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1. Reduces Traffic Congestion
Any typical urban or suburban road has a maximum passenger per direction, per hour capacity (automobile only) of 2,400 persons per lane. In one hour A single track Light Rail line can move the equivalent of 8 lanes of Expressway. A double tracked Light rail system has the passenger per hour capacity of 16 expressway lanes, (excluding buses). In order to move 20,000 people per direction, per hour, a highway would need 18 lanes.
Buses as a substitute fail miserably in a apples to apples comparison. Even with exclusive busways, it would take 30 articulated buses, each carrying 120 passengers an hour to move 7,500 passengers. The bus system will require a driver for every vehicle, the Light Rail uses railroad technology to and can operate entrain with one operator for several vehicles.
2. Positive Economic Impact
A report commissioned by the Federal Transit Administration to understand the economic impact of public transportation found that there was a significant positive economic impact on jobs and business revenues. The study found that in the year following the transit investment, 314 jobs are created for each $10 million invested in transit capital funding. In addition, transit operations spending provides for a direct infusion to the local economy with more than 570 jobs created for each $10 million invested in the short term.
3. Business Attractor
Almost half of the nation's Fortune 500 companies, representing over $2 trillion in annual revenues, are headquartered in America's transit-intensive metropolitan areas.
4. Business Sales Gains
Businesses would realize a gain in sales of three times the public sector investment in transit capital - a $10 million investment results in a $30 million gain in sales. Regarding transit operations spending, businesses would see a $32 million increase in business sales for each $10 million in transit operations spending.
5. Economic Development Generator
Rail lines are fixed, high-value assets. Developers are more comfortable investing capital into a system that will continue. Since 1977, when the first Metrorail station opened in Virginia, Metrorail has generated substantial economic benefits for the Commonwealth. By 2010, Metrorail will generate: $2.1 billion in additional Commonwealth revenues and net revenues of $1.2 billion (in excess of the Commonwealth contributions to Metrorail).
Every taxpayer dollar invested in public transportation generates about $4 to $9 in economic returns, according to the American Public Transportation Association.
6. Cheaper than Roadways
New urban highways cost as much as $100 million per mile, whereas the Norfolk light rail line costs about $31 million a mile.
7. Saves You Money on Gas
Public transportation saves more than 855 million gallons of gasoline, or 45 million barrels of oil, a year – enough to heat and cool one-fourth of American homes annually, according to the Center of Transportation Excellence.
8. Better for the Environment
Public transportation generates, per passenger mile, 95 percent less carbon monoxide and 92 percent less volatile organic compounds than passenger vehicles – and about half as much caron dioxide and nitrogen oxide.
9. Traffic Congestion Costs Money, Transit Saves Money
Without transit, the nation's $40 billion in annual traffic congestion losses would be $15 billion higher. In fact, if all the Americans who take transit to work decided to drive, their cars would circle the Earth with a line of traffic 23,000 miles long. Americans lose more than 1.6 million hours a day stuck in traffic.
10. Transit Reduces Family Spending Budget
Transportation accounts for approximately 17 percent of our Gross Domestic Product, which means transportation is critical to business and personal economic security. For American families, transportation represents 18 percent of household spending, the second largest expenditure after housing. Americans living in transit intensive metropolitan areas save $22 billion per year in transportation related expenses.
The annual cost of driving a single-occupant vehicle is $4,800 to $9,700, depending on mileage. The annual average cost for public transportation for one adult is $200 to $2,000, depending on services used, according to the Center for Transportation Excellence.
11. Increases Property Value
Properties located within a quarter-mile radius of a light rail station increase in value by up to 25 percent more than other properties, according to studies conducted by the Urban Land Institute. There are some exceptions, the studies show, such as properties next to Park and Ride lots.
http://www.ridethetide.com/about_the_tide/benefits_of_light_rail.shtml
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CS Foltz
February 03, 2010, 08:07:55 AMBig Guy..............your preaching to the choir! WE allready know this.........the problem is convincing the powers that currently run things. JTA has no concept, idea or inkling about "Rail".....their responce is either more bus's or concrete or both! We know that is not the total answer to much of anything but that's JTA's mantra!
