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Tale of the Tape:
Oklahoma City Population 2011: 591,967 (City); 1,278,053 (Metro) - (incorporated in 1889)
Jacksonville Pop. 2011: 827,908 (City); 1,360,251 (Metro-2011) - (incorporated in 1832)
City population 1950: Jacksonville (204,517); Oklahoma City (243,504)
City Land Area
Oklahoma City: 607.0 square miles
Jacksonville: 757.7 square miles
Metropolitan Area Growth rate (2010-2011)
Oklahoma City: +2.00%
Jacksonville: +1.09%
Urban Area Population (2010 census)
Oklahoma City: 861,505 (ranked 51 nationwide)
Jacksonville: 1,065,219 (ranked 40 nationwide)
Urban Area Population Density (2010 census)
Oklahoma City: 2,098.0 people per square mile
Jacksonville: 2,008.5 people per square mile
City Population Growth from 2000 to 2011
Oklahoma City: +85,835
Jacksonville: +92,405
Convention Center Exhibition Space:
Oklahoma City: Cox Business Services Convention Center (1970) - 100,000 square feet
Jacksonville: Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center (1985) - 78,500 square feet
Connected to or across the street from Convention Center:
Oklahoma City: Renaissance (311 rooms), Sheraton Hotels (395 rooms), Courtyard by Marriott (225 rooms), Colcord Hotel (108 rooms)
Jacksonville: N/A
Tallest Building:
Oklahoma City: Devon World Headquarters - 900 feet
Jacksonville: Bank of America Tower - 617 feet
Fortune 500 companies 2009 (City limits only):
Oklahoma City: Chesapeake Energy (229), Devon Energy (232),
Jacksonville: CSX (226), Winn-Dixie Stores (363), Fidelity National Information Services (425), Fidelity National Financial (472)
Urban infill obstacles:
Oklahoma City: Urban renewal and building fabric demolition has hurt downtown's connectivity with urban core neighborhoods.
Jacksonville: State & Union Streets cut off Downtown Jacksonville from Springfield.
Downtown Nightlife:
Oklahoma City: Bricktown
Jacksonville: East Bay Street
Common Downtown Albatross:
Both cities have a large number of surface parking lots.
Who's Downtown is more walkable?
Oklahoma City: 83 out of 100, according to walkscore.com
Jacksonville: 88 out of 100, according to walkscore.com
About Downtown Oklahoma City
Map of downtown Oklahoma City
Downtown Oklahoma City is currently undergoing a renaissance, one of the largest in the nation. Middle-class moves during the 1950s and 1960s left much of the inner city abandoned, and retail services declined. During the urban renewal of the early 1980s, almost 50 historic buildings and skyscrapers were demolished as part of the overall plan. Examples include the Biltmore Hotel, which made way for the I. M. Pei-designed Myriad Botanical Gardens, but this was at least a major urban renewal project completed as planned. Others were not, leaving vacant lots where buildings had stood. Many of the historic buildings remaining in the Central Business District were covered by new façades or adapted as Class-C office space. The removal of historic structures, which followed the decrease in population, left downtown without many retail options.
During this time, Oklahoma City had one of the worst job and housing markets in the country. Things changed for Oklahoma City in the early 1990s as a result of United Airlines rejecting the city as a maintenance hub, selecting Indianapolis instead.
This came together when the city laid out a tour for the executives and didn't fill in a weekend day. The following day the newspapers, radio and TV were blasting the news that the CEO had taken a rental car and did his own personal tour. He bluntly told the city that the trash, oil field pipe and equipment yards, unkept homes and general lack of pride led him to a cataclysmic decision for the city. At the time this went down, MJ's Robert Mann was a city councilman in a bedroom community northwest of OKC.
The airline told Oklahoma City officials that Indianapolis won because it offered a superior quality of life and that they couldn't see employees living in Oklahoma City. The City put together a task force, tour buses took the officials of OKC and the surrounding towns around the streets in an intensive idea session. That rejection led to the Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS) initiative being passed by voters in December 1993. This five year, 1 cent sales tax increase funded the implementation of nine major quality-of-life projects and the rest was history.
History of MAPS
Route of proposed modern streetcar line funded 100% by MAPS 3.
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It's hard to believe now as we look back that the original MAPS initiatives nearly didn't pass a vote of the people. Early polls showed less than fantastic support for the Metropolitan Area Projects, a bundle of 9 major Oklahoma City projects to be funded by a 5 year, 1 cent sales tax increase. But in December of 1993, MAPS squeaked by voters at 54%. The rest, as they say, is history.http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/okcmaps3.htm
Originally conceived by the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce and then-Mayor Ron Norick, MAPS included the following:
- Construction of a 20,000-seat, indoor sports arena (known originally as the Ford Center but now called the Chesapeake Energy Arena)
- Construction of a 15,000-seat ballpark (The Bricktown Ballpark)
- Construction of a new downtown library
- Construction of the Bricktown Canal
- Development of a streetcar transit system
- Development along the North Canadian River
- Renovations to the Civic Center Music Hall
- Renovations to the Cox Convention Center
- Renovations to the Oklahoma State Fairgrounds
Although there were delays and complications, most of the original MAPS goals were met. And the resulting success has been nothing short of phenomenal. Most would attribute directly to MAPS the revitalization in Bricktown as well the great prospects for the continued presence of the NBA in OKC.
