Why is Historic Preservation Important?
Historic preservation is the practice of protecting and preserving sites, structures or districts which reflect elements of local or national cultural, social, economic, political, archaeological or architectural history. Preservation has many diverse purposes and rewards, including the strengthening of local economies, stabilization of property values, the fostering of civic beauty and community pride, and the appreciation of local and national history. Historic preservation is a public purpose that advances the education and welfare of citizens, while providing economic and aesthetic benefits as well.
Historic resources are defined as districts, sites, structures, objects or buildings that are greater than seventy-five years in age, and are significant in local, state or national history, architecture, archeology, engineering, or culture. History encompasses all cultures, economic classes, and social, political and private activities that form the background to the present.
What is a historic site or structure?
Historic resources fall into five categories or types: buildings, sites, structures, objects, or districts. A building is a construction created to shelter human activity, while structures are functional constructions usually created for purposes other than creating human shelter. A site is the location of a significant event, occupation or activity, while an object is primarily an artistic creation such as a sculpture, monument or statuary. A district is a collection of any or all of the above which is united historically or aesthetically.
What are the benefits of historic preservation?
The benefits of historic preservation come in many forms. The prime benefit of historical restoration is always education. It also includes both public and private benefits. Historic preservation safeguards a community's heritage, making it available to future generations for civic enjoyment and educational activities. Preservation stabilizes property values and strengthens local economies. In addition, the conservation and maintenance of historic resources and scenic areas fosters civic beauty and bolsters community pride. Finally, historic preservation has been successfully employed to improve business opportunities in many locales.
1. City Hall - NW corner of Forsyth & Ocean (current site of Haydon Burns Library)
2. Palace Theatre - SW corner of Forsyth & Ocean (current site of metal parking deck)
3. National Bank of Jacksonville - NW corner of Forsyth & Laura (current site of Jacksonville Bank Building)
4. Masonic Temple - SE corner of Main & Monroe (current site of surface parking lot)
5. Post Office Building - NE corner of Forsyth & Hogan (current site of office building)
6. Union Terminal - West Bay Street (the facade still remains)
7.
8. SE corner of Duval and Julia (current site occupied by Federal Courthouse Tower)
9. Demolition of Post Office Building for Furchgott's Department Store - SE corner of Adams & Hogan
10. Looking south over Hemming Park (current location of Dalton Agency)
11. NE corner of Forsyth & Ocean (current location of surface parking lot)
12. JCPenney - NE corner of Main & Bay (current location of metal parking deck)
13. Lane Drugs - SE corner of Forsyth & Main (current location of metal parking deck)
14. Jacksonville Terminal - Prime Osborn Convention Center
15.
16. Houston Street Bordellos - Houston & Davis
17. Looking east down Adams Street - Intersection of Adams & Julia
18. Looking east down Forsyth Street - Intersection of Forsyth & Laura
19. Looking north down Main Street - Intersection of Main & Forsyth
20. Looking north down Main - Intersection of Main & Forsyth
21. Rhodes Furniture Building - NW corner of Main & Monroe (demolished for new public library)
22.
23. Windsor Hotel on Hemming Park - NW corner of Hogan & Monroe (current location of Federal Courthouse)
24. Windor Hotel - Hemming Park
25.
26. Kennedy Generation Station - Tallyrand (just north of JaxPort)
27. West Bay Street Post Office - Bay Street adjacent to Jacksonville Terminal
28. Duval County Criminal Court & County Jail - Liberty Street
29. Haverty's Furniture Building - site of Main Street pocket park.
30. Jackson-Hoyt Building - NW corner of Bay & Laura (current location of BOA Tower)
31. Seminole Hotel - SE corner of Forsyth & Hogan (current location of BOA Tower)
32. Lee Simpson Tire Company - NW corner of Pearl & Adams (Duval County Courthouse site)
33. Sugar Hill - Looking north over Davis Street (Now FCCJ, HUD housing, I-95 and Shands, etc.)
34. Bay Street, between Main & Laura (location of One Independent Square)
35. Gulf Life Insurance Company - Adams Street (current location of Ed Ball Building)
36. Robert Meyer Hotel on Julia Street (current location of Federal Courthouse Tower)
37. Riverside Chevrolet
38. Looking east along Forsyth from intersection with Julia
39. Southern Bell Building - Adams, between Pearl & Julia (demolished for proposed county courthouse) 
40. St. Cloud Hotel in Springfield - Laura Street
41. NE corner of Main & Monroe (site of Main Street Pocket Park)
42.
43. Independent Life Building - SE corner of Bay & Laura (site of One Independent Square)
44. Imperial Theater - Forsyth, between Ocean & Main (site of metal parking deck)
45. Davis Street in LaVilla
46. Crane Warehouse on West Bay Street in LaVilla (currently a vacant lot)
47. City Hall - NW corner of Forsyth & Ocean (site of Haydon Burns Library)
48. J.G. Christopher Company - East Bay Street (Berkman Plaza)
49. Delchers Storage Building - Riverside Avenue in Brooklyn (demolished for recent road widening project)
50. Looking east down Forsyth - Intersection of Forsyth & Julia
51. Duval County Courthouse - NE corner of Forsyth & Market (site used as surface parking lot for Churchwell Lofts)
52. Bay Street, between Ocean & Laura (site of One Independent Square)
53. Downtown Jacksonville - Intersection of Pearl & Bay at image's bottom right corner
54.
55.