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 09:12:16 AMThe "powers that be" follow the site as well. So we have to drill these points home from time to time.
fsujax
February 03, 2010, 09:20:03 AMI wonder if any "powers that be" on the City Council are reading the site? besides Glorious.
mtraininjax
February 03, 2010, 09:27:54 AMCSX is investing 40+ million in the port rail system. Be happy with that. Real jobs and real commerce will be a result.
L.P. Hovercraft
February 03, 2010, 09:42:30 AMI'm not sure how effective grassroots petitions are in the long run, but has anyone in the recent past presented the mayor, city council and JTA with a petition signed by Jacksonville citizens that demands an investment in rail in our city? If not, may be worth a shot. Set up a booth at the Riverside Arts Market when it starts up again in the spring--that would probably get a few hundred signatures right there.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 09:46:14 AMReal jobs and real commerce. I like the sound of that. Why not have more of it by piggybacking CSX's investment. That $40 million bypass will free up some existing track capacity throughout the Northside. Simply adding the city-owned S-Line to this mix would not only benefit the port, but also create a decent urban rail starter line that could have the power to immediate stimulate economic development in the urban core. I call this killing two birds with one stone.
JeffreyS
February 03, 2010, 10:00:46 AMIs your point that somehow transit rail will mess up CSX? Or maybe Jacksonville has one good thing going on so the job is done?
We have one residential tower downtown be happy with that.
The Jags won a game be happy with that.
We have on well kept house on the block be happy with that.
Obviously one could go on and on with a list like this but my favorite would be.
There is another city out there who will settle for the minimum it already has be happy with that.
Let's try to do better in Jax.
Streetcar now.
tcu70
February 03, 2010, 11:00:15 AMGlad to see you're looking at the Norfolk light rail. Perhaps you've seen the articles about our cost overruns and recent management change. This can happen with any large project not just light rail. In any event, I'm looking forward to riding the Tide as I live near Norfolk. I have memories of my Jax-born parents talking about taking the streetcar downtown from 3rd and Main back in the "olden days". I applaud your ideas for Jacksonville.
Shwaz
February 03, 2010, 11:10:46 AMDoes Jacksonville have any funds to invest?
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 11:20:58 AMYes, if we can scrape together $60 million for a highway overpass or +$20 million for riverwalk and Metropolitan Park improvements, we have funds to invest. We just need to change our spending priorities.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 11:22:27 AMYes, we're checking you out. Hopefully, we can stick to the basics and avoid the bells and whistles added to the project, that has resulted in the cost overruns its experiencing.
Shwaz
February 03, 2010, 11:54:51 AMAccording to the math in the article this $80 million would pay for 4 miles of rail transit. Does Jacksonville have enough for a full scale plan?
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 12:00:30 PMLittle Rock's River Rail Streetcar
If you went no frills (basic rail project only, no associated streetscape or over-the-top equipment, station designs, landscaping, etc.), you can easily do a streetcar system for under $10 million a mile. For example, Little Rock's streetcar system cost them around $8.3 million/mile. So $80 million could buy you something real nice.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 12:04:54 PMBtw, just to give you an idea of size, four miles of track would be enough to run a line from Riverside through Downtown and up into Springfield.
Shwaz
February 03, 2010, 12:13:05 PMWell then I'm all for it... maybe as an extension of the skyway.
fsujax
February 03, 2010, 12:27:52 PMWell, how do we get the City Council to support this effort? It is going to take more than just one or two of them supporting it. Frankly, JTA can't be the lone force trying to get the city to invest in streetcars. It is going to take a concerted effort from lots of folks to create an atmosphere of City support. There is no reason why can't build a "no-frills" system here. Connecting Riverside, Downtown and Springfield with a streetcar would do wonders for the urban core. Unfortunately, there are those who work within the circle of decision makers that believe you have to have the development in place before the streetcar. That's a seriously flawed viewpoint, but that is what we face.
Lunican
February 03, 2010, 12:31:53 PMEven with that viewpoint, there are plenty of existing destinations between Riverside, Downtown, and Springfield.
zoo
February 03, 2010, 12:37:51 PMThis is the kind of basic economic development math our leadership misses every time. Parks are a big part of it, too, but the connectivity piece between it all gets neglected. Lets also not forget the aesthetics of streetcar as a positive addition to vibrancy, despite what the suburban-minded JaxPride/sign nazis think. Please give us more gray and black slabs (concrete and asphalt) to look at -- NOT.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 12:38:22 PMEasy. We have to successfully make the economic development argument. We also have to make this a key issue in the upcoming race for mayor.
