2009, 08:17:24 AMCorrect Charles...for those who don't know FDOT has about the same # of employees in 2009 as it did in 1979....and the state's populatioon has more than doubled!
As such, FDOT does no do very much themselves, and has consultants for most studies as well as some everyday program management.
JaxNole
May 21, 2009, 10:44:13 PM$58,000 for corrections is worth my portion of tax dollars. Many may have found their destinations with the incorrect signage, but the fact is they were incorrect.
Not only are they correct, but they are more useful.
Who would object to spending $58,000 to correct signage if northbound I-95 signs were placed in southbound lanes?
DetroitInJAX
May 22, 2009, 07:31:54 AMSo its 58 grand... big deal. Compared to all the waste thats gone on with this stupid courthouse boondoggle thats a drop in the bucket.
The signs were wrong. They needed to be fixed.
My tax money did something to make thousands of motorists' lives better.. including mine. I'm happy with it and have always thought those signs were incorrect.
Lunican
May 22, 2009, 07:35:52 AMThe $58,000 likely would have been spent on something anyway. At least now we know it was spent on something useful.
JaxNole
May 22, 2009, 07:45:44 AMSince we are on the topic of usefulness, what about additions to the southbound I-95 signage at 9A/295 and downtown? Not many people know exiting on Union and continuing over the Mathews to Atlantic would lead to Atlantic Beach.
Southbound 95 at the US-90 and JTB exits already highlights "Jax Beaches" as a destination, so why not north of the river?
JaxNole
May 22, 2009, 07:49:52 AMNLY but with the N backwards. Laughingly I made the right turn only to see the exact same thing in the right turn only lane to merge onto I-10 West... backwards freeking N... in ONLY.Not sure if it is still there or not... I wonder how much paint costs...
BridgeTroll
May 22, 2009, 08:10:26 AMJaxNole
May 22, 2009, 08:17:30 AMTo their credit, the right turn only lane on Irene indicates it is such every 20 feet or so.
I guess the message is, "YOU MAY ONLY TURN RIGHT FROM THIS LANE!"
urbanlibertarian
May 22, 2009, 06:08:37 PMJaxNole wrote "Not many people know exiting on Union and continuing over the Mathews to Atlantic would lead to Atlantic Beach."
It would be better to use the MLK Pkwy to get to the Mathews if coming south on I95.
JaxNole
May 22, 2009, 06:53:38 PMIt would be better to use the MLK Pkwy to get to the Mathews if coming south on I95.
Good catch. Another great opportunity to bring awareness to motorists that not only is there a bridge, but it leads to the beaches and the Atlantic.
Some people spontaneously hop in a car and explore new areas and some rely on signage to determine destinations.
Why doesn't FDOT more frequently highlight on our interstate signage that we have beaches and that Exit 3nn can take you there?
If our focus is on destinations, which makes more sense: To advertise which exit takes you to FCCJ/FSCJ Downtown or to the Times-Union PAC, Jacksonville Municipal Stadium, MOCA, The Jacksonville Landing, The Beaches, etc...?
stjr
May 22, 2009, 09:53:46 PMSpeaking of the I-95 Southbound exit for Union exit, as I recall, it leads to Beaver Street as well, but DOT also has no signs saying so. Instead, on I-95, they direct you to Kings Road and around the post office to a side street, Eaverson. Only the "insiders" are in the know! Imagine building an exit ramp and then telling no one it exists.
I suspect a DOT engineer will tell us Union is a left hand exit which I know they hate to build anymore, and the ramp to Beaver Street has a stop sign, not a light. But, going to Eaverson is literally going around the block! In rebuilding I-95, maybe they missed an opportunity to improve this. We have already had MJ threads about the neglect of Beaver Street, a U.S. highway no less, and this is just another example of it. Maybe it's why economically depressed areas stay that way?!
JaxNole
May 22, 2009, 10:37:08 PMMy guess is a broad-sweeping neglect of the area. Beaver carries considerable truck traffic and passes through industrial and decaying neighborhoods. Yet another improvement FDOT could make.
I don't understand many of the designs of our interstates, intrastates and highways, but, if I did not grow up here, I would say Jacksonville trails only Boston with the most confusing road system. At least Boston's excuse is the settlement predated the modern road system.
Since this is a thread about I-95 signage, perhaps we can take a cue from Steve and continue suggesting improvements to FDOT. Maybe if we follow Steve's efforts, FDOT will be more mindful of signage and improve its usefulness to those who pay attention to them.
Steve, are you up for it? If not, I'd be happy to begin. PM me if you're interested.
BTW, anyone know when 9A will officially become signed 295? Further, when will all references to 295 indicate whether it is the West or East beltway?
ProjectMaximus
May 23, 2009, 02:03:29 AMLast I've seen it will be "sometime in 2010."
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-01-29/story/what%E2%80%99s_in_a_direction_on_i_295_in_2010_it_depends
Perhaps there is a newer update?
9a is my backyard
May 31, 2009, 11:09:01 PMI thought I noticed something different when I drove through there today
Coolyfett
June 07, 2009, 10:46:20 AMThats interesting, I am surprised something that was broken was actually fixed in Jax. Good job to the movers and shakers. Maybe MetroJax can help with other things.
Coolyfett
June 07, 2009, 11:02:36 AMI have to disagree, when heading south or north toward a beltway the signs should read East and West. The expressway that you are on is the beltway divider, even thought the circle will eventually parallel the same expressway IE 95.
When does 9A become 295 East anyway? Whats up with those signs?
Coolyfett
June 07, 2009, 11:13:23 AMImpressive, the same could be said about the exits on 20th Expressway. The exits are not done properly.