Update by Ennis Davis
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Jacksonville - Miami Rail Project Still Moving Forward
Proponents of Amtrak service on the Florida East Coast Railway are continuing their efforts to make this rail service a reality. If successful, this $268 million project could stimulate 2,100 direct and indirect jobs along Florida's east coast by 2013, with as much as six trains a day traveling between Jacksonville and Miami. Will Jacksonville position itself to take advantage of this plan?
Published March 25, 2010 in Transit 70 Comments
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aaapolito
March 25, 2010, 07:24:34 AMI would take the train from JAX to Miami over driving ANY DAY. One slight problem though, once a passenger gets off in either JAX of Miami, they're kind of stranded. See, unlike Penn Station NYC, Newark, or Union Station Philly, neither JAX nor Miami really have the local mass transportation connectivity that the previously mentioned cities do.
Don't get me wrong, I think that this connection is a step in the right direction, but I'm just think about the next level, local mass transportation.
Doctor_K
March 25, 2010, 07:43:45 AM^ Unfortunately, that same concern is repeated in just about every town that this affects.
I grew up in Melbourne. They have SCAT buses (Space Coast Area Transit), but they're about as well-run and routes about as well-planned as the JTA buses. Or at least, that was the perception.
reednavy
March 25, 2010, 08:07:53 AMWhy hasn't the City of Jacksonville adopted a resolution or letter of support yet? Hello, isn't it quite obvious when even the City of Bunnell does it before we do?!
fsujax
March 25, 2010, 08:38:24 AMI do not understnad why Glorious will not introduce a resolution. All she has to do is take the one JTA did and use it.
thelakelander
March 25, 2010, 08:48:03 AMGetting around Miami isn't as bad as it may seem on the surface. Once the train arrives at the MIC (now under construction), you would have the option of switching to Metrorail, Tri-Rail, the bus, renting a car or catching a taxi. If your destination was downtown or Brickell, you could take Metrorail to Metromover. I would not worry as much about Miami. Now Jacksonville is another story.
JeffreyS
March 25, 2010, 09:06:57 AMWell as soon as jax moves to the old terminal, builds the core neighborhoods streetcar and expands the skyway the trip will be fine.
Ocklawaha
March 25, 2010, 10:01:40 AMThis is a great and keystone project for Florida rail services, sadly, if the genius of Tallahassee prevails, it will lead to complete abandonment of all other passenger train routes within the state along with the single cross state link on the new "high speed" line from roughly Titusville to Tampa.
This is a good example of planning from a generation that doesn't understand surface transportation in general or rail in particular. Thinking only "endpoint to endpoint", "limited stop", "non-stop", and single link between end points is a great way to plan an airline, and a horrid plan for rail.
In planning surface routes, intermediate stops become vital. Schedule keeping is far more important then speed for speeds sake. Woven interconnected mass transit routes function better then solo lines. Well connected choice of routes blanketing the state always superior to single isolated lines on a map. The citizens for rail should have a series of battle cries... "What about Ocala?" or "What about Ft. Myers" or "What about Deland" and "What about Tallahassee".
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
March 25, 2010, 10:07:25 AMThis project or Sunrail?
hightowerlover
March 25, 2010, 10:26:38 AMall these stops in crappy towns arent necessary in my opinion. it really should just go to the major metro areas which it already does. it reminds me of the time i rode amtrak and it stopped pretty much every ten minutes up the eastern seaboard...out of all the new proposed stops daytona is probably the only one deserving a new stop.
Ocklawaha
March 25, 2010, 10:52:09 AMIf you want to ride a plane, you'll have to go to the airport. I'm just as certain that people that live in Melbourne, Fort pierce or St. Augustine, each feel that they deserve that single stop you propose. Trains can't compete on such exclusive territory as non-stop flights and since the schedule doesn't change that much with intermediate stops, why not serve them all? Hell, if it's non-stop trains we want, then it really doesn't matter if it's on the Florida East Coast or the Union Pacific, because then it just becomes a jumble of end-point cities.