Without the road, sprawl can not occur on its own. In a similar fashion, density to support rail does not come first without the rail system to serve it. In short, if you want density, you have to add the feature that creates it.
What we face with our politicians is no different than what MJ faced with JTA when we first begin to shoot down the deck of cards the dedicated busways had been built upon.
This local type of shortsighted thinking can be defeated by the constant bombardment of local historical development patterns, economic/cost comparisons and recent examples of mass transit projects in cities similar to Jacksonville's sprawl based recent makeup.
hightowerlover
February 03, 2010, 01:47:48 PMthis was one of your better transit oriented articles, clearly showing the arguments for rail over bus with something that a politician might actually listen to.
hightowerlover
February 03, 2010, 03:02:25 PMHere's a sign: Print it out and let's start a protest at City Hall.
fsujax
February 03, 2010, 03:33:34 PM^^Nice. Now let's get started!!
CS Foltz
February 03, 2010, 05:01:07 PMDoes anyone know if City Hall can read?
mtraininjax
February 03, 2010, 07:05:50 PMThat is not the issue here, the real issue is Does City Hall Care about Metro Jax's demands to install rail?
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 07:14:54 PMProbably not. However, they did not care about Metro Jax's demands to keep BRT from ruining Adams, Bay and Forsyth Streets in the heart of DT when we got started either. We all know how that turned out.
buckethead
February 03, 2010, 07:24:13 PMNever let the fear of going unheard silence your voice.
I should send that to hallmark.
urbanlibertarian
February 03, 2010, 07:32:35 PMSince there have been no posts in dispute of the article, I offer:
From "Rails Won't Save America" by Randall O'Toole:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp107.pdf
Rising gas prices and concerns about greenhouse gases have stimulated calls to build more rail transit lines in urban areas, increase subsidies to Amtrak, and construct a large-scale intercity high-speed rail system. These megaprojects will cost hundreds of billions of dollars, but they won't save energy or significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
Although media reports suggest that many people are taking public transit instead of driving, actual numbers show that recent increases in transit ridership account for only 3 percent of the decline in urban driving. Also, contrary to popular belief, rail transit does not save energy. Many light-rail operations use more energy per passenger mile than the average sport utility vehicle, and almost none uses less than a fuel-efficient car such as a Toyota Prius. People who respond to high fuel prices by taking transit are not saving energy; they are merely imposing their energy costs on someone else.
Rail transportation is also much more heavily subsidized than other forms of travel. Where highway subsidies average less than a penny per passenger mile, and subsidies to flying are even lower, Amtrak costs taxpayers 22 cents per passenger mile and urban transit costs 61 cents per passenger mile.
Even if rail transport did save energy, spending more money on rail will get few people out of their cars. People who want to save energy should plan to buy more fuel-efficient cars and encourage cities to invest in traffic signal coordination, which can save far more energy at a tiny fraction of the cost of building new rail transport lines.
Randal O'Toole is a senior fellow with the Cato Institute and author of The Best-Laid Plans: How Government Planning Harms Your Quality of Life, Your Pocketbook, and Your Future.
stephendare
February 03, 2010, 07:42:38 PMUnfortunately, the Cato Institute also has a reputation for just cold making up psuedo facts and figures, Urban.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 08:01:05 PMRandall and Wendell Cox roll around in the same bed. Both are well known anti rail zealots.
Anyway, he's right. Rail won't save America. However, it will spur economic development along the corridor it serves. Jacksonville and America are living examples of this. Only a fool would debate otherwise. He's also right in saying upgrading and building rail will cost hundreds of billions. However, he left out the alternative (building more roads) which will cost hundreds of trillions and do nothing for restimulating infill development in areas where we've already invested in building the existing infrastructure.
ralpho37
February 03, 2010, 08:11:06 PMCSX's $40 investment in rail is to serve the port. It has nothing to do with light rail, commuter rail, streetcars, or any other type of passenger rail.
Having said that, JTA needs to get it together and realize America is leaving Jacksonville behind. Invest in passenger rail now!
