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Despite being a historic urban public space, the Confederate Park concept calls for a dramatic modern makeover. A larger pond will consume a significant piece of the historic property and the recently constructed dog park will be relocated to the site of an existing building on an adjacent block. Sketches also indicate a "micro grocery" in the middle of the park in an existing structure on site.
The most dynamic makeover occurs south of Hogans Creek. Here, plans indicate the demolition of four blocks of private property for future mixed-use urban infill, a pedestrian corridor along Orange Street, and additional open park space on the corner of Main & State, one of the urban core's busiest intersections.
A streetcar line that will connect Springfield with Downtown will also run in this area. As the plan progresses, more consideration should be placed into making sure mass transit is properly integrated into the master plan.
The new dog park would be relocated one block east of its present site.
Klutho Park
Here, the master plan concept calls for the conversion of Klutho Park into an atmosphere that mixes passive and active recreational uses. Components of the plan include flipping the current configuration of the baseball and soccer fields, replacing the 1st Street bridge with a narrow, yet iconic structure and the creation of an urban public square with Karpeles as the central anchor point.
Unfortunately, the plan is weak when considering better connectivity between the downtown core and the parks via Laura Street. With the Laura Street project getting underway in January, the plan currently misses a golden opportunity to encourage a stronger pedestrian friendly connection along one of downtown's most walkable corridors. In addition, it also calls for the complete demolition of Klutho's historic balustrades. In their place, the creek will be allowed to expand and flow more freely.
Klutho's balustrades, the park's most defining historic feature, will be lost if the plan is developed as shown.
McPhearson & Schell Parks
Plans for this section adjacent to Shands Jacksonville call for the demolition of the Duval County Health Department building and Klutho's balustrades in favor of a recreational space featuring tennis courts, basketball courts, volleyball courts, a playground, a skate park and an open community green. Issues still needing to be addressed include the integration of a bus rapid transit station and proposed VA Clinic with the park and the inclusion of retail/dining/vendor space within the park's borders.
What's Next?
Per HDR, the concepts were favorably received, and we anticipate having another vetting meeting with institutional and corporate stakeholders in the coming weeks. The scope of the master plan includes determining timing/cost for environmental remediation of soil and water, stormwater management (flood control), preservation and restoration of historic assets where possible, and inclusion of amenities and beautification components. The master plan is scheduled for completion in January 2010, though a short delivery delay is looking probable as we get into the holiday season.
Conclusion
Looking towards Hogans Creek along Laura Street.
In conclusion, the Hogans Creek Master Plan is a good start in developing a conceptual vision for the area. The plan incorporates many design elements and features that are needed to make a good public space. As the plan is further refined, greatness can be achieved by placing a stronger emphasis on elements that lead to the creation of an urban atmosphere with a "unique sense of place."
A few of these elements include Florida State College at Jacksonville, the State & Union corridor, and proposals for the Laura Street Streetscape, a streetcar system and the Laura Street TOD development.
FCSJ's Downtown Campus is adjacent to Hogans Creek, Laura, Main and Orange Streets.
By achieving better utilization and integration of existing assets, making historic preservation a higher priority, and striving for strong connectivity along all streets that directly connect Springfield with Downtown, the parks along Hogans Creek will become as popular as they once were 80 years ago.
Update by Ennis Davis
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Charles Hunter
November 20, 2009, 06:35:40 AMInteresting. This will be very costly, beyond the enviro remediation - relocating the Health Department, and an open, apparently viable business (Warren Motors) on State Street. If Federal funds are proposed, removing the historic Klutho features may be a big stumbling block. Have these features (the balustrades, for example) been recognized "historic" by any agency, like State Historic Preservation or the City?
fsu813
November 20, 2009, 06:46:31 AM#1 - The money is there through various resources.
#2 - I hope they've been deemed offically 'historic'. If not, that was a big oversight.
#3 -New Kluthlo balustrades are planned, if i'm not mistaken. The old ones would be disregarded for continuity and cost reasons. If there is any way to at least consolidate and rehab the ones that aren't in that bad of shape into one strech, that would be great. I conceed that rehabbing every single balustrade regardless of condition is probably out of the question.
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 06:48:32 AMAny idea of what happens with the health department? If forced to relocate, do they plan to leave Springfield or go to a site that can help continue the commercial revitalization of the area?
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 06:53:33 AMLooking at the Confederate Park rendering, it looks like the front half of Klutho's Claude Nolan building (Main & Orange) has been chopped off to make room for a right turn lane and island on Orange. The small Klutho warehouse behind it is also gone. If those two go, they should probably go ahead and tear down the middle section as well. Also, is the city assuming that they will take over the Park View Inn site?
sheclown
November 20, 2009, 07:28:27 AM"micro grocery"?
A new convenience store in Springfield --
sheclown
November 20, 2009, 07:30:51 AMSounds a bit like we are knocking down our historic heritage in favor of World Golf Village.
I don't love Springfield for the soccer fields (there are enough of them in the city) I love Springfield for the historic components.
fsu813
November 20, 2009, 07:38:13 AM"potential micro grocery" actually.........basically the guy was just trying to think of what may be a useful, popular use there.
It could have said "Ice cream stand", etc.
I do think some of the designs are bit too modern as well. Probably not that hard to address.
Again, this was just the first rough draft.
What specifically takes away from the history/heritage and makes it feel too "wordl Golf Village" in your eyes?
NthDegree
November 20, 2009, 08:11:03 AMThe master plan looks highly conceptual, but then, this article assumes I know a lot about this project already. I wish I had a little more background on the project's objectives.
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 08:24:28 AMHere is some background info:
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/09/21/story5.html
BridgeTroll
November 20, 2009, 08:26:36 AMI am not in favor of returning the creek to its "natural state". This is now an urban waterway. Refurbish and renew Kluthos design. Dredge and clean the canal. Institute flood and flow measures. A return to a "natural state" will promote a marshy, muddy, inaccessible creekside promoting mosquito's and stagnant polluted water.
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 08:28:49 AMHere is a photo tour of the park system's current condition.
The Ruins of Jacksonville: Hogans Creek
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jun-the-ruins-of-jacksonville-hogans-creek
fsujax
November 20, 2009, 08:40:35 AMI want to see the whole park system restored and made as interactive as possible. We should strive to maintain all historical elements as well. Imagine being able to ride a gondola from Shands all the way to near the stadium, how cool would that be?
strider
November 20, 2009, 08:50:20 AMWhile many details are missing from this initial plan, I do agree that to return the creek to something more "natural" seems like a mistake. Perhaps we should not have done what we and other cities did years ago to the various creeks and waterways that run through our cities, but we did it and to go back now seems to require eliminating the cities around the waterways themselves. Anything less seems destined to end up with failure as it will only be a half measure at best. The creek must be addressed for what it is now, a canal through an urban area.
Kultho had a good plan that seemed to work. Perhaps it needs revisited to some degree as we have most likely added more runoff and such as the development of the area went forward, but his plan was sound and it is unique and historic. Rebuilding the park in that image seems like the best solution.
Also, I do believe the Health Department was built on land donated to the city for the exclusive purpose of being permanently a park. They city found a way around it and built those buildings. Loosing them would not be a bad idea. By the way, the city wanted to give up more of the park not that long ago for the Walgreens to be built there. Obviously, HSCC fought that and we still have a Walgreens.
sheclown
November 20, 2009, 08:55:40 AMI'm all for convenience stores. I was being sarcastic. (attempting to at least)
Getting rid of the balustrades "takes away from the history." Getting rid of the canal "takes away from the history." There are many natural creeks and streams in Jacksonville, not many Klutho canals.
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 08:58:34 AMWho would consume the costs of relocation? Will they pick up and relocate for free?
If they do, do we really want them out of the neighborhood or is there another spot in the area where they can contribute to the urban landscape more positively?
heights unknown
November 20, 2009, 08:59:44 AMI agree with "SheClown;" why not try and preserve as much of the historic components and aspects of the Park and Springfield by renovationg, upgrading, and building upon what's already there insteady of demolishing, tearing down and rebuilding. We've lost too much of our heritage, in so many different ways in the past half a century. But if they do decide to tear down and rebuild, they'd better do it smartly, effectively, and in a way that will lure citizens to it and not let it be another wasteful something that we built and no one used.
