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The First Coast Outer Beltway will take a serpentine route through the counties of St. Johns, Clay and Duval. Many believe future drivers will choose to drive miles out of the way and pay tolls in order to bypass traffic congestion on I-295, Blanding, Roosevelt and San Jose Boulevards. Others believe this highway will turn Clay and St. Johns Counties into economic powerhouses.
Why is the Outer Beltway Needed?
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FDOT established three goals to guide the development of potential solutions to existing transportation problems in the project area:
1. Provide additional capacity to improve current and future transportation network deficiencies.
2. Promote and support employment and economic development.
3. Improve emergency evacuation.
1. Provide additional capacity to improve current and future transportation network deficiencies.
2. Promote and support employment and economic development.
3. Improve emergency evacuation.
http://www.sjrbridge.com/1-08-2010 update/SJRC EIS/01_(Purpose & Need).pdf
Is the First Coast Outer Beltway a mistake in the making?
Considering that communities across America are attempting to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and vehicle miles traveled, the First Coast Outer Beltway may be an enormous misallocation of our region's resources. Should it really cost billions of dollars to help alleviate traffic on Blanding Blvd or encourage sprawl across environmentally sensitive land in Clay and St. Johns Counties? Are there better alternatives worth exploring, such as a combination of commuter rail, ITS, and another river crossing for encouraging sustainable economic development?
Nevertheless, the Outer Beltway is not the first "out-of-the-way" toll road to be financed and mainatained by the private sector. The Southern Connector (I-185) in Greenville, SC was built in 2001, with $200 million in privately held bonds. However, after years of drawing less drivers than estimates anticipated, Greenville's "Outer Beltway" has fallen into default and taxpayers may be on the hook. Is North Florida prepared for the Greenville experience?
Jacksonville would be smart to learn from Greenville's Southern Connector (I-185) experience.
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The Upstate's Southern Connector is in default
The idea of creating a bypass under the Greenville area was a good one in theory. Anyone who has driven through the headache that is traffic around Interstates 85 and 385 will agree that area is to be avoided if practicable. Thus, it was proposed a little over a decade ago to extend the short Interstate 185 under the Greenville metro area and connect it with Interstate 385 in the Mauldin area. The Southern Connector was born.
The Southern Connector was to be funded privately, through a nonprofit cooperation, dubbed Connector Association 2000. The nonprofit sold bonds to finance the road. The road was licensed by the South Carolina Department of Transportation. Tolls from the road were to be collected to pay back the bondholders for their investment.
The problem with the Southern Connector is that the traffic and tolls expected never materialized. For whatever reason, the income just did not come in.
That lack of tolls resulted in Event Notice 2010-1 from Connector Association, Inc, issued on January 11th, 2010. In that Event Notice, it was made clear to the public that $200,177,680 in bonds issued by Connector 2000 Associates, Inc, and underwritten by Lehman Brothers, Inc and Mesirow Financial, Inc. were in default. Indeed, the debt service payment due on January 1st, 2010 was not paid.
Thus, Standard and Poor’s downgraded the Southern Connecter bonds to a grade of “D.” That rating is so low, it is not even described in detail on the Standard and Poor’s website. In sum, the investment in the Southern Connector was a failure by those who chose to do so.
What happens next? Who knows? There appear to be efforts in the South Carolina House and in the SC DOT to refinance the bonds that the Southern Connector has defaulted on. That will probably take some sort of payment from the taxpayers of South Carolina to make happen. Others contend that the state could just take over the road. No matter what course is taken, it is going to cost money and it is going to be tricky to get over the failure of the Southern Connector.
Such opens the question about how wise any other “public-prvate” ventures might be for South Carolina. Some in the General Assembly are contending that a new Interstate 73 in the Pee Dee be funded similar to the Southern Connector. They argue tolls from people outside South Carolina will fund the road as those outsides travel to the Grand Strand. Fair enough.
But, the Southern Connector should give the taxpayer pause. For, if such a project encourages private risk takers to invest in it, and if it fails, efforts are made to use public money to try to make those private investors whole, what are the savings to the taxpayer? Further, how many of us, as individuals, who made a bad investment in a company will have the government make us whole? Why should those who invest in a “private-public” road be guaranteed a profit for their risks with taxpayer money?
http://votingundertheinfluence.blogspot.com/2010/02/upstates-southern-connector-is-in.htmlThe idea of creating a bypass under the Greenville area was a good one in theory. Anyone who has driven through the headache that is traffic around Interstates 85 and 385 will agree that area is to be avoided if practicable. Thus, it was proposed a little over a decade ago to extend the short Interstate 185 under the Greenville metro area and connect it with Interstate 385 in the Mauldin area. The Southern Connector was born.
The Southern Connector was to be funded privately, through a nonprofit cooperation, dubbed Connector Association 2000. The nonprofit sold bonds to finance the road. The road was licensed by the South Carolina Department of Transportation. Tolls from the road were to be collected to pay back the bondholders for their investment.
The problem with the Southern Connector is that the traffic and tolls expected never materialized. For whatever reason, the income just did not come in.
That lack of tolls resulted in Event Notice 2010-1 from Connector Association, Inc, issued on January 11th, 2010. In that Event Notice, it was made clear to the public that $200,177,680 in bonds issued by Connector 2000 Associates, Inc, and underwritten by Lehman Brothers, Inc and Mesirow Financial, Inc. were in default. Indeed, the debt service payment due on January 1st, 2010 was not paid.
Thus, Standard and Poor’s downgraded the Southern Connecter bonds to a grade of “D.” That rating is so low, it is not even described in detail on the Standard and Poor’s website. In sum, the investment in the Southern Connector was a failure by those who chose to do so.
What happens next? Who knows? There appear to be efforts in the South Carolina House and in the SC DOT to refinance the bonds that the Southern Connector has defaulted on. That will probably take some sort of payment from the taxpayers of South Carolina to make happen. Others contend that the state could just take over the road. No matter what course is taken, it is going to cost money and it is going to be tricky to get over the failure of the Southern Connector.
Such opens the question about how wise any other “public-prvate” ventures might be for South Carolina. Some in the General Assembly are contending that a new Interstate 73 in the Pee Dee be funded similar to the Southern Connector. They argue tolls from people outside South Carolina will fund the road as those outsides travel to the Grand Strand. Fair enough.
But, the Southern Connector should give the taxpayer pause. For, if such a project encourages private risk takers to invest in it, and if it fails, efforts are made to use public money to try to make those private investors whole, what are the savings to the taxpayer? Further, how many of us, as individuals, who made a bad investment in a company will have the government make us whole? Why should those who invest in a “private-public” road be guaranteed a profit for their risks with taxpayer money?
This image highlights the proposed Outer Beltway's interchange with a future SR 218 Bypass. While much of the financial focus has been on the private sector funding the $1.8 billion toll road, who will be responsible for funding the construction of the roads to divert traffic to the beltway?
First Coast Outer Beltway Public Meeting Schedule
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Florida Department of Transportation officials want citizen feeback on whether the First Coast Outer Beltway should have a bridge over the St. Johns River north or south of Green Cove Springs. They also want feedback on where the road should meet with I-95 in St. Johns County.
The Outer Beltway will be discussed at four meetings in the next two weeks. Information on the project can be found at www.sjrbridge.com. People wishing to comment on the project can speak at the meeting or e-mail Brandi Vittur at brandi.vittur@dot.state.fl.us.
The public meeting times are:
- Monday, Feb. 22 World Golf Village Renaissance Resort 500 S. Legacy Trail St. Augustine Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Thursday, Feb. 25 St. Johns Community College Thrasher Horne Conference Center 283 College Drive Orange Park Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Tuesday, March 2 Clay County Fairgrounds 2496 W. Florida 16 Green Cove Springs Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Thursday, March 4 Cecil Conference Center 12541 Lake Newman St. Jacksonville Doors open: 4:30 p.m. Presentation: 6:30 p.m.
