BridgeTroll

October 15, 2010, 07:26:47 AM
If such a map could have existed 150 years ago when european immigrants such as the Irish, Germans, Poles, Italians, etc you would have seen similar geographic ethnic divisions.

Jumpinjack

October 15, 2010, 07:39:35 AM
I think the maps are interesting but I'm not sure what conclusions Rankin could draw from this information.

thelakelander

October 15, 2010, 08:24:51 AM
I don't know about Rankin, but MJ can definitely do a lot of things with these scaled density maps.  Especially when it comes to mass transit discussion involving Jacksonville and similar sized or smaller peer cities that continue to make investments that we claim we're to sprawled out for.  Expect to see these pop up from time to time in future discussions and articles.

archiphreak

October 15, 2010, 08:24:52 AM
Maps like these make for really interesting conversation, and some really cool looking graphics, but that's about it.  To say that people naturally gravitate to their own kind, in similar social/ethnic/religious groups....well, we all learned that in 5th grade world history.  It's nothing new and I don't honestly believe it will ever be any different.  People naturally seek surroundings where they will feel most comfortable and accepted.  I don't think any of these "divides" were engineered (unless you count I-10 and the MLK Expressway).  I think this is simply the natural course of human behavior.

BridgeTroll

October 15, 2010, 08:28:24 AM
As Lake said... they also show population density which is a very important aspect of urban planning.

Jason

October 15, 2010, 08:35:31 AM
Lake, I was thinking the same thing.  Just Compare the density of Nashville to Jax.... We certainly have enough to justify the same type of commuter rail system as Nash.

thelakelander

October 15, 2010, 08:46:02 AM

I don't think any of these "divides" were engineered (unless you count I-10 and the MLK Expressway).  I think this is simply the natural course of human behavior.

Historically, well before the mid 20th century they were.  There is a reason why many historic urban minority neighborhoods happen to be in flood prone areas, across the tracks or near older heavy industrial zones and it had nothing to do with expressways, white flight and urban renewal.  

Nevertheless, I think the density and growth patterns these maps show are much more important elements for discussion.  For example, draw the skyway on the Jacksonville map and you will clearly see how it misses places where people live.  Draw the Blue Line LRT on Charlotte's map and you'll see how it serves a corridor with less density than urban Jacksonville, yet is touted as being highly successful.  Draw Houston's 7.5 mile starter line and look at how small an area it actually serves yet still pulls in 40,000 riders a day.  Put in the Metro on DC's map and you'll notice a dense chain of TOD population centers connected by rail throughout that city's suburbs.  In other words, use these maps the right way and they can play a powerful role in ripping anti-rail sentiment and excuses to shreads.

Singejoufflue

October 15, 2010, 08:51:00 AM
The narrow mindset "it's always been like that" makes my stomach turn.

As race and population density only tell a portion of the story; I would like to see this map overlayed with economic data.  Additionally, can we see the progression of Jacksonville from say 1900 through today?

tufsu1

October 15, 2010, 08:56:39 AM

Lake, I was thinking the same thing.  Just Compare the density of Nashville to Jax.... We certainly have enough to justify the same type of commuter rail system as Nash.

I don't think that is something to wish for....Nashville's rail line is struggling and may not last 5 years

Coolyfett

October 15, 2010, 09:14:25 AM
Separation of races. Very interesting maps. Houston looks like a rainbow. They seam to have many colors. Interesting huh blacks in Jax have no riverfront property.

thelakelander

October 15, 2010, 09:18:04 AM

Quote from: Jason on October 15, 2010, 08:35:31 AM

Lake, I was thinking the same thing.  Just Compare the density of Nashville to Jax.... We certainly have enough to justify the same type of commuter rail system as Nash.

I don't think that is something to wish for....Nashville's rail line is struggling and may not last 5 years

The Nashville line makes for a good comparison.  If you map it out, you'll see that it struggles for ridership because it misses the areas where people live in that metro.