Heights Unknown
BridgeTroll
November 20, 2009, 08:59:51 AMNatural State???
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 09:07:38 AMOr this.....
ChriswUfGator
November 20, 2009, 09:21:31 AMIMO, any viable plan for this project needs to;
A: Incorporate funds for a simple lock/dam located at the head of the creek to control the creek's tidal flux.
Despite what FSU says, the mouth of the creek really isn't that big and this wouldn't cost that much. The original device was really just a wooden spillway that cost next-to-nothing to begin with. Pictures have been posted of it here before. It doesn't have to be elaborate, and in fact the original was inexpensive and far from elaborate, and it worked great for a long time. We're not talking about the Hoover Dam here.
B: Repair the ORIGINAL balustrades and Klutho items, rather than just tearing them down and replacing them with look-a-like's. Again, I can't even believe we're actually discussing this.
fsu813
November 20, 2009, 09:39:16 AMZoo mentioned earleir that a lock/pump system is not out of the question afterall.....
I can believe we are actually discussing it. That's the whole purpose of going through drafts: to discuss and get input.
billy
November 20, 2009, 09:46:18 AMDoesn't part of the flooding problem also have to do with the increased drainage area?
That is, the total area of impervious surface contributing to the volume of storm water draining
into the creek is greater now than when the park was built.
billy
November 20, 2009, 09:53:22 AMI am not wild about tearing down a portion of the structures at the rear (eastern) Claude Nolan Cadillac dealership.
reednavy
November 20, 2009, 09:57:56 AMIt doesn't really matter what they do with the canal section, because if the St. Johns is high and the water has nowhere to go, you're screwed either way.
Just like the pic of Fay's flooding Lake posted, there is no way getting around that.
fsu813
November 20, 2009, 10:12:28 AMBilly & Rednavy,
Yes. That was the point of widening the creek, and having small resevoir areas along the way, and leaving some of the edges along side the creek as 'natural habibat' for flooding.
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 10:16:54 AMIts also one of the background reasons for the creation of the Metro Jacksonville website and the forum. Many of the items and input provided in a thread like this can be used as valuable background information for those designing and shaping projects like the Hogans Creek Master Plan.
ChriswUfGator
November 20, 2009, 10:38:03 AMWhat I meant by that comment was that I couldn't believe anyone would think about tearing down these historic Klutho structures in the first place. I think it's nuts that anyone would even suggest that as part of a proposal.
Ocklawaha
November 20, 2009, 10:40:42 AMThe nicest thing would be to see the historic features preserved, but understand that Klutho was a designer not a builder. He didn't build the balustrades, he designed them, if we went with new ones it could still be HIS design.
Hogan's Creek will still flood until the City-State fixes the tiny box culvert under the Arlington Expressway, right under where State, Union, and the Expressway meet.
The bridges all along need to be raised about 6 feet, this WOULD allow canoe, kayak or gondola boats to pass. As it is now, unless your a micro-person on a paddle board, you are not getting under them.
That micro-grocery is a great idea IF there is high traffic otherwise it will flop. The same concept is used with fantastic results in Medellin, Colombia, where modern parks and plazas have purpose build micro-shops. Dunkin Donuts is one of the most popular and has a lot of experience in the micro-trade. Understand that Medellin also has full size versions of all of these places so this is not some 3Rd world freak.
OCKLAWAHA
ChriswUfGator
November 20, 2009, 10:46:49 AMSo Frank Lloyd Wright or I.M Pei were out there swinging their own hammers? LOL
Come on, it doesn't happen. The original balustrades are no less Klutho's work because the one man didn't physically pour them himself. That's normal, and par for the course. They are historic structures, created by our only real local architect of note. They should be saved!
Overstreet
November 20, 2009, 10:54:29 AMI used to sit at the University Medical Cetner Construciton site (1995) and watch the Health Department parking lot flood up to windshields during significant thunderstorms. I'm sure those employees would like to move away from the creek.
ChriswUfGator
November 20, 2009, 10:58:03 AMAnother reason I can't believe the plan doesn't incorporate the re-construction of a flood-control device. It's not like COJ is blissfully unaware of this problem, since their own properties are affected by it.
NthDegree
November 20, 2009, 11:29:01 AMThank you for the link, I think I understand the project much better.
Careful with this one!
The architect Klutho (architects have in the past often tried their hands at shaping leisure landscape) is closely associated with the development history of Jacksonville, and measures should be taken to preserve his work.
Jacksonville seems to be doing a fine job of this to date.
For this park, any proposed plan should focus on measures that enhance the character defining features of the original plans. Prairie school design is characterized by open plans, horizontal lines, and the use of indigenous materials. A style which I should think would lend itself well to any park setting.
So my question is, are the current designers using an approach that honors Klutho's design philosophy?
Jason
November 20, 2009, 11:54:37 AMIMO, flood control needs to be the primary objective for the Creek but the mindset that it should look good and be a part of a larger master plan. If the park is always flooded when it rains, all the decorations in the world are still void of any appreciation and enjoyment.
Ocklawaha
November 20, 2009, 12:15:36 PMOf course we SHOULD save all of the original stuff we can, but considering re-bar, I'm not sure how easy that is going to come up. Making a pattern off of the originals is the next best thing for casting concrete, obviously we don't have enough intact segments to complete the project.
Remember guys, sarcasm is my "spiritual gift..."
You could dredge that creek out and create a cruise ship canal out of it, but unless they rebuild the expressway box culvert, and hopefully give us a 6' clearance, it still won't drain.
I'm also concerned about the "MODERN" mix with the original, without care they could destroy the tranquility of the place.
OCKLAWAHA
Bike Jax
November 20, 2009, 12:31:06 PMHere's what I don't see. Any connectivity. It appears that the city is making plans to treat each section of park as separate entities when if it is truly a central park system them it should be treated as such. There should be included within the plans a nice mulituse trail the runs the length of the parks along Hogans Creek.
ChriswUfGator
November 20, 2009, 12:36:37 PMLike anything else, I guess it probably comes down to $$$$.
But when you're dealing with historic structures, I think this should be less of a concern for COJ than when they're just re-paving a street or installing a sidewalk or whatnot. We can't just keep knocking down everything historic because it's cheaper and easier. That can only go on so long, before you've lost what was special in the first place.
+1
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 12:47:51 PMI thought the Hogans Creek Greenway was already funded? It doesn't appear to be shown in the drawings. Has it been eliminated?
Captain Zissou
November 20, 2009, 01:15:32 PM++4
stephendare
November 20, 2009, 01:32:56 PMThere are a few unconsidered realities in this park 'design' suggestion put together by the group that generated it.
Property rights and ownership of the land.
1. the 'gateway park' sits on the property owned by Robert Van Winkel and his partner. He was not a part of this discussion, nor was he asked if he was interested in donating building, land or even his well wishes to the idea of snatching his land for this ill thought out, density killing flat patch at the opening of springfield.
2. The 'turn lane' on orange avenue would require that Chris Hionides or Rich Kuhn demolish 3/4 of the Claude Nolan Cadillac buildings. He was not a part of this discussion, nor was he asked if he was interested in donating building, land or even his well wishes to the idea of snatching his land for this use.
3. The Respess Grimes Building is demolished in this suggested plan. The owner was not a part of this discussion, nor was he asked if he was interested in donating building, land or even his well wishes to the idea of snatching his land for this use.
4. Neither were any of the other people whose properties were demolished by this bit of pen and ink.
The original purpose of the Canal. The Hogans Creek was notorious and dangerous for its natural bed of deadly quick mud. Many people lost their lives making chance or panicked crossings of the canal. The conditions that create quick mud didnt just go away. Also Klutho designed and executed this canal and retention pond as a way of draining the swamp and wetlands that Springfield is built on. In this he was successful. If anyone would like to check out the outcome of returning the waterway to its natural course, they can drop by the sinking stone castle on Boulevard.