Florida Department of Transportation
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-20/story/northeast_florida_residents_getting_update_on_beltwayThe Outer Beltway will be discussed at four meetings in the next two weeks. Information on the project can be found at www.sjrbridge.com. People wishing to comment on the project can speak at the meeting or e-mail Brandi Vittur at brandi.vittur@dot.state.fl.us.
The public meeting times are:
- Monday, Feb. 22 World Golf Village Renaissance Resort 500 S. Legacy Trail St. Augustine Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Thursday, Feb. 25 St. Johns Community College Thrasher Horne Conference Center 283 College Drive Orange Park Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Tuesday, March 2 Clay County Fairgrounds 2496 W. Florida 16 Green Cove Springs Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Thursday, March 4 Cecil Conference Center 12541 Lake Newman St. Jacksonville Doors open: 4:30 p.m. Presentation: 6:30 p.m.
Florida Department of Transportation
Update by Ennis Davis
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zoo
February 22, 2010, 08:40:18 AMThis project should not go through, period. It flies in the face of smart growth, environmental prudence and more effective solutions to commuter problems. This region needs a strong core, and wise ways to get to and from it. Trying to spread regional-scale economic development out to all corners of Duval, St. Johns, Clay, Nassau and Baker counties will not work, and will dilute the positive outcome that would result from a concentrated effort. This roadway is a mistake for the region and its residents, and the private partner.
Miss Fixit
February 22, 2010, 08:58:20 AMLocal government and private investors should take a close look at the Greenville experience. And ridership studies should be scrutinized very carefully - they are often sort of like a real estate appraisal, in that a clever statistician can make the numbers support whatever position the initiator of the study prefers.
There are alternatives that are environmentally and fiscally much more responsible - light rail, anyone?
thelakelander
February 22, 2010, 09:11:11 AMI would be interested to learn more detail on how this road is supposed to help relieve traffic on I-295, Blanding, Roosevelt and San Jose/SR 13? I can see how a new river crossing midway between the Shands and Buckman would be beneficial, but the current concept has Greenville's Southern Connector written all over it.
GideonGlib
February 22, 2010, 10:46:40 AMThis project makes very little practical sense. I grew up, and my parents still live in Lake Asbury, a small community between Green Cove Springs and Middleburg, and the community can be reached via the first part of this project that is completed (between I-10 and Blanding). It still does not reduce the commute time from Downtown Jacksonville significantly during rush hours over using Blanding or Roosevelt because of the extra miles that you have to go to use the route, and during off hours using those routes take far less time. As far as getting out to I-95 south there is already a "back way" over the Shands using county and state roads that have almost no traffic.
The proposed project of using the existing rail lines for commuter trains with stops in Orange Park and Green Cove Springs makes 100 times more sense, and might actually be a better commuter option because it could reduce travel time during peak hours, this won't reduce travel times, it will just be a conduit for more sprawl.
And that is coming from someone who is from one of the communities this project is supposed to help.
jandar
February 22, 2010, 11:34:25 AMAs it is currently designed, no.
Move the bridge to Hibernia/Switzerland crossing, yes.
Will it alleviate traffic from Middleburg/OP/Fleming Island/Lake Asbury to downtown? No
Will it alleviate traffic from Middleburg/OP/Fleming Island/Lake Asbury to the southside of Jax? Yes
Will it free up at least some buckman/mandarin traffic? Yes
reednavy
February 22, 2010, 11:37:22 AMThe main problem in moving the crossing north is that most of the shoreline north of GCS is developed with homes. Good luck getting people to move or using eminent domain.
Oh and on the main subject of building this thing, not no, but hell no.
CityLife
February 22, 2010, 11:37:27 AMAny idea how much of the financing will come from state, local, and federal dollars?
hightowerlover
February 22, 2010, 11:49:23 AMtoll roads just have such a stigma against them. even if they only wanted .50 cents its just the whole having to always have 2 quarters on you to get to the other side. the only way a toll road/bridge would work is if it's somehow more convenient to take and this just looks to out of the way for anyone to use.
but then again "bridges to nowhere" have a tendency to turn "nowhere" into the up and coming place to be, because the bridge is there.
Dapperdan
February 22, 2010, 11:52:01 AMDo you see how much the beltway winds? A few trucks may take it until they ralize how out of the way it takes them. I don't know anyone who would take this route. You would be better off driving in on 10 and hitting 2-95 south, even with its traffic. I have never thought any of this made sense. And the whole Brannon Field- Chaffee fiiasco will realy make some people livid when they realize part of the road that is already built will be converted to a toll road. I encourage everyone to go to these meetings and tell them you don't want this dumb idea.
Overstreet
February 22, 2010, 12:08:33 PMI prefer the green way in Orlando to the I-4 slog through town. I suspect others will have similar feelings about this one.
The Green Cove and points north traffic now coming across the SHands bridge to Hwy 210 to I -95 tells me that a new bridge and route to I-95 from the Shands is needed.
If I lived in Orangedale, or one of the developments at hwy 210 I'd be using it to get to I-10.
stjr
February 22, 2010, 12:32:18 PMShort answer: Hell NO!
Won't fix traffic or anything else, just enrich a few special interests. It will create a host of new issues for Clay and St. Johns regarding environment, infrastructure, urban sprawl, expenses, and destruction of quality of life and character. The road itself is nothing but compromises by committees forming a useless "long and winding road".
This is a project looking for an excuse to be done. The proof is in the fact that we still have six options that are all over the place both location-wise and exit-wise. No one has a clue as to who this road is supposed to serve.
We should be having public hearings by the FBI on why certain politicos are pushing it so hard because there is no logical reason for its existence. Let's start with studying campaign contributions from whom and to whom.
tufsu1
February 22, 2010, 12:46:17 PMas has been discussed, very very little...basically just the money for the planning and environmental studies.
of course, there is an argument that portions of the road have already been built, just not as an expressway...Cecil Commerce Pkwy and the BFC corridor...both done w/ public $
Lunican
February 22, 2010, 12:48:30 PMWho pays for the police?
tufsu1
February 22, 2010, 12:50:13 PMThe stigma barely exists in Tampa, Orlando, and Miami now....thanks to this modern thing called a transponder (like SunPass).
and now there's even open road tolling where you don't even have to slow down....you can check it out on roads like the I-95 express lanes in Miami and the reversible lanes on the Crosstown Expwy in Tampa.
tufsu1
February 22, 2010, 12:50:52 PMthat is an operational cost....I thought all we were talking about here is the $1.8 Billion capital cost.
here's a question though (and this doesn't reflect my own personal viewpoint)....how do you think most people in north Florida would feel if they were told their gas tax dollars were being used to finance transit projects instead of road construction/maintenance?
stephendare
February 22, 2010, 12:54:40 PMthat is an operational cost....I thought all we were talking about here is the $1.8 Billion capital cost
ah. the whopper without the burger isnt all that fattening if you think about it.
thelakelander
February 22, 2010, 01:00:27 PMthat is an operational cost....I thought all we were talking about here is the $1.8 Billion capital cost.
here's a question though (and this doesn't reflect my own personal viewpoint)....how do you think most people in north Florida would feel if they were told their gas tax dollars were being used to finance transit projects instead of road construction/maintenance?
If the actual numbers were shown for each, with transit being used as an alternative option, I think you would be suprised.
Debbie Thompson
February 22, 2010, 01:35:07 PMUmmm.....wasn't this what I-295 was supposed to be - a bypass around Jacksonville traffic on I-95? As soon as you permit building a road with less traffic, developers snap up the land around it and build a gazillion houses and strip malls. Presto chango, no more low traffic beltway.