Lake, This route won't cause the problem, but the problem is in "Tallahassee Think," they don't have a clue how to plan or operate a railroad. (They all used asphalt flavored pacifiers as babies). These buffoons actually plan to serve the whole state with two rail lines, JAX-MIA via the FEC, and the new line from Tampa to Titusville via Disney! Toss in Sunrail, TriRail, HART and JTA and that's the ball game. In other words, left to their own devices FDOT and hightowerlover agree 100%. The only cities worthy of trains are JAX-MIA-WPB-FLL-MCO-TPA and MAYBE --- DAB. Orlando will be the grand central station of the whole affair, the rest of the State can suck wind and die, they have neither population or a mouse.
BTW, after the demise of TAMIAMI TRAILWAYS, GREYHOUND decided to build a new station off downtown Orlando on John Young Parkway and route every bus in Florida through that hub. The result has been a wholesale slaughter of the schedules, operations, buses and patronage... Sounds like an example to me.
OCKLAWAHA
reednavy
March 25, 2010, 11:10:29 AMSo I guess not having another transit option possibly in place before the millions expected for St. Auggie's giant birthday in a few years is crappy?
Jason
March 25, 2010, 01:02:58 PMThere is no reason at all that all of the proposed cities can't have stations. Its still a 50 mile ride from Jax to St Aug and even further between St. Aug and Daytona. Both cities are tourism driven and both will benefit greatly from the connection.
There can still be express trains with limited stops between Jax and Miami as demand increases.
Doctor_K
March 25, 2010, 01:32:04 PMDog Walker
March 25, 2010, 03:26:38 PMRode a train from London to Portsmouth a few years ago to see the Victory (O'Brian/Forster nut, me).
It took an hour or so and made only two stops in between. At the end of the day went back to the station to ride back to London and got on the "local" by mistake. It stopped at every hamlet and wound a completely different route to the same station in London. There was a constant change of passengers at each stop until almost everybody got off at one. It was explained to me that it was the stop where the express train from Portsmouth, that left after we did, crossed stops with the local so that everyone on the local who was going all the way to London changed trains there.
We didn't as it was entirely too much fun seeing all the little towns in southern England, but it illustrated how a combined express/local system worked. Very well is the answer.
Oddly enough on the local, nobody ever asked us for a ticket and there wasn't anyone selling them at the Portsmouth end. I guess there was only a charge if you went all the way to London on the local, but never really figured it out and never paid a fare even at the London end. Strange.
Bike Jax
March 25, 2010, 03:33:29 PMWhat would really increase ridership for both transportational and recreational use would be the inclusion of walk on bike racks along with multi-stop passes. Amtrak already provides such service in many areas it services. But knowing total lack of vision our state, county and city leaders have. I'm certain none will broach this topic. I wish I was able to to make the trip down for the meeting.
JTA has service both to and from the current Amtrak station. The station is also is only 2 miles from the S-line Greenway and 3 miles from the FSCJ JTA hub making both within easy reach by bike. The multi-stop pass will allow people to set their own agenda as to where and when they use the train and what city's they visit cities along the route. Thereby increasing not only ridership but also increasing tourism in cities with stops.
stjr
March 25, 2010, 11:17:14 PMAre there rental car agencies at these stations? Do we have one in Jax? Miami? I would think tourists would prefer a rental car a la an airport for many of these stops. One doesn't really expect, at this point at least, to successfully navigate this state exclusively by mass transit.
thelakelander
March 25, 2010, 11:32:56 PMThere will be a rental car facility at the Miami location, which is currently under construction. JTA's plans don't currently show rental car facilities.
Miami Intermodal Center
http://www.micdot.com/mic_program.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Central_Station
JeffreyS
March 25, 2010, 11:36:05 PMThat looks good.
Ocklawaha
March 26, 2010, 12:40:04 AMEver wonder how OCK came into this world?
Long before Amtrak or UPS there was a way that kept the rails polished.
Between the REA box cars and reefers, and the express passenger cars, rode the money, one package at a time
Don't worry boys and girls, Amtrak president Gunn, and GW had a better idea!
This is the way it has worked on American Railroad's since the 1870's. On the Florida East Coast, the flagship trains such as the Champion's, Flagler, City of Miami, etc... all used a limited schedule and some would serve one group of intermediate towns and another would serve some different towns, with both serving larger burgs such as Daytona and Melbourne.
