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Restore Jacksonville 2012

The City of Jacksonville has an immense number of older buildings over 50 years old; Our locally designated historic districts and landmarks include over 8,000 properties. Additional historic neighborhoods such as Arlington, San Marco, Ortega, Murray Hill, Durkeeville, and East Jacksonville, increase the number of structures by an exponential amount. These buildings have unique features that give these areas special character, but also require an appreciation, understanding and skill set by contractors and other building professionals. While much of the costs associated with new construction work today go directly to materials and products produced outside the city, historic preservation and rehabilitation projects generally center on specialized repair work and the retention of historic fabric, which means more dollars going to hire local workers and less construction debris going to our landfills.

Published April 25, 2012 in History      34 Comments    Open printer friendly version of this article Print Article


feature

Historic Preservation not only makes good economic sense but is also a very sustainable practice.

In October 2007, the City helped fund the first Restore Jacksonville event.  This three day program provided valuable information for homeowners, preservation enthusiasts, investors and contractors, from researching the history of one’s home to navigating the City’s review processes.  Five years later, the timing is perfect for holding a second Restore Jacksonville conference.  This time taking it one step further to show how an old house can also be a green home.


Barnett Bank Building image courtesy of Nomeus.

In April 2011, the City of Jacksonville applied for a State of Florida Preserve America Grant to host a local historic preservation and sustainability conference.  The basic goals and focus areas of the conference include:

1. Showcase how old buildings are inherently green

2. Showcase the best practices for making old buildings more energy efficient

3. Provide a training for contractors and other professionals working on historic buildings

4. Educate owners of older buildings on how to properly maintain and restore their structures

5. Inspire students/unemployed to pursue specialized building trades and increase the restoration workforce

6. Provide a better understanding of the Historic District Design Regulations and Certificate of Appropriateness (COA) review process

7. Educate the public on historic preservation and the economic benefits of historic preservation as outlined as an objective of Jacksonville’s Comprehensive Plan

During the first week of May 2012, homeowners and building professionals will have an excellent opportunity to learn more about how preserving older buildings was one of the first green concepts, how to make an old house more efficient, and how sustainability begins with preservation.  Why stop with recycling plastic and aluminum when you can reuse an entire building, capitalizing on its unique character, original green design, old growth wood, existing infrastructure, urban setting and embodied energy?  

This five day conference is filled with educational and entertaining sessions with nationally known speakers and local experts.  The intense two-day training on Wednesday and Thursday will cover historic preservation and energy efficiency topics that enable contractors and other building professionals to become better experts for their clients and avoid costly mistakes.  The general public sessions on Saturday will help homeowners make wiser choices for their older home, while learning more about Jacksonville’s architectural heritage.  The Restoration Resource Expo Hall will introduce attendees to products and services that help restore, repair and “green” old buildings.  Sunday’s events will provide interesting site visits to see first hand how “old” and “green” work together.  Friday’s speaker on downtown revitalization and the economic benefits and sustainable practices of historic preservation are not to be missed.  Lastly, special events include the Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission’s Annual Preservation Awards on Thursday evening.






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34 Comments

mtraininjax

April 25, 2012, 07:04:10 AM
Quote
Lisa Sheppard & Joel McEachin

Are the 2 reasons I would not attend. They are fanatical with regard to the horse-hockey laws for certificates of appropriateness. I live in the historic district and rebuilt one property with a COA and two without. Needless to say the one with the COA was a complete and total wear you down, do it our way, no matter if the contractor has a better way to make the house longer, piss poor attitude. You cannot work with the Preservation group, so you go around them.

Lisa is so fanatical, that if you have a 6 over 6 window, you have to have the SAME windows as the period in the historic district, no matter the fact that you can get 6 over 6 options in all sorts of varieties, for less money, and windows are not inexpensive, nope, must be the same as what you tore out.

Needless to say, people go around COAs as the rediculousness of the City Hall Planning is on full display, daily!

Dog Walker

April 25, 2012, 07:37:16 AM
Quote
Lisa Sheppard & Joel McEachin

Are the 2 reasons I would not attend. They are fanatical with regard to the horse-hockey laws for certificates of appropriateness. I live in the historic district and rebuilt one property with a COA and two without. Needless to say the one with the COA was a complete and total wear you down, do it our way, no matter if the contractor has a better way to make the house longer, piss poor attitude. You cannot work with the Preservation group, so you go around them.