TheProfessor
February 22, 2010, 01:37:47 PMmore sprawl??? Unless the state is totally paying for this, I don't think it should be built. It will only generate more sprawl.
thelakelander
February 22, 2010, 02:10:56 PMProject backers hope a private entity will pay for the construction of the toll road. Most likely, we'll (John Q. Taxpayer) will be on the hook to fund everything else (ex. connector roads, additional police/fire/schools needed to accommodate future sprawl growth, etc.).
tufsu1
February 22, 2010, 02:24:26 PMLake...remember that new residents/businesses pay for at least a portion of the costs the growth brings...one of Florida's biggest problems is that we've been relying on new growth to pay for today's needs for a long time...it is basically a statewide ponzi scheme.
hightowerlover
February 22, 2010, 02:27:22 PMall of this can be overcome with overhead gondolas!
thelakelander
February 22, 2010, 02:29:41 PMWe can grow without more expressways and new highways feeding them (primarily to open virgin land for low density sprawl). If we develop smartly, the cost of future growth will be less of a burden on existing and new residents. The plan, as currently conceived, is about as far away from smart as we can be.
finehoe
February 22, 2010, 03:01:29 PMThe question to ask of this and similar projects: cui bono. To whose benefit?
reednavy
February 22, 2010, 03:02:41 PMJaxNative68
February 22, 2010, 06:08:03 PM^^Whatever happened to the gondolas they wanted to build over the river from King Street Station parking garage to Metro Park?
wsansewjs
February 22, 2010, 06:17:14 PMHere I come, ladies and gentlemen! This is going to be my first major post and rolling in full swing by joining the causes in supporting smart solutions for Jacksonville and its greater area of their own ongoing and annoying issues. I have been lurking this website for over a year and half, and I felt like I should make my move...
The answer: Another road project?! Are you -bleepin- kidding me?! I have lived in Orange Park for almost 20 years and watched its intense growth. Orange Park actually has gotten worse and lost its own charm as a small town. I personally think Orange Park is dead. It is now full of business rubbish since it resembles as a "Las-Vegas of business." The Beltway proposal is not going to help the overall situation at all in congestion. It is hard to determine if it will have an impact on an area or few.
If you want to look at this way, the problem is really simple. There are too many of us with so many cars that flood the entire area. The current roads cannot handle the volume of the cars at its peak hours. Obviously, I may be biased because I do not have a car due to my ongoing blindness which is why it motivates me so much to help this city and its surroundings to have the best transportation system as possible. I currently do live in Jacksonville in the Southside section which is smack right in middle of everything and still lags in performance for public transportation.
Based on every articles I have read here and discussed on other websites/media outlet, they all has been ringing the same bell for the major solution... the significant and amazing Light Rail Train system. We got to do something about this, obviously.
Your new fellow member,
Josh Simpson
CS Foltz
February 22, 2010, 06:26:31 PMBig Guy.............join the crowd! LRT is something that should have been initiated long before now and is still just a dream to most! More concrete is not the answer and the powers that be just don't get it! Maybe they can be worn down........but more and more are seeing the light.......by the way welcome!
fsu813
February 22, 2010, 06:42:40 PM"Florida Department of Transportation officials want citizen feeback on whether the First Coast Outer Beltway should have a bridge over the St. Johns River north or south of Green Cove Springs. They also want feedback on where the road should meet with I-95 in St. Johns County.
The Outer Beltway will be discussed at four meetings in the next two weeks. Information on the project can be found at www.sjrbridge.com. People wishing to comment on the project can speak at the meeting or e-mail Brandi Vittur at brandi.vittur@dot.state.fl.us.
The public meeting times are:
- Monday, Feb. 22 World Golf Village Renaissance Resort 500 S. Legacy Trail St. Augustine Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Thursday, Feb. 25 St. Johns Community College Thrasher Horne Conference Center 283 College Drive Orange Park Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Tuesday, March 2 Clay County Fairgrounds 2496 W. Florida 16 Green Cove Springs Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Thursday, March 4 Cecil Conference Center 12541 Lake Newman St. Jacksonville Doors open: 4:30 p.m. Presentation: 6:30 p.m.
Florida Department of Transportation"
fightingosprey07
February 22, 2010, 06:44:55 PMThis project should absolutely not be built! The only real reason that they give for wanting it built is to reduce congestion on Blanding, but this road won't do that. If the commuters that take blanding were trying to get to Green Cove Springs or I-10, they wouldn't be on blanding in the first place. There are already roads that go to these locations, and they aren't all that congested.
The only thing this project would accomplish would be more urban sprawl. But unfortunately, that seems to be our current administration's goal.
CS Foltz
February 22, 2010, 06:49:10 PMI agree! Just more inroads for developers that the taxpayers get to pay for...........and they wonder why we have urban sprawl! Not good for anyone other than developers plain and simple! Infact, I think we need to declare a moratorium on more roads, interchanges and the like till we know beyond doubt we need to do it!
heights unknown
February 22, 2010, 06:50:49 PMNot needed. Would create a lot of jobs, but all in all it's not really needed.
"HU"
hightowerlover
February 22, 2010, 07:14:39 PMreednavy
February 22, 2010, 07:46:29 PMBleh!
jandar
February 22, 2010, 08:10:42 PMMost people state that Blanding/US17 traffic could be lessened by Light Rail.
1. Where would you place the stations?
2. Where do you run the trains from/to?
3. How do you propose to have people get to JTB/Gate Parkway/Southpoint every day and back?
4. What is the average commute time from Middleburg to JTB/Southpoint daily during rush hour and back?
If the beltway is moved slightly north, and crosses at Hibernia/Switzerland:
5. Where would the houses be built up at?
6. Would you bemoan another bridge, or would you still widen/redo the shands even if the beltway does not exist?
If Clay and St Johns are bedroom communities:
7. How would you entice the workforce to move back to JAX and stop commuting?
8. Could/Would Duval Schools compete (as a whole) to Clay or St Johns Counties?
If you could build a higher/denser work area:
9. Which side of town would you build it on and why?
10. Should any side of town be favored for growth over another?
brainstormer
February 22, 2010, 09:00:36 PMNo, No, No! I hate everything about this proposed beltway and agree with all previous statements against building it.
reednavy
February 22, 2010, 10:35:45 PMIt is fairly simple to me. Do we need better and more ways to get into Jax from the burbs', yes. Do we need better connectivity, oh hell yes. Do we need another one or two river crossings, yes. Mass transit (rail and ferries), we needed that yesterday.
The suburbs need better ways to get into the principal city of the metro area, but this isn't the way to do it. There much cheaper and better methods than this money pit.
thelakelander
February 22, 2010, 10:54:15 PMHere's my take.
1. Where would you place the stations?
Without diving too much into this, I'll go with what JTA has drawn up.
See above. Those routes would be my rail transit spines. I would take the buses currently serving these routes and redeploy them to connect and serve areas not along the transit spines. In the end, you would have an integrated transit system.
Four options.
1. Drive on the existing streets and deal with whatever future traffic congestion brings your way.
2. Take CSX A line to downtown and transfer to FEC line.
3. Take CSX A line to I-295, connect to express bus across Buckman to Avenues, transfer to FEC line.
4. I'd scrap the Outer Beltway, but advocate for a new river crossing between the Buckman and Shands. As a part of it's construction, I'd include lanes for transit service so you could have an express bus that connects the rail lines in Clay and St. Johns Counties.
Who would want to live in Middleburg and work near JTB? Doesn't sound time or cost efficient. Nevertheless, according to JTA's commuter rail feasibility study it would take 41 minutes to go from Doctors Inlet to JTB via commuter rail (CSX A into DT and transferring to FEC line).
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-commuter-rail-study-update-costs-and-ridership
5. Where would the houses be built up at?
I'd be in favor of not encouraging additional unsustainable sprawl development so I'd shoot for a new bridge tying CR 210 with US 17 at Fleming Island. It would be controversial, but I'd prefer taking out a few houses along the waterfront instead of having a $1.8 billion toll roll carve up the countryside.
I'd add another bridge and redo the Shands when the time came. If you really want to impact traffic a completely separate bridge to divert trips off existing roads is your best answer, imo.
They are, no ifs about it.
I could care less if Clay and St. Johns residents moved to Jax or not. In Jax, I'd focus on creating an urban core that can't be replicated in the suburbs to give First Coast residents a true choice in living and lifestyle options. In Clay and St. Johns, I'd favor sustainable development over continued sprawl.