56. Atlantic Coast Line Offices - SW corner of Forsyth & Julia (site of AT&T Tower)
57. Atlantic Coast Line Terminal - SW corner of Forsyth & Jefferson
58. Arcade Theatre - SE corner of Adams & Laura (currently a vacant lot)
59. Andrew Jackson Hotel - NW corner of Main & Adams (The Police and Fire Pension Fund building location)
60. Looking east along Bay Street - block demolished for One Independent Square
61. SW corner of Bay & Broad (current skyway corridor along Bay Street)
62. Looking south over the Cathedral District - Union Street can be seen at the bottom
63. Capitol Theatre - Main Street, between 7th & 8th
64. Board of Trade Building - NE corner of Main & Adams (currently a surface parking lot)
65. Duval County Courthouse on left - NE corner of Forsyth & Market
Heard National Bank Building on right - SW corner of Forsyth & Laura (site of BOA Tower)
66. Duval County Courthouse - NW corner of Forsyth & Market (site occupied by parking deck)
67. SE corner of Forsyth & Julia (current location of BB&T Tower and surface parking lot)
68. Independent Life Building - SE corner of Bay & Laura
69. Germania Club - Riverside Avenue in Brooklyn
70. Flagler Hotel - 
71. Floridian Hotel
72. Davis & Co. Building
73. NW corner of Bay & Julia - (demolished for AT&T Tower)
74. Warrocks Guava Jelly - Main Street
75. Looking east over Forsyth 
76. George Washington Hotel - NW corner of Adams & Julia (proposed county courthouse site)
77. SE corner of Hogan & Monroe
78. Duval Motor Company in LaVilla (site of vacant lot)
79.
80. Elk's Building
81.
82.
Article by Ennis Davis
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civil42806
January 29, 2009, 05:26:09 AMGreat Photos. But I wonder if most people in the city really consider themselves part of jacksonville. My family has been here for a long time and have an mayor in the family line. I have worked downtown and lived in jax on an off for the past 50 years but still sort of consider myself a westsider. One of the odd things is the chant that has started at jags games "Duuuuuvaaaaalll". Almost as if the city itself is an afterthought. Just throwing that out.
BridgeTroll
January 29, 2009, 07:11:51 AMLove those historical photos... pic number 58 is centered on a theater. The building on the far left is a "French Novelty Shop". Hmmm....
jbm32206
January 29, 2009, 07:41:02 AMGood article, I just wished that each photo had the listing of what and where. It's really neat to see a glimpse of how it looked back then
heights unknown
January 29, 2009, 08:04:34 AMIf you've really been a part of Jacksonville and have lived here or even was born here, by seeing these pics and remembering most of what was from looking at these pics, it's clear that Jax could have been much much more; poor planning and failed planning on the part of our City Leaders past and present.
I think most of the buildings and developments in these pics would have been torn down anyway but we could have kept a good majority of them. It's nice to really know who you are and where you've been, not dwelling on the past, but seeing all of this really tells you what Jax really is, was, but never lived up to its full potential!
Heights Unknown
thelakelander
January 29, 2009, 08:07:33 AMjbm32206, I'll go through it later today and add the name and location of buildings I know. I'll also update information on names/locations revealed by other forum members.
jbm32206
January 29, 2009, 08:22:19 AMThanks....as it would be really great to know that info. I appreciate your hard work!
jbm32206
January 29, 2009, 08:25:38 AMI don't know if most of the buildings would've been taken down....not when you look at most major cities, where they've worked all along at preserving their history and historic buildings. Jax has failed miserably with that and has shown little to no effort in keeping these old buildings and restoring them.
I'm from Philly, and I'll tell you...I'm proud that they kept so many of them, that they're still functional to this day
lindab
January 29, 2009, 08:49:55 AMGreat photos and a good reminder. Something like urban renewal fever took over in Jacksonville and many of these buildings, which had decayed a bit, were demolished for new and shiny. I read a book by an planner living in Norfolk, VA who said that their entire historic district was demolished that way.
riverside planner
January 29, 2009, 09:09:23 AMBridgeTroll, French Novelty was a ladies clothing store that was quite popular through the 1980s. It was not the least bit tawdry.
BridgeTroll
January 29, 2009, 09:25:49 AMBridgeTroll
January 29, 2009, 09:28:20 AMHere is some history of this Jacksonville based business...
http://www.frenchnovelty.com/c/AboutUs/About+Us.html
Our Company
Our company is a family owned business, started by the current owner's grandfather, in 1911, with a store in downtown Jacksonville, Florida. The first store specialized in fine handmade blouses, linens, and ready-to-wear garments. When the second store opened in the 1920's, also in downtown Jacksonville, it was named French Novelty, since many of the items carried were imported from France, which was considered to be the fashion capital of the world. Of course, "novelty" stood for new. The Mizrahi family still operates three French Novelty stores serving Jacksonville, North Florida and South Georgia for over 97 years with a reputation for unique, quality fashions, incredible values, and excellent customer service.
copperfiend
January 29, 2009, 10:02:11 AMThere is a building that every time I see a photo of it, I get sick thinking about it being torn down. I believe it is the old Post Office.
Johnny
January 29, 2009, 10:26:55 AMVery disturbing... Some of those buildings are amazing. I wonder which were destroyed to build something new and which were just destroyed due to government incompetence. I can somewhat understand an owner from a time thinking he could build a nicer structure as it's not historical at the time and you have to keep with the Joneses, but city officials causing destruction is really unfortunate.
Ocklawaha
January 29, 2009, 10:30:55 AMMOVING HISTORY?
Photo 60, Maybe the best shot I've seen of a Jacksonville Traction Company open-air streetcar. Today of course Tampa and several other cities have ONE. We had a fleet of them, and there is some very slim chance that at least one or two are built into a chicken coop, storage shed, or your own Florida Room. I anyone on these boards hear of metal in the walls, or roof, or down at so and so's is an old bus thing... SEND ME A PM!