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 08:24:44 PMLocally, the CSX bypass will reroute port traffic north of town instead of through it. This should free up some rail capacity in the Northside, Jax's most transit dependent area and area most in need of economic redevelopment. If we're smart, we'll take advantage of this port related project to jump start passenger rail service in some of the areas where existing rail traffic will relocate from. Combine that with the city owned S-Line ROW and you could easily have a rail corridor running from downtown to Dunn Avenue/9A or even RCM.
urbanlibertarian
February 03, 2010, 08:25:26 PMPro rail folks tend to cite the benefits of rail as if it will be operating at full capacity as designed. The "anti rail zealots" compare the costs, subsidies and pollution of automobile and air travel to rail in terms of X per passenger mile which seems more appropriate to me. Cars are more flexible and convenient. The vehicles are provided, maintained and fueled by the passengers for the most part which minimizes the government subsidies.
However, your points, Lake, about economic development are hard to argue with.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 08:34:54 PMExcept the anti-rail zealots leave out several significant facts. If you develop something that causes low density sprawl to grow, you ought to add the cost of its impact to the total. Who pays for the fire stations, police stations, sewage plants, utility extensions, environmental impacts, etc. that always result from the continued development of new roads in virgin land? Who pays for decline in the older areas abandoned because more public money flows to subsidize the outward growth? This thing isn't as cut and draw or black and white as zealots believe. For every cause, there is an effect, especially when talking about public infrastructure investments. Point blank, when all the costs are added up, roads cost us more than rail. Its not even close.
They both spur development. However, one tends to stimulate automobile oriented sprawl and the other encourages better utilization of land development patterns (because its pedestrian scale), which saves taxpayers a ton of money over the long run.
9a is my backyard
February 03, 2010, 09:42:08 PMEasy. We have to successfully make the economic development argument. We also have to make this a key issue in the upcoming race for mayor.
Is it really going to be easy?
tufsu1
February 03, 2010, 09:49:15 PMwell one of those "powers that be" told me the other day that the light rail discussion in Jax. is overblown....that maybe there would be a need in 20 years...and that we shouldn't put anymore $ into the skyway!
JeffreyS
February 03, 2010, 09:54:11 PM^So I guess you agree the education of the powers that be must continue.
tufsu1
February 03, 2010, 09:54:54 PMThe TPO recently adopted their 2035 Long Range Transportation Plan....the plan includes commuter rail, BRT, and streetcar.
The next step is to get some more detailed feasibility and environmental studies underway for streetcar and commuter rail (already underway for BRT)....even so, it will be at least 5 years before we see any rail here.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 09:58:25 PMtufsu1, four years ago with Bush in Washington, HSR was not on the horizon. Just last week, $8 billion in federal funds was announced to help get a series of HSR projects off the ground. If Washington can change overnight, so can Jacksonville with a mayoral race on the horizon. My advice to you is to just do your job by continuing to hit them over the head with why they are wrong. You'll find that if you don't get discouraged and continue the discussion, ignorance can be ripped to shreads.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 10:05:06 PMEasy. We have to successfully make the economic development argument. We also have to make this a key issue in the upcoming race for mayor.
Is it really going to be easy?
It can be easy or difficult, depending on what type of argument is presented. History has proven that investing in urban connectivity and streetcars spur economic development and jobs, jobs, jobs. Why separate the two?
We have to get out of this downtown centric type of thinking. The discussion should be about a better city as a whole and taking advantage of the power of mass transit to spur sustainable economic development, increase tax rolls and saving taxpayers money in the long run. If we can do these things, not only will downtown improve but so will many of our neighborhoods. Our current pattern of development is unsustainable and way more expensive to maintain than the presented alternative. This is the area where an argument centered around vision must be won.
Education, education, education. Jacksonville is a city that's ten years behind most of its American peers. We must educate not only our politicians, but also our neighbors and everyone else who can actually vote. Nothing happens overnight but you have to start the movement somewhere. Imo, the movement has already been started, we just have to keep pushing.
thelakelander
February 03, 2010, 10:09:01 PMwell one of those "powers that be" told me the other day that the light rail discussion in Jax. is overblown....that maybe there would be a need in 20 years...and that we shouldn't put anymore $ into the skyway!
Btw, if you need someone to flip this argument on the "powers that be", take me to your next meeting. Like the verse in "SpottieOttieDopaliscious", the dialogue will be sweeter than a plate of yams with extra syrup.
tufsu1
February 03, 2010, 10:43:29 PMwell one of those "powers that be" told me the other day that the light rail discussion in Jax. is overblown....that maybe there would be a need in 20 years...and that we shouldn't put anymore $ into the skyway!