I really see no difference between the school systems other than the fact that Duval has older economically depressed areas, which drag down the overall image. Give Clay and St. Johns time and as they age and urbanize, they'll go through the same growing pains.
9. Which side of town would you build it on and why?
Primarily along transit lines and in area where a significant amount of public infrastructure already exists. Why? Because it would be cheaper for taxpayers (road cost us more than anything else), preserve undeveloped land, parks, cut down on greenhouse gas emissions and vehicle miles traveled.
Yes. Growth should be steered towards areas that have already been developed. Imo, there are sections of Blanding that need just as much redevelopment as Jacksonville's urban core. I see no need to sprawl out over the countryside when we have tons of areas in the region that can accommodate future growth needs.
thelakelander
February 22, 2010, 11:00:24 PMI wonder would a ferry work if it connected CR 210 to Fleming Island?
Charles Hunter
February 22, 2010, 11:03:48 PMWell the Mayport ferry loses money.
Did anybody go to the Hearing tonight? Ock, isn't that in your neck of the woods (or fairways)?
Lunican
February 22, 2010, 11:05:22 PMDoes anyone know how many years of ferry operation could be funded by the cost of a new bridge? It might be interesting to figure that out.
thelakelander
February 22, 2010, 11:08:44 PMSo does the Buckman, Fuller Warren, Acosta, Main, Hart, Matthews and Dames Point Bridges. Despite the cooked numbers, the Outer Beltway, like the Southern Connector, will too. However, I wonder what the loss rate will be compared to actual bridge construction and maintenance.
Charles Hunter
February 22, 2010, 11:21:31 PMPoint.
reednavy
February 22, 2010, 11:26:04 PMAs much as we want another crossing between the Buckman and Shands Bridges, it will be nearly impossible. You have nearly completely developed shoreline on the Clay side that can be, and much of the St. Johns side is developed and/or about to be. Unless eminent domain is used, it ain't gunna happen. We're talking about multi-million dollar riverfront estates on the St. Johns side and the Clay side has sizeable homes, but a much larger number, including Fleming Island.
FDOT seriosuly needs to take a step back and realize the only necessity right now is a new, higher, and wider Shands Bridge crossing.
Between this and the Rivertown development, the state might as well take back the Scenic Route designations on S.R. 13 between Switzerland and Picolata.
Ocklawaha
February 23, 2010, 02:55:36 AMDid anybody go to the Hearing tonight? Ock, isn't that in your neck of the woods (or fairways)?
Yes, it is in my neighborhood (sort of but WGV goes from Philips Highway to the St. Johns River, the Community "town center" is at WGPWY and I-95, and I'm South of Orangedale or Cedar Creek off SR-13) but No, I opted for MetroJacksonville's board meeting tonight, I will try and catch the March 2 date at the Clay County Fairgrounds, which is just over the river from me.
Don't assume boys and girls, the Hibernia area is pretty sparse, and using current road alignments one could get all the way to the waterfront fairly easily. The SR 210 side (which is really Greenbriar Road) is wide open on the St. Johns end and for whatever it's worth there is a HUGE airport hidden across from the schools on Greenbriar, which in the right hands could conceivably be rebuilt into something. My best guess short of it's complete destruction would be in developing a recreational, lake, equestrian trails, golf? and use the (abandoned) Switzerland Naval Air Station as a fly-in upper income estate community.
From a purely transportation guy prospective, I can see almost no value in this beltway. On the Westside we would get more bang for the asphalt buck if we laid a new slab between JAX and STARKE, as a 4 lane, limited access route from using either:
1. I-10 West to Lenox Avenue West, to Old Middleburg Road, Southwest to Taylor Road, and hence SOUTHWEST on new right of way, over Branon Field - Chaffee, over Cecil Commerce Parkway, through Jennings State Forest, over Live Oak Lane, to power line right of way, just east of Clay Hill Elementary School and SR 218, over SR-218 and follow power right of way to US-301 just north of Lawtey. Where existing roads are effected they would be widened and rebuilt into a parkway with transit/LRT right of way built in.
2. From I-295 and Morris Avenue, a new expressway running DUE WEST from I-295 along power line right of way (parallel to, and just south of Morris) to Old Middleburg Road just below Morris, and hence Southwest per above.
3. A combination of both of the above with more emphsis on Parkway rather then Expressway interchanges.
Otherwise the only parts of this whole Outer Beltway/I-795 (complimentary roadways) scheme that makes any sense at all is the upper St. Johns County , I-95 - 9-B - I-295, and perhaps as far as SR 210. While it could be argued that there is enough traffic now or in the near future for these roads I still wouldn't support building the beltway to achieve it.
The other "sense" is the replacement of the Shand's bridge... ("WELL DAMN! STEPHEN, JUST DAMN!", The ancient one speaks, this will be the second Shand's replacement in my lifetime!! ...Don't worry girls, Verile, vigorous, potent, and all the time you need! Age DOES have it's benefits!) But even that is not worth wrecking the fantastic infrastructure investment that the Navy made in building such a fantastic PORT/AIRPORT for Green Cove Springs. NO RESIDENT OF CLAY-DUVAL-ST. JOHNS -NASSAU-BAKER-FLAGLER-PUTNAM, SHOULD EVEN CONSIDER ALLOWING THEM TO TRASH THIS FACILITY BY RUNNING ROADS ACROSS THE END OF IT'S RUNWAYS!
To the "Gondola Clowns." Uh? Hello? This IS viable mass transit, at a low cost, and it works. I have been a party to building 2 lines as MASS TRANSIT. Further, they are NOT GONDOLA'S, they are properly called "ROPE CABLE TRAMS" or "ROPE CABLE CARS" or "ROPEWAY'S". While it IS FUNNY to think of them running out in the belt way boonies, as an alternate way over the river, in an urban setting, they are wonderful. They work well as a self contained system, with feeder connections, for example Edward Waters College-Florida College Downtown or toss in JU and UNF... Another thought, SHAND'S - ST. VINCENT'S - BAPTIST Hospitals. LOL! I'd love it man, I just can't see much demand from Momma and Poppa Gus's COWS!
OCKLAWAHA
CS Foltz
February 23, 2010, 06:22:51 AMPlain and simple NOOOOOO!
finehoe
February 23, 2010, 08:40:00 AMThat seems to be the consensus, and is pretty obvious to anyone looking at the project objectively. That's why I say, who will benefit from this? The answer to that will give you the answer to who is pushing it and why.
tufsu1
February 23, 2010, 09:07:05 AMpart of me thinks that a motivating factor behind the Outer beltway is that FDOT won't have to find the money for the new bridge....best guess is a new bridge there would cost at least $200 million and the folks in Clay seem dead opposed to having it tolled to recoup those costs (as ell as operations/maintenance).
even the beltway has a potential out clause on tolls....if getting on/off at the interchanges closest to the bridge and you have a transponder, you won't have to pay a toll.
of course, this concession by FDOT may be the downfall of the whole project....because the river crossing is the only place where there is virtually no other option, thereby creating a solid revenue stream for the private constructor/operator.
jandar
February 23, 2010, 09:32:15 AMWell since Lake is the only one to give their answers, I'll add mine.
1. Same corridor map Lake posted makes the most sense.
2. Same routes Lake posted, but add ROW on a new bridge for another rail spur from GCS or Fleming Island to Race Track or Palencia. This allows future growth of commuter rail there.
3. I like the idea of commuter bus spur lines to feed the commuter rail. This could be a short term until a line is built across the St Johns following the new bridge.
4. I do this every morning, leaving my house near 220/blanding @ 6:20AM and am at work by 7AM near SJTC. During the heavier rush time, its 1 hour tops, a little over an hour if I am forced to drive SR16 due to a major wreck on 295 corridor.
5. If the bridge were moved north, most of the land it would pass through is already slated/has development. So not much more growth adjacent to the road. Feeder roads could still grow, and are regardless of a new bridge.