Doctor_K

October 15, 2010, 09:25:07 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 15, 2010, 08:56:39 AM

Quote from: Jason on October 15, 2010, 08:35:31 AM

Lake, I was thinking the same thing.  Just Compare the density of Nashville to Jax.... We certainly have enough to justify the same type of commuter rail system as Nash.

I don't think that is something to wish for....Nashville's rail line is struggling and may not last 5 years

The Nashville line makes for a good comparison.  If you map it out, you'll see that it struggles for ridership because it misses the areas were people live in that metro.

Kind of like JTA's most recent B(R)T** proposal?


** (use of the term "B(R)T" courtesy ChrisWUFGator copyright 2010)

finehoe

October 15, 2010, 09:59:03 AM

Interesting huh blacks in Jax have no riverfront property.

I guess you've never been along the Ribault River.

I'd like to see the 2010 Census results plotted.

reednavy

October 15, 2010, 10:47:31 AM

Quote from: Jason on October 15, 2010, 08:35:31 AM

Lake, I was thinking the same thing.  Just Compare the density of Nashville to Jax.... We certainly have enough to justify the same type of commuter rail system as Nash.

I don't think that is something to wish for....Nashville's rail line is struggling and may not last 5 years

Ironically you say that and a report up here came out with an increase of 41%.

The reason why the Nashville-Lebanon line was first is becuase it isn't a CSX track. Ideally, they wanted to go to Murfressboro first, over 105,000 people, but CSX owns the rails to my hometown and all the other cities bigger than Lebanon.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20101012/NEWS01/101012117/Music-City-Star-ridership-up-41-percent

thelakelander

October 15, 2010, 10:55:06 AM
From the article Reednavy posted....

The increase shown is under the new management team, the Nashville Metropolitan Transit Authority, which took over less than two years ago.

Hmm.... maybe our mass transit system would benefit in the long run from a new management team?

Singejoufflue

October 15, 2010, 01:06:29 PM
A transit-only organization would be a great start.

heights unknown

October 15, 2010, 02:29:37 PM
Whites live generally away from central cores in the suburbs, while blacks live near or around central cores, hispanics live in close proximity to central cores but also in suburbs, and asians live away from central cores in the suburbs, but usually in their own selected areas as well; this is the way I see this from viewing these maps.

"HU"

spuwho

October 15, 2010, 09:22:45 PM
I love maps like this. It's interesting to see how people interpret the same data.

sheclown

October 16, 2010, 10:21:39 PM
I think it is a great way to instantly process the info.  Segregation is baffling.  So many reasons to chose to live one place over another.  The racial make up of your neighbors seems quite silly.

I also believe white people are more welcome in traditionally black neighborhoods than the other way around.  I live in one now and my neighbors are lovely and welcome me with open arms.

hightowerlover

October 17, 2010, 10:13:33 AM
i wonder if people will use data  like this to decide whether a neighborhood is "good" or "bad". 

thelakelander

October 17, 2010, 12:44:50 PM
I assume some will. Since I like cultural diversity, my eye was attracted to the most colorful areas on the maps.

BridgeTroll

October 17, 2010, 12:48:11 PM
It might also help finding good restaurants...

aj_fresh

October 17, 2010, 10:32:57 PM
Where are all the Jax Hispanics at?

simms3

October 22, 2010, 11:48:20 AM
^^^That prompted me to do some research.  I posted the following simplified analysis on SkyscraperCity.  All numbers are rounded and taken from the 2009 American Community Survey done by the U.S. Census Bureau.  I only did large metros for the south as the process is very timely.

The basis for this was that I thought that Jax definitely had more Hispanics.  Now I know our traditional Hispanics are not the loud and proud that you find in East Orlando or S FL, but we have always had a substantial Cuban and PR community here.  I have cousins that are half Cuban (dad is Cuban, mom is my dad's cousin) here and I had a Cuban English teacher in high school, and I believe they all just consider themselves white.  You would never know my English teacher was Hispanic and my cousins look white by have Hispanic names.  I also thought Atlanta should have more Asians.  I have never seen so many Asians as here (my own university is 30% FOB Asian with more American Asians bringing the total population even higher).  Buford Highway is literally the closest thing the South has to a Chinatown, except it is more Korean. Here is what I found:

DFW
White Non Hispanic - 3,300,000, 51.2%
Black - 889,000, 13.8%
Asian - 315,000, 4.9% (Mostly Indian and Vietnamese)
Hispanic - 1,800,000, 23.7% (Almost entirely Mexican)

Houston
White Non Hispanic - 2,440,000, 41.7%
Black - 967,000, 16.5%
Asian - 351,000, 6.0% (Mostly Vietnamese with a lot of Indians)
Hispanic - 2,015,000, 34.4% (Mostly Mexican but more mixed than Dallas)

Atlanta
White Non Hispanic - 2,890,000, 52.7%
Black - 1,700,000, 31.0%
Asian - 235,000, 4.3% (Mostly Indian and Korean)
Hispanic - 546,000, 10.0% (Mostly Mexican but mixed like Houston)

SE FL
White Non Hispanic - 2,036,000, 36.7%
Black - 1,074,000, 19.4%
Asian - 120,000, 2.2% (Mostly Indian and Chinese)
Hispanic - 2,234,000, 40.3% (Mostly Cuban and "other")

Miami and Houston by the numbers are the most diverse followed by DFW and then Atlanta.  I can't wait to see the 2010 numbers though.  This was done with the 2009 American Community Survey.

Jacksonville
White Non Hispanic - 888,000, 66.9%
Black - 286,000, 21.5%
Asian - 44,000, 3.3% (Mostly Filipino and Indian)
Hispanic - 82,000, 6.2% (Mostly Puerto Rican and "other")

Like I said above, can't wait for the 2010 Census numbers, I predict a much higher Latin population, between 10-15%.

Orlando
White Non Hispanic - 1,160,000, 55.7%
Black - 305,000, 14.6%
Asian - 78,000, 3.7% (Mostly Indian and Vietnamese but very evenly divided)
Hispanic - 500,000, 23.8% (Mostly Puerto Rican and "other")

Tampa Bay
White Non Hispanic - 1,900,000, 69.1%
Black - 308,000, 11.2%
Asian - 78,000, 2.8% (Mostly Indian and Vietnamese but very evenly divided)
Hispanic - 415,000, 15.1% (Mostly Puerto Rican and "other")

Tampa and Orlando have similar demographics, but Orlando is significantly more "diverse".  In terms of Florida, most diverse to least diverse it goes Miami, Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville.

Birmingham
White Non Hispanic - 747,000, 66.1%
Black - 315,000, 27.9%
Asian - 13,000, 1.2% (No dominant group)
Hispanic - 41,000, 3.7% (Almost entirely Mexican)

Definitely a "black and white" city.

Charlotte
White Non Hispanic - 1,103,000, 63.2%
Black - 393,000, 22.5%
Asian - 49,000, 2.8% (Half Indian, evenly split otherwise)...(I definitely saw all the Indians on my recent trip to Charlotte, they must all work Uptown LoL)
Hispanic - 160,000, 9.2% (Half Mexican, half "other")

Raleigh Durham
White Non Hispanic - 1,095,000, 62.9%
Black - 375,000, 21.5% (This number shocks me because it seems like such a white area)
Asian - 65,000, 3.7% (Mostly Indian and Chinese)
Hispanic - 165,000, 9.5% (Mostly Mexican)

Triad
White Non Hispanic - 1,078,000, 68.2%
Black - 314,000, 19.9%
Asian - 28,000, 1.8% (No dominant group)
Hispanic - 133,000, 8.4% (Almost entirely Mexican)

Well it seems Charlotte and RDU have very similar demos.  The Triad is not as diverse but still well mixed.

Nashville
White Non Hispanic - 1,186,000, 75.0%
Black - 239,000, 15.1%
Asian - 34,000, 2.2% (no dominant group)
Hispanic - 95,000, 6.0% (Almost entirely Mexican)

Memphis
White Non Hispanic - 618,000, 47.4%
Black - 578,000, 44.3%
Asian - 22,000, 1.7% (Indians are the largest group)
Hispanic - 59,000, 4.5% (Almost entirely Mexican)

Whoa, surprising demos here.  Nashville is a pearly white city and Memphis is almost evenly split between white and black, even moreso than Birmingham.  Percentage wise, I think Memphis is the blackest city in the south, even blacker than Atlanta and New Orleans.  Bottom line is TN isn't fully "diverse" and Nashville isn't very diverse at all.