The 2nd set of MAPS projects went before voters in 2001. Dubbed "MAPS for Kids," the initiatives included over 100 Oklahoma City area school projects, from extensive renovations to new school constructions. Funded again by sales tax, MAPS for Kids would cost around $470 million.
That sales tax expired in 2008. Naturally, the talk of MAPS 3 began...
MAPS 3
Mayor Mick Cornett brought up the idea in his 2007 State of the City Address.
An initial survey site, www.MAPS3.org, was then launched. Cornett's goal was to sample Oklahoma City residents on what they wanted to see happen next.
The early results, released in May of 2007, overwhelmingly favored public transit improvements such as street work, a light rail system, downtown streetcars and improved bus service.
Perhaps more important than the ideas themselves, though, was the fact that over 85 percent of respondents thought MAPS 3 was a good idea. Although the sample size was quite small, of course, this was a good indicator for future city improvements.
MAPS 3 was delayed in 2008 due to the city's pursuit of an NBA franchise. After the Seattle SuperSonics relocated and became the Thunder, the one-cent sales tax was continued in order to renovate the Ford Center.
Planning and Campaign
The sales tax extension for the Ford Center renovations expires at the end of March 2009. Mayor Mick Cornett and the city released the official plan for MAPS 3 on September 17, 2009.
The official plan called for a December 8, 2009 vote on a continuation of the one-cent sales tax for a period of 7 years and 9 months. The total $777 million would be used for the following:
- A new, approximately 70-acre central park linking the core of downtown with the Oklahoma River. The park would include a restaurant, lake, amphitheater, dog park, skating rink and other amenities. ($130 million)
- A new rail-based streetcar system of 5 to 6 miles downtown, a downtown transit hub to link streetcar, commuter rail and bus systems, and possibly increased funding for the building of commuter rail lines. ($130 million)
- A new downtown convention center on the south edge of downtown near the proposed park. ($280 million)
- Sidewalks to be placed on major streets and near facilities used by the public throughout the city. ($10 million)
- 57 miles of new public bicycling and walking trails throughout the City. ($40 million)
- Improvements to the Oklahoma River, including a public whitewater kayaking facility and upgrades intended to achieve the finest rowing racecourse in the world. ($60 million)
- State-of-the-art health and wellness aquatic centers throughout the city designed for senior citizens. ($50 million)
- Improvements to the State Fair Park public buildings, meeting halls and exhibit spaces. ($60 million)
- Contingency funds to cover unforeseen costs ($17 million)
Coming out in support of MAPS 3 were, obviously, the mayor and the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, as well as many other civic organizations, schools and businesses. They had a campaign website at www.yesformaps.com. On the other side of the issue were Oklahoma City's fire and police unions, among others. Their committee Not This MAPS claimed far more pressing concerns in the current economic climate.
Current Status
On December 8, 2009, MAPS 3 passed by a margin of 54 percent to 46 percent. Election board officials estimated a total voter turnout of 31 percent, significantly higher than most local elections. Final vote numbers were 40,956 yes and 34,465 no.
Automobile Alley
During the early and mid 20th century, Automobile Alley was the city's car dealership district. By the late 20th century, it had declined. Since the 1990s, efforts in the area have focused on historic preservation and the transformation of former automotive structures into upscale lofts, galleries, and offices.
According to Metro Jacksonville's Robert Mann, who lived in the area at the time, "during the first pre-MAPS tours, we walked Automobile Alley and learned some of the amazing things that took place there among automobile sales, parts distribution and oil companies. Many of the old buildings had faded signs from their glory days, we wanted to keep those in place. Today a few of those buildings are still empty, but the bright neon signs illuminate the streets every night anyway with words such as 'HUDSON' home of the legendary Hudson Hornet. It is a well preserved time capsule of the early auto industry."
Park Plaza
Midtown
Midtown is located just northwest of downtown Oklahoma City's business district.
American Farmers and Ranchers Mutual Insurance Company
St. Anthony's Hospital
Oklahoma City launched its bike share program in Spring 2012.