6. Add a new bridge, and fix the Shands. Its needed.
7. Why entice them with new work locations in Jax. Why not focus on Cecil area for business and SR16 area in St Johns County. Look at I-4, yes you have Orlando core, but there are work areas in pockets for miles and miles. You don't have a major work area like we do here in Jax on the southside. We need to stop thinking 1 central location and create smart growth in multiple locations.
8. To answer Lake's answer, right now Clay and St Johns are handling the depressed areas better than DCSB is. WE Cherry in GCS is almost all free/reduced lunch and is still an C school. S Bryan Jennings is a title 1 school (more than 50% free/reduced lunch) and is still an A school. Duval has come far, but really needs to clean house in some schools.
9. Mimicing Lake's answer. Building along commuter routes and existing areas. Northside/westside Industrial parks need better transport to/from and should not be excluded from commuter travel.
10. No. There should be growth in many areas. Southside is a business area. Same with downtown. There exists a potential to grow the Northside and Westside industrial/business parks smartly, attracting more businesses there. Build the jobs where the people are, don't build in one area and expect everyone to suddenly move and goto work there. People will commute in those cases.
stephendare
February 23, 2010, 09:43:06 AMJandar.
I think that the source of the disagreement is your viewpoint on #10.
When you use a word like 'should', it means that all of us 'should' raise the 10s of billions of dollars necessary to create the infrastructure that would make a single such development possible----and that 'should' doesnt just extend to a single development area that would require building infrastructure, you include as many as people would like to develop.
What is the basis of your idea that we 'should' have growth in many areas?
This costs trillions of dollars.
What reasons would you say are compelling enough to tax the shit out of an entire country to support this kind of development?
Lunican
February 23, 2010, 09:55:19 AMMoral of the story: Don't put three miles of water between your house and your job if you don't have a boat.
zoo
February 23, 2010, 10:31:13 AMThis is the suburbanites', and Jacksonville's, fallacy. "I moved out to the stix for greenspace and good schools, so now the jobs and growth should be built out by me." This flawed thinking, cheap land prices, developers, and lending is what has caused Jacksonville's sprawl problems to begin with.
I participated in ULI's Reality Check First Coast planning-for-2060 exercise last year. In the exercise tables of 10 or so folks were asked to plan for the location of projected residential and commercial growth (represented by yellow and red bricks, respectively), on a map of NEFL showing existing residential and commercial density (also yellow and red, respectively).
As the exercise began, many of the participants' natural instincts when placing the red (commercial bricks) were to put them where all of the residential (yellow) without much red (commercial) was shown on the map. This is consistent with jandar's suggestions.
I was glad that a couple of urban planning people at the table explained to the other participants that approach only makes sense if one is happy with Jax's current sprawl pattern. After some discussion of this, the table pursued a more smart-growth pattern of putting residential (yellow) bricks where there was already significant red (commercial) density on the map, and to put MORE commercial (red) bricks where there was already red on the map (which, for the most part, happened to be in Downtown and along existing major arteries -- JTB, Beach Blvd, Atlantic Blvd, Blanding, etc.)
The complete results of the Reality Check First Coast exercise can be viewed at http://www.realitycheckfirstcoast.com/images/index_67_3692336283.pdf, and here's a quick summary of findings:
• Multiple compact growth areas
• Mixed-use development
• A more balanced distribution of population and jobs in each County
• Development of multi-modal infrastructure
• New roadways that increase the flow east to west, including an outer beltway
• Preservation, conservation, and connectivity of key natural systems
So looking at the results of the exercise, smart growth wins some, loses some. It is clear there were more than a few tables full of suburbanites who wanted the jobs to come to where they had chosen to live. Net, net? Jacksonville will likely suffer from the suburbanites' fallacy, and end up footing the bill for this ridiculous Outer Beltway idea, for many decades to come.
fieldafm
February 23, 2010, 10:37:10 AMMy mom lives in Hibernia, gf's parents live literally on the other side of the river in Switzerland(you can see the other's house from the backyard using a telescope). I agree, the only thing that needs to be seriously considered is making the Shands bridge wider and taller. Anything beyond that is a complete waste.
We have a beltway now, its called 295/9a and this works great. Its almost a carbon copy of the beltway in Atlanta, which also works great.
I really dont understad this obsession with more highways in this already massive area.
jandar
February 23, 2010, 11:17:26 AM• Multiple compact growth areas
• Mixed-use development
• A more balanced distribution of population and jobs in each County
• Development of multi-modal infrastructure
• New roadways that increase the flow east to west, including an outer beltway
• Preservation, conservation, and connectivity of key natural systems
I was going to type a huge response, but this post and the RealityCheck link allows me to clarify some things and try to stimulate some minds (stop being closed to thoughts, thats what this board is about)
Look at the projected growth charts, listed on page 11. Notice the explosion on the westside/clay/northside areas. Would we be able to build out smart growth then, or start now?
Look at the 2 charts on page 17. The corridor growth pattern is actually close to what I am suggesting. Yet you see the growth of commercial blocks deep into Clay County along US17 and Blanding. And right where the outer beltway would be built.
The multiple growth chart is also heavy around US17 and Blanding and close to the outer beltway.
The dispersed is the worst use and shows as much.
Even the Urban compact pattern shows heavy buildup in Clay south of I295 and along the outer beltway corridor.
For density, the Urban compact is the winner in this study. Yet this has a huge area of commercial development in Clay County. What gives?
Hmm, read on page 31.
Even the Mobility Expert Panel states:
Yet we conclude with comments such as:
Seems to me that the think here is that if you don't agree with a CBD idea, it is a fallacy and that commuters are bad.
stephendare
February 23, 2010, 11:34:31 AMjandar.
Sprawl is bad.
And I would sincerely like to hear your reasoning in reference to my post and question above.
thelakelander
February 23, 2010, 11:40:32 AMConcerning the Outer Beltway, wasn't it assumed that the highway would be there from the start of the process? It was in the TPO's 2035 LRTP. If so, then sprawl growth would be shown in those areas from the start. However, if there was no Outer Beltway, future growth would have to be accommodated into other ways, such as along transit corridors instead. There is no doubt that we are going to continue growing. However, we do have a choice in whether that growth is sustainable or not. Going the path of the Outer Beltway only gives us more of what we keep saying we're trying to change and avoid. Its counterproductive and a massive waste of financial resources to say the least.
Clem1029
February 23, 2010, 11:58:57 AMAlong the lines of what jandar is getting at...am I understanding that the basic position here is that, considering the existing development in northern Clay, the only thing that should be done to support it is a commuter rail line? That discussions of other infrastructure improvements (particularly that is not the OB) are basically a non-starter?
Overstreet
February 23, 2010, 12:04:59 PMOuter Beltway............Isn't that I-295/9A? Isn't Edgewood Ave is the origninal "inner" belt way?
thelakelander
February 23, 2010, 12:06:15 PMClem1029, That's not my position. Although I do believe commuter rail should be included in any option, there is no one stop solution out there. So I'm a backer of evaluating of a mix of solutions that support sustainable growth. That could be anything from a mix of commuter rail, changing land use/zoning and ITS to the promotion of small road "connectivity" projects in certain areas that divert existing travel characteristics by improving the grid with parallel facilities.
thelakelander
February 23, 2010, 12:07:06 PMPretty much. This will essentially be our third beltway. So if we want to see the end result, we can easily take a look at the development patterns around the first two.
jandar
February 23, 2010, 12:53:09 PMSprawl is bad.
And I would sincerely like to hear your reasoning in reference to my post and question above.
Sprawl is bad, but it happens whether we like it our not. Smart growth takes into account sprawl and works with it to alleviate traffic and other growth issues. It doesn't ignore it or force it to go away.
What reasons would you say are compelling enough to tax the shit out of an entire country to support this kind of development?
The thinking that needs to be considered:
Sprawl will happen. Not everyone wants to live in an urban environment.