Photo 61 , A good shot of the largest class of the Jacksonville streetcars. He is pointed to the right side o the photo - down the hill. (wonder if this is where the cursed blue bricks were?) These were called "Stone and Webster TURTLEBACKS" (Stone and Webster was a Boston Based streetcar and utility management company). Bigger then the current JTA buses, quiet and powerful - note the hill he is going DOWN! Dallas has 5. Some MAYBE with Jacksonville roots, but only one restored. The ride quality is superior to the Pearle Thomas (todays Thomas Bus) cars in New Orleans, and should be a DON'T MISS ride in DALLAS for all Jacksonville residents who visit.
BTW! JTA? MIKE? SCOTT? JAMES? MIKE? FDOT? JHS? HELLO...
Dallas has 5. Spell that FIVE turtlebacks. They need funds to help restore one more to their fleet.
Uh? THEY NEED FUNDS! WE NEED ONE OF OUR TYPE STREETCARS! HELLO!
(and YES I have talked with them and they are interested in some horse trading...shipyard assembly? Donations? Mr. Weaver... Where ARE YOU? Teal Blue streetcars would be historic BECAUSE our streetcar system allowed school children to "paint" streetcars in a coloring book... The favorite designs were put on the streets... who's to say we DIDN'T have a Teal Blue Streetcar.
Ah Shucks, A DESIRE NAMED STREETCAR.
OCKLAWAHA
copperfiend
January 29, 2009, 10:58:10 AMI found this:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/194
thelakelander
January 29, 2009, 11:08:00 AMI went back and added the building name, location, and present site use for most of the images. This may answer a few of the questions raised above.
Jason
January 29, 2009, 11:11:48 AMThose pictures made my stomache cringe. There are so many beautiful structures lost to the wrecking ball for parking garages and vacant lots its sickening!
Great collection of photos Lake, and great work compiling them and sharing.
copperfiend
January 29, 2009, 11:13:42 AMGreat collection of photos Lake, and great work compiling them and sharing.
Not to mention department stores.
stjr
January 29, 2009, 11:35:16 AMI have lived in Jax all my life and have sadly watched gradually as one by one many of these outstanding buildings have been destroyed. Many of these buildings would likely be national landmarks today with their distinctive designs. Not only is this a great loss to Jax, but to the state of Florida as, for many of the past decades, much of Florida's history was Jax, not Miami, Orlando, or Tampa.
As continues today, Jax leaders have lacked an appreciation for what is and what could be. "Vision", "planning", "backbone", and "creative thinking" are little known concepts here. Qualitative factors are dispensed with to just get things done now without consequences for tomorrow (just like the grand jury saying get the courthouse started without delay - with no comment about its shortcomings).
Jax has mostly lived with an insecurity complex - always trying to be the next "big city". In the process to fast track growth at any expense, it has lost site of its character and has become a near soulless city having cast aside its ancestry and history. That Jax has treated many of its assets as disposable has had the effect of often making the City itself disposable. Its hard to feel attached to a physical environment that is plain, plastic, artificial, devoid of character, cold, incoherent, and absent of rooted history.
Doctor_K
January 29, 2009, 11:37:45 AMI'm so glad so many of those great buildings were removed in the face of, and for the sake of, 'progress.' It makes me ill to think all of those have been turned into surface lots and parking decks. And yet we still hear that "there isn't sufficient parking downtown."
(snort)
Enfuriating.
GideonGlib
January 29, 2009, 12:36:51 PMI remember one or two of these building and have heard of others from older family members, but seeing them together like this makes me very sad. How amazing was that post office building?
downtownjag
January 29, 2009, 12:47:08 PMGreat photo's, does anyone have old photo's of The Ambassador Hotel in it's prime? I love that building and it seems to be salvagable... thanks
jeh1980
January 29, 2009, 01:38:44 PMGreat collection of photos Lake, and great work compiling them and sharing.
Not to mention department stores.
As continues today, Jax leaders have lacked an appreciation for what is and what could be. "Vision", "planning", "backbone", and "creative thinking" are little known concepts here. Qualitative factors are dispensed with to just get things done now without consequences for tomorrow (just like the grand jury saying get the courthouse started without delay - with no comment about its shortcomings).
Jax has mostly lived with an insecurity complex - always trying to be the next "big city". In the process to fast track growth at any expense, it has lost site of its character and has become a near souless city having cast aside its ancestry and history. That Jax has treated many of its assets as disposable has had the effect of often making the City itself disposable. Its hard to feel attached to a physical environment that is plain, plastic, artificial, devoid of character, cold, incoherent, and absent of rooted history.
(snort)
Enfuriating.
No disrespect to anyone...but you guys are NUTS!!!
Great article and a great look back at history. One question still remains. Why are we still hating on are current administration and the few administrations from 50 years ago up until now? I don't think that they wanted to destroy history as we always thought we did. They wanted to make something good of it to replace what is demolished. There were some projects that were promising, but at time the administration might have hit a big snag somewhere. Funds were not available as they thought it were and many of the project were dead and forgotten. They gambled and we lost. But sometimes it not their fault. They WANT to make things happening. But then there were a lot of times they did make something happened. A lot of those demolished building soon turn into modern skyscrapers. Jacksonville has gotten some height over the years. And yet we still murmur and complain and still mourning the lost of those other "treasures" from the past. And a few of them were just as condemned. Are we still dying in the yesteryears. That's got to suck! BIGTIME! I've seen a lot of surface lots and imagining what commercial space will they one day build replacing them with. I know we are missing some more skyscrapers and I think that the adminstration can still have the will power to fill in some gaps with we encourage them enough. We do need to save our history, but let's not die in the yesteryears. This is the time now to recover and rebuild what was once lost and to replace those surface lots with something.
