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Construction on SR 9B Continues to Advance

Jacksonville's latest expressway construction project continues to move towards completion. Today, Metro Jacksonville shares an update on the status of State Road 9B which will eventually become Interstate 795.

Published July 18, 2012 in Transit      62 Comments    Open printer friendly version of this article Print Article

feature

About The SR 9B Project


SR 9B at and just south of I-295 East Beltway

Quote
A new roadway connecting southern Duval County with northern St. Johns County has been in the plans since the mid 1970s. The new road will provide a vital link in the overall transportation system by ultimately improving access to Interstate 95 and relieving the heavily congested U.S. 1 and Old St. Augustine Road corridors in southern Duval and northern St. Johns counties near Jacksonville, Florida.

Prior to the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) of 2009, the project was on hold due to lack of funding. Although State Road 9B was not funded during the first round of ARRA projects, remaining funds became available from projects that came in under budget. By the end of 2009, the first phase of State Road 9B, from State Road 9A to U.S. 1, was finally funded. The construction of the second phase of State Road 9B between US 1 and Interstate 95 has been funded for a later date. However, the Florida Department of Transportation is working to form a partnership with the private sector to advance this project so construction can begin in early 2013.

The road will be constructed of concrete pavement and will initially have two travel lanes in each direction with 10-foot paved shoulders on the outside lanes, four-foot paved shoulders on the inside lanes, and an 88-foot center median. The speed limit is currently planned for 65 mph.

The State Road 9B corridor is designed to ultimately accommodate eight lanes of traffic, four 12-foot lanes in each direction, with 12-foot shoulders on each side of the roadway.
http://www.sr9b.com/sr9b/AboutUs.aspx



About SR 9B - Phase 1


SR 9B at Cross Road Bridge.

Quote
Phase One of State Road 9B begins at State Road 9A and extends approximately three miles south where it will connect to US 1 at Gran Bay Parkway.

On the north end of the project, a new interchange between SR 9A and SR 9B will allow southbound SR 9A traffic to remain on SR 9A or enter SR 9B. Northbound SR 9B traffic will continue northbound onto SR 9A.

On the south end of the project, a new interchange will provide a direct connection between SR 9B and US 1 by way of signalized intersections. Turn lanes will be constructed both north- and southbound on US 1 for vehicles entering northbound SR 9B, and entrance and exit ramps will provide access between the two roadways.

Lane closures will be necessary on US 1 and SR 9A during construction, but will not be allowed during peak traffic times.

This project was bid as a design/build contract to accelerate construction and was awarded to the design build team of Archer Western Contractors / GAI Consultants.
http://www.sr9b.com/sr9b/Phase1.aspx


About SR 9B - Phase 2


Phase 1 at Philips Highway.  Phase 2 will connect Philips Highway with I-95.

Quote
Phase two is proposed to extend State Road 9B from US 1 to Interstate 95 with an interchange providing access from southbound SR 9B to both north- and southbound Interstate 95. Access will also be provided from northbound and southbound Interstate 95 to northbound SR 9B.

The proposed State Road 9B/I-95 interchange is located about two miles south of the Old St. Augustine Road/I-95 interchange and four miles north of the County Road 210/I-95 interchange.

Also proposed in phase two is construction of the remaining ramps at the interchange with US 1, resulting in full access between SR 9B and US 1, both north- and southbound. An off-ramp from southbound SR 9B to Flagler Development is also proposed during phase two construction.

Right-of-way acquisition is complete and design is underway for this phase. Construction has been funded for a later date. However, the Florida Department of Transportation is working to form a partnership with the private sector to advance this project for construction in early 2013.

A public meeting was held January 19, 2012 regarding the construction of a noise barrier at the Interstate 95 and State Road 9B interchange. Based on the public's response, the Florida Department of Transportation will construct a 16-foot high noise barrier for the Bartram Springs/Villages at Bartram Springs and Flagler Station developments as well as a 22-foot high barrier for the Carlyle at Bartram Park apartment complex.
http://www.sr9b.com/sr9b/Phase2.aspx


How Much Does This Cost?


Aerial of Phase 2

Phase 1 of this 7.5 miles highway is scheduled to be completed in Fall of 2012, at an estimated cost of $68.5 million.  Phase 2, which backers hope will open large tracks of land to commercial and industrial development and help St. Johns County's tax base expand, is anticipated to get underway in 2013.  Phase 2 is estimated to cost $104.6 million to construct.

Article by Ennis Davis.  Information from www.sr9b.com







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62 Comments

Doctor_K

July 18, 2012, 08:26:13 AM
But God forbid we spend that $173 million on any kind of rail, or even upgrading/expanding/revamping our bus fleet.

Ocklawaha

July 18, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
I feel the same way Doctor_K, 32 years of pushing rail and blasting JTA has only resulted in the Executive Director being fired. On
the other hand I see the reasons behind this road.

Ever hear those Clay County boys and girls complaining about poor access to Duval? In Clay the Ortega River/McGirts Creek force all traffic into a narrow corridor without much room for expansion. St John's is one of the richest counties in the entire USA and 'we' are growing at a rapid pace...AND following our long term development plans. While the road is completely redundant, it won't be within a short span of years. Getting this road in place now, rather then later, will save St. Johns from another 'Blanding/Collins/I-295 disaster.

Lastly the roadway will be used to pull most of the heavy southbound truck traffic off of the I-95/295 interchange, something that should assist with the heavy flows through that interchange during the rush hours.

Would I have built it? Not unless I could swing it over the St. Johns River somewhere between Bald Eagle Road or Town Center Blvd.

cline

July 18, 2012, 09:02:02 AM
So this colossal waste of money appears to be progressing quickly.  Nice.