The quickmud is the original reason for the curious foundation and sublayers at the bottom of the canal, incidentally.
This was one of the reasons that people were moving out of Springfield to the Riverside Avondale suburbs in the teens and twenties of the 20th century.....more solid land.
Since the watercourse has been stable for lo these 80s years, there isnt a compelling argument against Klutho's original stroke of genius in solving quick mud, flooding, and shifting terrain.
In the intervening years, The City, in its infinite wisdom filled in some of the land with city dump landfill In particular the infill bit in the middle of the park system, and the Hogan Creek Park Building and the government housing project.
Taking away the balustrade is inviting the saturation of that old landfill with water and direct drainage into the creek itself.
Finally there are the aesthetic considerations.
Seriously? Another passive park in the heart of the downtown at the gateway of State and Main?
This is one of the worst ideas Ive heard since the Pocket Park Debacle.
This is an urban neigborhood people. If we want a walkable community, there has to be density enough to support it. Tearing down yet another commercial swatch of buildings for passive empty use is decreasing, not increasing density and street vibrancy.
The plan all but ignores the two largest natural users of the park system.
FSCJ and Shands Hospital.
Nothing is done to create connectivity to these large density centers, no ease of access no paralell use, no suggested public private partnership to create connectivity with either institutions.
There are some solid ideas here, to be sure.
But then some really solid ideas are totally not included as well. the skate park to be sure.
Green energy components? Educational use? Bioremediation implements to guard against future seeping pollution? Active gardening? Historic and public art?
As it stands......its impossible to be for it without some fairly major revisions and research.
finehoe
November 20, 2009, 01:51:54 PM...to help create a master plan for the 27-acre neglected city parks that stretch from Liberty Street to Eighth Street.
Are there any plans in place to ensure that once the money is spent to re-hab the park it isn't neglected again?
Ocklawaha
November 20, 2009, 01:58:56 PMMore like "Quick Shit" today.
There is a large patch on the Ortega River land, West of NAS Jax too. Happily it is only about 3 feet deep which made it an excellent play area for young Florida boys in the 50's. Not only deadly, but sometimes really fun! However it does stain your clothes and your mom was likely to cop a bad attitude. The only solution seemed to be bringing home a couple of snakes each day, then she would just leave you alone.
OCKLAWAHA
fsujax
November 20, 2009, 01:59:08 PMI agree. Enough with the passive park space! We need to create better uses especially along and near Main St.
BridgeTroll
November 20, 2009, 02:11:32 PMhttp://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52772
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 02:15:34 PMHere is the Shands Jacksonville master plan. Between Shands and the proposed VA Clinic site, this medical campus will run along the west border of the park from 8th to just south of 5th Street.
stephendare
November 20, 2009, 02:20:54 PMMaybe if the primary neighborhood group wasnt so busy trying to decide which group of people to drive out of the district next, it might have been able to help with the research or advocate on the points which flawed this plan.
I dunno, but making the giant municipal park that practically defines the neighborhood into a working organic and vibrant organism seems like it would be more worthwhile than asking neighbors to spy on each other's living arrangements.
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 02:22:43 PMHere's the FSCJ Downtown Campus Master Plan:
The creek can be seen in the northeast corner.
stephendare
November 20, 2009, 02:26:11 PMLake, all of these things have been available for a while havent they?
Both the Shands and the FCCJ Masterplans?
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 02:49:07 PM^I pulled them from old MJ threads. Both have been around for at least three years or so.
stephendare
November 20, 2009, 02:51:10 PMSo you mean, they were available to the hogans creek proposal committee?
GideonGlib
November 20, 2009, 03:15:17 PMIf someone brought up this point and I missed it, I am sorry, but is no one else seeing it as a problem that they are taking a brand new 3 acre dog park, that is actually now not only seeing neighborhood folks in Springfield and Downtown using it daily, but also bringing in folks from Arlington, San Marco, and Riverside and condensing it to a small plot on the edge of this plan?
I use this dog park 4-5 day a week, every day I am there and talk to people from all over town who are just now discovering it, and loving it. People through this park see Springfield in a new light, and it is constantly giving me an opportunity to talk up the neighborhood and other assets like Uptown Market, 3 Layers, Walkable nieghborhood, etc...
My point in this large park, nicer than the dog park in Atlanta's Piedmont Park is working to bring people and life into Springfield, if anything it should be expanded not made smaller and relegated to a far corner of this new plan. Any new plan should look at this as something that is working and expand upon that idea as a way to make this park system even more accessible to more people (and dogs).
stephendare
November 20, 2009, 03:29:02 PMThats right Gideon. They are moving the entire dogpark.
Besides you and Tommy, (i don't know your dog's screen name) how many people are usually in that park when you take him to play there?
GideonGlib
November 20, 2009, 03:54:44 PMWhen we first started going months back, it was few, it seems now as word is getting out every time that we go we are seeing more and more people there. Last time we went (Wednesday) there were at least 15 dogs with their owners there (I know at least two were from Riverside and one from San Marco). On an average evening there will be 5-10 Human/Dog park users, and sometimes more, on a nice weekend day the park is well used most of the day.
The Piedmont Dog Park in Atlanta http://www.piedmontpark.org/do/dogpark.html when I lived there was THE place to go for young professionals with pets after work.
It is really exciting to see the Confederate Dog Park here in Springfield starting to become as popular.
To make it smaller and move it would be a disgrace, if anything it should be expanded and promoted even more heavily. This could be part off the puzzle that finally brings Springfield up to it's potential from it's long standing faded glory.
I would write more, and might later, but as it happens Tommy-Peterson (my Italian greyhound) has a play date with Hanna (the mini-pin) and Sharky (the pug mix) (from Avondale) in just a little white.
Ocklawaha
November 20, 2009, 03:56:06 PMCan't see all of the lettering, but is that a "working" transportation building proposed for Pearl St? If so why not the Rosa Parks?
The other one is easier to spot, they want to put a garage so that it will take half of the available Skyway right 0f way! That one without a station is dumb as a bag of glass.
OCKLAWAHA
GideonGlib
November 20, 2009, 03:56:20 PMwhile...in just a little while.
stephendare
November 20, 2009, 03:57:14 PMfsu813
November 20, 2009, 04:03:05 PMStephen,
Perhaps if you actaully attended any of the various public meetings you could have provided input. Where were you? If you had attended any of them, many of your questions would be answered....not by me, but by the PPS group and the city planners. Since you didn't choose to attend any of them, perhaps you shouldn't be so eager to critisize. Show up next time!
Off the top of my head (from attending the public meetings) here are some answers to your questions and assertions:
1) Van Winkel is on very shakey ground with the city and probably won't get his property back, last I heard. As far as the other private property goes, i'm assuming that the city feels it won't be too much of an issue. If it turns out none of the private propety can used, fine. There are 100 other good visions for the park system. This a rough draft...revisions will inevitabley will be made.
2) You don't have to watch Van Winkels, Hionedes, etc backside for them. They are grown ups. They can speak for themselves.
3) Quick mud? From digesting your quick history of the notorious quick mud epidemic (sarcasm intended), it seems like you are against changing Klutho's orginal design because you are concerned about people dying in the mud. (ha). Ok. Well. Besides that rather outlandish concern, there are other legitimate reasons why one wouldn't want to change Klutho's designs. Quick mud? Not so much. The actual basustrades have nothing to do with quick mud and don't act as a barrier of any kind obviously. The landscape that they lie on might, but not the artifact. Again, plenty of legit reasons why one wouldn't want to move or get rid of the balustrades besides the "Your kids might die!" sensationalism.
4) PPS knows what they are doing. They are a highly successful organization that has transformed urban parks around the world. If you cared to attend any of the meetings (hint hint), you would already know that this is not meant to be a "passive" park system, but an active, destination driven park system. Bike baths, jogging paths, skate park, sports courts, water features, public art, interactive water features & interactive public art, mixed use, bioremediation, Shands & FSCJ usage, public event spaces ARE ALL IN THE PLAN AND HAVE BEEN OPENLY DISCUSSED. If you bothered to attend any of the meetings (broken record, anyone?) you would have known about it and been able to participate.