JaxByDefault
January 29, 2009, 01:40:07 PMSo, Jacksonville was once full of the Prairie Style, Art Nouveau, Key West / New Orleans Vernacular, Flagler Romanesque revival, and other architectural styles that now make other cities famous tourist destinations. In terms of sheer loss of U.S. buildings with distinctive historical significance, Jacksonville has to be near the top of the list. I do not know of another city that so systematically detroyed nearly every example of such distinctive local and regional architecture. It's no accident that Jacksonville now struggles to find an identity.
copperfiend
January 29, 2009, 02:01:54 PMJaxbyDefault, you are correct. The sad thing to me is that the mentality of those in charge is the same now as it was 50 years ago.
I also think nationally that Jacksonville has a reputation as a "new city" along the same lines as Orlando or Las Vegas when in reality we have a rich history.
thelakelander
January 29, 2009, 02:05:23 PMWe're probably near the top, but a few Southeast cities that come to mind are Norfolk, Charlotte and Tampa. However, excluding Tampa, the other two have been able to overcome their mistakes from decades past.
archiphreak
January 29, 2009, 02:26:24 PMLakelander,
Do you have a map showing all of the demolished lots that you've found? I'm planning a series of design charrettes and I think it would be interesting to take these abandoned lots that use to be sites of high density architecture and see what could be come up with for new solutions. Let me know. thanks.
thelakelander
January 29, 2009, 02:42:03 PMI do not have a map but since the locations are known, one could be created with ease.
Jason
January 29, 2009, 03:09:08 PMDidn't the "Downtown Frankenstein" series have a lot of images showing all that's been demolished?
Could be a good start archiphreak.
heights unknown
January 29, 2009, 03:24:16 PMUrban renewal? What urban renewal? I wish there had been some kind of urban renewal or a semblance of it. Most of these buildings came down in the 60's and on into the 70's and early to mid 80's; and guess what? Parking lots graced where most of them stood for quite some time and there still are empty lots in downtown where some of these buildings stood. I respectfully disagree with the urban renewal indication; but back in the day I was yearning for urban renewal in my beloved Jax and it really never happened.
If most of these buildings had not been demolished/razed, knowing Jax leadership, I wonder how long they would have remained empty until they were restored, refurbished or redeveloped? I guess the leadership back then really didn't know what to do so they demolished them in hopes of someone coming along and spurring an "urban renewal."
Heights Unknown
jeh1980
January 29, 2009, 03:51:19 PMIf most of these buildings had not been demolished/razed, knowing Jax leadership, I wonder how long they would have remained empty until they were restored, refurbished or redeveloped? I guess the leadership back then really didn't know what to do so they demolished them in hopes of someone coming along and spurring an "urban renewal."
Heights Unknown
samiam
January 29, 2009, 04:58:27 PMWhat was Jacksonville’s signature architecture before 1920? At one time I heard it was red brick with a white front porch. Does anyone have any info on this.
thelakelander
January 29, 2009, 05:06:24 PMI would say Prairie School architecture. It was pretty dominant during the building boom following the Great Fire of 1901. The links below have images of local examples.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/288/120/
http://www.prairieschooltraveler.com/html/fl/fl.html
heights unknown
January 29, 2009, 05:22:41 PMWell said stjr in your previous post about why Jax demolished most of its buildings and landmarks, well said. And this is exactly what has happened to Jax (I agree with you) and in my opinion; soulless, inferiority complex, mindless, mortgaging today for tomorrow; the consolidation thing in 1968 sums it all up relative to how Jax really thought about itself during that time; why consolidate? I believe it was more than just cutting costs by bringing city and county governments together; I believe it had a lot to do with the city really losing it's focus, confidence, character, not to mention population and overall decline in just about every bit of infrastructure and sector of City government and leadership.
Heights Unknown
Keep It Wheel
January 29, 2009, 05:44:07 PMi wish i could have experienced the jacksonville in these photos rather than the corporate monoliths i've grown up with. i commute by bike through these areas of town everyday looking at the few remaining historical buildings, vacant and run down. one can only ask themselves, " why cant jacksonville be like ( insert another successful historical driven city )?" you know the cities im referring to (everyone has a favorite). i think the real tear jerkers however are the vacant lots and parking structures. it goes to show how detrimental car dependency and poor public transportation really was and still is. as annoyed as i am with the current state of jacksonville's downtown and surrounding areas, i am still delighted that i am in this city and am anticipating any change that will pull this city out the ruts it has been worn into. the photos are for me and im sure other purveyors of my generation, a true inspiration of what has been and hopefully, what can be again. thanks for the post. - J.O.B Zombie Bikes
stjr
January 29, 2009, 06:50:19 PMI wonder what economic incentives and/or tax breaks are given for carrying, maintaining, preserving, and restoring historic structures? There should be a process for designating structures for such programs.
And just like we have "greenbelt" status with respect to property taxes to help preserve agricultural properties, so should we have a "historic-belt" status for desired preservation targets to relieve the economic stress of carrying the properties' pre-rehabilitation improvements. Many property owners may be tearing down vacant buildings that have no immediate prospects of resuse without major upgrades to alleviate being taxed on the square footage. With a vacant lot, only raw land will be taxed.
Liability issues are also a concern with buildings. Joe/Regency just tore down the structures at Atlantic and Hendricks to avoid such exposures until they are ready to build.
We need to make it cheaper and easier to carry historic building stock until its time for development and restoration arrives.
stjr
January 29, 2009, 06:53:50 PMHeights Unknown
Heights, thanks for the support. Now, if we could only get our concerns addressed!
P.S. I plan to start new topics soon on another big opportunity missed by our leaders and one that is still available.
Ocklawaha
January 29, 2009, 09:11:56 PMI think you misunderstand a lot that is going on here. We are probably the largest collection of Jacksonville Lovers anywhere on the web. Most of us are professionals or retired professionals and many of those professions: Urban Planning, Development, Transportation have a direct impact on our city. But in order to make an intelligent decision for our future, we MUST learn to confess the mistakes that have taken place in the past and correct those developments.