Btw, if you need someone to flip this argument on the "powers that be", take me to your next meeting. Like the verse in "SpottieOttieDopaliscious", the dialogue will be sweeter than a plate of yams with extra syrup.
you're starting to sound like some other frequesnt posters
9a is my backyard
February 03, 2010, 11:56:45 PMstephendare
February 04, 2010, 12:07:43 AMTUFSU, really, what is it about you? Does it empower you in some way to try and delegitimize a site that you spend hours of your day posting on?
If no one is paying attention to the rail discussion, why do you bother posting in it?
Or is this the backhand way of admitting that they do in fact read the site, but still being able to disassociate yourself from the content with a potential employer.
Its a little annoying.
well one of those "powers that be" told me the other day that the light rail discussion in Jax. is overblown....that maybe there would be a need in 20 years...and that we shouldn't put anymore $ into the skyway!
JeffreyS
February 04, 2010, 12:21:38 AMWe need new "powers".
Streetcar now.
I know many of you here may not agree but put a Mayor and afew more on the council that will support it and the JTA wil deliver.
thelakelander
February 04, 2010, 12:46:49 AMWe have to find away to sell it. We know the same old thing we've been doing for the last few decades does not work. For those that travel, they also know what does work and what we lack. We'll have to continue to preach about the topic, while also finding and promoting the mayoral candidate that agrees with the issues.
Its funny how no one will question dropping $40 million on a single isolated Southside overpass but mention giving $40 million for a rail project that could connect multiple neighborhoods and all hell breaks loose. Same goes for the struggling skyway. People cry about it losing $4 million/year but there have been no complaints about spending $26 million to paint the Hart Bridge. I think with any strong argument, facts like the things mentioned above, also have to become a part of the discussion. When you can toss numbers around, it really puts things in perspective.
Anyway, similar to the BJP, I think the rail issue may need to be packaged with other visionary ideas and not become a stand alone issue. Sort of like Denver's T-REX project. To get a major LRT line constructed, it had to be packaged with a major highway expansion project.
I'm optimistic because I never thought we would get to where we are today, when we started MJ a few years back. Its been an amazing ride so far. We also have an administration in DC that agrees that we need to upgrade our mass transit options and a world that is pulling us in that particular direction. I believe, either Jacksonville will come around or be pulled along, kicking and screaming.
Not at this time. We'll have to do a better job of keeping people informed when public meetings and workshops come up so more can get involved.
mtraininjax
February 04, 2010, 04:07:27 AMMaybe you should run for city council and get people to care about rail as an issue. Its obvious that the 19 members do not care enough about it to get citizens to care about it. How many more posts about commuter rail are needed for someone on MJ to put up or shut up?
If there was more of a need for CR, I'd be on the bandwagon, but roads are plentiful and traffic is way down from a few years ago in Jax.
JeffreyS
February 04, 2010, 08:31:16 AM^Traffic is not the most important reason to invest in rail. The ecconomic benefits are. The investment it spurs, the more sustainable growth it creates and even if neithers of those occurs just the money you save on building new roads and less ware on existing roads make it worthwile. We need sustainable growth in this state not tree hugger speak we need it's ecconomic advantages.
thelakelander
February 04, 2010, 09:29:33 AMmtrain, if we took you're advice there would have never been a commuter rail or streetcar study, the billion dollar BRT plan would be under construction through the heart of DT and this city would be worse off than it is today. If we took your advice, for all we know, Friendship Fountain could have been in its last days and we would have hotdog carts on the Main Street Bridge. In the Jim Crow era, if we took your advice, people like me would still be drinking out of separate water fountains and riding in the back of the bus. The moral of the story is, if you want change don't quit with your message if people don't listen the first, second or third time. Keep fighting the tide is turning.
thelakelander
February 04, 2010, 09:31:52 AMGood point, JeffreyS. Its really more important to our future from an economic perspective. All said and done, its also a lot cheaper the the crazy revitalization ideas this city keeps coming up and losing its investments in. Stop trying to recreate the wheel and follow the path that continues to produce solid successful results.
tufsu1
February 04, 2010, 09:43:34 AMIf no one is paying attention to the rail discussion, why do you bother posting in it?