Quote
St John's is one of the richest counties in the entire USA
  Define "one of", it's not in the top 25.  I'm pretty sure its not in the top 50 either.

St. Johns has I95 as an artery into Jax, Clay has Blanding.  Two completely different facilities.

tufsu1

July 18, 2012, 09:02:15 AM
I am so excited that we are building another highway in northeast Florida.....and now FDOT has revived the Future Corridors program to study more....imagine the glory of building these all over the state!

cline

July 18, 2012, 09:12:39 AM
^Who needs the environment and greenspace when you can have more roads?  FDOT must be proud.

Bike Jax

July 18, 2012, 09:19:30 AM
Im convinced that FDOT planners & engineers are making up shit to do now so they can have a job. What if they put all that energy and money into fixing the shit they have built for the past 50 years and making it more bicycle - pedestrian friendly.

tufsu1

July 18, 2012, 09:27:21 AM
^ well that would take a new directive from the top

L.P. Hovercraft

July 18, 2012, 09:44:45 AM
Im convinced that FDOT planners & engineers are making up shit to do now so they can have a job. What if they put all that energy and money into fixing the shit they have built for the past 50 years and making it more bicycle - pedestrian friendly.

Why bite the hand (or in this case, the government funded teat) that feeds you?

Talk about job security--if this thing was planned back in the gas-crunch 1970's and just getting built now, what infernal plans are the FDOT cooking up today for their future heirs in 2050?

fsquid

July 18, 2012, 09:56:58 AM
So this colossal waste of money appears to be progressing quickly.  Nice.

Quote
St John's is one of the richest counties in the entire USA
  Define "one of", it's not in the top 25.  I'm pretty sure its not in the top 50 either.

St. Johns has I95 as an artery into Jax, Clay has Blanding.  Two completely different facilities.

64th out of 3,033, so top 2% according to Forbes in 2010.

Dapperdan

July 18, 2012, 09:58:56 AM
Im convinced that FDOT planners & engineers are making up shit to do now so they can have a job. What if they put all that energy and money into fixing the shit they have built for the past 50 years and making it more bicycle - pedestrian friendly.

Talk about job security--if this thing was planned back in the gas-crunch 1970's and just getting built now, what infernal plans are the FDOT cooking up today for their future heirs in 2050?

I think that would be BRT.

Jason

July 18, 2012, 10:18:02 AM
So this colossal waste of money appears to be progressing quickly.  Nice.


As we all know, Jax wastes no time when building roads.  All of the newest interchange projects were completed on or ahead of schedule.

Jax has a fantastic highway system for a city our size, although, I don't see 9B as a big enhancement.  IMO, it should have ran due south into Nocatee and connected with the Nocatee expressway.

fieldafm

July 18, 2012, 10:30:51 AM
Quote
Phase 2, which backers hope will open large tracks of land to commercial and industrial development

No suprise who owns that land (Flagler).

When someone says that governmet subsidizes sprawl... this is the perfect example:  Building an expensive stretch of road not to relieve traffic, but so that land owned by extremely powerful developers can be more attractive to be redeveloped for commercial use.

Now that the road is being built (at no cost to the landowners) to subsidize this development... how long do you think it's going to take for the same landowners to start campaigning for impact fees being too costly to their redevelopment efforts?

See how eloquantly that works?

copperfiend

July 18, 2012, 10:49:23 AM
The cost to the landowners are probably the political donations they make to the parties in power and in the form of lobbyists in Tallahassee.

cline

July 18, 2012, 11:02:58 AM
Like I've said before, the developers (lobbyist, builders et. al.) in this state own our elected officials.  They basically get whatever the hell they want.  The Outer Beltway is the embodiment of this.  It will do nothing to ease congestion however, it will make a couple of landowners very wealthy.  Just take a look at the large tracts of land the OB cuts through and who owns them.  Unfortunately us taxpayers will be left to pay for the impacts of their development while the landowners bathe in cash.

blizz01

July 18, 2012, 11:13:47 AM
Quote
Quote
St John's is one of the richest counties in the entire USA   Define "one of", it's not in the top 25.  I'm pretty sure its not in the top 50 either.


Obviously, there is relative wealth in St. John's County.  I suppose it depends on the criteria that you seek; but it certainly shows up (albiet, inconsistently) on "lists":

http://www.amerifound.com/wealthiest_counties_in_america.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_locations_by_per_capita_income

Tacachale

July 18, 2012, 11:40:04 AM
Quote
Phase 2, which backers hope will open large tracks of land to commercial and industrial development

No suprise who owns that land (Flagler).

When someone says that governmet subsidizes sprawl... this is the perfect example:  Building an expensive stretch of road not to relieve traffic, but so that land owned by extremely powerful developers can be more attractive to be redeveloped for commercial use.

Now that the road is being built (at no cost to the landowners) to subsidize this development... how long do you think it's going to take for the same landowners to start campaigning for impact fees being too costly to their redevelopment efforts?

See how eloquantly that works?
This is the history of Florida for over 100 years, writ large.

Ocklawaha

July 18, 2012, 12:15:22 PM
Im convinced that FDOT planners & engineers are making up shit to do now so they can have a job. What if they put all that energy and money into fixing the shit they have built for the past 50 years and making it more bicycle - pedestrian friendly.

All is not lost IF we make enough noise. I've got a direct line to one of the largest highway contractors in the country, in fact the manager/engineer of many of their projects is my neighbor. He was telling me the other day that things like a bikeway or even (and he suggested this) something like a cantilevered pedestrian/bike trail on one or more of our bridges, could be tossed in and used to 'sweeten' a deal... If FDOT/JTA/COJ demanded such.