No, they were realestate men and attorneys, or men otherwise invested in some local company whereby they could line their pockets. ANY businessman that went so far as to buy a site, invest millions in clearing it, then say, "Oop's, we hit a snag." would not survive in business. Sadly we have let them survive in the public sector.
Odd that this happened to Jacksonville, over and over and over, 60+ times just in this article, yet it didn't happen to this extent anywhere else. Are we really that stupid?
A lot? Hardly. You do realize that Jacksonville was a city of nearly 100,000 persons when Miami had 6 people in it. MIAMI! In the middle of the nations biggest swamp, got it in gear and left us in their dust. We are still making excuses, yes we have 6 or so "skyscrapers" that we have collected over the past 30 years or so, and sadly we tore down 12 to get them. Just recently Miami had 70 under construction, 70 in a City that WE FINANCED into being. Don't you think we got off track somewhere?
Yes we complain, many of those buildings would be national treasures today. We might have been San Francisco, or New Orleans, or even St. Augustine on steroids, rather we are a collection of half finished, short changed projects, with a few spotty success story's mixed in.
Sorry Jeh, but this administration has no desire for anything more then pavement-concrete and oil. Our mayor can't run for reelection, so it really doesn't matter what he does for the next 2 years. Watch my words, he's going to sit and collect a check, reading to kids.
We can never recover what is lost, and if this group or groups like it doesn't blow the whistle on these fools nobody will hold them accountable. Moreover with the developers in charge, our once dense downtown is looking more and more like Regency Square by the day.
Jacksonville was like a fine polished apple, dense and sweet, unblemished in desirability. The developers are like a giant hammer. When the hammer strikes that apple, pieces fly all over the room, in between those pieces we have vacant space, empty lots, parking lots and homeless collections. Big Mistake, HUGE.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
January 29, 2009, 09:18:14 PMStjr, I'm looking forward to reading your new topics.
There are tons of incentive/tax credit opportunities out there. Unfortunately, most don't know much about the programs. I've learned about a few on my own and through the word of mouth from others over the years.
Most of the old city (basically everything other than Riverside/Avondale and San Marco) is located in Empowerment and Enterprise Zones. So there are several avenues to get incentive money or tax credits for both commercial and residential projects.
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville+Economic+Development+Commission/Business+Development/Business+Resources/Enterprise+and+Empowerment+Zones.htm
Downtown Jax Historic Preservation and Revitalization Trust Fund (page 15 of document)
http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/eyyvvqaqdpausg7nfdgqacnotnpzty2g4a6pw6dwopjh535sbpglypqi6yfgm4zsi7yb5hulgr7ktvw6qmhxnamzl5e/Incentive+Policy+7-29-02.pdf
Tax Incentives for Preserving Historic Properties
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Regulatory+Boards+and+Commissions/Historic+Preservation+Commission/Tax+Incentives+.htm
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Regulatory+Boards+and+Commissions/Historic+Preservation+Commission/Appendix+D+Tax+Incentives+.htm
http://www.nps.gov/hps/tps/tax/
http://ohp.parks.ca.gov/pages/1074/files/fed.pdf
Other State and Federal Incentives:
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville+Economic+Development+Commission/Business+Development/Business+Resources/State+and+Federal+Incentives.htm
Personally speaking, its much easier to deal with the State and Federal government than it is with the city. However, if you study all of your options early, there are ways to combine multiple programs to increase your savings.
stjr
January 29, 2009, 09:31:30 PMMost of the old city (basically everything other than Riverside/Avondale and San Marco) is located in Empowerment and Enterprise Zones. So there are several avenues to get incentive money or tax credits for both commercial and residential projects.
Actually, Lake, I think you will find that Riverside/Avondale and San Marco are outside of the federal Empowerment and State Enterprise zones. These zones were mainly set up to bring expanding businesses into distressed and low income neighborhoods with the hopes new jobs for area residents would be created. They offer next to nothing in the way of motivating historic preservation.
Likewise, I have found that most other so called incentives are one time hits to encourage similar business expansions or moves to the City.
What I was referring to was the more mundane reduction in carrying costs, on a ongoing basis, so that the property owner isn't forced to sacrifice what is there for instant rewards that offer little long term satisfaction.
P.S. I just posted one of my new topics about the Fuller Warren Bridge. I welcome your comments there.
thelakelander
January 29, 2009, 09:42:36 PMYes, Riverside and San Marco are outside of zones. So basically, every other neighborhood in the old city is in the zone. While they aren't set up to allow one to sit on property long term, they are helpful in making projects involving historic buildings feasible, especially the federal historic tax programs. Philly has a successful tax abatement program to encourage development in older built out areas, but its not specifically designed for historic structures. Any idea how Charleston, New Orleans, Savannah or even St. Augustine keep their buildings from coming down? Is there a special program or do those cities just have the balls to not allow useless demolition?
Coolyfett
January 29, 2009, 09:45:38 PMLake, man I am closing my eyes trying to imagine all of these corners and blocks and some of them just don't seem right...The angles in the pics are very confusing man. How are you getting the street names just from the pictures alone? Thanks for showing the Windsor Hotel, I don't think that place had much mention. I guess it would be too much work to take the same picture from the same angle, but it is really confusing trying to figure out where the photographer is actually standing when these picture were taken. Also seeing these pictures raises the value of The Carnegie, The St. James Building, The 3 buildings on Laura (Bisbee & friends), Union Terminal, DVAL Building & a few others that came up when these were up. I would also say the Modern Sites need to extensively photographed. Places like The Landing, Jax Stadium, Vet Arena, AT&T Building, etc who is to say what will happen to those buildings in the next 100 years, those pictures would become great for the future generations of Metro Jax types. I know you have many of your flicks archived. How interesting would it be for someone in 2109 looking back at the flicks you took today?
stjr
January 29, 2009, 10:41:59 PMMy impression from visiting these cities is that most, if not all, value their history so much as to prohibit designated historic structures from being removed or modified, at least externally, since it can impact the ambiance of their historic districts. I think people in Jax would be stunned to see how restrictive these areas are on "messing with history"
My emphasis on the reduction in carrying costs was to address times such as we are in now where it may be next to impossible to redevelop an historic property due to it's failing economic feasibility (i.e. no way to make your money back) or unavailable financing. This would require you to carry the property for an extended period until better times arose.
jeh1980
January 29, 2009, 11:37:38 PMSorry Jeh, but this administration has no desire for anything more then pavement-concrete and oil. Our mayor can't run for reelection, so it really doesn't matter what he does for the next 2 years. Watch my words, he's going to sit and collect a check, reading to kids.