Lisa is so fanatical, that if you have a 6 over 6 window, you have to have the SAME windows as the period in the historic district, no matter the fact that you can get 6 over 6 options in all sorts of varieties, for less money, and windows are not inexpensive, nope, must be the same as what you tore out.

Needless to say, people go around COAs as the rediculousness of the City Hall Planning is on full display, daily!

And it is people with this attitude towards historic buildings that makes the Historic Preservation Commission and the COA process so necessary.  Thank you Lisa and Joel for doing your job.

tufsu1

April 25, 2012, 07:58:57 AM
Thank you Lisa and Joel for doing your job.

+1000

cline

April 25, 2012, 08:35:04 AM
Quote
Lisa Sheppard & Joel McEachin

Are the 2 reasons I would not attend. They are fanatical with regard to the horse-hockey laws for certificates of appropriateness. I live in the historic district and rebuilt one property with a COA and two without. Needless to say the one with the COA was a complete and total wear you down, do it our way, no matter if the contractor has a better way to make the house longer, piss poor attitude. You cannot work with the Preservation group, so you go around them.

Lisa is so fanatical, that if you have a 6 over 6 window, you have to have the SAME windows as the period in the historic district, no matter the fact that you can get 6 over 6 options in all sorts of varieties, for less money, and windows are not inexpensive, nope, must be the same as what you tore out.

Needless to say, people go around COAs as the rediculousness of the City Hall Planning is on full display, daily!

I hear there are some good deals to be had over in the Fleming Island area as well as NW St. Johns County.  Maybe you should check it out.  Probably even have new energy efficient windows.

Tacachale

April 25, 2012, 08:37:29 AM
Quote
Lisa Sheppard & Joel McEachin

Are the 2 reasons I would not attend. They are fanatical with regard to the horse-hockey laws for certificates of appropriateness. I live in the historic district and rebuilt one property with a COA and two without. Needless to say the one with the COA was a complete and total wear you down, do it our way, no matter if the contractor has a better way to make the house longer, piss poor attitude. You cannot work with the Preservation group, so you go around them.

Lisa is so fanatical, that if you have a 6 over 6 window, you have to have the SAME windows as the period in the historic district, no matter the fact that you can get 6 over 6 options in all sorts of varieties, for less money, and windows are not inexpensive, nope, must be the same as what you tore out.

Needless to say, people go around COAs as the rediculousness of the City Hall Planning is on full display, daily!

I hear there are some good deals to be had over in the Fleming Island area as well as NW St. Johns County.  Maybe you should check it out.  Probably even have new energy efficient windows.
LOL! Seriously, if you don't like historic preservation, buying in a historic district may not your best bet.

Jumpinjack

April 25, 2012, 09:33:43 AM
I hope that no one will let their grudges keep them away from a great conference perfectly timed for Jacksonville. By the way did you notice that this isn't about historic homes only but about restoring old buildings and homes in Jacksonville. And there's plenty of them all over Jacksonville that deserve preservation instead of demolition.

The speakers are covering some good topics. I'm planning on going on Friday to hear Mr. Rypkema on the economics of restoration and preservation in neighborhoods and commercial. Also, the second speaker on repairing sprawl should be required attendance for planners and consultants.

Captain Zissou

April 25, 2012, 09:54:14 AM
Quote
I hear there are some good deals to be had over in the Fleming Island area as well as NW St. Johns County.  Maybe you should check it out.  Probably even have new energy efficient windows.

Wowwww.  I think you just proved mtrain's point.  He was trying to say that he restored 3 properties (how many have you restored?), but going through 'the appropriate channels' was more of a hindrance than a resource.  I have heard the same exact thing from a number of people.

I have told this story often, but it bears repeating: My sister lives on Belvedere in Avondale next door to a small brick bungalow that was owned by a lady in her 50s.  The lady was trying to redo her porch, so she removed the old windows that were in place and tried to install windows that would replicate the look of the old windows, but provided better insulation.  RAP said no way and did not allow her to put new ones in.  The lady tried a different window, but received the same reaction from RAP.  This went on for 3 years, all the while, the porch sat there with no windows.  Well, throughout this whole process, the lady was battling cancer. Last year she lost the battle with cancer and has gone home to be with the Lord, but her porch still sits there windowless.