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The City of Oklahoma City launched its Spokies bike share program on Friday, May 18 to provide visitors, employees and residents with an environmentally-friendly, healthy and affordable transportation option for the downtown area. Spokies provides daily, monthly and annual memberships, each of which entitle users to unlimited 30-minute rides throughout the duration of their membership. Additional time can be purchased at a rate of $4 per hour.http://spokiesokc.com/links/okc-launches-spokies-bike-share-program/
“I spend a lot of time downtown, and Spokies will make it even easier for my friends and me to visit our favorite hangout spots – including the new community basketball court,” said downtown resident Greg Collins. “It’s great to see Oklahoma City offering different forms of transportation and promoting a healthy lifestyle.”
The solar-powered, self-serve Spokies kiosks will appear in 6 downtown locations, providing docking space for a total of 97 bicycles. Spokies kiosk locations include:
• The Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library
• The Oklahoma City National Memorial and Museum
• Plaza Court in Midtown (on Walker between 10th and 11th streets)
• Deep Deuce at Walnut at 2nd St.
• South side of Chickasaw Bricktown Ballpark
• Northeast corner of Reno and Robinson near Cox Convention Center
The Spokies program began with an Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block grant administered by the City of Oklahoma City’s Office of Sustainability. This grant was designed to promote energy efficiency, including alternative methods of transportation. According to Sustainability Director Jennifer Gooden, “Spokies will make it easier and more convenient to get around downtown Oklahoma City, reduce tailpipe emissions, and provide a healthy alternative to driving a car.”
Arts District
Oklahoma City's Arts District is anchored by Myriad Botanical Gardens. Myriad Botanical Gardens is a 17-acre botanical garden just south of the heart of downtown Oklahoma City. It was designed by renowned architect I.M. Pei and initial construction broke ground in 1977. The effort to establish this botanical garden was led by Oklahoma City oil pioneer, Dean A. McGee, founder and CEO of the Kerr-McGee Oil Corporation. The Crystal Bridge Tropical Conservatory is the primary focal point of Myriad Botantical Gardens. The Conservatory is a 224' long living plant museum featuring palm trees, tropical plants, flowers, waterfalls, and exotic animals.
The Cox Business Convention Center, along with the adjacent Myriad Botanical Garden, was the centerpiece of Oklahoma City's first major urban renewal project, the Pei Plan, in 1970.
The 18,203 seat Cheasapeake Energy Arena (background) opened in 2002, as a result of MAPS funding. The structure is now the home of the National Basketball League's (NBA's) Oklahoma City Thunder. The Thunder were known as the Seattle Supersonics before relocating to Oklahoma in 2008.
The Stage Center is the showpiece of the Arts Council of Oklahoma City's arts campus.
Oklahoma City Amtrak Station
Central Business District (CBD)
Currently, Oklahoma City's CBD is a major construction zone for "Project 180". Project 180 is an initative to transform downtown Oklahoma City 180 degrees by redesigning the majority of downtown's streets to include pedestrian and bicycle amenities.
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The initiative, named Project 180, is a four year, $160 million redesign of downtown streets, sidewalks, parks and plazas to improve appearance and make the central core more pedestrian friendly. Plans call for the addition of landscaping, public art, marked bike lanes, decorative street lighting, and additional on-street parking spaces.http://www.okc180.com/index.php?id=3
The Devon Tower was completed in March 2012 at the cost of $750 million. The 52-story, 844' tall tower is the corporate headquarters for Oklahoma City-based Devon Energy Corporation.
The 14-story Colcord Hotel was the city's first skyscraper when it was completed in 1909. Originally an office tower, the building was renovated and reopened as a luxury hotel in 2006.
Completed in 1911, the Skirvin Hilton was originally the 224-room Skirvin Hotel. This building closed in 1988 and sat abandoned for 19 years before being renovated and reopened by Hilton in 2007.
Standing 493' tall, the First National Center was the tallest building in Oklahoma City and 4th tallest building west of the Mississippi River when it was constructed in 1931. Today, it is the city's third tallest behind the Devon Tower and Chase Tower.
Deep Deuce
Deep Deuce was this historical African American section of downtown Oklahoma City. During the 1940s and 1950s, it was the region's epicenter of jazz musice and black culture. During the 1960's, this community was negatively impacted by the construction of Interstate 235. In the past decade, it has benefited from Oklahoma City's desire to make the urban core area a vibrant pedestrian scale place again.
Bricktown
A former early 20th century warehouse district, Bricktown is now a popular entertainment district just east of downtown Oklahoma City. During the 1990's, after losing a competition for a new airline maintenance plant to Indianapolis, IN, mayor Ron Norick visited that city and returned believing Oklahoma City needed a vibrant downtown to compete economically. This led to the development and passage of a massive redevelopment package known as the the Metropolitan Area Projects (MAPS). The creation of the Bricktown canal and the surrounding entertainment district was a result of Oklahoma City's MAPS. Today, MAPS is recognized as one of the most successful public-private partnerships undertaken in the country, exceeding $3 billion in investments.