Ocklawaha

July 18, 2012, 12:18:41 PM
Quote
Quote
St John's is one of the richest counties in the entire USA   Define "one of", it's not in the top 25.  I'm pretty sure its not in the top 50 either.


Obviously, there is relative wealth in St. John's County.  I suppose it depends on the criteria that you seek; but it certainly shows up (albiet, inconsistently) on "lists":

http://www.amerifound.com/wealthiest_counties_in_america.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_locations_by_per_capita_income

'Far out man!' Thank's Blizz, I was about the post the same thing! We also have some of the top rated public schools in the country... so we obviously need more FREEways! NOT!

acme54321

July 18, 2012, 12:52:51 PM
On the phase 2 aerial it shows the road going past I-95, doing a 180, and connecting up with some other road.  What's up with that??

cline

July 18, 2012, 01:03:47 PM
^I believe the original plan was to continue the road south of I-95 and it would ultimately tie into CR2209/St Johns Parkway somewhere between Race Track and CR210.

Ocklawaha

July 18, 2012, 01:45:22 PM
Looking at the map is often a clue to the intent, in this case it's pretty obvious they don't plan to quit at Race Track Road. BTW Acme, the 'some other road' is indeed Race Track Road. Hooking into Race Track will make I-95 accessible from Julington Creek Plantation. Continuing on to St. Johns Parkway would certainly pull some of the SR-210 rush traffic off of the super-slab and reroute them onto the new I-795 (AKA-9-B).

If they're going to go ahead with this thing, in fact many of these 'things', then I'd wish to see I-795, cross the river onto Flemming Island, perhaps even pulling the stupid Branon-Chafee Turnpike crossing up and merging them together. The down side of their current plan is they will destroy the potential future of Clay County Barge Port at Green Cove Springs. Though Clay is asleep at the helm, just like Jacksonville, their port is one of the very few in the entire country that has marine, rail and airport all within the same grounds. They could convert these assets into a super-job-generator, with extension of one or two of the runways, at the old Naval Base, and relaying the railroad track to reach the docks. BINGO, instant regional intermodal terminal.  For a similar terminal with a slight disconnect to the barge facility which is some miles away, see Huntsville (AL) Intermodal Facility.

peestandingup

July 18, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
Im convinced that FDOT planners & engineers are making up shit to do now so they can have a job. What if they put all that energy and money into fixing the shit they have built for the past 50 years and making it more bicycle - pedestrian friendly.

All is not lost IF we make enough noise. I've got a direct line to one of the largest highway contractors in the country, in fact the manager/engineer of many of their projects is my neighbor. He was telling me the other day that things like a bikeway or even (and he suggested this) something like a cantilevered pedestrian/bike trail on one or more of our bridges, could be tossed in and used to 'sweeten' a deal... If FDOT/JTA/COJ demanded such.

People have been making noise for decades & it hasn't gotten us anywhere. They've thrown a few crumbs here & there, but thats basically it. That money & the influences to keep things the way they are are too great. Its deep seeded & doesn't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. Its not about doing what's smarter, most cost effective or what's best for the people anymore. Thats obvious. And the south generally suffers from that more than anywhere in the US it would seem.

So while they're talking about putting in a high speed maglev up the east coast (DC to NYC in under an hour), on top of already suburb transit, bike & pedestrian systems (both in the cities & connecting them), we're still stuck in the past of more roads, using antiquated "transit" that's so bad that only the poorest of the poor who have no alternatives use it, bombed out downtowns, & keeping the sprawl train going at any cost to appease the masters.

Anti redneck

July 18, 2012, 03:51:41 PM
$17.3 million? Did I get that right? There's a lot of things that money could do instead of being wasted on some pointless project like this. In fact, what was the point of all that 9A construction a few years back if they're going to do this?

tufsu1

July 18, 2012, 04:02:47 PM
actually a lot of that 9A construction is why this is happening....the connection of the southeast leg of the beltway that was made a few years ago has led to significant growth in that part of the City (think Town Center, Gate Pkwy, and Baymeadows ext)

CityLife

July 18, 2012, 05:37:06 PM
Estuary Corp owns a huge amount of land south of JTB and east of 9a/9b. You have to imagine they will be making some big moves to extend Baymeadows, Kernan, Hodges into their realm. Especially with the development of Nocatee. Sadly, they have the money and clout to probably get whatever they want.


thelakelander

July 18, 2012, 05:48:47 PM
actually a lot of that 9A construction is why this is happening....the connection of the southeast leg of the beltway that was made a few years ago has led to significant growth in that part of the City (think Town Center, Gate Pkwy, and Baymeadows ext)
I still don't buy the whole argument that any of these new expressways are needed from a transportation capacity stand point.   IMO, after all the research I've done over the years, I still believe they are driven strictly for the sake of stimulating new land development.  Until we stop allowing the financial suckling of the taxpayer's teet for every whim don't expect anything to change.  This site screams future interchange and development all over it just like it did years ago on paper.





We've already put the bridge in place for what could be a four lane road built under it.  Whoever, owns that land could eventually be sitting on a cash cow since thousands of cars will be passing through it in a few years.

CityLife

July 18, 2012, 06:18:57 PM
actually a lot of that 9A construction is why this is happening....the connection of the southeast leg of the beltway that was made a few years ago has led to significant growth in that part of the City (think Town Center, Gate Pkwy, and Baymeadows ext)
We've already put the bridge in place for what could be a four lane road built under it.  However, owns that land could eventually be sitting on a cash cow since thousands of cars will be passing through it in a few years.