RAP should be a resource to people trying to beautify the neighborhood and preserve its history, not the window police.

thelakelander

April 25, 2012, 10:01:03 AM
Btw, Metro Jacksonville will also be speaking at the conference on Saturday, May 5.  Our 50-minute, graphic heavy session will focus on the importance of historic preservation in preserving Jacksonville's local legacy, identity and heritage.  Using one of the Reclaiming Jacksonville sites as a starting point, we'll use that building's architectural characteristics and history as a door into Jacksonville's past, diving into forgotten stories exposing the city's musical heritage, rebuilding efforts after the Great Fire of 1901, role in the women's sufferance movement, and growth into a progressive multicultural urban center.

Kaiser Soze

April 25, 2012, 11:01:36 AM
Quote
I hear there are some good deals to be had over in the Fleming Island area as well as NW St. Johns County.  Maybe you should check it out.  Probably even have new energy efficient windows.

Wowwww.  I think you just proved mtrain's point.  He was trying to say that he restored 3 properties (how many have you restored?), but going through 'the appropriate channels' was more of a hindrance than a resource.  I have heard the same exact thing from a number of people.

I have told this story often, but it bears repeating: My sister lives on Belvedere in Avondale next door to a small brick bungalow that was owned by a lady in her 50s.  The lady was trying to redo her porch, so she removed the old windows that were in place and tried to install windows that would replicate the look of the old windows, but provided better insulation.  RAP said no way and did not allow her to put new ones in.  The lady tried a different window, but received the same reaction from RAP.  This went on for 3 years, all the while, the porch sat there with no windows.  Well, throughout this whole process, the lady was battling cancer. Last year she lost the battle with cancer and has gone home to be with the Lord, but her porch still sits there windowless.

RAP should be a resource to people trying to beautify the neighborhood and preserve its history, not the window police.
I have literally heard dozens of these stories and lived it myself.  RAP is a joke and simply needs to go away.

Dog Walker

April 25, 2012, 11:11:13 AM
What everyone loves about Riverside and Avondale is still here only because RAP started the whole historic preservation movement here in Jacksonville.

RAP has no enforcement powers and is a great resource for anyone trying to rehabilitate and old structure.  Joel and Lisa actually have samples of historically appropriate, modern, insulated windows in their offices.

The lady on Belvedere should have talked to them instead of the window salesmen.

fsquid

April 25, 2012, 11:17:53 AM
If RAP has no enforcement power, why didn't the woman just say, "screw you" and install the windows?

Kaiser Soze

April 25, 2012, 11:18:43 AM
RAP has no enforcement powers and is a great resource for anyone trying to rehabilitate and old structure.  Joel and Lisa actually have samples of historically appropriate, modern, insulated windows in their offices.
That's not true.  I have called them and asked for ideas and received no help.  Have also appeared before the preservation commission for my house, after notifying RAP of what I planned to do.  Never heard back from RAP but they sure as hell showed up to oppose my application.  Great job working with your constituents.

Kaiser Soze

April 25, 2012, 11:19:11 AM
If RAP has no enforcement power, why didn't the woman just say, "screw you" and install the windows?
Because the City does have enforcement powers and can require the owner to remove the windows.

Tacachale

April 25, 2012, 12:21:28 PM
Btw, Metro Jacksonville will also be speaking at the conference on Saturday, May 5.  Our 50-minute, graphic heavy session will focus on the importance of historic preservation in preserving Jacksonville's local legacy, identity and heritage.  Using one of the Reclaiming Jacksonville sites as a starting point, we'll use that building's architectural characteristics and history as a door into Jacksonville's past, diving into forgotten stories exposing the city's musical heritage, rebuilding efforts after the Great Fire of 1901, role in the women's sufferance movement, and growth into a progressive multicultural urban center.
Very cool. Should be a good conference.

cline

April 25, 2012, 12:56:33 PM
Quote
I hear there are some good deals to be had over in the Fleming Island area as well as NW St. Johns County.  Maybe you should check it out.  Probably even have new energy efficient windows.


RAP should be a resource to people trying to beautify the neighborhood and preserve its history, not the window police.

The City issues the COAs, not RAP.  And there are many, many folks that have restored homes and have gone through the process.