Funny we use the term express today as the fast train. IT WASN'T! The Florida East Coast operated the HAVANA SPECIAL from Jax to Miami, via St. Augustine - East Palatka - Bunnell - and southward, stopping at every station where they were flagged. So if you traveled from New York to see cousin Betty in Yelvington, FL. you bought your round trip in four coupons:
Coupon #1 - NYC - JAX via the ACL East Coast Champion (for example)
Coupon #2 - JAX - YLV via the FEC Havana Special
Coupon #3 - YLV - JAX via the FEC Havana Special
Coupon #4 - JAX - NYC via the ACL East Coast Champion
You would change trains and railroads in Jacksonville Terminal, in rare cases throughout the country your flagship train might even switch a through car out to hand off to the express, thus requiring no changes.
Since the tickets are reserved seat, and dated, Cousin Betty knows to be at the platform down in Yelvington as soon as church is out in San Mateo next Sunday. You pull in right on the advertised and everyone is happy. During the whole 2 weeks you enjoy the great shady oak lanes of this lost Florida village, that darn express train doesn't even slow down as it blows past the Yelvington station on it's way to Bunnell, having managed to stop in South Jacksonville, Bowden, Sunbeam, Greenland, Bayard, Durbin, Fairbanks, St. Augustine, Moultrie Junction, Elkon, Vermont Heights, Hastings, Spuds, and East Palatka, all on the trip down from JAX. As you watched it vanish into the trees southbound, you might have wondered it was really going to stop in Roy, Neoga, Diner Island, and Espanola, before it reached Bunnell... all together a 12 hour trip from JAX to MIA.
When the evening of your departure arrives, you stand on the platform as the headlight appears to the Southeast. Two Big FEC diesels, followed by 13 assorted baggage, mail, and express cars, finally stopping the lone coach. It was planned, dated, scheduled, and they have your business, after all do any of you even know how to get to Yelvington? In Jacksonville Terminal in time for a nice dinner at the station restaurant, buy a couple of plastic lawn flamingos, and head out to track 7, your bedroom suite awaits you.
Amtrak recently scrapped it's express business as one of the last GW moves... Express and Mail kept these trains in business until just a couple of years ago. It was the most profitable sector of Amtrak, and actually had a whole list of trains about to start off on completely new routes when the axe fell on this damn political animal. The kids at the top have never realized the wisdom of offering a choice of departure times, arrival times, intermediate stops or God forbid, more then 1 daily train each way per route! Amazing when competing with 32 bus schedules daily between New York and Florida, and many hundred flights, that Amtrak is even considered a "service" with two GI trains daily. They are not a service in the classic manner, at best a quickie copy in plastic wrap, with stir sticks and bare table tops!
It's not been a failure of the railroad or the technology as much as it has the complete ignorance of all things train, and such simple subjects as, Simon - Boardman's, "The Railroad, What it is - What it does". Far too many people trying to fly non-stop trains, and land them out in the edge of the county so they won't wake the roosters when they take off. Way too much bus think too, a seat, a blanket, tinted glass and AC... it's all you need after all. Imagine a cruise line operated by the US Navy... Got that picture? THAT IS AMTRAK, and yet it is all that we have left. The far right and the Republican platform as well as the talk a great game and do nothing Democrats are to thank for that favor.
So far, Amtrak and FDOT have been a surface transportation success story about as useful as a single floor elevator.
So the "express" system works and has worked for years and years, but should we expect people that plan trains without stops in places like New Smyrna, Ormond, or Palm Coast/Bunnell, to catch on to the concept?
There is nothing in the timetable that demands a train stop just because a town is listed, it's all about tickets and selling convenience.
So does the "Ancient One" hate Amtrak?? Shock of shocks NO! But not unlike BRT, SKYWAYS or POGO STICKS, there is certainly lots of room for improvement and I'll keep fighting to make that happen.