Doubt that was a coincidence. Estuary Corp owns a few thousand acres in immediate proximity to 9B, along with DDI Inc which is also some of the same people (Winn Dixie and Davis Family).

They also own most of the land between there and JTB (along with the Hodges Trust). I'm sure they all have a long term plan for how to extend the roads and open up the land for development.

If our local news was worth a damn, this would be an interesting research project...



Ocklawaha

July 18, 2012, 10:59:31 PM

While I'm certainly NOT a fan of more mindless highways, I would like to see this thing maybe attract the attention of the Brannon/Chaffee project and perhaps (maybe I'm dreaming) convince them to link to I-795 rather then going all the way south to the Shand's Bridge.

I think ya'll are onto something with reference to the large corporate land owners being in bed with the politico's in FDOT. I also wonder what is going on at the Deep Forest Airport, a state-of-the-art facility, that looks like it is expanding west of the current runway. Just wondering out loud if this plays any small part in the grand scheme. This airport is already home to a commercial jet charter airline.

FAA Information Effective:   2011-08-25
Airport Identifier:   FD48
Airport Status:   Operational
Longitude/Latitude:   081-26-59.3070W/30-14-30.8700N
-81.449807/30.241908 (Estimated)
Elevation:   24 ft / 7.32 m (Estimated)
Land:   50 acres
From nearest city:   12 nautical miles E of Jacksonville, FL
Location:   Duval County, FL
Magnetic Variation:   03W (1985)

Owner & Manager
Ownership:   Privately owned
Owner:   George Hodges, Jr.
Address:   Po Box 16771
Jacksonville, FL 32245-6771
Phone number:   904-509-8501
Manager:   John R. Cathey
Address:   5101 Hodges Blvd.
Jacksonville, FL 32245-7393
Phone number:   904-223-0153

Airport Operations and Facilities
Airport Use:   Private
Wind indicator:   Yes
Segmented Circle:   No
Control Tower:   No
Lighting Schedule:   PHONE REQ
FOR MIRL RY 18/36 CALL 904-509-8501
Landing fee charge:   No
Sectional chart:   Jacksonville
Region:   ASO - Southern
Boundary ARTCC:   ZJX - Jacksonville
Tie-in FSS:   GNV - Gainesville
FSS on Airport:   No
FSS Toll Free:   1-800-WX-BRIEF
Airport Services
Fuel available:   A1

Runway Information
Runway 18/36
Dimension:   6425 x 60 ft / 1958.3 x 18.3 m
Surface:   ASPH,
Edge Lights:   Non-standard lighting system
NSTD MIRL; INNER 5000 FT PORTION OF RY LGTD WITH WHITE LGTS; DSPLCD THLDS LGTD WITH BLUE LGTS; THLD LGTD WITH RED LGTS.
    

'

tufsu1

July 18, 2012, 11:08:21 PM
actually a lot of that 9A construction is why this is happening....the connection of the southeast leg of the beltway that was made a few years ago has led to significant growth in that part of the City (think Town Center, Gate Pkwy, and Baymeadows ext)
I still don't buy the whole argument that any of these new expressways are needed from a transportation capacity stand point.

let me be clear...I agree....I'm just saying that the construction of the nearby 9A facilitated development ion the area, leading to traffic growth, and some people's view that 9B is needed

thelakelander

July 18, 2012, 11:32:31 PM
Yes, construction of 9A did open thousands of acres of virgin land for more development.  It's the same land development strategy we've been employing since the 1950s.  One day, it will be nice for us to truly ponder if the land development generates enough revenue to the public coffers to cover itself.  On the surface, one would believe if it did, we'd have a budget surplus like Portland does right now.

Ocklawaha

July 18, 2012, 11:59:35 PM
Portland has one huge natural advantage that might be responsible for it's wise choices. It's boxed in by some VERY high mountains, the Cascades and the Coast Range including Mount Hood. The city can't really sprawl without going completely vertical. This tends to force development into dense corridors, similar to those in Pittsburgh.

Randall O'Toole and the fools at Heritage Foundation claim that the city would have benefited even more from more highways, but like Jacksonville, a city built on streetcar and interurbans, that goes back to it's roots, is wise indeed. Portland proved it!

tufsu1

July 19, 2012, 08:16:48 AM
Here's a great article from the Orlando Sentinel on transportation spending

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-17/news/os-scott-maxwell-transportation-costs-071812-20120717_1_sunrail-roads-rail-lines

thelakelander

July 19, 2012, 08:34:38 AM
Portland has one huge natural advantage that might be responsible for it's wise choices. It's boxed in by some VERY high mountains, the Cascades and the Coast Range including Mount Hood. The city can't really sprawl without going completely vertical. This tends to force development into dense corridors, similar to those in Pittsburgh.

Randall O'Toole and the fools at Heritage Foundation claim that the city would have benefited even more from more highways, but like Jacksonville, a city built on streetcar and interurbans, that goes back to it's roots, is wise indeed. Portland proved it!

What's Oklahoma City's excuse for their budget surplus?

Quote
Oklahoma City leaders are deciding how to spend an extra $1.3 million in the city’s budget.

At the top of its list, City Council is considering adding city bus routes on Sundays, hiring additional police officers and funding more street repairs. City Council is also thinking about doing nothing with the money at this time, and saving it instead.

http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/okc/City-leaders-undecided-on-how-to-spend-budget-surplus/-/11777584/15181364/-/s65jdlz/-/index.html

Ocklawaha

July 19, 2012, 09:21:24 AM
OIL. Anybody can stick a pipe in the ground and get oil, water, on the other hand, is harder to find, LOL. When oil prices soar, OKC enjoys some of the richest tax revenue in the country, when they fall, the city dies.