We can never recover what is lost, and if this group or groups like it doesn't blow the whistle on these fools nobody will hold them accountable. Moreover with the developers in charge, our once dense downtown is looking more and more like Regency Square by the day.
Jacksonville was like a fine polished apple, dense and sweet, unblemished in desirability. The developers are like a giant hammer. When the hammer strikes that apple, pieces fly all over the room, in between those pieces we have vacant space, empty lots, parking lots and homeless collections. Big Mistake, HUGE.
OCKLAWAHA
[/quote]
I could understand...I think
Ocklawaha
January 30, 2009, 12:00:45 AMJEH, No forgivness needed man, your opinion counts too. I just wanted you to see a bit through our eyes as city professionals, and many world travelers on this site. We don't give up...EVER. But we do look back fondly at our recent and now lost past.
I am one of the oldest folks around this site, and I've been hammering on the JTA and transit since my "SKYWAY WARS" back in 1980. Still hold my ground... WE NEED RAIL!
You sound like a younger person, and if so, you should be commended on your love and support of your city. Keep it up and come join us.
OCKLAWAHA
zoo
January 30, 2009, 09:17:36 AMJust as tragic as what has been lost is what is being designed now!!! Many comments have been made on this site regarding KBJ, the courthouse, renovations of historic buildings that don't fit with the urban fabric (Haverty's), etc.
When I think about this, I get so angry about the GOB network in Jacksonville that keeps the assignment of important projects/contracts going to the same designers over and over again. I am particularly disgusted by Daniel Davis' effort to work into the City bid process an over-weighting of the "proximity to Jacksonville" element of the bid.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that Jacksonville wants to keep work local when it can, but I believe the more important weighting, most of it, should go to TALENT. I'm not saying there isn't talent in this market - far from it. All I'm saying is Mr. Davis, and Jacksonville, are on a course to enable the languishment of our local talent through gifting assignments, rather than helping it to grow in a competitive environment.
If there were a threat of greater or deeper talent pools from elsewhere getting Jacksonville assignments, maybe Jacksonville firms/contractors would do more to ensure they can attract, and continue training, their local assets.
In this type of market-based environment, all boats have to RISE to remain competitive. Instead, in Jacksonville, it's protect our own to its detriment and mediocrity. Shame on Daniel Davis and the GOB network that still reigns here.
SunKing
February 03, 2009, 09:48:17 AMFood for thought. Jacksonville has suffered from poor leadership as has any city but blaming "leadership" one only needs to look in the mirror as Mayor Peyton ironically enough just recently suggested. Lots of blame flying around but all I read on this post is a bunch of griping and complaining.
I know that there are folks here that have committed time, talent and treasure to bringing commuter rail to our beloved city. I have read some fine postings supporting it and if it ever does happen it is through the relentless efforts of these individuals.
Have any of you whiners out there actually decided to take on the restoration of one of these structures? Put your money and efforts where your mouth is. I am not talking about charettes! The last thing anyone wants to hear is how they are supposed to spend their money! I am talking about making something actually happen.
Hey, I love these old structures too and have been involved in quite a few of these projects myself, so it burns me up to hear all this talk and no action. Instead of bemoaning what is lost why not save what is still here. I am not talking about slapping a historic designation on it or incentives either. This takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears my friends.
You want leadership? Just look in the mirror.
stephendare
February 03, 2009, 01:04:39 PMJason, how hard would it be to create a google 3d map of old jacksonville?
stephendare
February 03, 2009, 01:07:54 PMI know that there are folks here that have committed time, talent and treasure to bringing commuter rail to our beloved city. I have read some fine postings supporting it and if it ever does happen it is through the relentless efforts of these individuals.
Have any of you whiners out there actually decided to take on the restoration of one of these structures? Put your money and efforts where your mouth is. I am not talking about charettes! The last thing anyone wants to hear is how they are supposed to spend their money! I am talking about making something actually happen.
Hey, I love these old structures too and have been involved in quite a few of these projects myself, so it burns me up to hear all this talk and no action. Instead of bemoaning what is lost why not save what is still here. I am not talking about slapping a historic designation on it or incentives either. This takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears my friends.
You want leadership? Just look in the mirror.
I have participated in a few of the restorations myself, Sunking. It is blood sweat toil and tears my friend. Many of the posters here are also springfield riverside san marco restorationists as well so there is a lot of investment represented.
The current problem is that the buildings needing saved are in the hands of people uninterested in action, the City itself being one of the worst offenders.
Action is needed, thats for sure.
By a simple pen stroke, the City could allow the buildings to be occupied and renovated and breathe new life into the historic elements of the city.
stjr
February 03, 2009, 01:40:38 PMTo do something for love is admirable. However, many people may have the love but not the time, abilities, or financial resources. Also, "lovers", acting alone, are not likely to get anything done on a grand scale or coordinated basis. They need more help.
Further, the benefits of historic preservation are enhanced greatly by creating an historic "environment" that heightens the senses and envelops us with a greater appreciation of what it was like to experience some past time. [Movie scenes are intended to be historically accurate in every detail - they don't just throw in a few token period pieces and leave it to you to convert modern images into past objects.] These environments also create additional financial "value" much as is accomplished when, say, a bunch of entertainment venues cluster together to create a destination district.