Louisville
White Non Hispanic - 1,013,000, 80.5%
Black - 164,000, 13.0%
Asian - 16,000, 1.3% (Too small a population to have a dominant group)
Hispanic - 40,000, 3.2% (Mostly Mexican)

Whoa, I would HATE to be a minority here!  This city is almost all white!

New Orleans
White Non Hispanic - 649,000, 54.6%
Black - 411,000, 34.5%
Asian - 33,000, 2.8% (Mostly Vietnamese)
Hispanic - 78,000, 6.6% (Mostly "other")

Interesting demos here.  Almost 2/3 of Hispanics do not identify with one nationality here.  Also, large Vietnamese population.  And NOLA is otherwise split evenly between white and black, but still not as evenly as Memphis.  Memphis is a much darker city.  Just noting an observation here but both cities are *very* dangerous.

Austin
White Non Hispanic - 952,000, 55.8%
Black - 124,000, 7.3%
Asian - 76,000, 4.4% (Indian, Chinese, Vietnamese)
Hispanic - 523,000, 30.7% (Almost entirely Mexican)

San Antonio
White Non Hispanic - 768,000, 37.1%
Black - 122,000, 5.9%
Asian - 36,000, 1.8% (No dominant group)
Hispanic - 1,108,000, 53.4% (Almost 100% Mexican)

The two most "un-black" cities in the south.  San Antonio appears to be more Hispanic than SE FL!!!  Though in SE FL you have natives of every Hispanic country with few Mexicans and in San Antonio it is probably 97% Mexican.

Richmond
White Non Hispanic - 759,000, 61.4%
Black - 360,000, 29.2%
Asian - 34,000, 2.8% (Indians and Koreans are the two largest groups)
Hispanic - 52,000, 4.2% (Mostly "other")

DC Metro just for comparison's sake
White Non Hispanic - 2,750,000, 50.2%
Black - 1,400,000, 25.5%
Asian - 470,000, 8.6% (Very evenly split with all groups well represented)
Hispanic - 713,000, 13.0% (Almost entirely "other")

Richmond is blacker than I thought.  D.C. has the best "split" imo of all ethnicities.  It has a lot of everyone.  For Hispanics it's not just all Mexicans.  For Asians no one group completely dominates another group, though logically the Indians make up the largest group.

simms3

October 22, 2010, 11:49:40 AM

I just created a diversity ranking measure using Excel.  Since the 4 population groups did not add up to 100, I adjusted for that (usually they added up to between 98 and 99).

Then I added the 3 largest minority population percentages for each metro.  At this point, the smaller the number the more diverse the population would seem, but several parameters were not taken into account.

I then averaged the 2 largest population groups for each metro and added this number to the above.  Once again, the smaller the number the more diverse the population would seem.  The parameter of concentration of 2 largest groups was taken into account.

Then I average the 2 smallest population groups for each metro and divided the above number by this average to get a final score.  This took in the final parameter of the concentration of the 2 smallest population groups.  The smaller the number the more diverse the population.  Here are the results.

Houston 11.61
DC 11.72
SE FL 12.49
DFW 13.49
Orlando 14.63
Atlanta 18.96
Tampa Bay 19.64
Raleigh Durham 20.62
Charlotte 22.96
Austin 23.43
Greensboro Winston Salem Highpoint 27.56
Jacksonville 29.22
New Orleans 29.84
Nashville 34.43
San Antonio 36.79
Richmond 40.03
Memphis 45.82
Birmingham 59.06
Louisville 63.76

Places like San Antonio and Memphis scored low because all 4 population groups weren't as evenly split.  One was Hispanic and white and the other was white and black.  Birmingham and Louisville scored so low because they were just too white, heh.  The score favors a mix and not necessarily a heavy concentration of any one or two groups.