OCKLAWAHA
tufsu1
March 26, 2010, 08:28:34 AMusually the rental car facilities at train stations are small desks and/or kiosks...with cars parked in an adjacent garage....so I think the JTA plan would easily accomodate rentals.
fsujax
March 26, 2010, 08:05:03 PMLooks like JTA was represented at the Amtrak/FEC meeting in Cocoa today.
http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2010-03-26/story/east-coast-cities-push-amtrak-jacksonville-miami
CS Foltz
March 26, 2010, 08:52:57 PMRepresented by someone who knows what the heck should be going on or just represented! Hopefully by someone who knows what is needed not just a political hack!
JeffreyS
March 26, 2010, 09:10:44 PMGood article.
Ocklawaha
March 26, 2010, 09:19:42 PMTake a bow JTA, this sort of thinking is WAY overdue. KUDOS translates "magical glory", so KUDOS JTA!
OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
March 26, 2010, 09:21:54 PMWhen your right ......your right Ock! Maybe the City is finally starting to see the light? Prime Osburn should have been the hub or the blippin train station from the get go......but thats just me, a plain simple taxpayer!
tufsu1
March 26, 2010, 10:20:25 PMfrom what I hear, yes!
mtraininjax
March 28, 2010, 12:36:44 PMPrime Osborne in Jax is easy to see as the end of line station, but in Miami? Why in the heck would I want to go to the Miami airport as the end of the line? At least with the Prime, I am downtown, and the old FEC station used to be in downtown Miami, so why would anyone want to be at the airport? The old FEC lines are still there downtown, so why not build a small station, akin to Winter Park's, with easy access to downtown and closer to the beaches than the airport?
Traveller
March 28, 2010, 01:41:19 PMPersonally, I thought the site of the Miami Arena would have been a good spot for the Miami terminal. The FEC tracks go right by it, there's a Metrorail station across the street, and it's within walking distance of many downtown destinations, including AA Arena and Bicentennial Park (which, incidentally, is where I thought the Marlins' stadium should have been built).
tufsu1
March 28, 2010, 01:43:36 PMprimarily because the Amtrak route uses the CSX tracks (along I-95) in south Florida not the FEC tracks...there is a study underway to use the FEC tracks for local urban transit (think light rail or trolley)...but intercity and regional service are better served on the CSX tracks (far fewer street crossings).
Joe
March 28, 2010, 01:50:58 PMBecause that's where they are building the Miami Intermodal Center. It's a really amazing project that a lot of people here might not be familiar with.
From the MIC you can hop Metrorail to downtown in a matter of minutes. You could also hop on Tri-rail, the new bus hub, rent a car at the consolidated car rental building across the street, tax a taxi, catch a flight at the 2nd largest international hub airport in the country, or do buisness at the 4+ million square feet of commercial space that has been zoned for the land immediately adjacent to the MIC.
In other words, the airport is the perfect location for a Miami stop.
brainstormer
March 28, 2010, 04:25:50 PM^ Very cool. I'm headed to Miami on Saturday. I booked a Southwest flight because I didn't feel like driving. However, I would have preferred the train to flying if it was available. Perhaps JTA needs to rethink the planned transportation center here. It isn't too late to do it right!
Ocklawaha
March 28, 2010, 05:02:18 PMThe train WAS available, where were you?
OCKLAWAHA
Joe
March 28, 2010, 05:14:53 PMI'm not sure that a 10 hour trip (and that's if Amtrak is on time, which it often isn't) from Jax to Orlando to Lakeland then to Miami counts as "available" train service from Jax to Miami. That's about as viable as hitchhiking.
Again, all the more reason that this proposed new service would be great.
Ocklawaha
March 28, 2010, 05:48:00 PMWell Joe, your partly right about this one. Only the Silver Star makes the dead end turn to Tampa, then back out to Miami... It's stupid, and if FDOT had any sense, and helped fund Amtrak in Florida, that train would still be splitting in JAX, with the Tampa Section running Waldo-Ocala-Wildwood-Dade City-Lakeland-Tampa, while the Miami section would follow the Silver Meteor Southward via Palakta-Deland-Sanford-Winter Park-Orlando-Kissimmee-Winter Haven-Lake Placid-Sebring-West Palm-Miami.