Admirable and necessary as historic preservation is, to achieve it on any scale successfully, it will still take making the "numbers work". Due to the risks and added costs of restoring an existing building vs. building new, this likely means, at least initially, financial assistance and/or incentives (the carrot). To create a proper, or at least a threshold, environment (which yields additional financial motivation per above) takes regulation (the stick). Both take people buying into the concept (leadership).
While a private-public partnership is necessary, usually it will be the public/government side that needs to take the first step as this is, by far, the hardest rock to move. This has never happened on a focused, large scale, and consistent basis in Jacksonville.
stephendare
February 03, 2009, 01:42:31 PMLake, do we have a solid enough foundation of photos to be able to reconstruct downtown from the street level before the 'redevelopment' turned into 'redynamiting' ?
Jason
February 03, 2009, 01:43:34 PMA fairly accurate map would be extremely tough. But a simplistic 3D block image at the old structures using the available images and aerials wouldn't be too bad, just time consuming.
samiam
February 03, 2009, 01:47:02 PMThe city of Jacksonville does very little to assist homeowner in the restoration of there house. I have seen cases where a house was a boarding house or rental property for years. the owner had a dumpster delivered and started working on restoring the house and within 2 weeks the city safety Nazis slaps a condemned sigh on the house. all the while making smart @ss comments and laughing to them self's while doing it
stephendare
February 03, 2009, 01:49:29 PMthats usually the result of one of the neighbors filing a complaint with the city. In springfield and riverside its a problem. The slumlords are hunky dorey, but the restorationists are just pirannha chow.
Ethylene
February 03, 2009, 01:54:49 PMThe City was officially informed last week that it will get a little over $26 million in funding from U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development through its Neighborhood Stabilization Program. Those funds will be used to help area developers rehabilitate abandoned and foreclosed properties.
from: http://jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php
Granted this won't help the city's center but can/should be leveraged to maximum advantage in our historic communites!
stephendare
February 03, 2009, 01:58:30 PMhttp://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/communitydevelopment/programs/neighborhoodspg/
Here is a link to the actual department website on the grants.
Cool post, ethylene.
samiam
February 03, 2009, 02:21:51 PMI seems all grants are geared toward the rich and the lower income people. there is no way the middle class can get ahead. wish I could.
SunKing
February 04, 2009, 09:52:53 AMIts not just money, Samiam, it is "blood sweat and tears" as stephendare put it. It is also a tremendous risk. And that is my point entirely, I have done quite a few renovations myself, I love historical buildings. But it is a disincentive to anyone willing to make that sacrifice to have to put up with a bunch of folks with their hands in their pockets with nothing to share but an opinion. A code enforcer is just doing his/her job, not that I like it anymore but there is a difference.
I didn't have any money,(I still don't btw) but there is a lot of opportunity downtown right now. Prices are depressed lenders are reeling with this toxic inventory. If this is a passion, don't just sit on the sidelines, make it happen.
samiam
February 04, 2009, 01:08:05 PMI am currently working on my second historical house since 2005 the one I currently live in is an apartment building that i converted into a single family house built in 1911. The next one is an ex boarding house built in 1908. What makes it difficult for a middle class guy like me is there is not that much incentive to take on multiple projects. If there was federal, state or city incentives the historic districts would become a show place in no time. If the incentives where in place more people that know how to restore these historic property would be inclined to take on more than just there own house. I for one took on a second project just to made my little corner of the world better and when that second house is done I will probably take on a third
SunKing
February 04, 2009, 01:55:03 PMNice work then. Sounds like you are doing your part.
I will tell you that the best thing that a city can do is raise taxes on derelict buildings. Simple as that. Less incentive to buy and hold which is the main problem downtown. If I am an investor and I can buy a building downtown and keep a low tax basis, I have less risk just sitting on it than someone that spends money rehabbing, leasing, paying expenses, only to get dinged by the city. They will tell you that the historic designation holds taxes for 10 years, which it does but it is a pain in the ass! Just hold the taxes for 10 years anyway. Or raise taxes on unimproved buildings and lower them for improved.
thelakelander
February 04, 2009, 01:59:36 PMIn Tampa, this led to the demolition of several historic buildings. It was cheaper for property owners to sit on surface parking lots than continue to pay on old derelict buildings.
samiam
February 04, 2009, 03:03:41 PMI believe that the way to improve and save historic building is to reward action (new concept in modern America) in the form of incentives for anyone. Include the middle class as well, we are the ones paying most of the taxes. Don,t limit the grants to lower income. a person has the ability to pay more out of packet if they make more. If you have restored a historic building you know it is not a cheep endever and not for the weak of heart, It will nickle and dime you to death. I do not believe penalizing the large property holders will save any of the historic building in Jacksonville, but if an individual has a history of buying building and holding on to them, not improving them then maybe they should be forced to sell at fair market value.
lindab
February 04, 2009, 04:58:32 PMThis is a really interesting discussion. We are seeing this in the case of Public School #4, Annie Lytle School.
The school is neither abandoned or foreclosed but it is derelict and an attractive nuisance to vandals especially young kids. The property has been undeveloped for over 20 years. If the taxes went up on the place, it would be a goner.
If it weren't for citizens who care about historic preservation coming to council meetings,cleaning debris, removing graffiti, mowing lawns, nailing up window coverings, & calling the cops on trespassers, this place would be dust. No laws, no organizations, no grants are saving this building presently.
stjr
February 04, 2009, 07:38:25 PMThe same point I made in my previous posts on this thread. Refer back to my comments about greenbelt/history-belt status. No one owns/holds a structure just to sit on it forever. They either want to tear it down and build anew or reuse it when the time is right.