5) Revisions and research are expected as the process moves forward. A lock/pump system is not out of the question, from what Zoo said earlier. And Zoo would know.
Gideon,
I don't quite understand why they would want to move the dog park either, instead of just incorportating the current one. However, i don't think it would be smaller....just moved 1 block over. While it might not make much sense to me, I don't see the harm in it.
Lake,
I think having them take a look at Shands & FSCJ's "master plans" would be great, if they haven't done so already.
GideonGlib
November 20, 2009, 04:06:21 PMThe plan posted clearly showed an area that was only about 1/3 to 1/4 the size of the current dog park . I just think right now it is the only thing really working in that park system (and barring the riverwalk any park in the urban core) I don't see why they would mess with a good thing.
stephendare
November 20, 2009, 04:09:19 PMI am fairly certain that the posters on this forum do not need advice from other posters on when they should or should not offer criticism on the topics we choose to cover.
The plans are horrible, they rely on the permission of landowners who werent present to contribute and klutho's designs, believe it or not, included more than the balustrade.
Not knowing the history or topography of that park has broken the nose off the arguments of other springfielders on this forum, an example that might be helpful to new posters before they embarrass themselves with statements that they don't have the facts to back up.
Ock you are exactly right about the quick mud in Ortega.
Lunican
November 20, 2009, 04:34:24 PMWhat happened to the concepts from the visioning process that went on with the Army Corps of Engineers about 5 years ago?
sheclown
November 20, 2009, 04:39:49 PMIf the park were say...a historic house that needed restoration... one would have to repair original components, or replace with like materials not changing the style. The neighborhood is full of people who have taken this kind of care restoring their homes.
For the city to suggest taking the most significant historical feature of Springfield and drastically altering the style, is insulting to all of the people who love the historic nature of the community. Not to mention a slap in the face to homeowners who have paid extra for appropriate materials and painstakingly brought components back to life.
As for not going to public meetings? Sh*t! Who would have guessed anyone was seriously suggesting removing the canal from the neighborhood?
Does SPAR support this plan?
fsu813
November 20, 2009, 04:46:23 PMFYI: The creek is still there, along the same path.
Of course there hasn't been a proposal to "move it out of the neighborhood"
Exaggeration = bad.
I certainly don't speak for SPAR, but i'm going to take an educated guess and say they will wait and see what the final plan is before endorsing anything.
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 05:09:41 PMBefore people get too bent out of shape, things need to be put in their proper place. Overall, the plan has some good elements (a good mix of passive/active uses, etc.), along with several issues that need to be addressed (ex. historic preservation, connectivity, shifting around existing assets, etc.).
However, its VERY preliminary. The presentation format easily confirms this. As the process continues, reality will enter the picture and a more well thought out plan will be produced.
Ocklawaha
November 20, 2009, 06:32:22 PMLOS ANGELES LIVE STEAMERS, PASSENGER TRAIN COMING INTO THE DISNEY LOOP
RIVERSIDE LIVE STEAMERS TRACK, CITY PARK, RIVERSIDE CA.
TOP: IT'S NOT A STANLEY, IT'S A DOBLE BOTTOM: BRITISH STEAM CAR SEEKING WORLD RECORD + 1,000 MPH
DID SOMEONE SAY "LAKE?" HOW ABOUT "CREEK?"
OH TOYS AND FUN THINGYS WILL APPEAR TOO...
YOU'LL BE AMAZED WHY THE NEIGHBOR HAS KEPT HIS GARAGE SHUT FOR 10 YEARS!
OOP'S, WTF? HOW DID THIS GET ON HERE? YES LUNICAN, IT'S A REAL RAILROAD!
OCKLAWAHA
Lunican
November 20, 2009, 06:42:20 PMHere you go Ock...
chris farley
November 20, 2009, 07:03:40 PMMy God how beautiful, my brother in England would go crazy for this, his vactions are done riding trains to anywhere they take him
Springfielder
November 20, 2009, 08:30:18 PMthat is just so cool, and looks like it's a lot of fun
Ocklawaha
November 20, 2009, 08:32:29 PMThere is something magic about this machinery, and the children (of all ages) that build and play with them learn skills and craftsmanship of old school excellence. Engineering, design, construction, landscape, metal work, welding, math calculations, and fine woodworking just some of the fields this could open to our citizens. Since it's a International Brotherhood (IBLS) Live Steamers, there is much hands on, sharing, caring, and walking newbies through the ropes. Craftsmen passing skills down to others in a traditional style, slow perfection. Putting this in a city park, as done around the globe, would expose Jacksonville to a world of wonders.
Try these sites, including a couple for your brother in the UK.
http://www.steamdays.co.uk/index.php?page=stock
http://www.railsusa.com/links/Live_Steam_Mini_Rail/more12.html
http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/
http://www.livesteam.net/
http://www.steamingpriest.com/2008/07/26/international-brotherhood-of-live-steamers/ (for the IBLS)
Don't suffer sticker shock, it's not cheap until you learn to build from scratch. Sometimes a rare used piece comes along in a bargin deal. There is also a whole area of toy steam engines either antique or reproduction that knocks the price down to the hundreds. Otherwise better sell the BMW! The hobby is incredible fun and we have at least 60+ guys and gals right here and many more who would join in if exposed to it. Yes, women are LIVE STEAMERS too.
Won't you guys join me in pushing this into a Jacksonville park? We once "almost" had the JLS club in Hanna Park, then the deal was killed in the infamous insurance crisis of the 80's.
OCKLAWAHA
tufsu1
November 20, 2009, 09:25:34 PMExactly!
And as fsu813 stated, the best way to provide input is to ATTEND a public meeting!
thelakelander
November 20, 2009, 11:57:22 PMPPS has a pretty good track record. We've featured a couple of projects they have been involved with in the past. It would be nice if they can play a larger role.
www.pps.org
sheclown
November 21, 2009, 07:46:09 AMEven though the plan is preliminary, the vision for the plan ought to be in place. For example, will the balustrades be removed to have a natural creek?
The decision to save the canal or return it to a natural creek -- has this been decided?
zoo
November 21, 2009, 07:53:16 AMHDR's project list - http://www.hdrinc.com/13/default.aspx
PPS' current project list - http://www.pps.org/info/services/current_projects/where_pps_working_today_all
thelakelander
November 21, 2009, 08:24:18 AMThe general vision seems to be to restore the park into a centralized public space that offers a diverse things to do. From what has been explained here is that the options and components of such a plan can change as more input is given.
My guess would be if enough of the community demands preservation, the city will come around. JTA did with the DT BRT plan and the city appears to be doing so with Friendship Fountain. The key is to participate early in the process of decision making. So despite what the conceptual sketches may show, don't accept them as being set in stone.
sheclown
November 21, 2009, 08:29:26 AMSo, now is the time to take on stand on preserving our Klutho Canal and its balustrades.
thelakelander
November 21, 2009, 08:31:22 AMyes.
sheclown
November 21, 2009, 08:49:20 AMDo we know if SPAR is working toward preserving the canal and its balustrades?
zoo
November 21, 2009, 08:51:08 AMOcklawaha
November 21, 2009, 08:52:14 AMVision? How about that empty space over by Jefferson? How about this?
Don't sweat the small stuff - it's for models, look at the size of the autos. Bet this would bring out every retired,active, or wanna be pilot in Florida. Radio Controlled model flight, too cool... Ok LUNICAN, go find the video of an RC landing!
OCKLAWAHA
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 08:54:43 AMSheClown.
Zoo and FSU813 are advocates of the plan, so its safe to say that SPAR is for destroying the balustrades. After all, they are historic.
Chris Farley is the one making the most sense on the entire issue, and has presented cogent, logical points about the actual issues, and is being roundly ignored by the little coterie of omniscient ophidians---or worse: patiently explained to.