Whitest Cities by % of total population

Louisville   82.11%
Nashville   76.28%
Tampa Bay   70.34%
Triad   69.35%
Jacksonville   68.30%
Birmingham   66.83%
Charlotte   64.65%
RDU   64.41%
Richmond   62.87%
Orlando   56.90%
Austin   56.80%
New Orleans   55.42%
DFW   54.48%
Atlanta   53.75%
DC   51.56%
Memphis   48.39%
Houston   42.28%
San Antonio   37.77%
Miami   37.21%

Whitest Cities by Total Number

DFW   3,300,000
Atlanta   2,890,000
DC   2,750,000
Houston   2,440,000
Miami   2,036,000
Tampa Bay   1,900,000
Nashville   1,186,000
Orlando   1,160,000
Charlotte   1,103,000
RDU   1,095,000
Triad   1,078,000
Louisville   1,013,000
Austin   952,000
Jacksonville   888,000
San Antonio   768,000
Richmond   759,000
Birmingham   747,000
New Orleans   649,000
Memphis   618,000

Blackest Cities by % of Total Population

Memphis   45.23%
New Orleans   35.02%
Atlanta   31.62%
Richmond   29.90%
Birmingham   28.20%
DC   26.19%
Charlotte   23.02%
RDU   22.02%
Jacksonville   21.95%
Triad   20.24%
Miami   19.67%
Houston   16.73%
Nashville   15.36%
Orlando   14.92%
DFW   14.68%
Louisville   13.26%
Tampa Bay   11.40%
Austin   7.43%
San Antonio   6.00%

Blackest Cities by Total Number

Atlanta   1,700,000
DC   1,400,000
Miami   1,074,000
Houston   967,000
DFW   889,000
Memphis   578,000
New Orleans   411,000
Charlotte   393,000
RDU   375,000
Richmond   360,000
Birmingham   315,000
Triad   314,000
Tampa Bay   308,000
Orlando   305,000
Jacksonville   286,000
Nashville   239,000
Louisville   164,000
Austin   124,000
San Antonio   122,000

Most Asian Cities by Percent of Total Population

DC   8.83%
Houston   6.08%
DFW   5.21%
Austin   4.48%
Atlanta   4.39%
RDU   3.79%
Orlando   3.78%
Jacksonville   3.37%
Richmond   2.87%
Charlotte   2.86%
Tampa Bay   2.85%
New Orleans   2.84%
Nashville   2.24%
Miami   2.23%
San Antonio   1.83%
Triad   1.83%
Memphis   1.74%
Louisville   1.33%
Birmingham   1.21%

Most Asian Cities by Total Number

DC   470,000
Houston   351,000
DFW   315,000
Atlanta   235,000
Miami   120,000
Tampa Bay   78,000
Orlando   78,000
Austin   76,000
RDU   65,000
Charlotte   49,000
Jacksonville   44,000
San Antonio   36,000
Nashville   34,000
Richmond   34,000
New Orleans   33,000
Triad   28,000
Memphis   22,000
Louisville   16,000
Birmingham   13,000

Most Hispanic Cities by Percent of Total Population

San Antonio   54.36%
Miami   40.86%
Houston   34.88%
Austin   31.25%
DFW   25.22%
Orlando   24.32%
Tampa Bay   15.37%
DC   13.35%
Atlanta   10.20%
RDU   9.73%
Charlotte   9.41%
Triad   8.54%
New Orleans   6.70%
Jacksonville   6.33%
Nashville   6.10%
Memphis   4.59%
Richmond   4.30%
Birmingham   3.74%
Louisville   3.26%

Most Hispanic Cities by Total Population

Miami   2,234,000
Houston   2,015,000
DFW   1,800,000
San Antonio   1,108,000
DC   713,000
Atlanta   546,000
Austin   523,000
Orlando   500,000
Tampa Bay   415,000
RDU   165,000
Charlotte   160,000
Triad   133,000
Nashville   95,000
Jacksonville   82,000
New Orleans   78,000
Memphis   59,000
Richmond   52,000
Birmingham   41,000
Louisville   40,000

fieldafm

October 22, 2010, 11:08:35 PM
Simms, this is just my opinion and I dont know if this skews the numbers... but in my business we're required to fill out all kinds of surveys for compliance with fair lending laws (ex. Fair Housing Act, Equal Credit Opportunity Act, etc).