Lower Bricktown
The walk score for OKC is currently lower then that of Jacksonville, but there isn't much logic in that. OKC is eminently more walkable if not downright more pleasurable then Jacksonville. Part of the reason is investment in infrastructure that is causing a rapid evolution into a cosmopolitan city with tree lined streets, the other reason is the weather. OKC, has a short cold winter, and a short extreme summer, everything in-between is some of America's best crystal clear, shirt sleeve weather with more perfect flying days then any other American City, as rated by the FAA.
Centennial Land Run Monument
The Chickasaw Bricktown Ballpark opened in 1998 and contains 13,066 seats. It is the home of the Oklahoma City RedHawks, the AAA affiliate of the Houston Astros major league baseball team.
The current demolition of the former I-40 viaduct is a part of the city's "Core-to-Shore" project. The Core-to-Shore project was created to relocate Interstate 40 further south of Oklahoma City's urban core and replacing it with a landscaped boulevard and greenway in the heart of the city. This project also allows the city to reconnect the downtown district with the shore of the Oklahoma City. It is one of several public projects being funded by MAPS3, which was approved by voters in 2009.
The original I-40 corridor was built through the south edge of downtown on former Rock Island and Katy Railroad rights of way. The old rail yards were home to some out of date warehousing and the various railroad spurs hadn't seen a train for many years. Today that land has been cleared again, this time the freeway has been removed. The former I-40 right-of-way is going to be used as a lineal parkway, a true 'Oklahoma Boulevard' with broad green spaces. There are also plans to make this roadway into a mass transit corridor which would eventually have streetcar or light-rail service. After an absence of 60 years, it appears that the rails are going back in place.
The sculpture of the Scissor Tail Fly Catcher, the state bird and symbol of the city, points skyward next to Union Station and straddles the I-40 pedestrian crossing and part of the freeway itself.
Oklahoma City is no longer a pass through, it has become a very desirable community with an increasingly vibrant urban core. Oklahoma City is not only a great place to visit, but an example to Jacksonville of what can happen in a similarly scaled city when it finally decides not to accept mediocrity.
Article by Ennis Davis and Robert Mann. Images by Robert Mann and Russell Conner.
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simms3
October 17, 2012, 07:51:13 AMAmazing city...in Oklahoma. Geography wise from a quality of life perspective it would seem there is nothing going for the city, but they have managed to make it an attractive, progressive place...and it still retains its conservative roots.
vicupstate
October 17, 2012, 08:25:11 AMI was throughly impressed with OKC during my visit last summer. Portland and Austin use to be just cities you knew the name of, but now you hear great things about them all the time. OKC will be the same way very soon. A little more time to let the word get out, is all it will take.
I would have never thought that anywhere in Oklahoma would be somewhere I would want to live, but I would have no problem living in OKC. It has a lot to offer and is surprisingly tolerant compared to my preconceived notions.
To those that think consolidation is Jacksonville's drawback, pay close attention to the land area and population figures listed in this article. OKC is not consolidated, it spreads across 2 or 3 counties I believe. But it is a large sprawled out city with low density, just like Jax. YET, all the MAPS votes were passed, when very few people even lived downtown when the votes were taken.
That is one excuse Jax just needs to drop.
thelakelander
October 17, 2012, 08:36:38 AMI've always looked at the initial MAPS and Delaney's BJP as similar initiatives. Both resulted in massive public projects in our downtown areas. However, the basics of simple pedestrian scale design and integration directly led to OKC's projects having a greater impact. Many of their projects were clustered together within a compact setting, creating significant change virtually overnight (ie. Bricktown area) while we spread our investments out too thin, in a downtown we treat as being over two miles in length. That simple difference can create momentum for additional quality-of-life enhancements or stall the original push.
Jason
October 17, 2012, 08:37:13 AMAnd despite all the negatives we harp on about Jax, the only difference between our potential and OKC's is the creative investment in the core. Jax still has much more to offer.
I-10east
October 17, 2012, 08:49:41 AMOklahoma City is probably the closest US city comparable city to Jax that I can think of; Especially when you consider that both have a lot of square mileage, similar city population, and one pro sports team in town. Our main shortfall here in Jax is lack of DT residential, which is basically synonymous, and will lead to more DT attractions.
thelakelander
October 17, 2012, 08:57:12 AM^I don't think having 2,500 DT residents is the shortfall we treat it as. OKC didn't have anyone downtown when the initial MAPS passed. Plus, we have twice as many residents downtown today than we had in the late 1970s when downtown still had May-Cohens, Sears, Ivey's, Furchgott's, JCPenney, and Levy's still in operation. We can immediately get passed the downtown population issue through the use of providing better connectivity with the 100,000 urban core residents surrounding it. I believe we have the potential to do just about anything we want if we put our heads to it.
fsquid
October 17, 2012, 09:06:31 AMthat looks like a fun place to be.
fsujax
October 17, 2012, 09:12:53 AMAnother city that has turned a ditch into an attraction. I bet you will not see dolphins jumping and playing in that water. Nice pics though.