Obviously SHARP is for saving them.
But really, I think the whole plan needs scrapped. The negatives so outweigh the positives.
Whats so funny is that the input of this group was sought and given prior to all the meetings and was online and available throughout.
Both the Shands and the FCCJ master plans were also available and online throughout and were disregarded completely.
The environmental information, obviously available and presented in person by Chris Farley, was disregarded.
Who was involved in this process? proton experts and lawn maintenance people?
thelakelander
November 21, 2009, 08:58:01 AM^Ock, send them to Cecil. If we're talking about the same empty space, that's where to VA Clinic is supposed to go. However, the plan should include how to intergrate a BRT station and associated retail/dining near the clinic and Shands. That's something that I would suggest not leaving JTA in charge to decide.
zoo
November 21, 2009, 09:12:23 AMThank you, Chris, for continuing to be a reasonable voice.
sheclown
November 21, 2009, 09:19:15 AMChris,
Is the plan to save the canal and the balustrades?
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 09:22:10 AMChris, I checked on the thread where our suggestions were solicited, and could not find your example of one in which the public health building should be demolished. I did find all the rest of the ideas that were ignored however.
Here is the thread: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5989.0.html
perhaps you can point out what I may have missed.
strider
November 21, 2009, 09:27:20 AMAnother note is that the efforts to save the balustrades actually began way back in 1994 or 1995 when Ed Austin was still mayor and Lisa and Mellissa wrote the grant and got the funds. While it seems the original funds were used for other worthwhile things, it is odd that we are still talking about whether to save the balustrades or not. It should be a no brainer and we should be talking about how the rest of the park will work with them in place and restored.
thelakelander
November 21, 2009, 09:29:26 AMI'm for the redevelopment of Hogans Creek as well. This is a process that should have happened years ago. While there are elements in the conceptuals I don't agree with, I know that what was presented (it looks like a quick sketch on trace paper overlayed over an aerial) was probably thrown together in a hour or two after getting some input from the stakeholders. Thus some things are completely out of scale and have not been properly addressed. This is why its important at this stage to provide as much input to the consultants as possible.
In the end, a final plan should be much more detailed. So my advice (I work in this industry) is to not get so stressed out. Even when a final is produced, there's a slim chance everything on the plan will be built exactly as shown, anyway.
an example of a preliminary plan
an example of a more finalized plan
The Hogans Creek Plan still has a way to go, so now is the time to suggest what should be included or taken out.
sheclown
November 21, 2009, 09:31:30 AMWorking to save the balustrades and the canals has to be a top priority. Anything else is just frosting on the cake.
Ocklawaha
November 21, 2009, 09:32:38 AMJust reminding them of how "in the box" the city is thinking, we could do so much more. BTW, yes BRT and STREETCAR and SKYWAY (at least to the foot of the park and an at grade connection station). Also that natural creek is going to silt up big time with the grade from 8Th to roughly Orange, the canal would probably be easier to keep swept.
Oh yeah, forgot to tell ya, the twin threads are merged.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
November 21, 2009, 09:42:56 AMSpeaking of mass transit and public spaces, here is a plan for a park in Santa Fe, NM. It is proposed around the development of a commuter rail station in a former warehouse district.
http://www.schwartzarch.com/projects/santa_fe_railyard.html
zoo
November 21, 2009, 10:05:35 AMTwo projects with big-picture similarities also worth looking at:
Indianapolis Canal Walk
http://www.indycanalwalk.org/gallery.aspx
Buffalo Bayou (Houston)
http://www.asla.org/2009awards/104.html
(** not posted as examples of design elements or themes -- it seems clear from conceptual sketches the project is not yet at the design stage)
chris farley
November 21, 2009, 11:39:06 AMThe grant that Melissa and Lisa wrote was to repair the balustrades in Confederate and to put them around the lake. There was much more in that grant request.They were not involved in the club when those funds came through, and the contamination problem had arisen. It took two geologists to convince the park that we could even turn over the soil to put in the rose arbor. That far away from the creek and where the old gasification plant once stood. The park has many problems. When the dog park issue arose we tried to put it on the lovely strip of land between the creek and Orange but again "soil no touch"
The health building situation was in my written proposal at the residents meeting at the Karpeles, I am saddened by the fact that in the early nineteeen hundreds we had 42 acres of park and it has been snitched and snitched until we are down to 25. That parking lot opposite where the Dozier apartments were is an absolute travesty, it is projects like this that have put the flood water at the heights it now achieves. Also in about 2002 the Army Corps said it would take 8 million to dredge (hate that word the creek would have to be vacuumed so as not to break the sills) the creek, but was held up by pollution - there used to be a insecticide or or such factory up stream - this i am not sure of, but it was supposed to be polluted. There there was a round table meeting in which the lady came from the Corps and said she had good news and bad news, the creek was not that polluted as to prevent dredging but the bad news was that the funds had been frozen in the credit pinch. If the Corps are back in the picture maybe that money will come back
Please do not quote the ISTEA grants unless you know specifically what was written in them, it only adds to the mire. The thing that bothers me, and I have to dig it out, Sandra Darling when our councillor got something like a $5 million allotment, through the council, for McCoys and Hogans Creek, I do not know where this money went. I gave a copy of the article to Mack, I will ask if he still has it. Those are two very large sums of money which were meant for our creek and parks.
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 11:46:31 AMThere was a plastics company upstream that contributed to the benzene contamination of the parklands, Chris.
Also, you should be able to ask the reagans about the money. Harry served on the council with Sandra and would know how and where to locate that information.
The gassification plant was not really the polluter that it has been painted to be in the community. It was only operational for a couple of decades---and potentially only 12 years--- and has not been used as a gassification plant for nearly a century.
Please do not tell people what they can or cannot discuss on these threads. If you can correct a misperception, that is just as valuable a service as announcing new information.
The parking lot is a travesty indeed, and the methods for infilling the land were even worse.
Also I think if you do some checking, you will find that the hogans creek park system was actually even larger than merely 40 acres.
Great information though, and thanks for clarifying that the written information you were referring was in fact your own written notes that you physically took to the meeting, and not the written suggestions on these forums solicited for consideration.
fsu813
November 21, 2009, 12:06:44 PMFrom what I understood, there will be parts that are retruned to a more natural state (ie, bioremediation, natural buffer zone for flooding) and parts that are not. The ballustrades would be moved further out in places to accomdate the new design. Again, from what I understood.
I do not know. I would assume they want to preserve as much historical elements as possible. You could call and ask them.
- Remember the part, a page or 2 back, when I informed you that many of your concerns had already been brought up and addressed in the various public meetings that you chose not to attend?
How someone can demosntrate that they have almost no clue about the project, but then find different ways to bash it repeatedly is quite puzzling. Wait, no it's not. SPAR had a role in making it happen, so you don't like it. You have literally no idea what information was looked at and disregarded, and what was not. Where i'm from, this is called talking out of your _ _ _.
- Ms. Farley can spot a sweet talker when she sees one. Her reputation and credibility won't rub off on you, no matter how hard you try to align yourself with her.
- Since you brought it up: Can you tell us a little more about this SHARP group that you founded? The last SHARP thread was deleted when various people became critical of thier (your) inappropriate email responses to them and posted them. Suddenly *poof*, gone.
- i support saving and restoring the orginal ballustrades as well, fyi. There's a way to go about it. Making wild guesses, incorrect assumptions, and promoting false information are not the best way to support saving the original ballustrades. Showing up the the various meetings , in person, is much more effective. See you at the next one?
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 12:12:14 PMFsu813.
I am hardly the "founder of SHARP", nor did I send you any emails.
I will be one of the charter members however. the organization supports things that I and many other people in the neighborhood believe in.
This type of lying that you constantly do on these forums is why I try as best as I can not to have any conversations with you.
Unlike you, when I agree with someone, I am not 'sweet talking' them. This is something that would only occur to someone as inexperienced and basically calculating as you are. In any case, you are certainly in no position to be able to pass judgement on either Chris Farley or myself.