The MAPS projects are certainly another reason for the boom. We did Laura Street, OKC did all of downtown OKC. They have been investing in themselves since I was on a surrounding town council. The people have passed the tax increases similar to 'Better Jacksonville' but with the exception of a reroute of I-40 through downtown, which took out any useful yard space at OKC Union Station, they've spent that money on downtown things.

OKC has a horrible transit system (ranked a fair distance below JTA) and a network of gridded FREEways and turnpikes that would make Los Angles blush. Their transit ridership fell by 95% when they took out he streetcars and interurbans and it never recovered. Today they are again investing in Streetcars as a development tool. 'OKC JAGUARS?' Let's just say it wouldn't surprise me - OKC is on a roll.

CityLife

July 19, 2012, 09:41:37 AM
Portland's sprawl is controlled through an urban growth boundary. Fat chance that would ever be allowed in Jax...

cline

July 19, 2012, 10:09:06 AM
Quote
I also wonder what is going on at the Deep Forest Airport, a state-of-the-art facility, that looks like it is expanding west of the current runway. Just wondering out loud if this plays any small part in the grand scheme. This airport is already home to a commercial jet charter airline.

Not sure about "state of the art".  I'm pretty sure it is basically Hodges personal landing strip- that's about it.  The same Hodges that made gobs of cash off of highway projects to open up his land (i.e. JTB).

subro

July 19, 2012, 12:27:03 PM
I don't think that the road is needed but if they are going to build it, why wouldn't they just make it three lanes in each direction so that they don't have to go back and expand it 5 years from now like they did with JTB?

L.P. Hovercraft

July 19, 2012, 01:11:22 PM
I don't think that the road is needed but if they are going to build it, why wouldn't they just make it three lanes in each direction so that they don't have to go back and expand it 5 years from now like they did with JTB?

Built in obsolescence is a great American business tradition--why do it right the first time when you can just tear it down and rebuild it again in a few years and get paid double to do so?

Gators312

July 19, 2012, 06:22:40 PM
Didn't Rivertown amend their plans to ensure a more Southerly crossing (Shands Bridge) for the Outer Beltway?

The chatter I heard was they changed phases in which they were going to build, starting farthest North to cause the ROW acquisition for the more Northerly choices such as PoPo Point to Fleming Island to be unfeasible by the time they had to make a decision. 

I had given up hope that there would be a more reasonable bridge crossing to ease the traffic on the Buckman/295....Are you trying to give me false hope Ock??

tufsu1

July 19, 2012, 08:34:31 PM
Didn't Rivertown amend their plans to ensure a more Southerly crossing (Shands Bridge) for the Outer Beltway?

The chatter I heard was they changed phases in which they were going to build, starting farthest North to cause the ROW acquisition for the more Northerly choices such as PoPo Point to Fleming Island to be unfeasible by the time they had to make a decision. 

I had given up hope that there would be a more reasonable bridge crossing to ease the traffic on the Buckman/295....Are you trying to give me false hope Ock??

Correct

Ocklawaha

July 19, 2012, 11:40:35 PM
Portland's sprawl is controlled through an urban growth boundary. Fat chance that would ever be allowed in Jax...

Yeah, I lived there, well actually in Boring and Sandy, just east of town. 'Boundary' or no boundary, they are not going to build houses over the cliffs and into the narrow Columbia Gorge, or east up to the rare air 'timberline' on Mount Hood, or west in the rugged Coast Range featured on TV's logging shows. The 'Boundary' might help for sprawl southward, past the falls of the Willamette River and through the narrows into the valley toward Salem. But they'd have to annex Oregon City and I don't think that would ever fly. Mother Nature has pretty much done all of the work for the urbanists before they invented the 'Urban Boundary.'


Quote
I also wonder what is going on at the Deep Forest Airport, a state-of-the-art facility, that looks like it is expanding west of the current runway. Just wondering out loud if this plays any small part in the grand scheme. This airport is already home to a commercial jet charter airline.

Not sure about "state of the art".  I'm pretty sure it is basically Hodges personal landing strip- that's about it.  The same Hodges that made gobs of cash off of highway projects to open up his land (i.e. JTB).

Deep Forest Airport is actually a  commercial aviation airport with a charter airline operating out of it with two jets. While the facilities are small, they are indeed state-of-the-art with a 6,500 foot, LIGHTED, 60 foot wide, runway. This is certainly not farmer Jones grass strip!

Didn't Rivertown amend their plans to ensure a more Southerly crossing (Shands Bridge) for the Outer Beltway?

The chatter I heard was they changed phases in which they were going to build, starting farthest North to cause the ROW acquisition for the more Northerly choices such as PoPo Point to Fleming Island to be unfeasible by the time they had to make a decision. 

I had given up hope that there would be a more reasonable bridge crossing to ease the traffic on the Buckman/295....Are you trying to give me false hope Ock??

No. Just coaching from the cheap seats and making all the damn noise I can. There is still plenty of space through the old Naval Air Station at Switzerland, around Greenbriar, which pretty much lines up with the Parkway on Flemming Island. If the FREEway aspect was to quit at the St. Johns Parkway, it's conceivable that a cheaper solution might be 4 laneing of Greenbriar and a crossing to the Parkway area. Just saying'.

thelakelander

July 20, 2012, 06:28:45 AM
Lexington, KY, who also has an urban development boundary has a budget surplus as well.

http://www.estormwater.com/lexington-mayor-proposes-55-million-storm-water-projects

San Diego has a surplus as well....