Bottom line is the Meteor is available every day without the need to visit Tampa. Even so, it's a 9 hour trek but it is scenic and the food is good. Timekeeping is much better then it was just a few months ago now that Amtrak and CSX have found some mutual benefits from cooperation.
OCKLAWAHA
tufsu1
March 28, 2010, 06:13:49 PMsounds like you may be driving some anyway...since Southwest flies into FTL
Ocklawaha
March 28, 2010, 08:07:39 PMCurb Thy Tongue Naive! This is a full service site!
OCKLAWAHA
brainstormer
March 28, 2010, 09:52:07 PMI do realize this guys. A friend will be picking me up, so the point I was trying to make is this. Since I don't want to drive by myself I really have one option that makes sense. I can't spend 9 hours on the current train service because most of my weekend would be spent traveling. The flight into FTL will save time and money, but it isn't as convenient. If there was a train that got me there in around the same time as driving, I would probably take the train vs. flying even though it might take a little longer simply because the experience would be a lot more comfortable.
coredumped
March 28, 2010, 11:08:45 PMThis NEEDS to happen - I would love this and use it frequently. And it's only a 1/6th of the price of the outer beltway!
thelakelander
March 28, 2010, 11:20:00 PMFort Lauderdale is also considering light rail, modern streetcar and peoplemover systems to link their downtown, cruise port terminal and airport with the CSX corridor (Amtrak/HSR). The Wave modern streetcar system is anticipated to break ground next year and be in operation by 2013.
http://www.wavestreetcar.com/
mtraininjax
March 30, 2010, 03:23:46 AMSo if there was a multi-use transit hub at our airport, it would be perfect too? That logic is as out of date as the need for a downtown rail hub in Miami. The tracks are still there, would be better to deliver folks downtown, again, with a simple Winter Park-esque station, and allow people to explore downtown Miami, not the expansive airport.
What culture is there to see at airport again?
mtraininjax
March 30, 2010, 03:25:22 AMInteresting...., but what does this have to do with an Amtrak station downtown Miami?
thelakelander
March 30, 2010, 06:51:45 AMDT Miami already has a train station. Its called Government Center Station. It will be directly connected to the MIC via Metrorail. Its sort of like taking a rail line in suburban New Jersey and having to transfer at Secaucus to get to Manhattan.
tufsu1
March 30, 2010, 08:25:14 AMsimple...Amtrak uses the CSX tracks which don't go to downtown!
coredumped
March 30, 2010, 11:09:10 PMA little off topic, but what happened w/Amtrak's prices? I wanted to get a round trip from here to tampa this weekend, it's $120!!!
I can drive my V8 truck for cheaper than that!
reednavy
March 30, 2010, 11:18:21 PMholiday weekend
Ocklawaha
March 31, 2010, 12:49:53 AMIt's all seasonal, same trick the airlines and bus companies use. Try Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Memorial Day or Labor Day, any winter month in South Florida, and summer months in Vermont, Maine and the Pacific Northwest and you'll pay the price. Simple Supply and Demand. This is the reason we should all be raising HELL about the loss of so many trains under "Amtrak's Rescue" banner. It was bad enough that they cut 3/4's of all passenger trains off the day they started, SINCE they started they have cut:
NY-FL The Champion
NY-FL The Miamian
NY-JAX The Palmetto (First Operation)
NY-FL The Palmetto (Second Operation)
NY-FL The Florida Special (Seasonal Train)
NY-FL The Vacationer (Seasonal Train)
CHI-FL The Floridian
NORL-FL The Sunset
TPA-MIA The Silver Palm
and most recently:
ALL TRAINS VIA Waldo (Gainesville), Ocala, Wildwood, Dade City
With the congressional delegation we have in power, and HAVE HAD for several years, there is simply no excuse for our part of the nation to have been so ravaged by Amtrak and GW's Budget Bandits. Had the COJ stood up, and got loud, had we arranged a summit meeting or two, had the council and chamber and JTA passed resolutions of support... Well, it wouldn't have happened this way.
Now? Miami is getting the Terminal, and Orlando-Tampa is getting the Railroad, and Kissimmee-Deland is getting the Commuter Rail, and what do we have to show for it? "Monster Truck Show at The Prime Osbourne Next Week!" More Jacksonville political Bull Shit!