The key is to control sprawl, not try to eliminate it. Why not try to do what other metropolitan areas do and create urban zones. San Francisco Bay area is a great example. You have urban areas designated in 5 counties there.
You have to address the needs of single family homes/lots and housing costs.
thelakelander
February 23, 2010, 01:30:39 PMThis is wishful dreaming and manipulation more than anything else. Suckers are hard to find in economic conditions like this. If real money could be made off this thing, the private sector would be knocking the doors down to get a piece of it. In reality, this is a huge $1.8 billion risk, which is why its been slow moving forward.
zoo
February 23, 2010, 02:06:59 PMExactly. Maybe it can't be eliminated, but it shouldn't be encouraged or facilitated with this obscene Outer Beltway idea. No Outer Beltway, less sprawl in Clay County -- sounds like control to me.
copperfiend
February 23, 2010, 02:19:28 PMPretty much. This will essentially be our third beltway. So if we want to see the end result, we can easily take a look at the development patterns around the first two.
Third rate motels? fast food joints?
thelakelander
February 23, 2010, 06:57:21 PMBingo! Don't expect much Class A office space to develop around a toll road. You think parking rates downtown are a problem? Imagine having to drop $10 - $20 dollars a day to get to the office (the cost of gas and wear and tear on your vehicle excluded). Also don't expect much industry either. Industry springs around rail corridors, not out of the way toll roads.
north miami
March 01, 2010, 06:04:22 PMThe "beltway" is not the brainchild of appropriate, modern day 'growth management' but rather booster ideal promoted since the 60's and 70's.Clay county Chamber of Commerce,key landowner drivers such as Reinhold/Jack Myers.Erroneous promotions as "alleviation" and 'alternative' to Blanding Blvd,which has been compromised by the same booster outlook.And they got away with it.
north miami
March 03, 2010, 09:50:06 AMFor related but typically ignored aspect see Florida Times Union jacksonville.com Ron Littlepage Feb. 26 piece "Long term vision...." and North Miami comment.
stephendare
March 05, 2010, 10:51:31 AMThe answer: Another road project?! Are you -bleepin- kidding me?! I have lived in Orange Park for almost 20 years and watched its intense growth. Orange Park actually has gotten worse and lost its own charm as a small town. I personally think Orange Park is dead. It is now full of business rubbish since it resembles as a "Las-Vegas of business." The Beltway proposal is not going to help the overall situation at all in congestion. It is hard to determine if it will have an impact on an area or few.
If you want to look at this way, the problem is really simple. There are too many of us with so many cars that flood the entire area. The current roads cannot handle the volume of the cars at its peak hours. Obviously, I may be biased because I do not have a car due to my ongoing blindness which is why it motivates me so much to help this city and its surroundings to have the best transportation system as possible. I currently do live in Jacksonville in the Southside section which is smack right in middle of everything and still lags in performance for public transportation.
Based on every articles I have read here and discussed on other websites/media outlet, they all has been ringing the same bell for the major solution... the significant and amazing Light Rail Train system. We got to do something about this, obviously.
Your new fellow member,
Josh Simpson
great post and welcome to the site Josh!
north miami
April 07, 2010, 04:43:32 PMThe answer: Another road project?! Are you -bleepin- kidding me?! I have lived in Orange Park for almost 20 years and watched its intense growth. Orange Park actually has gotten worse and lost its own charm as a small town. I personally think Orange Park is dead. It is now full of business rubbish since it resembles as a "Las-Vegas of business." The Beltway proposal is not going to help the overall situation at all in congestion. It is hard to determine if it will have an impact on an area or few.
north miami
April 07, 2010, 04:45:51 PMPretty much. This will essentially be our third beltway. So if we want to see the end result, we can easily take a look at the development patterns around the first two.
.....and Atlanta.
stjr
April 07, 2010, 08:39:41 PMThis is a post of mine from a 9B thread:
(1) these highways mostly benefit and promote residents moving to St. Johns and Clay Counties
(2) cost Duval taxpayers in additional infrastructure and traffic burdens within Duval
(3) fail to deliver significant offsetting revenues to Duval to pay for such burdens as most of these road users live and shop in the adjacent counties
(4) negatively impact business and residents in Duval County by siphoning off higher income residents and new businesses to the adjacent counties
(5) divert state monies from Duval mass transit projects, road improvements, and other state funded programs such as education.
There is absolutely no SANE and RATIONAL reason for Duval County politicos, if they truly represent Duval residents, to support these projects and yet they are all lined up to do so. Could it be due to campaign contributions? Back room deals?
ChriswUfGator
April 08, 2010, 03:37:15 PMProbably me, when I forget to plug in my radar detector. lol
north miami
April 08, 2010, 03:44:41 PM(1) these highways mostly benefit and promote residents moving to St. Johns and Clay Counties
(2) cost Duval taxpayers in additional infrastructure and traffic burdens within Duval
(3) fail to deliver significant offsetting revenues to Duval to pay for such burdens as most of these road users live and shop in the adjacent counties
(4) negatively impact business and residents in Duval County by siphoning off higher income residents and new businesses to the adjacent counties
(5) divert state monies from Duval mass transit projects, road improvements, and other state funded programs such as education.
There is absolutely no SANE and RATIONAL reason for Duval County politicos, if they truly represent Duval residents, to support these projects and yet they are all lined up to do so. Could it be due to campaign contributions? Back room deals?
Entrenched within the 'Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce' are individuals such as Clay County Reinhold Corp./Jack Myers
The Northeast Florida Regional Planning Council mirrors regional wild eyed development aspirations.
We will "realize" the implications at precisely the time at which it is too late-"Inevitable" is the term commonly employed to create a community/political climate where alarmism alternates with complacency and sense of futility.
spuwho
May 07, 2010, 10:29:45 PMIt's easy to say there are no reasons to build I-795 today, low population density, big river to cross, urban population drainage. However, it will not always be like that. To assume what we desire today is the way it will always be is very short sighted. NE Florida is destined to a be a very large logistics hub with much Asia based cargo coming through its ports. Those companies have to base themselves somewhere. There are "spin off" companies as well that will be supporting those larger firms. They will locate in low cost areas with good transportation infrastructure.
Even if it doesn't make sense to build today (toll or otherwise) it does make sense to start acquiring ROW today in anticipation of the future needs. We may not be alive when it finally comes to full fruition, but at least those with some foresight saw the needs of the future and responded appropriately.
A good example was the I-355 (& Extension) in Illinois. In the late 1980's it was debated up and down and all around about whether the thing was needed, the state had continued to acquire ROW since the 1950's in anticipation that the need would develop. By 1986 it was determined that the suburban density had reached a point that it was feasible to run as a tollroad.
It originally opened in 1989 and within 2 years it was so busy, plans started immediately to take it to 3 lanes. (Completed 1993) They recently completed the extension to Joliet and again, it was debated up and down and all around that it wasn't needed. Economic growth in the area was grown threefold. It attracted major distribution centers for its excellent locale within all routes to 3 states.
Now, in 1995 the same politicos who got I-355 worked out decided they wanted to do it again and this time tried to push through the Fox Valley Freeway to relieve traffic from IL-59. It failed miserably. Why? Many reasons, the most important, the state never acquired any ROW in the projected path. Expensive, many home relocations and no economic benefits doomed it from the start.
It has now moved west of the Fox River. The Prairie Parkway is now being proposed. Just like the I-795 beltway in NE Florida, low population density, large river to cross (Illinois River), but the strategic value is huge as it will connect the inter-Rockford/Chicago corridor with the future Chicago airport planned for Peotone, and further into Indiana to I-65 to serve as a major reliever to the I-65/I-80/I-294 Chicago bypass. (parts of which were built in 1956 and reaching capacity)
It won't be built at the earliest 2020/2025, but they are getting the ROW now (less expensively), so as the population and business moves outward the placement is already there.