Quote
The revised budget's new-found $12 million, largely due to increased room tax proceeds and healthier legal and disability fund balances, will be plowed into core services such as:

More police officers and fire fighters.

More street upgrades and infrastructure repairs.

Longer library hours.

Even greater support for arts and culture

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/12M-Surplus-in-Revised-City-Budget-153329155.html

Other random cities with budget surpluses include Minneapolis, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Richmond and Savannah.  It's a cool problem to have.  Will the construction of 9B lead us in that direction?

CityLife

July 20, 2012, 07:45:47 AM
Ock, Portland's Urban Growth Boundary is inside of those areas you mentioned and is widely cited as one of the most successful examples of limiting sprawl in America. I'm going to side with the experts here....

tufsu1

July 20, 2012, 08:12:22 AM
Other random cities with budget surpluses include Minneapolis, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Richmond and Savannah.  It's a cool problem to have.  Will the construction of 9B lead us in that direction?

of course it will...just think of all that new residential, commercial, and office space that can be developed alongside it...all in Duval County...woo hoo!

thelakelander

July 20, 2012, 08:31:17 AM
Any idea of how much revenue that will bring the city verses the the public costs to support such new development?  If it brings more than it costs to pay the annual public things needed for it (new school, JSO, fire, libraries, parks, roads, road maintenance, etc.), then I'm all for it.  I'm a fan of the budget surplus.

stephendare

July 20, 2012, 09:07:53 AM
Other random cities with budget surpluses include Minneapolis, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Richmond and Savannah.  It's a cool problem to have.  Will the construction of 9B lead us in that direction?

of course it will...just think of all that new residential, commercial, and office space that can be developed alongside it...all in Duval County...woo hoo!

Which do not pay for themselves.

No lake, the building of nine b does not move us into a direction of surpluses, it leads us further into the direction of complete insolvency

thelakelander

July 20, 2012, 09:11:09 AM
Oh, I know.

tufsu1

July 20, 2012, 09:11:46 AM
sarcasm is often hard to comprehend...guess I should try harder next time

stephendare

July 20, 2012, 09:22:28 AM
sarcasm is often hard to comprehend...guess I should try harder next time

No worries.  I knew what you meant, but I always try to keep in mind that there are many many others reading for the first time who don't realize these things.

Ocklawaha

July 20, 2012, 09:50:00 AM
Ock, Portland's Urban Growth Boundary is inside of those areas you mentioned and is widely cited as one of the most successful examples of limiting sprawl in America. I'm going to side with the experts here....

Exactly, it IS inside the boundaries because it would be pretty insane to try and include the mountains that I mentioned. For anyone that hasn't been there, Mount Hood, for example, rises far above the timberline, meaning there is not enough air for the trees to grow. Here are a couple of maps that illustrate what I've been saying.


This map illustrates the constraints of nature on 'The Rose City'.


The official Urban Growth Boundary.


Those lower hills on the left of the Topo map image are illustrated in the foreground of this photo. The connection via aerial tram is the same thing we did in Medellin

ABOUT THE TRAM

Crucial link: The Portland Aerial Tram and the crucial link it provides between Marquam Hill and South Waterfront has leveraged private investments of almost $2 billion in the South Waterfront District.

Economic growth: OHSU's (Oregon Health and Science University) expansion is spurring extensive development of the South Waterfront district, which will lead to some 10,000 new jobs.
Urban renewal: The tram reconnects adjacent neighborhoods to the river and helps create a vibrant new live/work district for Portland.

Connection is essential to great health care, discovery and learning: The tram quickly links doctors, nurses, engineers, scientists and students. This critical synergy creates a collaborative environment in which promising discoveries can quickly be translated into new therapies, and in which tomorrow's caregivers will have access to all of OHSU.

A central gateway: Fast tram service to Marquam Hill, ample parking and good public transportation links at the Center for Health & Healing on the South Waterfront adds a convenient, centrally located point of entry to all OHSU services.

TRAM FACTS
Cars: Two 79-passenger cars, both ADA-compatible
Capacity: 980 people/hour in each direction
Speed & ride time: 22 miles/hour; 3 minutes
Frequency: Departs every 5 minutes during peak hours
Owners: The tram is owned by the City of Portland. OHSU and the city will share responsibilities for ongoing tram operations.

Downtown Portland - Elevation
Marquam Hill - Elevation 577 feet
If you want to walk to Council Crest on the trail from Marquam Hill, you'll rise to 1,100 feet, a climb of 523 feet.

Quote
EFFECTS OF URBAN FREEWAY REMOVAL:


Harbor FREEway in Portland before removal


TODAY,  A new report, published jointly by the Institute for Transportation and Development and EMBARQ, offers brief retrospectives of five urban roads from around the world whose removal (or, in one case, cancellation) illuminates "what can be done when a highway no longer makes sense." From waterfront parks to street-level boulevards to robust transit systems, the answer is: a lot.


Harbor Drive is the name of a street in Portland, Oregon, which was formerly a freeway that carried U.S. Route 99W along the western shore of the Willamette River in the downtown area. While a segment of the road still exists today, the majority of the route (the stretch between the Steel Bridge and the Riverplace Marina) was demolished in 1974, to make way for the Tom McCall Waterfront Park. In doing so, the city of Portland became the first major city in the United States to actually remove an existing freeway; the removal of Harbor Drive is widely considered a milestone in urban planning.

Quote
THE EFFECT OF GOOD TRANSPORTATION PLANNING?