Ocklawaha
October 17, 2012, 09:54:37 AMTrue, but then there are no alligators or bull sharks in them either!
Captain Zissou
October 17, 2012, 10:07:11 AMI think the Deep Deuce Grille might want to consider a name change.
Adam W
October 17, 2012, 10:08:20 AMToo true!
civil42806
October 17, 2012, 10:20:08 AMLived there during 97-98 was a great place to live, looks even better now
Ocklawaha
October 17, 2012, 10:53:13 AMSome things get lost in the translation when we speak of incredibly historic places with names that have been corrupted in modern slang. The "Deep Second" later called "The Deep Deuce," was the largest black neighborhood in Oklahoma City in the 1940's. It was the home of Jazz legends such as Charlie Christian and Jimmy Rushing. Ralph Waldo Ellison, born in Oklahoma City in 1914, wrote of the Deep Deuce in his book Trading Twelves. A lot of the old neighborhood is gone, but unlike LaVilla, Brooklyn and Fairfield locally, the demolitions were spotty and it's still easy to find some of that old fabric that made the place special. If you REALLY want to know more about the Deep Deuce check out 'Doug Dawg's' Blog: http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2006/12/deep-deuce-history.html
thelakelander
October 17, 2012, 11:12:51 AMTo be honest, while making the article, looking at the imagery provided and google earth aerials, the first thing that popped into my mind about Deep Deuce was LaVilla. Save for a few isolated buildings, the black culture of Deep Deuce and LaVilla are both forever gone, in my opinion.
vicupstate
October 17, 2012, 11:25:48 AMThe parallels between LaVilla and Deep Deuce are pretty striking. You're right that most of the original building stock was destroyed.
During my OKC trip, the Automobile Alley area reminded me of the potential for the Springfield Warehouse district. The Canal running through Lower Bricktown shows what McCoy's or Hogans Creek COULD be like, only they would be more authentic since they are natural creeks instead of man made. Myriad Gardens could be a great example for the Springfield Parks. Bricktown is a great role model for what the Sports district could transform into as well.
There really is no better city that Jax can be inspired by, yet be SOMEWHAT in the same league of, than OKC. At least among the places I have been.
Ocklawaha
October 17, 2012, 11:54:54 AMYeah, on a second look, I believe you are correct Lake. A large chunk of the Deep Deuce was wiped out by I-235 which laid an angled spear right through the old neighborhood. In looking for the old building stock, I wandered along the tracks east of Automobile Alley and found a fair amount of the old buildings still in place. East of the freeway along 2nd street it appears they have been removing building stock there too, but have left the larger public buildings in place. We didn't even do that in LaVilla, however going over the aerials it is pretty striking.
It seems odd, a twist of history, but somewhat magical at the same time to see that they have reincarnated the neighborhood as an urbanists utopia. It speaks to what any of our 3 demolished neighborhoods could be if we didn't fear progress. I would add to vicupstate's statements about what 'could-be' locally that OKC concentrated their renewal, I not sure spreading ours from the Sports District, to Springfield, to Riverside, would have anywhere near the impact.
thelakelander
October 17, 2012, 12:05:28 PMPedestrian scale clustering in the start is very important. That's how you can jump start something like a Bricktown in a short period of time. We've made similar investments over the same period. They have been too spread out to leverage the synergy which leads to additional private sector development, making the initial public investment seem much more massive than it actually was.
I-10east
October 17, 2012, 12:08:42 PMLets face it, Jacksonville can be average as far as new DT development, and still be a very attractive place to live. Cities like OKC in the dust bowl have no choice but to try very hard. United Airlines rejected OKC as a maintenance hub in favor of Indianapolis because they "couldn't see their employees living in OKC". That embarrassing moment got the ball rolling on OKC's DT renaissance. They don't have the benefit of consistent tourists like a Florida city like Jax, as shown on the population growth of the cities. So lets not kid ourselves here, OKC are doing some nice things, but don't act like it's some OKC runaway in comparison to Jax. I'll say that these two cities are VERY comparable. Some things OKC is stronger (mainly the DT area) and some things Jax are. When in comes to natural scenery, it's no contest, Jax by a mile. I agree with Jason's post.
thelakelander
October 17, 2012, 12:11:30 PMI-10east
October 17, 2012, 12:12:56 PM^^^I agree Lake, I'm just saying hypothetically, I'm not advocating for Jax to be mediocre.
vicupstate
October 17, 2012, 12:21:16 PMIf Hogan's Creek from the St. John's through to the Klutho/Springfield parks was given the 'canal' treatment that OKC (and Indy for that matter) gave to their man-made canals, that would provide a visual and pedestrian link between the Sports District and the Northbank/Cathedral area. Then 'Deep Deuce' style housing could be incorporated into the Cathedral district (Parks at the Cathedral being a start already). Restaurants and Bars could be built along Bay St. from Hogan's Creek to the existing E. Bay St. corridor via the Shipyards property.