One thing that I always notice(and most of our clients answering the surveys find it confusing) is that there are two sections in the government monitoring sections... one is for race and one for ethnicity.  Ethnicity refers to a person as being either hispanic or not hispanic, but the race questions don't have such an option... and I notice that people that have Hispanic surnames most predominately select their race as being 'white'(that being what they feel is the closest option) and their ethnicity as being hispanic.  I have even noticed some Cuban people select that there race is 'black or African-American' and that there ethnicity as being 'Hispanic', and some Cuban people select there race as being 'white' and there ethnicity as being 'Hispanic'.  Im kind of a simple minded person, so I dont know the difference.  Im not an expert on this subject, but I do know I get a lot of confused looks on peoples faces.

I don't know how the census breaks it all down, but if its anything like the government documents we work with then it can be confusing for the person filling out these surveys.

thelakelander

October 22, 2010, 11:50:15 PM
I can see how it can be confusing.  After all, there are black and white hispanics.  I'll don't really understand why we try to box in people from several different cultures and ethnicities together.

urbanlibertarian

October 23, 2010, 11:43:50 AM
Rich Whitey on Illinois ballot:

Whitney is 'Whitey' on some ballots
Comments
October 14, 2010
BY DAVE McKINNEY Sun-Times Springfield Bureau Chief
SPRINGFIELD -- The last name of Green Party gubernatorial candidate Rich Whitney is misspelled as "Whitey" on electronic-voting machines in nearly two dozen wards -- about half in predominantly African-American areas -- and election officials said Wednesday the problem cannot be corrected by Election Day.

Whole article here: http://www.suntimes.com/news/elections/2801976,CST-NWS-whitney14.article

simms3

October 23, 2010, 12:38:22 PM
Haha somehow I doubt the whole Whitney-Whitey thing is not really a coincidence judging by all the "mishaps" in the past.

Also, I agree race and ethnicity are probably confusing to most people.  Ethnicity is your specific country of origin though and race would be like black, white, hispanic, asian, etc.  I think that with census numbers Hispanic can be checked in conjunction with any of the above races.  For black, white, and asian I only used numbers for "white non hispanic", "black alone", and "asian alone".

I don't know where the arabs stand...are they white or asian or african american?  They could be any of the above three.  That's why I think we should be proud of our heritage (for instance I am half Swedish, and the rest is a mix of British, German, and Czech) but we shouldn't break into race groups that divide us.  For instance my uncle lived in Zimbabwe or one of those southern African countries and now lives in Cyprus but if he had moved to the U.S. he could have called himself African American even though he was born in Sweden.  White Africans calling themselves AAs probably offend some of the black AAs and many AAs have more direct lineage to other locales beside Africa so is it technically correct to call all blacks AA?

I also think these "groups" divide people and create controversies and victimhoods.  At this point America is such a melting pot and nobody is any one thing so everyone should just be American because America isn't defined by one or two specific groups anymore.  But we should all be proud of our heritage (I can trace my lineage back to Wenceslaus II of Bohemia from my German/Czech side and I can trace my family back to Peter Brown on the Mayflower on my dad's side).

ChriswUfGator

October 24, 2010, 11:32:51 AM

Rich Whitey on Illinois ballot:

Quote

Whitney is 'Whitey' on some ballots
Comments
October 14, 2010
BY DAVE McKINNEY Sun-Times Springfield Bureau Chief
SPRINGFIELD -- The last name of Green Party gubernatorial candidate Rich Whitney is misspelled as "Whitey" on electronic-voting machines in nearly two dozen wards -- about half in predominantly African-American areas -- and election officials said Wednesday the problem cannot be corrected by Election Day.

Whole article here: http://www.suntimes.com/news/elections/2801976,CST-NWS-whitney14.article

Lmfao...

Funniest thing. Ever.