I-795 is not and will never be a Jacksonville commute zone. If anything it will provide access to the 9A/I-295 ring for easy Jaxport access. All business commutes in the future to Jax in NE Florida should be looking at non-auto alternatives. The issues that "ring roads" like this present is that they support a disproportionate amount of ring commuting, meaning someone working at Cecil will live in Nocatee, not off Normandy Road. This is what drive transit planners bonkers.
I-795 may not justify itself today, but it is strategic to NE Florida's future. It may not be in our near lifetime to use, but it has value in its planning. At the least ROW acquisition should continue.
Mattius92
May 07, 2010, 10:46:38 PMWhile the points against the creation of I-795 are very good. Jacksonville has been for years a place of uncontrolled sprawl. I-795 will in the long run create more of that. However it does help two of our biggest assets: Jaxport and Mayport. However the introduction of Commuter Rail and improving the existing infastructure will totally beat spending $1.8 billion on the outer beltway. While I know that I-795 will be built. I am just hoping that better ideas for the Outer Beltway will be thought of.
JTA commuter rail project map. Now thats a smart idea.
thelakelander
May 07, 2010, 11:05:50 PMWith I-95, I-295 and 9A right up the street, the "help" for JAXPORT and Mayport will be minimal at best. However, what this road will really do is allow greater access to the highway network for new developments springing up in that area. Like rail, it will become an economic generator. However, what it generates will be automobile based due to current land use regulations.
St. Auggie
May 08, 2010, 07:18:25 AMspuwho, I think you will find that the sprawl haters on here would bring that up as a reason against building the outerbeltway. My favorite part though about the 355 expansion was that they started it, put up supports for overpasses etc, and then it SAT there for years before they started it again and finished it.
thelakelander
May 08, 2010, 07:38:58 AMAfter seeing our city budget continuing to go belly up because of the strains low spread out development puts on its ability to provide basic municipal services, can you blame Jacksonville residents for wanting to see change?
Mattius92
May 08, 2010, 12:27:39 PMJacksonville is HUGE area wise, and so large that millions of more poeple could fit in the area of Jacksonville just fine. There is no need to keep up the growing outward and start to grow inward and upward.
However must people are for smart development, but I think for that smart more dense development to work we need better infrastructure like mass transit to and from these areas. Then we will start to see stuff pop up around these areas.
BRING ON THE METRORAIL!!!
CS Foltz
May 08, 2010, 12:31:42 PMCommuter rail, rather than concrete, should be the answer. Scheduled correctly, even freight could use some of the tracks so Jaxport should be thinking rail rather than more concrete since that is more efficient cost wise permile than trucking everything in four directions.............but thats just me!!
jandar
May 08, 2010, 10:25:33 PMIf you add commuter rail across the St Johns near or south of the Buckman Bridge, then you can eliminate the outer beltway.
You cannot expect people to drive 5-15 minutes to a rail station, then 20-30 minutes downtown, and then another 20+ minutes back to the southside. Why spend 1+ hour to take rail, when a 45 minute car commute gives them the freedom of not being stuck adhering to a train schedule.
JC
May 09, 2010, 01:51:18 AMSharing tracks with freight would be a huge mistake. I took Amtrak from Myrtle Beach to Manhattan and south of DC I was stuck behind a broken down CSX train for 7 hours. Along the Hudson and the Harlem Lines in NY, there is no freight allowed, they are too slow and long, sharing would only complicate the logistics and the first time a commuter heading to work gets stuck on the train for an hour it will be their last.
CS Foltz
May 09, 2010, 07:55:24 AMJC .....you do have a point, but I would have to ask which is worst, stuck for an hour plus because of a fender bender or a dead vehicle or stuck on a train for the same amount of time? Seperate trackage just for a masstransit system is one thing, but using existing tracks would require sharing.............not sure but I know I am for the path of least financial resistance!
thelakelander
May 09, 2010, 08:03:03 AMSharing the rails is all about who has the priority. If a company like CSX owns the tracks, their trains will most likely have the priority. If its a local or regional line owned by a transportation authority like Austin's Capital Metro (Metrorail), their commuter rail trains will have the priority.
Ocklawaha
May 09, 2010, 10:40:30 AMSharing tracks with freight would be a huge mistake. I took Amtrak from Myrtle Beach to Manhattan and south of DC I was stuck behind a broken down CSX train for 7 hours. Along the Hudson and the Harlem Lines in NY, there is no freight allowed, they are too slow and long, sharing would only complicate the logistics and the first time a commuter heading to work gets stuck on the train for an hour it will be their last.
JC this is a non-problem. Amtrak out in the boonies on a freight railroad is WAY different then a dense urban layout of tracks such as Jacksonville's. In the countryside a railroad like CSX might, read that MIGHT, have a passing siding every 5-10 miles, ditto for cross-overs allowing the train to pass from one to another track in double track territory. So just for examples sake, let's say there are 6 passing sidings and 2 cross-overs in a one hundred mile line. In Jacksonville, within the bounds of 50 miles in any direction from Jacksonville Terminal, we probably have 15-20 per route.
Chicago, New york, Los Angeles, and virtually every other major city use freight railroad tracks with various ownerships for commuter rail. Not to do so would put the economics of commuter rail on par with Light Rail or Bus Rapid Transit, where an exclusive right of way is created for a single travel mode. These economics probably exist between downtown and the beaches, as well as the near-north/south/westside, but not to St. Augustine, Green Cove Springs, Baldwin, Yulee or Callahan.
So do I see Light Rail tossed into our mix? Watch the beach routes... Otherwise we'll be a duplicate of Trinity Rail Express in Dallas, or a mini-Metro-Link as in Los Angeles.
Note the difference in the urban trackage and rural Virginia/Carolina, keeping in mind that rebuilt with just a fraction of the tracks we once had - our station is LARGER then LOS ANGLES!.
OCKLAWAHA
Mattius92
May 09, 2010, 12:20:51 PMLike Ock said, the rail lines within Jacksonville are very well built, and have capabilities for large capacity. Like the FEC, used to be an Class I railway(its currently a class II), so we know that it can handle much more rail traffic. Also the S-line is all owned by JTA, so that's another section that would be just commuter. And the line down US-17 has plenty of capacity. On top of that we have rail going into about every major part of town except the Regency and the Beaches. Which one day we hope there will be a light rail line down that way. Jacksonville has the rail infrastructure we just need to add the stations and the trains.
stjr
May 10, 2010, 01:26:28 AMFYI, for those touting 9B (I-795) as a savior of the port, keep in mind it was proposed years before Mitsui and Hanjin. Just more proof the special interests got an early start on their land speculation. Unless 9A/I-295 East is six or eight laned, that "port traffic" isn't going to make it to 9B very easily to boot. Spend the 9B money on making 9A what it should be and we will all be better off.
Outer Beltway is pork barrel to the 10th power! This project needs to be investigated by those crack "local" reporters all our local media claim to have (LOL!).
tufsu1
May 10, 2010, 08:21:16 AMI would also like to clarify that the Outer Beltway would not be I-795....if it were to ever get a interstate designation, it would be an even # (like I-210 or I-495).
I'm also curious about SR 9B...just about every road that connects 2 interstates is given an even #...if the I-795 designation has already been reserved, then its likely the road will continue south from I-95.
Ocklawaha
May 10, 2010, 10:48:05 AMInterstate numbering on NON primary routes are always 3 - digit numbers. North - South routes are always odd numbers, belt routes or loops are always even numbers as are East - West routes.
Most business spur routes have a ONE designation in front of the primary number, thus the Pensacola downtown spur is Interstate 110.
This tells us 795 is NOT a business spur, it runs North - South, is not primary to the national system.
OCKLAWAHA
Doctor_K
May 10, 2010, 12:22:50 PMWell that, and I-195 is already in use down in Miami.
thelakelander
May 10, 2010, 12:30:25 PMI-395 and I-595 are taken as well. I-795 is next in line.
Question. What happens if you run out of three digit numbers?