All of that would be physically connected to each other and create snergy between them, as well as link together the Northbank core and sports districts that are disconnected today.
vicupstate
October 17, 2012, 12:29:49 PMOKC grew almost twice as fast as Jax in the last year.
As far as tourism, Jax proper, excluding the beaches, gets very little. Just pass-through motel stays mostly. I think it is past time for Jax to stop thinking it can rest on it's palm tree and beach laurels.
Charlotte has no particular geographic advanatages either, but which city is growing faster, OKC, Charlotte or Jax? Given the tremendous built-in advantages it has, Jax is underachieving, and the other two are overachieving. Jax has the POTENTIAL to surpass both, but potential doesn't make reality. Potential has to be exploited and that is what is missing.
Ocklawaha
October 17, 2012, 12:32:09 PMSorry I-10 East, I'm from Jacksonville and have governed in metropolitan OKC, believe me when I say Jacksonville is a hell of a lot closer to a modern day John Steinbeck novel then OKC is. Beaches? Oklahoma has great beaches and parks along its many lakes, including a few right in the metro area. How much water? How about 2,000 more miles of shoreline than the Atlantic and Gulf coasts combined. Ever stood on the prairie and watched a thunderstorm developing 50 miles away? Awesome. Awesome as in 'Field of Dreams' awesome. So one guy likes palm trees and the other likes rugged mountains and waterfalls... it's all relative isn't it?
The vibe in OKC, not just in downtown either, is simply: THIS IS AMERICAS NEXT GREAT CITY. They are blowing us out of the water. Sitting on the waterfront in downtown Jacksonville we can either cut bait or fish, this is no time for inaction, mediocrity, or apologetics.
Adam W
October 17, 2012, 04:58:01 PMAnd they have an NBA team now, too.
Not that it really means much in the scheme of things, but no one had mentioned it yet.
fsquid
October 17, 2012, 05:30:52 PMbeaches on a lake?
Jax_Spartan
October 17, 2012, 06:29:09 PMThe MAPS programs seem to have been very successful. Despite not being anywhere near as effective as OKC, Jacksonville's Better Jacksonville Plan looks very similar to the MAPS and it is interesting to compare the two. Wonder if Jacksonville should pass additional plans, much like OKC passed 3 MAP's? Of course it does not help that Jacksonville's BJP will not halt until possibly 2030.
***
Better Jacksonville Plan:
"The BJP half-penny sales tax will fund $1.5 billion of the entire $2.25 billion program. The remaining $750 million is funded through sources that already existed when BJP passed. The BJP sales tax, which raised Duval County's rate to 7 percent, must sunset no later than Dec. 31, 2030. The BJP work program is divided into four categories:
ROADS/INFRASTRUCTURE/TRANSPORTATION - $1.5 billion
PUBLIC FACILITIES - $525 million
- Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena - $130 mil
- Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville - $34 mil
- New Main Library - $95 mil
- New Library Branches / Renovations - $55 mil
- Duval County Courthouse - $211 mil
ENVIRONMENT/QUALITY OF LIFE - $165 million
TARGETED ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - $60 million
- Jacksonville Equestrian Center and Cecil Recreation Complex - $25mil
- Jacksonville Zoo Additions - $10mil
- Northwest Jacksonville Economic Development Fund - $25 mil
I-10east
October 17, 2012, 08:19:40 PMIf OKC is 'blowing Jax outta the water" how come it has added less population than Jax from 2000 to 2011? They built one significant skyscraper since 1984, and suddenly they are killing Jax, gotcha. Typical overreaction that every city in every nook and cranny is FAR better than Jax; I expect that on MJ. Way to stay consistent.
peestandingup
October 17, 2012, 08:27:00 PMSomeone's been in FL too long.
I-10east
October 17, 2012, 08:33:23 PMI've mentioned it, OKC and Jax are both one pro sport towns.
Ocklawaha
October 17, 2012, 09:25:08 PMFunny we were thinking the same thing, but then Florida has the Keystone Lake Chain, with several nice beaches, oh, and let's not forget Kingsley Lake, this shot is at Camp Blanding Recreation Area.
Ocklawaha
October 17, 2012, 09:59:58 PMFor a major corporate relocation, given the choices between Charlotte, OKC or Jacksonville, as it stands right now, we wouldn't have a prayer. This isn't 'typical overreaction' as you seem to think, this is based on the plans that were made and followed through, something we haven't done in a lifetime. Unless you've been on the street in downtown OKC within the last year, you don't know what your talking about. If you can work through your cloud of immature apologetics and consider that everything we print in MJ is aimed at turning decades of stagnation into a vibrant, exciting place to work and live, then perhaps you would understand. Open your eyes man. Anytime your local pride gets a tiny bit ruffled, you launch on MJ, our posters, and 'cities in every nook and cranny.' It's sad really, since your attitude is exactly the attitude that has led us to such mediocrity. If you can't change things your helpless - if you don't change things your hopeless.