MEDELLIN, COLOMBIA — The Medellin Metrocable, an aerial tramway system regarded as a model of urban integration for other mountainous Latin American metropolises, is providing a better life for marginalized populations of this Andean city who previously lacked easy access to downtown and other economically vibrant areas.

The opening a year ago of a second Metrocable line to service the Comuna 13 slum has enabled the inhabitants of that overcrowded, scarcely-paved community high in the hills west of downtown to feel a part of Medellin, Colombia’s business hub and second-largest city.

Cities like Rio de Janeiro and Caracas where millions of inhabitants of hillside slums are poorly integrated into the rest of the metropolis have already shown an interest in the Medellin system, which was built with French technology at a very low cost.

The Comuna 13 line spans a distance of 2.7 kilometers (1.7 miles) and is capable of transporting some 25,000 people per hour along the 11-minute route.

Several support pilings, which rise from steep mountainsides, support the steel cables on which 90 eight-seat cabins move at an average speed of 16 kilometers (10 miles) per hour.

At the foot of the mountain, the Metrocable links to the Medellin Metro, enabling commuters to work downtown and avoid interminable climbs up or down the mountainside of as many as 600 steps.

In the 1980s and ’90s, Medellin was considered the world’s most dangerous city with an average of 6,500 murders a year.(OCK NOTE - Yeah, but DAMN IT WAS FUN!) The bloodiest urban chapter in Colombia’s decades-old armed conflict occurred on the streets of the capital of Antioquia province and Comuna 13 was the most violent area of all due to the combined effects of drug trafficking and leftist guerrilla and far-right paramilitary activity.

The security presence in that slum, currently home to 130,000 people, was non-existent until the late-2002 “Operation Orion,” a massive military-police sweep that left dozens dead and gave authorities renewed control over that district.

“We’re repaying a social debt we had for many years … because the state lost credibility,” Jose Fernando Jaramillo, architects’ coordinator for the Comprehensive Urban Project in Comuna 13.

The municipality, under then-Mayor Sergio Fajardo, invested close to $45 million to build the second Metrocable project, which followed on the heels of the first successful line that serviced Santo Domingo Savio, a marginalized community in northeastern Medellin.

The Medellin municipal government plans to spend a total of $361 million to remodel Comuna 13, taking advantage of the Metrocable’s impact.

Thus far, a modern library, public parks, sporting complexes and health facilities have all been built, while some of the rundown public schools in that sector have been renovated.

“I’ve lived here for 25 years and this was a totally inhospitable place. The access routes were roads. There was a lot of violence up until Operation Orion, when the state came in and began investing in these very marginalized neighborhoods,” Luz Marina Giraldo, a local community leader, told Efe.

Comuna 13 “now has more dignity and the quality of life has improved. Before there was practically no hope; for me this is a miracle,” she added.

Medellin currently is planning to install two new lines with the aim of incorporating more marginalized community into the life of the city.

The Metrocable, a system that can be set up in different places around the world thanks to its low cost and structural versatility, has gained recognition as a valid model of social and urban integration.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/_kjfz6bNgm0?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/_kjfz6bNgm0?version=3&amp;amp;hl=en_US</a>

CityLife

July 20, 2012, 10:04:27 AM
No not exactly. You claimed the sprawl was limited by the natural features. When in fact the UGB is well inside of those natural features. Thus it is the UGB limiting the sprawl, not natural features as you hypothesized.

Ocklawaha

July 20, 2012, 10:30:39 AM
Been there, done that. Ill stick with what I said, the maps speak for themselves.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

July 20, 2012, 10:42:01 AM
Too bad our planners used I-95 as the West & South UGB, State St (with a little nugget cut out to exclude the courthouse) as the North UGB and the SJR as the East UGB. 

thelakelander

July 20, 2012, 10:48:28 AM
Ock, I see Citylife's point. The mountains are within the development boundary. They're no more a deterrent to sprawl than the Atlantic Ocean or our marshes are locally. However, an urban development boundary would definitely stop the outward growth in areas where there are no natural features to limit it.

cline

July 20, 2012, 11:00:19 AM
^Bingo

CityLife

July 20, 2012, 11:12:51 AM
Ock, the aerial map you posted literally shows the UGB and how it has prevented sprawl. If you go to Google Maps and look at Portland, you'll see that there is plenty of developable land east, west, and south of the UGB. The UGB stops at the Columbia River because the other side is Washington State, but if it wasn't, there would be no Vancouver, Washington.

Just to finally put a nail in this coffin, the UGB extends about 15 miles east of Portland. While Mt. Hood is about 50 miles from Portland. There is plenty of developable land between the UGB and Mt. Hood National Forest, yet there is no sprawl.

Ocklawaha

July 20, 2012, 11:49:48 AM
Ock, I see Citylife's point. The mountains are within the development boundary. They're no more a deterrent to sprawl than the Atlantic Ocean or our marshes are locally. However, an urban development boundary would definitely stop the outward growth in areas where there are no natural features to limit it.

Actually it doesn't stop it Lake. Portland has experienced a 16% DECLINE in density since the Urban Growth Boundaries were put in place. They also have a expansion element to the boundaries that negate an absolute end to sprawl. Further, they have found that growth hasn't dropped off at the edge of the boundary. Two lane roads have become 4 lane roads, utility poles have replaced trees and shopping centers have filled rural land, but it STOPS at the foot of the mountains. If you want to lay the two photos of the maps I posted over each other, I think you'll see the barrier that the mountains have created. Like Pittsburgh, this causes the city to expand in narrow constrained corridors ideal for mass transit. You are correct that our own wetlands provide a barrier to development of sorts, but we've seen Florida's rampant abuse of it's natural resources where the dollar is ALWAYS greater then the Manatee.