But at any rate, I plan on trying to attend on Saturday.  Sounds like some good stuff.

strider

April 25, 2012, 02:49:03 PM
mtraininjax and Kaiser Soze, your comments typify why Historic Departments and Historic Organizations sometimes forget they are here to help and feel they need to be very tough to get anything done right.  If the truth were to be told, you purposely set out to make the process hard on them, who in turn, make it hard on you.  You, after all, in you own little worlds, are obviously above those codes.

Having worked on many houses "restored" by those who feel the Historic Codes are not for them to follow, I feel bad for anyone who bought those houses after you "restored " them. 

Often, owners and contractors do not really understand the relationship that exists between the Historic Guidelines, the Building Codes and reality.  Even sometimes those charged with the enforcement of the codes need some help understanding it.  It is also a evolving process, one that changes often if not even case by case. Trying to ignore those codes is not the answer unless of course you care little of the future of these structures.  Neither is belittling those charged enforcing the historic codes.  Working within the historic codes is the right way and surprisingly easier than ignoring them if you know what you are doing.

Both of you need to go to this conference.  Who knows, you might even get a clue.

fsquid

April 25, 2012, 02:50:48 PM
If RAP has no enforcement power, why didn't the woman just say, "screw you" and install the windows?
Because the City does have enforcement powers and can require the owner to remove the windows.

Gotcha and I guess they take recommendations from RAP?

Bill Hoff

April 25, 2012, 03:05:50 PM
If RAP has no enforcement power, why didn't the woman just say, "screw you" and install the windows?
Because the City does have enforcement powers and can require the owner to remove the windows.

Gotcha and I guess they take recommendations from RAP?

RAP & SPAR act as advisors to COJ regarding these issues, more or less, through Design & Review committees.

Kaiser Soze

April 25, 2012, 03:55:26 PM
mtraininjax and Kaiser Soze, your comments typify why Historic Departments and Historic Organizations sometimes forget they are here to help and feel they need to be very tough to get anything done right.  If the truth were to be told, you purposely set out to make the process hard on them, who in turn, make it hard on you.  You, after all, in you own little worlds, are obviously above those codes.

Having worked on many houses "restored" by those who feel the Historic Codes are not for them to follow, I feel bad for anyone who bought those houses after you "restored " them. 

Often, owners and contractors do not really understand the relationship that exists between the Historic Guidelines, the Building Codes and reality.  Even sometimes those charged with the enforcement of the codes need some help understanding it.  It is also a evolving process, one that changes often if not even case by case. Trying to ignore those codes is not the answer unless of course you care little of the future of these structures.  Neither is belittling those charged enforcing the historic codes.  Working within the historic codes is the right way and surprisingly easier than ignoring them if you know what you are doing.

Both of you need to go to this conference.  Who knows, you might even get a clue.
What are you talking about.  I called RAP for help.  Did not get any.  Called again to discuss the variance I was seeking.  Never heard back.  RAP shows up to oppose me.  What clue do I need to get?  I bought in the area because I am a history nut and love old houses.  We have put in a lot of hard work and spent a god deal of money restoring a very interesting house.  I never tried to avoid code requirements.

As for belittling those charged with enforcing the codes, that I am not doing.  I am belittling RAP, an organization that is supposed to be advisory in nature.

strider

April 25, 2012, 04:32:12 PM
mtraininjax and Kaiser Soze, your comments typify why Historic Departments and Historic Organizations sometimes forget they are here to help and feel they need to be very tough to get anything done right.  If the truth were to be told, you purposely set out to make the process hard on them, who in turn, make it hard on you.  You, after all, in you own little worlds, are obviously above those codes.

Having worked on many houses "restored" by those who feel the Historic Codes are not for them to follow, I feel bad for anyone who bought those houses after you "restored " them. 

Often, owners and contractors do not really understand the relationship that exists between the Historic Guidelines, the Building Codes and reality.  Even sometimes those charged with the enforcement of the codes need some help understanding it.  It is also a evolving process, one that changes often if not even case by case. Trying to ignore those codes is not the answer unless of course you care little of the future of these structures.  Neither is belittling those charged enforcing the historic codes.  Working within the historic codes is the right way and surprisingly easier than ignoring them if you know what you are doing.

Both of you need to go to this conference.  Who knows, you might even get a clue.
What are you talking about.  I called RAP for help.  Did not get any.  Called again to discuss the variance I was seeking.  Never heard back.  RAP shows up to oppose me.  What clue do I need to get?  I bought in the area because I am a history nut and love old houses.  We have put in a lot of hard work and spent a god deal of money restoring a very interesting house.  I never tried to avoid code requirements.