I-10east
October 17, 2012, 11:25:55 PM^^^Every point that I made above, you cannot deny Ock, so my 'cloud of immature apologetics' as you call it, has truth to it. It's not me being overly-defensive of Jax, it's you and many others on here that are the typical jaded negative TU-esque Jacksonvillians that think every city is a mile better than here, and many of yall are overly protective of every 'learning from series' city, have you taken that into consideration? Of course not. Just because Jax doesn't have your beloved 'end all be all' trolley, every city that has or is gonna get one, is blowing us away on that point alone, gotcha. I don't have to go to tornado alley to know that it would not be a place that I would consider to live, or frankly would wanna visit. You know the city, and yall posted pictures of the highlights; I'm not blown away, Bricktown looks okay for a typical local weekend, but I'm definitely not buying an airline ticket. Last time I checked, Jax has more Fortune 500's than OKC, so that "we don't have a chance to land a big company, in comparison to OKC" comment is totally off-base.
Adam W
October 18, 2012, 02:56:16 AMSorry, I missed it.
Ocklawaha
October 18, 2012, 09:32:11 AMSorry to confuse you with facts, but "Jacksonvillians" isn't a word, the correct term is "Jaxsons."
Well considering cities that have invested in streetcars are enjoying a $3 to $1 return on investment based on new development dollars and we're not, I'm glad you got that point.
I think I understand your logic, each time we write about a city that has more going on then Jacksonville, you mark it off of your list of places to live or visit. At the rate we're going, within 10 years, you won't be able to go outside.
Of course your not, having to broaden your horizons and admitting that places beyond Duval are on the move, would no doubt be horrifying.
True enough about our fortune 500's, we also had Huguenot's and Conquistadors before OKC, but that will have no effect on our quality of life and thus our attractiveness from this day forward.
Jacksonville is falling behind our peers, in the case of Portland, Charlotte or OKC, WAY BEHIND. We can be active and move, or we can be the new Biloxi.
Adam W
October 18, 2012, 10:56:58 AMI think you're being pedantic. "Jaxsons" is no more correct than "Jacksonvillians." It is preferred by you and others, maybe, but it's simply a preference.
I, for one, never liked the term. It's certainly not the only correct term. I think there are plenty of issues with I-10's arguments. It seems like picking on him for what he chooses to call residents of Jacksonville is pretty weak.
Edit: I think you're right on as far as the rest of that post goes, though.
Ocklawaha
October 18, 2012, 11:43:47 AMI assure you that I had every intent of being meticulously pedantic and while I realize it's apoplectic to say so, the wildly apocryphal rumors that 'Jacksonvillians' has a place in history is untrue. Throughout the history and early documents of and about Jacksonville's citizens only 'Jaxsons' is used repetitively. Other then that, I was just having some fun at I-10East's expense, awaiting with eagerness his cerebral responses.
Adam W
October 18, 2012, 11:56:08 AMWhat I find crazy or curious is how one can look at the photos and not see that Jacksonville is in trouble. Or at least seriously lagging behind (which is probably a fairer description). You can see that OKC is doing more with its city center right now.
I don't think the issue is one of which is "better." Maybe Jax has more Fortune 500 companies or a better environment or more tourism or a better climate, etc etc etc. But the simple truth is we're not doing anything with all we have and we're watching our city slowly atrophy. Looks like the guys in Oklahoma decided to do something.
Anyway, I liked the article and I thought the photos were great. Made me reconsider a city I wouldn't have thought too much about before, if I'm being completely honest.
Ocklawaha
October 18, 2012, 12:12:20 PMGlad you liked it Adam, and you are correct, these article are designed to show that other places, perhaps much less endowed by nature, are moving forward. This is a window into the minds and ideas of cities everywhere which should give us pause when we continually try and force 1 + 1 to = 11. Jacksonville has stalled out and simply must get back in the race or be pushed further down the list of America's great cities.
I-10east
October 18, 2012, 01:10:03 PMI can't wait for the next Downtown Revitalization: Texarkana TX/AR megalopolis area. I guess that they blow us away too. Every dusty city in the Dust Bowl with no natural beauty blow us away, go figure. A city does a couple of nice regular things downtown, and suddenly it's a world class destination. Going to some store/restaurant/bar/movie in a suburban area, or even a place like Avondale/Riverside completely sucks. Now going to that same type place in downtown OKC/Charlotte etc with tall skyscrapers across the street, now that's utopia, hell I'm getting a hard on even just thinking about it!!! There's a HUGE difference!!! Downtown is completely EVERYTHING in a city. Stay negative MJ, it's only because we care....