Mattius92
May 10, 2010, 12:34:14 PMThe Outer Beltway is part of SR-23 and it will probably retain that name until it is up to highway standards, and that could be years after it is built. However the first phase of SR-9B will be built, so we cant really stop it, but the complete I-795 section could be stopped if we showed enough opposition. The first phase will just serve as an SR-9A/I-295 connector from US-1. Stop it there and we will be $300-400 million less in the hole. Stop the Outer Beltway we will be over $2 billion less in the hole. However, we would have to spend several hundred million revamping the existing infrastructure if they chose to drop those projects. We cant just drop them and expect everything to be fine. There is still tons of poeple in Clay and St. Johns that need better ways to commute to Jacksonville.
Odd digit four-number, like I-1195 or I-1395... dunno, just a guess.
tufsu1
May 10, 2010, 01:12:02 PMNot quite true Ock...only the 2-digit interstate system follows the north-south=odd and east-west=even rule....
the 3 digit systems work this way...odd # routes go to a point (like I-110 in Pcola, I-175 and I-375 in St. Pete, and I-195 and I-595 in Miami)...even # routes are loops or connect two facilities together.
As for running out of numbers, there are lots of I-295s around...I think it is only limited by state...so it seems to me that I-495, I-695, and I-895 are all available in FL...also keep in mind that if the Outer Beltway ever got a number, it could be based off of I-10 (like I-210).
Mattius92
May 10, 2010, 01:29:11 PMyeah, it would be I-210, mainly because however names them likes to switch the beltway root numbers up so you dont have beltways like this, I-295, I-495, I-695. But more like this, I-295, I-210, I-204. (Though the I-204 wouldn't be seen in Jax.)
On top of that there is only one I-10 auxiliary route in FL , which is I-110 in Pensacola, and FL already has a load of I-95 auxiliary routes so it would be most wise to use an I-10 auxiliary number.
north miami
May 13, 2010, 09:46:19 AMBillboard: Experience the Barbarian Beltway!
"Progress,far from consisting of change,depends on retentiveness.When change is absolute,no works remain to be improved and no direction is set for possible improvement,and when experience is not retained,as among savages,infancy is perpetual.Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.In the first stage of life,the mind is frivolous and easily distracted:it misses progress by failing in consecutiveness and persistence.This is the condition of children and barbarians,in which instinct has learned nothing from experience"
-George Santayana
"When the talk turns to grand visions of the future,it's worth remembering the moment we discovered for ourselves that a perfect place(or potentially perfect place) had been erased."
-Chris Madson
Mattius92
May 13, 2010, 12:15:15 PMhaha, the barbarian beltway, good one North Miami. Its time to change the outer beltway to a commuter rail line, now I would dig that.
spuwho
May 19, 2010, 10:11:47 PMSt. Auggie sez;
"spuwho, I think you will find that the sprawl haters on here would bring that up as a reason against building the outerbeltway. My favorite part though about the 355 expansion was that they started it, put up supports for overpasses etc, and then it SAT there for years before they started it again and finished it. "
Agreed, the I-355 supports over I-55 stood there for years awaiting for the green lawsuits to run their course. My only regret in the project was the elimination of the massive suspension bridge planned for the Des Plaines River. Cost cutting took it out.
Getting back to NE Florida;
I am no fan of sprawl, but we can't have it both ways. Transit only works when leadership supports transit in a holistic fashion, re: transit oriented zoning. When the Times Union ran their last story and editorial on NE Florida transit, people responded that they didn't want it unless it made money! 99 percent of transportation in NE Florida is by roads supported by munis paid back through gas taxes, no toll booths perhaps, but not "free" as perceived. Transit making money is unrealistic. Roads consume money, transit consumes money. Their benefit is public.
The people were very clear with Hazouri that toll roads were no good, so even when roads try to make money in NE Florida people don't like it. Again, can't have it both ways. Roads aren't free, neither is transit.
Cars/Trucks aren't going away in the next 10, 15 or 20 years. So it is economic suicide to think that no further infrastructure should be built to handle future growth. The outer belt will be needed, but NE Florida needs a comprehensive transportation plan that includes funding for all aspects of the transportation equation.
Those that say "stop building new roads and improve the ones we already have" ....or "build transit now", you will be the first people we will go to to ask for tax (or toll) dollars to pay for those initiatives. Neither one is free, neither option is cheap, but whatever you think is better, we will ask you to pay for it.
thelakelander
May 19, 2010, 10:23:14 PMWe can't afford and don't need the Outer Beltway but a great local transportation system includes a mix of viable transportation options. That includes roads, transit and integrating land use with both of them. Since roads cost significantly more than everything else, investing a little more in enhancing the alternatives is a money saver for a cash strapped community.
Mattius92
May 19, 2010, 10:26:21 PMWe dont need the outer beltway, once mass transit is in place, development around it will soon arise, and it will be denser and much better then the low-density sprawl that the Outer Beltway will create.
Ocklawaha
May 19, 2010, 10:47:02 PMThis is where I got it TUFSU1...
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/interstate.cfm
The Interstate route marker is a red, white, and blue shield, carrying the word "Interstate", the State name, and the route number. Officials of AASHTO developed the procedure for numbering the routes. Major Interstate routes are designated by one- or two-digit numbers. Routes with odd numbers run north and south, while even numbered run east and west. For north-south routes, the lowest numbers begin in the west, while the lowest numbered east-west routes are in the south. By this method, Interstate Route 5 (I-5) runs north-south along the west coast, while I-10 lies east-west along the southern border.
In two cases, a major route has two parallel or diverging branches. In those cases, each branch is given the designation of the main route, followed by a letter indicating a cardinal direction of travel (east, west, etc). In Texas, for example, I-35 splits at Hillsboro, with I-35E going through Dallas, while I-35W goes through Fort Worth. The two branches merge at Denton to reform I-35. A similar situation exists along I-35 in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area of Minnesota.
The major route numbers generally traverse urban areas on the path of the major traffic stream. Generally, this major traffic stream will be the shortest and most direct line of travel. Connecting Interstate routes and full or partial circumferential beltways around or within urban areas carry a three-digit number. These routes are designated with the number of the main route and an even-numbered prefix. Supplemental radial and spur routes, connecting with the main route at one end, also carry a three-digit number, using the number of the main route with an odd-number prefix.
To prevent duplication within a State, a progression of prefixes is used for the three-digit numbers. For example, if I-80 runs through three cities in a State, circumferential routes around these cities would be numbered as I-280, I-480, and I-680. The same system would be used for spur routes into the three cities, with routes being numbered I-180, I-380, and I-580, respectively. This system is not carried across State lines. As a result, several cities in different States along I-80 may each have circumferential beltways numbered as I-280 or spur routes numbered as I-180.
OCKLAWAHA
stjr
May 19, 2010, 11:46:06 PMNot so sure of this spuwho. Cars/trucks will be around but over the next 20 to 50 years they may (not if, when?) become rarer for several reasons. We are fast approaching the limits of road building in much of the country. We will be forced to rebuild with mass transit solutions. And, it is very possible that the cost of energy becomes so high due to supply interruptions or shrinkage, that the masses are driven to more energy efficient alternative lifestyles, including mass transit AND dense urbanized communities where commutes are greatly reduced and housing either shrinks or utilizes more resource efficient multifamily buildings that overtake scattered single family buildings.
jandar
May 20, 2010, 11:44:55 AMBy that same token stjr, all of those workers who work most places downtown and the southside can be just as efficient working from home as they can working an office.
I actually see less travel due to telecommuting. Hell, 95% of my job can be done from a computer and I can carry a IP phone with me and work out of practically anything. (and I have had 3 offers to work full time from home this past year)
What I can forsee is more zones of denser development. Not urban so much, but walkable places.
More people will work from home, lowering the need for commuter transit, and reducing car travel as well.
Most call center type employees could work at home full time, and only spend a few days a year in the office for training purposes.
Basically companies like Fidelity Investments already do a form of telecommuting. Instead of their employees working from home, they have regional offices were people work. Its the same premise.
You will see a growth in telecommuters, and a decrease in infrastructure needs because of this.