Imagine Jacksonville? This is the growth chart for AMTRAK CALIFORNIA where the State and Cities have gotten behind Amtrak and created a diverse system that actually networks. If you turn these charts backward they are amazingly close to Florida's Amtrak Record.
OCKLAWAHA
coredumped
March 31, 2010, 09:04:44 AMGood (and depressing for us) info Ock!
Duh - I didn't even think about that!
While I much prefer the train it looks like I'll be taking my truck this weekend. Too bad, it's nice to stretch out and watch a movie for a few hours.
I'll need to plan ahead next year.
tufsu1
March 31, 2010, 05:35:26 PMbtw....$120 is still cheapert than the cost of driving....total cost of driving is $0.50 per mile...which would be about $100 each way
coredumped
March 31, 2010, 05:42:13 PM$0.50 per mile?
My pickup gets abut 15MPG, so:
Roundtrip JAX -> TPA - > JAX 400 miles
400 / 15 = 27 (miles / mpg)
27 * 2.75 = $75 (gals * cost of gallon)
And that's if I round everything up.
Ocklawaha
March 31, 2010, 07:44:03 PMHumm? A 45' foot Eagle Model 15 Motor Coach get's 8 - 9 mpg highway... Maybe I should bring one over and we'll all "Bus Pool" to Miami!
OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
March 31, 2010, 09:13:19 PMMaybe a new business venture Ock...................BRT to Maimi? Dingle balls in the windows, blackout tint and one killer stero system?
tufsu1
March 31, 2010, 10:46:38 PM[quote author=coredumped link=topic=7984.msg141780#msg141780 date=1270071733][/quote]$0.50 per mile???? What vehicle is that?
that is the IRS calculation for 2010...but don't think about just gas...it is gas, maintenance, repairs, and insurance.
JeffreyS
March 31, 2010, 10:50:10 PMCost of car in terms of depreciation is also included.
stjr
March 31, 2010, 11:09:17 PMAdd interest/financing costs and taxes.
Also, the rail fare probably covers some cost of building and maintaining the rails but you could also add a tiny portion of our taxes. With the exception of toll roads, I don't see drivers factoring in the cost of the roadway in their mileage costs. Add a much larger portion (compared to rail) of our general tax burden devoted to roads, and road travel skyrockets.
coredumped
March 31, 2010, 11:22:59 PMExcept, I already bought the car, insurance and drive it daily. (anyone want to make a poll of people who don't have a car & live in jax?)
If you want to get that detailed we must include the cost of travel, the train is an extra 2 hours each way, so 4 hours x $25/hr = $100, ($25/hr ~ wage for someone in my field) not including me having to get up early (which i hate:)
I'd prefer to take the train, but the price cannot be 2x my personal vehicle. I've taken it to Tampa before and would love to again, but in this case but it's just not cost effective.
stjr
March 31, 2010, 11:49:38 PMFair enough to value your time. But, then add your increased time to take the car to a shop for more frequent maintenance visits to keep up with the extra mileage. And, the added costs of more oil changes, tire purchases, tune ups, and accelerated manufacturer maintenance scheduling (usually every 15K miles), etc. Not to mention the advancement toward that mileage that motivates you to replace the car altogether.
And, even though you already own the car, its depreciation is significantly impacted by the odometer reading. Every mile you put on cost you in depreciation on the back end. Insurance may be fixed but it can go up if you put on excess mileage over about 7,500 to 10,000 miles, as I recall, under many policies. Another "hidden cost" is that, as a statistical fact, the more miles you drive, the greater the chance one is exposed to having an accident of some sort. Spread the cost of that over your years of miles!
In the end, few people have really considered the true costs of miles driven.
I will concede that due to the distortions created by the super-heavily subsidized road network, we can all arrive at conclusions that are not reflective of the total costs of travel (our costs + the subsidies). If roads were all tolled, the decision in favor of driving would be far more infrequent.