Ocklawaha
October 18, 2012, 02:41:27 PMAre you off of your medication again?
peestandingup
October 18, 2012, 03:04:36 PMWell, first thing. There are such things as paragraphs. Makes reading rants on forums much easier when they're swatting away various topics of criticism.
And I dont understand. If you're unable to accept the faults of this town, just look at pictures to make up your mind & never, you know, actually visit or live in any others to give you any true insight (I don't know this for sure, just sounds like it), think everything is just peachy & are completely satisfied with Jax for being the mediocre town that it is (and it is, we're way behind whether you wanna believe it or not), then why even participate in discussions about changing it/comparisons to other towns??
Honest question, not trying to be mean.
I-10east
October 18, 2012, 07:23:19 PMFirst of all, just because I haven't been to that particular tornado alley city doesn't mean that I haven't been anywhere else other than Jax. I wasn't even born in Jax, I was born in NY. I like travelling all over the country since I have alot of time on my hands, and being single with no kids. I particularly like to visit theme parks for their coasters, and I been to plenty of major cities in between the trips. I went on a coast to coast trip down my favorite interstate back in July. I also served in the Army from 1997 to 2000, being stationed in Ft Carson, CO near Colorado Springs; Although I still haven't been overseas yet during that peace time era. So this stupid notion that I have never been anywhere other than Jax is hilarious. I'm not trying to be boastful or anything like that, just proving a point that Jax isn't the only city that I've been to.
All I said was that OKC & Jax are very comparable when it comes to the square mileage, city population, and having one pro team in town. I even gave OKC props for the DT area, and that's something that Jax can learn from. Does that mean that the entire CITY of OKC is stomping the entire CITY of Jax in the ground? I don't think so, hopefully I can have an opinion. We live in an internet age now, and information galore is abound, so that 'you gotta see for yourself' comment is very retro, this isn't 1986 anymore, and you're using a three-year old Encyclopedia Britannica; Google Earth will let you see street view of cityscapes, along with tons of oither info related sites; Believe me, I've done my research. Jason said that Jax has alot more to do than OKC, and I totally agree with him. Now if you're taking downtown boundaries, then that edge would go to OKC, but fortunately for me I don't live in a downtown boundary world with the Berlin wall on all four sides. I never said that everything is okay in Jax. Why do people put those words in my mouth? Bottomline, if two cities are comparable, and someone says one is basically hopeless, then expect me to chime in with a dose of reality.
thelakelander
October 18, 2012, 07:28:48 PMLooking at the que, here is the next line of cities we'll be profiling over the next few weeks:
London, Sarasota, Tallahassee, Naples, Nashville, Tulsa, Baton Rouge, Dayton, Savannah's port, and Detroit's Indian Village.
I-10east
October 18, 2012, 07:30:58 PMNo, I've been keeping up with the meds (non-mental medication BTW).
I-10east
October 18, 2012, 07:31:44 PMThanks for the update Lake.
Ocklawaha
October 18, 2012, 07:51:38 PMOkay man, I was just a bit worried about you when you pulled Texarkana alongside Jacksonville for a comparison... Though Texarkana does have a pretty cool old Union Station and it's still a transportation hub! BTW, we might toss Dodge City and Greensburg KS, into that mix Lake mentioned. Perhaps we'll catch Texarkana next year.
I-10east
October 18, 2012, 08:16:36 PMI'm packing my bags, headed to Texarkana right now!
krazeeboi
October 22, 2012, 05:30:34 PMThe fact of the matter is that Jacksonville isn't exploiting its built-in advantages. Other cities are doing a lot more with a lot less; pretty mind-boggling how lackluster the leadership is in Jacksonville for that to be happening.
Ocklawaha
May 07, 2013, 04:33:12 PMWe might be slightly ahead in population, but OKC, is ripping us a new one in CITY 101.
jcjohnpaint
May 07, 2013, 09:40:30 PMReally interesting: "MAPS 3 (Metropolitan Area Projects). The streetcar route is expected to be approved by City Council this summer and construction on the rail is expected to begin in 2014. The rail-based streetcar and a hub will serve downtown Oklahoma City and the number of miles of track constructed will be determined by funding.
The Modern Streetcar project is managed by the City of Oklahoma City’s MAPS 3 office. A 10-person Modern Streetcar Subcommittee, made up of residents, provides input to City staff and to the MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board.
About MAPS 3
MAPS 3 is a 10-year, $777 million construction program designed to improve the quality of life in Oklahoma City. It is funded by a one-cent sales tax initiative that began in April 2010 and ends in December 2017. MAPS 3 funds eight projects: Downtown Convention Center, Downtown Public Park, Modern Streetcar, Oklahoma River Improvements, Oklahoma State Fairgrounds Improvements, Senior Health and Wellness Centers and Trails and Sidewalks."