Time after time, it has been demonstrated on this forum that you speak before you know what you are talking about, so I will not dignify the rest of your post with a response.
If you want constructive help on this project, then perhaps your betters should step in and prevent you from making the issue such a mass of personal attacks that it poisons the ground water?
fsu813
November 21, 2009, 12:39:35 PMCorrections & observation:
- Perhaps you should start a thread to list all the various "lies" i've told. You have my permission. I'm obviously pathological.
- Of course I didn't pass judgement on Ms. Farley?
- I speak before I know what i'm talking about? (ha) That's rich. When I am wrong about something I readily admit it. (ie, the lock system possibility). You, on the other hand, produce long-winded rants about how awful the rough draft, making all kinds of illinformed assumptions, without attending 1 meeting. Heck, I corrected half of your assertions a couple pages back already, which you've yet to acknowledge.
- I'm ok with you personally attacking me. It's so ridiculous i'm interested in what you'll come up with next.
Back to the subject....
When is the next meeting about this?
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 12:56:27 PMLast words seem to be important to you, fsu813.
Most of your input on springfield has to do with the people you don't want in the neighborhood, and the businesses you don't think should open. The rest of it has to do with 'supporting' the demolition crew at SPAR and making comments about my character. Making statements like '
Where to begin with the number of outright fabrications in that statement?
Is it your contention that Mr. Van Winkel has lost the property to the City? You said he probably won't be getting it back. Care to elaborate on this theory of yours?
What is the basis of you making the claim that Mr. Van Winkel is 'on shakey ground with the city"? First of all, what the hell does that mean? Are you making potentially libelous statemtents against Van Winkel?
You claim to have an assumption that the city doesnt consider taking the rest of the private property a big deal. What is the basis of that assumption? Were you told that? Will the city be simply 'taking the property"? Are the owners indicating that they are going to give the property to them? Were you told that there is a budget to handle acquisition of private property?
In two short sentences you managed to make at least ten false statements. And this is your idea of 'answering the issues?'
well. ok.
Not very broad in your interests, you have to admit.
But I agree, lets do get on with something a little more interesting.
Is there a next meeting?
ChriswUfGator
November 21, 2009, 01:55:37 PMSince it was mentioned, what's really up with Van Winkel anyway? That eyesore is clearly included in this plan, but it seems nobody has actually gotten his consent? Geez..
So people honestly believe he's just going to let COJ take it from him without so much as talking to a lawyer? I'm not trying to start WWIII here, but I think Stephen's got a point. That just seems unlikely to say the least. COJ may be able to get away with the demolition, citing safety reasons, but that's just the beginning since the property itself clearly has some commercial value aside from the structure.
Van Winckel will probably get a building inspector who disagrees with COJ's building inspector regarding the necessity of the demo, and they'll each hire appraisers who disagree with each other on the land's value, and they'll each hire environmental engineers who disagree with each other, etc., etc. These things drag on forever, they'll probably be fighting over it for ages. In the end COJ may wind up having to pay him at least something for his land, which may be worth more than it cost to demo the building, or at least that's what Van Winckel will argue.
And Hionides is another one. If COJ wants that, they're probably going to have to pay for it. I would hope that before anyone spends any more time and money making plans that involve privately owned properties, COJ reaches some agreement with the owners.
But even so, I believe the Park View is the only real eyesore. The other buildings are historic themselves, and would make great lofts or offices. Why destroy even more density? I don't get it. Shouldn't those be excluded?
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 02:09:55 PMhere is a graphic with the FSCJ and Shands Master Plans superimposed in scale over the hogans creek park system.
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 02:11:22 PMThey are kindof massive neighbors of the park. Not building these huge groups of people into planned use of the park would seem short sighted to say the least.
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 02:15:16 PMContinuing on the sculptural theme of southern mothers and children to make them more racially inclusive:
Adding another stature like this one to the park would take some of the exclusivity of 'confederate' park.
Not to mention a recognition of the historic Seminole and Creek Native American presence in the area
thelakelander
November 21, 2009, 02:21:51 PMTaking the gates down would help. However, that appears to have been included in the concepts so far, so that's a good thing.
fsu813, since you attended the public meeting, any idea of what has been proposed between Laura and Main or Boulevard and Pearl?
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 02:25:05 PMAlso there should be some consideration to the fact that florida weather is frequently tempestuous. There needs to be covered areas in a park this large for people to escape rain. (as well as sun)
Check out the glass arboretum in Seattle:
stephendare
November 21, 2009, 02:33:22 PMCheck out the structures of the Minnetrista Center and Oakhurst Gardens in Muncie Indiana.
http://www.minnetrista.net/index.html
My Friend Phil designed most of this center. He did the historic restorations of the Elisabeth Ball Mansion for the Oakhurst Gardens as well as the gardens and educational center. (hes a pretty interesting guy, he also designed the muncie Greenway, which is a rails to trails program for that part of the state)
Butterfly gardens, educational programs et all. its a superior experience.
fsu813
November 21, 2009, 03:58:18 PM"Is it your contention that Mr. Van Winkel has lost the property to the City? You said he probably won't be getting it back. Care to elaborate on this theory of yours?"
- No, it's my contention that the chances of him losing it are greater than him keeping it. Hence, "probably". No, I don't care to elaborate on who discussed this with me. His situation is not a secret though.
"What is the basis of you making the claim that Mr. Van Winkel is 'on shakey ground with the city"? First of all, what the hell does that mean? Are you making potentially libelous statemtents against Van Winkel?"
- The basis is hearing it form somebody that is familar with the situation. It means that he has a history of issues with this property and the city and it's touch and go whether he will end up retaining it in the end. You throw the labels of "libel" and "liar" around a lot, i've noticed.
"You claim to have an assumption that the city doesnt consider taking the rest of the private property a big deal. What is the basis of that assumption? Were you told that? Will the city be simply 'taking the property"? Are the owners indicating that they are going to give the property to them? Were you told that there is a budget to handle acquisition of private property?"
- I didn't use the words "big deal". Taking an educated guess, PPS and the park planners were given boundaries on what areas may be used for the park system. If these various private properties were off-limits or had little chance of being converted, then they wouldn't be even be considered. Just a guess.
Lake,
I'm not sure what areas you are referring to. Could you give cross streets? I don't have any special insight to this plan, just info from attended the various meetings.
thelakelander
November 21, 2009, 04:14:28 PM5 and 3 on this aerial:
Here is what they look like today:
No. 5
No. 3
zoo
November 21, 2009, 04:25:03 PMNo. 5 area will have pond returned (with preserved balustrade), as water storage is a key functional requirement for the system. Various associated recreational and beautification ideas are being considered, but will not be firmed up/designed until the design phase of the project.
No. 3 area... geez, just looking at that photo of what JEA has done with the multiple sets of pipes crossing over the Creek and through the balustrade makes me nauseous. JEA had multiple representatives at the stakeholder meetings, they toured one of the activity groups through the block, and they seemed open to some of the planning team's suggestions.
thelakelander
November 21, 2009, 04:54:05 PMThe answer to the Van Winkel situation is a short one. The consultants are under contract with COJ. Since when has COJ ever worried about private property in developing master plans?
Need a history lesson?
Exhibit 1
Peyton's Big Idea
1. A "maritime park" where Hyatt currently stands
2. A "harbor town" where River City Brewing is, despite them having a 99-year lease on site.
3. A demolished and rebuilt Landing, despite Sleiman owning the structure.
4. Taking a lane off the Main Street bridge, even though its not a local road.
Exhibit 2
Main Street Pocket Park
Only the founding members of MJ remember this one. Anyway Paul Crawford and Jack Diamond came to a MJ meeting before breaking ground on the Main Street pocket park. They tried to convince us of a plan that called for the Main Street pocket park taking up the entire block (half the block is owned by Salvation Army), a hotel going on a privately owned parking lot across the street and a land swap with the Cathedral.