As for belittling those charged with enforcing the codes, that I am not doing.  I am belittling RAP, an organization that is supposed to be advisory in nature.

You put yourself in the same "bucket" as mtraininjax with your comments,  so I guess I inferred that you felt the same way he obviously does.  I still suspect I'm right.  Also, the key word in your post above is "variance".  There are things that both RAP and the Historic Department  can not waive - or give a variance for.  Without knowing what you were asking for, I can't say on your particular case.  However, keep in mind that the idea of a variance is to allow you to do something that is normally outside of the codes.  Sometimes variances can be considered a right by exception if you meet certain criteria, but often they are just a way to get something you want that would normally not be allowed.   And getting a clue in this case may have been going to the design and review board meeting before the actual HPC meeting so you were not blindsided by their opposition and stood a chance of presenting a solid case for yourself.  The other things is, did the Historic Department recommend it for approval or did they tell you when you got the COA that it might be a tough fight? Lots of unknowns here.

In the FWIW column, RAP's Design and Review is typically OK, the members normally seem to have a clue and will work with you as long as they believe you are willing to work with them.  But knowing the codes and the issue very well yourself is important.  I have never been to a SPAR Design and Review meeting (nor will I be attending one) and still have gotten what I needed at HPC.

Kaiser Soze

April 25, 2012, 04:50:35 PM
mtraininjax and Kaiser Soze, your comments typify why Historic Departments and Historic Organizations sometimes forget they are here to help and feel they need to be very tough to get anything done right.  If the truth were to be told, you purposely set out to make the process hard on them, who in turn, make it hard on you.  You, after all, in you own little worlds, are obviously above those codes.

Having worked on many houses "restored" by those who feel the Historic Codes are not for them to follow, I feel bad for anyone who bought those houses after you "restored " them. 

Often, owners and contractors do not really understand the relationship that exists between the Historic Guidelines, the Building Codes and reality.  Even sometimes those charged with the enforcement of the codes need some help understanding it.  It is also a evolving process, one that changes often if not even case by case. Trying to ignore those codes is not the answer unless of course you care little of the future of these structures.  Neither is belittling those charged enforcing the historic codes.  Working within the historic codes is the right way and surprisingly easier than ignoring them if you know what you are doing.

Both of you need to go to this conference.  Who knows, you might even get a clue.
What are you talking about.  I called RAP for help.  Did not get any.  Called again to discuss the variance I was seeking.  Never heard back.  RAP shows up to oppose me.  What clue do I need to get?  I bought in the area because I am a history nut and love old houses.  We have put in a lot of hard work and spent a god deal of money restoring a very interesting house.  I never tried to avoid code requirements.

As for belittling those charged with enforcing the codes, that I am not doing.  I am belittling RAP, an organization that is supposed to be advisory in nature.

You put yourself in the same "bucket" as mtraininjax with your comments,  so I guess I inferred that you felt the same way he obviously does.  I still suspect I'm right.  Also, the key word in your post above is "variance".  There are things that both RAP and the Historic Department  can not waive - or give a variance for.  Without knowing what you were asking for, I can't say on your particular case.  However, keep in mind that the idea of a variance is to allow you to do something that is normally outside of the codes.  Sometimes variances can be considered a right by exception if you meet certain criteria, but often they are just a way to get something you want that would normally not be allowed.   And getting a clue in this case may have been going to the design and review board meeting before the actual HPC meeting so you were not blindsided by their opposition and stood a chance of presenting a solid case for yourself.  The other things is, did the Historic Department recommend it for approval or did they tell you when you got the COA that it might be a tough fight? Lots of unknowns here.

In the FWIW column, RAP's Design and Review is typically OK, the members normally seem to have a clue and will work with you as long as they believe you are willing to work with them.  But knowing the codes and the issue very well yourself is important.  I have never been to a SPAR Design and Review meeting (nor will I be attending one) and still have gotten what I needed at HPC.
FTR, I received my variance and politely told the RAP representative to f*ck off.

I would have attended the design and review board committee if I had known about it.  Unfortunately they did not care to hear me or my plans for the house.  They simply did not bother to call me back.