Lowering the carrying costs on an un-restored building will allow the owner more patience in deciding its future and/or the ability to wait until the times are right to justify the risks and costs of a restoration. This beats tearing it down just to remove the higher improved tax value but otherwise mostly worthless (prior to restoration) building and replacing it with a revenue raising parking lot at lower taxes.
jbovinette
February 10, 2009, 08:00:53 AMI wish I was able to see these old buildings. I never really got the chance to see these. I'm only 28 and since i've been coming to Jacksonville I can only remember the tearing down and the construction that has continued for as long as I can remember. It's sad that they are all being demolished. Those buildings said so much about Jacksonville and the growth of the south and the tourism of Florida. Im so happy that the Jacksonville Terminal was spared.
Ocklawaha
February 10, 2009, 09:33:52 AMI will tell you that the best thing that a city can do is raise taxes on derelict buildings. Simple as that. Less incentive to buy and hold which is the main problem downtown. If I am an investor and I can buy a building downtown and keep a low tax basis, I have less risk just sitting on it than someone that spends money rehabbing, leasing, paying expenses, only to get dinged by the city. They will tell you that the historic designation holds taxes for 10 years, which it does but it is a pain in the ass! Just hold the taxes for 10 years anyway. Or raise taxes on unimproved buildings and lower them for improved.
This is also exactly why untold thousands of miles of railroad were abandoned between 1960 and 1990. They couldn't afford to continue to pay taxes on land, interstate commerce, transportation, and school districts, if the lines fell below a certain level. So we simply lost them. Today we are spending BILLIONS to rebuild many of those same lines.
Watch the old Seaboard Route along North Main all the way to Savannah (it's also mostly abandoned) but being the shortest route, bet this is where the high speed rail will be laid out.
OCKLAWAHA
mtraininjax
March 17, 2009, 12:31:47 AMNumber 50 shows the great downtown post office on the left side. It was a shame to tear it down for a bank building....
stjr
May 05, 2009, 01:54:53 AMHere is another view of the Germania Building on Riverside Avenue, Brooklyn:
barberofdeville
June 28, 2009, 05:57:44 AMMakes me want to cry. WoW downtown JAX was beautiful. Reminds me of Louisville...well before they tore down all those buildings.
Ocklawaha
June 28, 2009, 10:28:09 AMGreat avatar jbovinette. Welcome aboard! wish I could walk all of you through a movie of that terminal when it was live. They tore down much more then remains today as it contained much more then the headhouse station (the big 1919 vintage - so called Prime Osbourne). There were hundreds of platforms, tunnels, extra buildings, interlocking towers every where... Beaver Street Tower lasted until your lifetime, but Myrtle Interlocking was even larger then today's "Amshack". There was St. Johns Interlocking tower, Roundhouse, Shops, Coach yards, the Railway Post Office with it's own back in tracks, and the Worlds Largest RAILWAY EXPRESS station. JIA has never seen the day when it was half as busy as Jacksonville Terminal. We REALLY dropped the ball when we allowed Amtrak to dictate stops and location, and allowed the railroads just to take it all down.
An average of 15 MILLION passengers a year came through that station in it's lifetime... They're all "flying" through Orlando today. Yesterday while in Mickeyville, I watched the Silver Meteor at the platform with 300+ passengers on and off... Thinking all along, HOW STUPID CAN WE BE??
OCKLAWAHA
Flipside
June 28, 2009, 12:02:39 PMDid anyone know that Ocklawaha Valley Railroad is Florida's Lost Railroad? In fact, Robert Mann not only knew this but launched a fan club in its honor in 2007. As of this date, he is still its only member.
“A railroad history, big plans, great route, all combined to make this the little train that couldn’t fail. Evil forces, empires, nabobs and just plain dumb bad luck, made it the little train that couldn’t win”.
Apparently, the Ocklawaha Valley Railroad also has a fan club that can't win.
Ocklawaha
June 28, 2009, 12:53:59 PMWELCOME ABOARD FLIPSIDE!
http://ocklawahavalley.ning.com/
BURBANK FLORIDA, the station isn't shown, and talk about loss, someone just tore down the old gingerbread church within the last 10 years... It WAS a home. Burbank was part of the huge land company promotion of "colonys" anchored to the RR.
THAT was the whole idea... hee, hee. I didn't think it would draw a soul, as not even the railroad nutz in Florida have a clue about that most interesting line. OOPS blew my cover.
Of course anyone can join, but don't expect any fan trips or newsletters. The site is updated as I uncover more of the weird twisted story of this line. One of the latest twists is the CORPORATION COMMISSION reports the company was "active" until 1974! If you want to hike it, it's got several great entry points and the old Rodman site is now a preserve, they are very proactive presservationists and love guests. Word of warning, that preserve has Rattle Snakes longer then the OV trains, better wait till COLD weather.
OCKLAWAHA
heights unknown
June 28, 2009, 06:53:57 PMWhat a travesty, crown jewels 80% of them and demolished, torn down, obliterated for the sake of parking lots (most of them) and failed developments or plans.
Heights Unknown
mtraininjax
June 30, 2009, 08:58:33 AMYes, we did have some great buildings at one time, but the problem is not the buildings, its the people. When the people stop using the buildings, they become outdated, eyesores, maintenance begins to lag and they are seen as expendable.
The lesson is to go see the buildings in exhistence, celebrate them with others. City Hall is still alive because the City leadership chose to use it and save it. Same for the Haverty's building.
Forget about saving what is already down, worry about saving what still remains and is not in the public favor.
nonamegrl
July 08, 2009, 10:00:04 AMJust so everyone knows... the mayor is threatening to get rid of ALL of the city's efforts for historic preservation if the tax increase isn't approved...
this could rid the city of landmarks, historic districts and a loss of anything and everything else that's left of Jacksonville's hey day.