In short, if COJ is paying the consultants, most of the stuff on the plans probably come from the directions of COJ, not fsu813, SPAR or any other small player in Springfield or the blogging world.
fsu813
November 21, 2009, 05:21:29 PMi'm exceptionally small =)
sheclown
November 21, 2009, 05:23:02 PMOkay, now we are getting somewhere.
Springfield has a long history of fighting the city regarding preservation issues. This is not new terrority for the community or its residents who have literally stood in front of bulldozers aimed at homes. Just because COJ wants to do something, doesn't mean that we need to stand by and watch it be done, helplessly.
Sounds like a bit of seduction here. Let us have your historic canal and we'll give you a kid's park.
And...how many times has the city, or private developers for that matter, said that they are going to tear something down and replace it with BLING... only to have a slab scab left?
tufsu1
November 22, 2009, 09:11:56 AMdo you know that HDR/PPS didn't involve Shands or FSCJ in the process?
I find it hard to believe that they weren't interviewed and/or made aware of the public meeting.
BTW....a master plan isn't set in stone...having worked on several institutional master plans, I can assure you that they can change drastically over time....and like other big-picture plans in Florida, they get updated every 5-10 years.
Dan B
November 22, 2009, 10:11:37 AMYou do have to start somewhere.
chris farley
November 22, 2009, 10:21:39 AMI believe Daryl Joseph wrote a grant for $300,000 to pay for the kids park which goes in with the dog park, he did this when it was being decided what to do with the IsTEA which had lain for about many years.
thelakelander
November 22, 2009, 12:22:58 PMSo a kid's playground is proposed for the dog park? When is it expected to be installed?
fsu813
November 22, 2009, 12:30:18 PM"do you know that HDR/PPS didn't involve Shands or FSCJ in the process?
I find it hard to believe that they weren't interviewed and/or made aware of the public meeting."
- They were notifed and invited. I know this for a fact. I believe representatives from both attended....but I can't be sure.
chris farley
November 22, 2009, 02:03:03 PMThere always has been a kids playground in that park. I believe it is to be moved to the other side and enlarged
stephendare
November 22, 2009, 02:14:47 PMTufsu.
Its not a question of whether or not they were notified.
I think its outstanding that representatives showed up (if indeed they did, I will check with a reliable source as to whether or not representatives of the organizations attended, and whether or not they were representatives that were familiar with the planning done by their own institutions)
But that is completely different from working with the existing masterplans of the two organizations.
There is no evidence that the park group produced copies of either masterplan or whether there was any forum for active discussion to complement and tie in the three plans (shands, fscj, and the park)
Being a planner, you already know this.
thelakelander
November 22, 2009, 02:32:46 PMIsn't it one filled with old equipment? Is it safe to assume that the old stuff will be replaced with a new tot lot when the move takes place?
Dan B
November 22, 2009, 02:54:48 PMThe old equipment was removed (it was just a swingset when the dog park was started, and that is now where the small dog area is).
There is a CBD grant that the city applied for that is paying for a playset to go into the area next to the basketball courts. This is something that I personally pushed very hard for. My thought on it was that a nice fenced in play area next to the dog park makes it a true family park. The kids can play on the playground, or play basketball while the 4 legged family members get to play in the dog park.
The activity that has been spurred by the dog park will become greater once there is a playground, and I believe that this equipment will be better taken care of than the equipment that was installed at Liberty and Oakland parks 3 or 4 years ago.
fsu813
November 22, 2009, 05:05:49 PMClustering the dog park, playground, and basketball court is great, i agree.
Now if we could just get an official passage to & from Confedrate Park to the Dog Park I think it would be complete (ie, prominent gates on the Westside of the dog park & Eastside of Confederate Park, with a nice cross walk in-between, connecting the two by eye & path. The PPS guy thought this was a no brainer too....).
chris farley
November 22, 2009, 05:20:26 PMIt is my understanding that the small dog park will be where the old swings were and the new playground, I think they intend to spend 300,000, will be where the engineers used to park
CS Foltz
November 23, 2009, 06:23:21 AMLet me see if I have this correctly................several Master Plans by different organizations have already been proposed or generated? Now we have a new Master Plan generated another group and this is the one? About the only thing I see that has been constant is the COJ involvement which makes me wonder just who made what and when the made it! By this I am referring to who was paid and what were they paid. To this point, the only thing that has taken place is more consulting, who I would assume did not do the "Consulting" for free! The timing of this transformation strikes me as somewhat odd also, since the Laura Street enhancements for a measly $2 Million Dollars is about to take place. That makes me wonder if the same investor group has a finger in this pie also! Supposedly COJ is in dire financial straits according to our esteemed Mayor but we have money for unneeded street improvements and consultants and special advisory groups and the money keeps flowing out of City Hall! If they had to pay for all of this out of their pockets, they might have a different tune but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I am for refurbishment of Hogans Creek, saving what Klutho did and organizing that area into something that all can enjoy......but I would like to be able to pay for it! By the way, I hate Eminent Domain to be used for anything.........can't pay market value you don't need it!
fsu813
November 23, 2009, 07:05:40 AMthe city won't be paying for Hogans Creek improvments alone. big chuncks of money will be coming from elsewhere.
sheclown
November 23, 2009, 08:25:01 AMwho's footing the bill?
thelakelander
November 23, 2009, 08:29:23 AMProbably a mix of federal and private dollars.
tufsu1
November 23, 2009, 08:38:24 AMEminent Domain requires the government entity "condemning" the property to pay fair market value...part of the reason road projects take so long is that they often involve court/arbitration and usually the property owner makes out quite well.
fsu813
December 10, 2009, 01:08:47 PMmissed this article last week:
This is a city of great potential.
It's high time to begin turning that potential into reality instead of pretty dream pictures tucked away in binders and stored on dusty shelves.
A good place to begin is Hogans Creek downtown.
Thankfully, a group of people, including City Councilman Johnny Gaffney, who represents the area, and members of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council, are doing just that.
There are 27 acres of park land surrounding the creek.
With much of the park designed in the 1920s by Henry Klutho, it once was a jewel for downtown. It has now fallen into disrepair.
Other cities would love to have such an asset downtown. We've let it sit in a shabby state for too long.
Jennifer Holbrook, a SPAR board member, talks excitedly about the possibilities for the park.
A master plan is being developed and should be completed next month. Design work could then begin.
There are hurdles to overcome.
Water and soil contamination must be cleaned up. That's a must anyway, because doing so would not only improve the creek but also the health of the St. Johns River.
Storm water issues must be dealt with and the historic assets of the park should be preserved as much as possible.
All of that can be done.
Now add new water features. Create a place for canoes and kayaks, maybe even gondolas. Add landscaping and sports amenities.
In other words, develop a park that would be a regional attraction, not just something for downtown and Springfield.
"It's an amazing opportunity to do it right for a change," Holbrook told me earlier this week.
She's right.
As always, finding the funding won't be easy, especially in these tough economic times.
But federal and state grant money should be available. Private dollars could be raised. And, like Houston is doing with its Buffalo Bayou park project, perhaps bonds financed by increased property taxes from new development the park would attract could also be used.
In fact, the Buffalo Bayou project would be a good one to learn from. Leaders there recognize that a park of this nature is as much about economic development as it is recreation.
Taking advantage of Hogans Creek and the park land there has long been a part of the "emerald necklace" concept included in the city's Downtown Master Plan.
It will take leadership and a long-term commitment, from the City Council, the Mayor's Office and those involved in the project, to go from concept to reality.
Hopefully, the pieces to accomplish that are falling into place.
As a native of San Antonio, I know what can be done with imagination and determination.
San Antonio took what was basically a ditch filled with water and turned it into an attraction that is now known throughout the world.
Hogans Creek can shine, as well.
As can the city's other areas of great potential, from the downtown riverwalks, Metropolitan Park, the Shipyards property to the JEA property on the Southbank, just to name a few.
It just takes leadership and commitment.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/ron_littlepage/2009-12-04/story/transform_hogans_creek_into_major_downtown_asset
(it's also referneced in the SPAR weekly newsletter)
north miami
December 10, 2009, 03:00:16 PMThe "Best" places were developed long ago.