Dog Walker

April 25, 2012, 06:33:54 PM
Quote
I would have attended the design and review board committee if I had known about it.  Unfortunately they did not care to hear me or my plans for the house.  They simply did not bother to call me back.

Until very recently RAP had exactly ONE paid staff member.  It is all volunteers otherwise.  With the success of RAM, there are now THREE paid staff members.  WOW, huge organization!  That they are all grossly overworked and have one or two night meeting every week is a given.

I've restored three buildings in the district, two of them condemned and about to be bulldozed.  Both RAP and the Historic Preservation Committee staff were of enormous help in navigating the COA, Permitting, and Variance processes.  But, I went to them both seeking help, not all bowed-up and bristly from having to ask permission to do something with MY property.  Everything went very smoothly on a difficult project.  Cop and attitude and you might just get attitude back.  Human nature.

This Restore Jacksonville conference is going to be full of information for contractors and homeowners.  It is a project of the City of Jacksonville Historic Preservation Committee.  If you are going to work on old houses this is a fantastic opportunity to learn the techniques and requirements.

Remember, the greenest building is one that already exists and they can be made energy efficient without destroying the historic character too.  That is what this conference is all about.  Good stuff!

Kaiser Soze

April 26, 2012, 09:09:31 AM

Until very recently RAP had exactly ONE paid staff member.  It is all volunteers otherwise.  With the success of RAM, there are now THREE paid staff members.  WOW, huge organization!  That they are all grossly overworked and have one or two night meeting every week is a given.

I fully recognize that.  But when that one employee shows up to oppose my variance rather than put in the 5 minutes to return my call,that's not helping your constituents and it sure as hell is not aiding in the preservation of the area.  My wife and I would have liked very much to become very involved with RAP when we moved to the area.   Its actions have turned us against it.

fieldafm

April 26, 2012, 09:19:21 AM
Quote
Remember, the greenest building is one that already exists and they can be made energy efficient without destroying the historic character too.  That is what this conference is all about.  Good stuff!

+1

Timkin

April 26, 2012, 05:51:39 PM
Quote
Remember, the greenest building is one that already exists and they can be made energy efficient without destroying the historic character too.  That is what this conference is all about.  Good stuff!

+1

++1

Dog Walker

April 30, 2012, 05:19:01 PM
Don't forget the Restore Jacksonville Conference at the library later this week.  There are lots of MetroJacksonville people involved.

Ennis and Nomeous will be there with their book too!

stephendare

April 30, 2012, 05:49:58 PM
Don't forget the Restore Jacksonville Conference at the library later this week.  There are lots of MetroJacksonville people involved.

Ennis and Nomeous will be there with their book too!

Thanks DogWalker.  Ennis and I will both be presenting for metrojacksonville as part of the program as well!

grimss

May 03, 2012, 12:32:02 PM
Just got an email from RAP that details a number of Saturday's sessions (including Stephen and Ennis's) and includes a $5 discount off walk-up admission. I'm impressed by the variety of talks. http://mim.io/14c292?fe=1&pact=9057926095

Dog Walker

May 03, 2012, 01:18:15 PM
That Windows 101 seminar on Saturday morning is going to be well worth the price of admission by itself if it can teach me how to weatherstrip my drafty old windows.  The people giving it are supposed to be experienced experts in the repair and upgrading of historic windows.

stephendare

May 05, 2012, 11:07:26 AM
Ennis and I are getting prepped to go onstage now!

grimss

May 05, 2012, 09:11:34 PM
Ennis and I are getting prepped to go onstage now!

How did it go? Really sorry to have missed it, but I was schlepping kids to soccer down in Gainesville. Hope it was a good turnout. I went to the Friday sessions with Donovan Rypkema and Steve Mouzon, and these guys were TOP NOTCH. National-caliber speakers with tremendous perspective.  Both Rypkema and Mouzon took time out of their schedules to meet with Park & King/Avondale/RAP representatives at Whiteway at lunch to discuss issues of growth and parking, and what's worked elsewhere. High class.

nomeus

May 05, 2012, 09:37:45 PM
Ennis and I are getting prepped to go onstage now!

surely youre wearing your signature shorts and sneakers right??

stephendare

May 05, 2012, 09:41:35 PM
only when i have to go outside. nomeus

nomeus

May 05, 2012, 10:56:16 PM
only when i have to go outside. nomeus

i probably wouldnt recognize you in pants or long sleeves :)
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