Or is this the backhand way of admitting that they do in fact read the site, but still being able to disassociate yourself from the content with a potential employer.
Its a little annoying.
well one of those "powers that be" told me the other day that the light rail discussion in Jax. is overblown....that maybe there would be a need in 20 years...and that we shouldn't put anymore $ into the skyway!
Stephen...I wasn't suggesting this "power that be" is correct (I was actually very saddened)...I was just restating what was said.
Also, please stop bringing up the "employer" thing....it too is getting a little annoying!
finehoe
February 04, 2010, 11:00:45 AMhttp://www.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2010/02/01/the-future-of-housing-demand-4-key-demographic-trends.html
Coolyfett
February 07, 2010, 07:54:56 PMI try to explain this type of information to people I meet, and they never want to listen. People just have a die hard lust for their automobiles. The posters on this site is not just a small group of people in Jax, but it is a small group nation wide. The way people were forced to own automobiles is the way they need to be forced back on the trains. Cars take up a lot of space and use a lot of energy. I don't know man. The car situation is just going to get worse. I actually liked when gas prices were going up, because less people were driving ang less accidents happened. Its just crazy man. Europe gets it, us Americans though.......whole other story. waste waste waste.
Coolyfett
February 07, 2010, 08:10:08 PMbus?? Buses are not the problem, The number of automobiles on roads and expressways are an issue.
Coolyfett
February 07, 2010, 08:29:03 PMWho is leaving Jax behind? New York, Chicago, DC? America is not moving. America is stuck in traffic. Who is expanding their systems in this country??? Jax needs to get rught, but so does other places.
Coolyfett
February 07, 2010, 09:18:13 PMI like saving and keeping MY money, I have full control to choose my mode of transportation. If I can not reach it, I just order it online. 5ome of the norse creatures are funny, but the world is a very big place, it is also not flat.....go figure.
thelakelander
February 07, 2010, 09:26:32 PMWho is leaving Jax behind? First, lets throw out the big boys such as NYC, Chicago and even smaller big players like Atlanta and Miami. These communities are clearly on another tier. With them out of the way, here are a few places I say fits the description:
Orlando
San Antonio
Indianapolis
Charlotte
Austin
Raleigh
Norfolk
Nashville
Oklahoma City
Salt Lake City
Tucson
Albuquerque
All of these places are not much larger, smaller or denser than our community. They all also happen to be investing in similar projects (that promote connectivity) that are proving to be successful at attracting urban development and an educated workforce along with the companies they tend to work for. Basically, the same people and business we say we would like to attract and maintain.
In the meantime, we're walking around with our thumb stuck up our butts still struggling to realize why after pumping hundreds of millions into the urban core, true vibrancy and sustainability is still hard to come by. This stuff isn't rocket science and outside of not having a vision or the balls to implement one, Jax is no different from the rest of them.
thelakelander
February 07, 2010, 09:27:57 PMHowever, you are right. There are some other places like Jax, that need to get their act together. Toledo, Rochester, Buffalo, Tampa, Cincinnati, Dayton, Detroit, Birmingham and Richmond come to mind.
Coolyfett
February 07, 2010, 09:43:56 PMOrlando
San Antonio
Indianapolis
Charlotte
Austin
Raleigh
Norfolk
Nashville
Oklahoma City
Salt Lake City
Tucson
Albuquerque
All of these places are not much larger, smaller or denser than our community. They all also happen to be investing in similar projects (that promote connectivity) that are proving to be successful at attracting urban development and an educated workforce along with the companies they tend to work for. Basically, the same people and business we say we would like to attract and maintain.
In the meantime, we're walking around with our thumb stuck up our butts still struggling to realize why after pumping hundreds of millions into the urban core, true vibrancy and sustainability is still hard to come by. This stuff isn't rocket science and outside of not having a vision or the balls to implement one, Jax is no different from the rest of them.
Those cities all have new systems? If so that is great. I may be guilty of having my world being The World. Although I do like undergroud or elevated rail better than the street car OPTION, but it is just that an option.