P.S. The decision, under our existing ways of the world, also leans more toward driving as the number of passengers increases since the mileage costs are relatively unchanged (may increase some for reduced gas mileage) regardless of the number of passengers. Not so with seat tickets on rail. So, for 1 or 2 passengers, rail may win, for 3, 4, or more, driving may be on top. Again, if all true costs were computed, mass transit should almost always be cheaper than the auto.
urbanlibertarian
April 01, 2010, 07:11:17 PM"Again, if all true costs were computed, mass transit should almost always be cheaper than the auto."
True, but the auto will almost always be more convenient and that's very valuable.
thelakelander
April 01, 2010, 08:44:39 PMFortunately, expanding passenger rail service is more about giving people actual cost effective travel options rather than trying to pry people from behind the wheels of their cars.
Ocklawaha
April 02, 2010, 12:45:11 AM*{1} The Kitten known as Chessie, wandered into a Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Roundhouse in the 1930's, only to be adopted by the railroaders and later the whole railroad as CHESSIE THE KITTEN. Chessie traveled the system and had his own sleeping car berth where the famous Kitten image came from. Even in modern times when the detailed or ornate logos of yesteryear had faded, Chessie still managed to have it's silhouette carved into the giant "C" of C&O, on every locomotive, car and caboose, until absorbed by CSX.
I have a question for you... IF the train ran several times a day, perhaps even a short overnight schedule say maybe 10pm out of Jax, and 7am arrival in Miami, would THAT make a difference? Consider you could sleep all the way to Miami, which you will have to do either here at home or in some hotel. I've been after not only added daylight service from Jax - Miami, and Jax - Tpa, but also OVERNIGHT service. If the track work speeds up the schedule to 6 hours, then a 12:00 Midnight - 6:00am time slot would work. Seems to me a moving bedroom is superior to having to either drive OR lose valuable daylight hours.
Does anyone else agree? I'd like to hear from all of you on this one as I'm soon meeting with AMTRAK.
Consider some possible items as you consider this imagined trip:
The train could arrive in Miami in the way early hours such as 4am-6am time frame, BUT use the old railroad practice of allowing sleeping passengers to remain in "bed" until 8am.
The trains would be carrying through cars to or from the Northeast, so the market is not just JAX-MIA/TPA, rather the market is NYC-EWR-PHL-BWI-DCA-JAX-MIA/TPA, and return.
Another old railroad practice, allowing the JAX-MIA sleeping car and coach to be pre-boarded and occupied as early as 9pm and it is switched into the train before it pulls out for points south.
Being able to take your auto along for a flat rate, perhaps another $100 dollars each way?
Would these or other idea's convince any of you that the train might indeed be the most convenient and economical (both in dollars and time) to Miami/Tampa? Train travel by night is one of the lost wonders of the modern world and next to a giant cradle there is NOTHING else like it anywhere, thus the old slogan, "Sleep Like a Kitten" which was written about the night trains of the Chessipeak and Ohio (or *{1}Chessie) that is now a component of our own CSX.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
April 02, 2010, 06:59:18 AMGood point for travel between the major markets. I still believe the majority of potential riders using this service won't be going non-stop from Jax to Miami. Instead you'll have Jax to St. Augustine, Daytona to Melbourne and Stuart to Miami type trips. So I would be more interested in travel times that connect smaller outlying communities with the major cities. If scheduled right, I could see such a corridor service also having the benefit of being used for limited commuting purposes between cities along the coast.
JeffreyS
April 02, 2010, 08:24:01 AMI used trains as my hotel a few times when I did the back pack thing in Europe it was a great way to travel.
Ocklawaha
April 02, 2010, 09:23:20 AMThat is exactly why I'm pushing for a Florida overnight service. Any train that leaves New York in the early morning will enter JAX around 11pm to Midnight. Most of our train traffic has passed through southbound in the early morning HERE, meaning it left New York in the afternoon or evening of the day before. These trains roll through the night in Virginia and the Carolinas. With one train running a complete 12 hour flipped schedule, our southbound departures might look more like 11pm and 11am, rather then 8am and 9am. With only two surviving trains in our whole state, it only makes sense to spread the assets and stretch those dollars to cover as many passenger needs as possible. Are we agreed then that 2 trains with a 12 hour spread is superior to 2 trains running back to back?
OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
April 05, 2010, 04:06:41 PMI agree Ock! More bang for the buck but what do I know........I just get to pay for them!
LPBrennan
April 08, 2010, 12:14:16 AMToo many bad decisions by and about Amtrak to devote much time to this topic tonight. It's late and past my bedtime. Still...
Outside of the Northeast and a few- too few!- other corridors, Amtrak's idea of "service" has been a train a day... or three a week. Economically, this piles the entire cost of the infrastructure on one train, instead of spreading it out. It limits the choices to the traveler, especially when making a connection with a thrice-weekly train. Since its inception, with Paul Reistrop at the helm, who thought in airline, endpoint-to-endpoint terms, Amtrak ignored the possibilities of connecting trains. In those days it made some trains "limited stop" trains: I recall the "Florida Special" in '71-'72 as being "Non-stop" from Richmond to Jacksonville.
The multitude of destinations is a strong point that should have been exploited. I was on the "Sunset" once and chatted with a woman who got on in Palatka, going to see her grandchildren in Pensacola. It was too far and fatiguing for her to drive, there was no reasonable bus schedule, and you can't fly between the two.
As for expanding routes... well, there was no money and no equipment and no foresight or marketing or... Lost opportunities abound. Imagine a train or two between Chicago and Bramson, Missouri? A family-friendly destination with a family-friendly means of getting there. How long did it take to add Boston-Portland service... and no further than that? And no North-South connection in Beantown? Jacksonville-Atlanta? Or on to Chicago- a re-incarnated Dixie Flyer? Just look at the laughable national map! What holes exist?
Shoot... I gotta go. More rant later...
CS Foltz
April 08, 2010, 06:56:57 AMNo rant LP when it is the truth! I would swear on a stack of bibles whatever hocky puck is running Amtrak was trained in the City of Jacksonville at one of those high paying AMIO positions! They have about the same vision and plan which equates into nothing!
LPBrennan
April 08, 2010, 07:36:22 AMBack in 1979, when Amtrak was holding "hearings" on the fate of the Floridian, I attended the one here- in the old Hilton, I believe. After the presentation, the public was invited to speak for five minutes each. I spoke with only a few notes on an index card. I said if Amtrak's policy had been to deliberately discourage patronage on the Floridian, they would have done exactly what had been done with the train since its inception. Its schedule and route varied frequently, often flopping twelve hours from timetable to timetable. The ride became longer and longer. The equipment was the oldest in Amtrak's roster. (I have copies of Wayner's publications and had roof of that.) When I finished, I was roundly applauded by the audience- most gratifying- and received a mention in the T-U's piece the next day.
We` all knew it was futile and the alleged hearings were strictly pro forma. The Carter administration had made up its mind and the Floridian and other trains fell to the ax. It's odd... Republicans have a reputation for criticizing Amtrak, but more damage was done to the system by Jimmy Carter than anyone else. Aside from the idiotic way it was set up in the first place, of course. A toothless, bootless underfunded agency whose purpose, of course, was to save PennCentral from the burden of passenger service, run the thing for five years or so, then kill the long-distance train altogether, while weeping crocodile tears over our inability to save it. I suppose Carter was merely carrying out the unstated purpose, which had been de-railed (heh) by the Arab oil embargo. i guess he felt the annoyance had been prolonged a few years.
I wish there were a good answer to the problem. Roads, canals, airports- all transportation is subsidized: The amazing thing is that rail lasted as long as it did with as little subsidy as it had. Only when the subsidies provided the roads and airports proved overwhelming after World War II did the railroad industry falter so badly under the rules and regulations that handicapped it.
thelakelander
April 29, 2010, 07:57:19 PMhttp://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php?id=530876
stjr
April 29, 2010, 09:36:04 PMAfter her quote about avoiding controversy with the Human Rights Commission appointment, I wonder how credible she is at promoting anything other than herself.
tufsu1
April 29, 2010, 10:20:29 PMI don't think one has to wonder
Jaxson
July 21, 2010, 08:39:55 AMMakes you wonder why the good ol' boys wanted her on the city council instead of Ju'Coby Pittman... LOL