Miami-Dade's growth boundary which also includes stopping at the edge of oblivion in the Everglades, is much more effective, constrained by the sea and the sea of grass, they can only go up.

We are all saying the same thing City Life, all I'm saying is that the mountains STOP urban sprawl in Portland, growth boundary or not, you can't build on unstable, vertical land. Certainly you don't jump state boundaries with development, but an aerial of Vancouver, Washington, illustrates the same constraints of geography.

In Portland, development has climbed the west 'hill's' which includes 'Council Crest' at 1,100 feet, this was an early STREETCAR development with homes for the nabob's of that era. So the boundary DOES include some of those hills, but as the climb becomes steeper, development becomes less economical.

East of Portland as you have observed is a steady climb as far as Gresham, which is an independent municipality of some size (with it's own boundary), further east the climb increases to Sandy (with it's own boundary), beyond Sandy it's oxygen mask territory for the weak at heart. Boundary expansion will always be on the land with the least resistance, the basalt and piedmont alleviation, coarse gravel and mudflow deposits of the Gresham-Portland area will make for easier expansion, Jumping east of Gresham is unlikely.

The volcanic nature of the surrounding mountains (which also equals earthquakes) has been taken into consideration as well, one of the expressed purposes of the Urban Boundaries is PRESERVATION OF NATURAL RESOURCES. Many of these volcanic sites are local nature parks.


I wonder how many of these volcanic vents they included within the growth boundary?

CityLife

July 20, 2012, 01:07:00 PM
Ock, I see Citylife's point. The mountains are within the development boundary. They're no more a deterrent to sprawl than the Atlantic Ocean or our marshes are locally. However, an urban development boundary would definitely stop the outward growth in areas where there are no natural features to limit it.

Actually it doesn't stop it Lake. Portland has experienced a 16% DECLINE in density since the Urban Growth Boundaries were put in place.

Portland's UGB was put in place 40 years ago. At the time, they weren't trying to box in ALL future development, just set a limit on where they wanted future growth to stop. The UGB was likely established 5-10 miles outside of development at the time, so naturally with that room to grow, overall density would decline. Additionally, gentrification is well known to reduce density. Not to mention young people are less likely to have kids. So with Portland being an urban mecca that has gentrified, and has a lot of SINKS and DINKS, it would also likely lose some density in its established urban neighborhoods.

The altitude of Sandy is 1,000 feet, Troutdale 200 feet, Estacada 426 feet, and so on. I scanned topo maps and there is plenty of non-mountainous land outside the boundary. If there wasn't a UGB there would be a ton of leapfrog development east, south, and west of the boundary.  Especially with Beaverton west of the city, The 2 major universities to the south, and Mt. Hood and the mountains to the east.

The only real negative that the UGB has had is that it has enabled growth to spill over the Columbia (where it ends) and into Washington State.

Imagine if Jacksonville/Florida had enacted a UGB where 1-295 is in the 70's. You'd have a much different Metro Area.

Fallen Buckeye

July 20, 2012, 01:45:51 PM
The thing that makes the mountains and hills more of a deterrent to sprawl than say marshes is the stability of the soil. The side of a hill is prone to landslides and slippage especially in a place like Oregon that receives a ton of rain. In hometown, which is a couple hours Southwest of Pittsburgh, we get all kinds of problems with roads slipping. I remember they tried to build a town center into the side of a hill once and had a 90 foot retaining wall collapse.  That's in an area where the hills only have between 300-700' of relief. That's why these cities like Pittsburgh, Portland, Charleston (WVa), etc. are so oddly shaped. It is much more difficult and expensive to build and maintain development up the side of a steep hill, so development has to happen in the valley or on the the hilltop.

Ocklawaha

July 20, 2012, 11:56:46 PM
CHECK THIS OUT:  http://youtu.be/K1qY8nPqcCw









Exactly my point Fallen Buckeye, all of these photo's are taken in the 'hills' around Portland, Oregon. The truck in the mud slide illustrates the difficulty in building on the unstable hill or mountain sides.

Estacada? Hell's bells I only lived a couple of mile away in Boring, I'd love to see them try and plop a house down around the old Eagle Creek Trestle a remain from the interurban era.


Charles Hunter

July 21, 2012, 07:49:49 AM
When did SR 9B get moved to Oregon?  Thread drift anyone?  :)

Spence

December 12, 2012, 01:36:42 AM
Ocklawaha
July 18, 2012, 01:45:22 PM
Looking at the map is often a clue to the intent, in this case it's pretty obvious they don't plan to quit at Race Track Road. BTW Acme, the 'some other road' is indeed Race Track Road. Hooking into Race Track will make I-95 accessible from Julington Creek Plantation. Continuing on to St. Johns Parkway would certainly pull some of the SR-210 rush traffic off of the super-slab and reroute them onto the new I-795 (AKA-9-B).

If they're going to go ahead with this thing, in fact many of these 'things', then I'd wish to see I-795, cross the river onto Flemming Island, perhaps even pulling the stupid Branon-Chafee Turnpike crossing up and merging them together. The down side of their current plan is they will destroy the potential future of Clay County Barge Port at Green Cove Springs. Though Clay is asleep at the helm, just like Jacksonville, their port is one of the very few in the entire country that has marine, rail and airport all within the same grounds. They could convert these assets into a super-job-generator, with extension of one or two of the runways, at the old Naval Base, and relaying the railroad track to reach the docks. BINGO, instant regional intermodal terminal.  For a similar terminal with a slight disconnect to the barge facility which is some miles away, see Huntsville (AL) Intermodal Facility.
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