Whats with the name calling on this site? Options are are good for everyone. If it is actually a FREE country why do need to own an automobile to go to work, to school, or to a ballgame or concert? That does not sound like freedom to me. That sounds like control.
thelakelander
February 07, 2010, 10:48:49 PMNew, Under Construction, Planned
Orlando
San Antonio
Indianapolis (no system but has embraced connectivity through development, site design patterns)
Charlotte
Austin
Raleigh
Norfolk
Nashville
Oklahoma City
Salt Lake City
Tucson
Albuquerque
What name calling?
Coolyfett
February 07, 2010, 11:20:34 PMI wasnt talking about u with the name calling. Id like to see Jax move in the right direction Lake. but Jax has many many things in the way.
thelakelander
February 07, 2010, 11:23:09 PMNo doubt, but if we don't stand up to the many many things in the way, nothing will ever change.
mtraininjax
February 08, 2010, 12:16:38 AMLake - You are the blind leading the blind. You can fight the good fight behind the counter, but at some point you have to get out in FRONT of the counter and make a difference. Nice to hang out here and listen to the rhetoric, but if you want real change, YOU will need to lead it. No one can fight this fight for YOU.
thelakelander
February 08, 2010, 12:19:08 AMHow do you know I'm not taking a role in leading it? If you knew me and what I have been involved in outside of this forum, you might think otherwise.
JeffreyS
February 08, 2010, 12:23:00 AMMTJ are you running for school board? If not does that mean you are not for change in education.
Ocklawaha
February 08, 2010, 12:46:00 AMLake - You are the blind leading the blind. You can fight the good fight behind the counter, but at some point you have to get out in FRONT of the counter and make a difference. Nice to hang out here and listen to the rhetoric, but if you want real change, YOU will need to lead it. No one can fight this fight for YOU.
Lake, you hit the nail on the head buddy. I laughed my butt off when I read this post, I was thinking the exact same thing. Since we know many of the professionals on these boards, what would you guess we have in the way of ACTIVE or ACTIVIST: either full time, part time or retired Transportation Planners, or decision makers, management etc? Including ourselves, I can think of maybe 20...
We might have been the blind leading the blind in the recent past, but we are just LEADING the whole mass today, and they are starting to come around.
NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER!
OCKLAWAHA
stephendare
February 08, 2010, 12:48:46 AMI think mtrain makes a good point in any case.
While Mtrain doesnt know all the work that this huge group of people on this site does without discussioin on the forums or boards, it doesnt change a basic fact: The city needs leaders. It currently has none.
But I would remind Mtrain, public awareness is the beginning of all roads to a change.
JeffreyS
February 08, 2010, 01:23:50 AMI thought we at MJ.com were planning on vetting the candidates and deciding who we would let win.
stephendare
February 08, 2010, 01:25:03 AMI think thats the plan jeff.
But it will take committed people making sure that the word gets out to all possible voters during the campaign that this is the place to find the information to decide.
JeffreyS
February 08, 2010, 01:26:33 AMAs soon as we take one of the pretenders down we won't even need to advertise.
Coolyfett
February 08, 2010, 03:22:44 AMIf Washington can change overnight, so can Jacksonville with a mayoral race on the horizon. My advice to you is to just do your job by continuing to hit them over the head with why they are wrong. You'll find that if you don't get discouraged and continue the discussion, ignorance can be ripped to shreads.
Coolyfett
February 08, 2010, 03:31:38 AMdlupercio
July 25, 2010, 12:12:29 PMCan i just say i am glad you wrote this. If you need help getting the voice for a plan like this stuck into the brains of the people who run this city i am here 100%
CS Foltz
July 25, 2010, 03:17:41 PMMaybe we are looking in the wrong direction! It goes with out saying that the coming Mayoral race is going to be interesting to say the very least! Rail has shown to be a proven enticement for business and homeowners or apartments or condo's.......the mix is whatever it ends up! But the common thread throughout appears to me, IMHO, a mass transit system that caters to moving people from point A to point B and so on! Bus is not cost effiecient by itself which maybe why large cities have a mix and road! Some even include watercraft or ferry's in the intermodal mix and well it should! Right now...........Jacksonville has nothing but roads and a halfbutted bus system.......oh don't forget the Skyway, half used half breed of automation! That is only a pitifull slice of what it was planned out to be and unless it is extended, we will continue to subsidize something that should be able to stand on its own! The time has come to change the mindset of JTA and City Hall which is acres and acres of Gate supplied concrete and thats it! Time to come up to the 20th Century full time and with room to expand!