That is why riverfront Downtown has been around for so long.
Let the flood of development and "beltway" spread out on in to infinity................the rest of us will turn happily 'inward' with the likes of Hogans Creek.
Ocklawaha
December 10, 2009, 04:32:43 PMMaybe so, but they'll have to do something about the sludge muffins and smell first.
OCKLAWAHA
sheclown
December 10, 2009, 07:11:11 PMIs the "Master Plan" set on removing the balustrades?
Ocklawaha
December 10, 2009, 07:22:02 PMWe also need to knock a huge hole in the JEA water plant, to join the park segments, the "Homeland Security" excuse for the GREAT WALL OF JEA, is tired. Certainly all of the danger can be contained in a much smaller fenced area, with people actually able to walk up and touch the historic building.
OCKLAWAHA
fsu813
December 10, 2009, 07:51:45 PM"Is the Master Plan set on removing the balustrades? "
- nope.
stephendare
December 13, 2009, 10:55:09 AMWell this project has a long way to go, I think.
Heres to hoping that it gets better.
mtraininjax
December 15, 2009, 05:06:17 AMStephen - Since downtown only has Met Park, and none other, perhaps the TU will mention it as part of the solution, or more likely, probably not. Met park is getting upgrades, as I walked by it on Jags Sunday. Looks like the boat slips got new power and the walkways were getting new signs and benches.
Citizens deserve both, where can you play sports downtown outside, except at the baseball or football stadiums? Our solution should be Hogan's Creek and the open space surrounding it.
chris farley
December 15, 2009, 01:17:10 PMLast week Jennifer, Kevin White, Craig Pedroni (of Pedroni's Cast Stone) and I walked the creek. Craig Pedroni is an expert and has worked on Riverside Park restoring balustrades. One problem they have is that when they put them in, the rebar was carbon steel, which is rusting and as it rusts it expends and causes cracks in the balustrade.
What was most revealing was that the tide was out and water was pouring out of Confederate Park through the huge pipe that connects the lake with the creek. This caused the creek to flow to the river and from the original little bridge the creek looked amazingly clean and was moving. Whereas, when we got to the Pearl Street Bridge the swamp and garbage like water was awful. It is a shame we cannot ask all the fire departments if they would give us a onetime rush of water from 8th Street, pump water like crazy into the creek and let the whole thing flow at least for a couple of hours. Don't think the river people would like this but it certainly would help us.
stephendare
December 15, 2009, 01:20:06 PMGreat info Chris.
(incidentally it was wonderful to see you at the Historic Church Tour)
What would a water blast do for the creek do you think?
ChriswUfGator
December 15, 2009, 02:10:04 PMThat'll just run all the garbage down into the St. Johns river, to wash right up in other places. Yeah, I guess you could flush out the creek, but that's only moving the problem from one place to another so a true cleanup and off-site disposal would really be what's needed. I wonder if Riverkeeper wouldn't be interested in getting something going on this? It is a St. Johns tributary, after all...
How bad is it anyway? I haven't seen that area of the creek in many years.
stephendare
December 15, 2009, 02:10:52 PMIs it something that could be handled with a net at the opening? something to catch all of the trash?
Karl_Pilkington
December 15, 2009, 02:12:59 PMtake a look at the photos in the MetroJax's story Chelleby's Angels, the second pick shows Hogans Creek, its pretty bad!
ChriswUfGator
December 15, 2009, 02:13:35 PMThat's a pretty good idea...
I bet on a day to day basis a lot of garbage flows out of that creek into the St. Johns. The homeless use it like a trashcan, plus drainage no doubt carries tons of garbage into it. Some kind of grate at the end of it would probably be helpful as a solution to an ongoing problem. Even after you flushed it.
ChriswUfGator
December 15, 2009, 02:18:52 PMJust looked at it. Wow, that's disgusting. Had no idea it was so bad.
Basically a giant trash can with some water in it...
chris farley
December 15, 2009, 03:52:07 PMIt could be caught with those oil booms, I think that is what they call them. They put them on the ocean like giant snakes when there is an oil spill. A one time flush would really help , some places on the creek look like the top of a giant cesspool. Actually I do not believe too much solid stuff goes into the river now but, the contamination and pollution certainly does, when there is a flood the water still does not move fast enough from the up creek to take junk away it just settles once again.
Lucasjj
December 15, 2009, 04:04:30 PMI understand there are a lot of problems facing the creek, but is there anything a group of people could do to help clean it? Would a trash pick up or something on those lines do any real good, or do other measures need to be taken before something like that is actually worth while?
north miami
December 15, 2009, 04:33:13 PMThe fairly recent joint City/Fed Corp of Engineers proposal was a comprehensive "restoration" scheme.Dropped due to funding snag.Fishweir Creek proposal seems to be drowning too 10 Duval waterways identified for needed joint City/Fed restoration.
Interesting how this epic story goes untold...
Dog Walker
December 16, 2009, 03:20:20 PMSometimes this city reminds me of a petulant, spoiled child that plays with a toy without taking care of it them tosses it aside when it is broken and goes on to another one. (Metropolitan Park?)
jcjohnpaint
June 12, 2011, 10:52:49 AMJust looking through old treads and came across this. I have never seen this concept before. Has there been any recent developments on this park proposal?
Miss Fixit
June 12, 2011, 08:46:54 PMThere is no funding for implementation of the master plan, although there are limited funds available for construction of a trail through the Hogan's Creek parks.
Construction of the Confederate Park Playground should begin soon - a contractor has been selected. I have heard an estimated completion date of September but imagine that November or December is more likely. The playground will be where the small dog park is now, with the small dog park moving to the area used by the City surveyor's office for parking.
jcjohnpaint
June 12, 2011, 10:13:24 PMthanks that is great!
north miami
June 12, 2011, 10:50:07 PMPublic Works. Storm water management.Annual fee.Millions.Duval County Tributary monitor program-Hogan Creek investments,improvements.Dana Morton.
Perhaps even FIND.
The waterways are a Downtown imperative,an element of awareness and empowerment.Downtown waterways are joined at the hip with "River" advocacy.A test of responsibility.
The waterways are reflective of malaise.Perfectly situated.
stephendare
June 12, 2011, 11:35:07 PMMiss Fixit
June 13, 2011, 06:03:50 AMThe proposed master plan is a vision plan - it is not based on reality and includes elements that will never be implemented. There are many things to like about the plan but there are also items that should be eliminated or revised.
Cleaning up Hogan's Creek should be priority one. Don't know how well used a trail running next to a ditch full of styrofoam cups, shopping carts and human waste will be. Any clean up must also include a plan for keeping the trash out in the future.
Wish I had better ideas for coming up with the millions of dollars that project will cost!
dougskiles
June 13, 2011, 06:41:03 AMIt could be done very similar to Birmingham's Railroad Park in which it was a non-profit group that led the funding effort and oversaw the construction.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-apr-birminghams-railroad-park
The non-profit got the ball rolling and the city kicked in once they saw how committed the public was to the project. If we truly want something to happen at Hogans Creek it will take a dedicated group to bring it to the forefront.
north miami
June 13, 2011, 10:38:33 AMRegardless of overlay plans,the immediate waterway is important as an established stand alone item.
In fact Hogan's Creek has seen some water quality improvement thanks to the larely unheralded City of Jacksonville Tributary Assesement program.
The pulses of trash out to the River a common feature.
Square away these once obscure waterways or skip River Advocacy.
I would think too that viable comprehensive Downtown advocacy,care and concern would naturally embrace these signature waterways.
Who knows,perhaps ignoring the waterways simply part larger Downtown malaise.
By the way, I have not yet explored Hogan's Creek.
I almost dread it- my own backyard,the Southwesterly boundary of RAP,Big Fishweir Creek is reeling from it's own nasty impacts,restoration ever so slowly lurching forward.
Good to know others have their paddle in the water so to speak- incomming District 14 Councilman Jim Love made a point to tour Hogans via kayak during the campaign.
Onward!