Shows what a city with vision can accomplish...  get it together Jacksonville.

Having lived in and owned a business in Seattle, I can't attest to it being any bigger or even that much denser than Jacksonville. 

If anyone remembers the grunge/drama movie Singles from the early 90's...that is what Matt Dilon's character was trying to do.

“Light rail was meant to be fed by people taking the bus, walking or biking,� said Rick Sheridan, spokesman for the Seattle Department of Transportation (SDOT). “It was not meant to be fed by cars.�

Marinating this creates an idea to increase the proposed Skyway extension to go all the way to the Publix in Riverside, build a station on top of the Publix building etc. That will make grocery shopping so much easier for a lot of people in Springfield, Downtown and San Marco. It will also increase shopper traffic between the Riverside Arts Market and Five Points.

huh...please explain how the current skyway gpes anywhere near the RAM?

I'm still trying to figure that one out.  RAM should have zero impact on skyway operations.

Seattle is a larger and denser urban community all the way around.  However, this should not be used as an excuse to why they can pull something rail-based off and we can't.  For every dense community (Seattle, Los Angeles, NYC, Boston, New Orleans, Philly, etc.) that has invested in rail, you'll find another that is suburban (Phoenix, Charlotte, Tacoma, Little Rock, Nashville, Kenosha, etc.) and invested also.  

Jacksonville
 - City    794,555 (13th)
 - Density    1,061.6/sq mi (409.89/km2)
 - Urban    913,125
 - Metro    1,313,228

Seattle
 - City    602,000 (US: 25th)
 - Density    7,179.4/sq mi (2,772/km2)
 - Urban    2,712,205
 - Metro    3,344,813 (US: 15th)

here are the actual numbers.  The main difference between the two areas is that there are no vast tracts of land that are completely undeveloped in seattle the way there is in jacksonville.

The actual population of Seattle is significantly less than Jacksonville's.

Also their 'metropolitan area' includes the entire cities of Tacoma and Bellevue.  This would be like claiming Orlando and Daytona as part of the Jacksonville Metropolitan area.   While the cities are closer together, trust me they are quite separate.

Seattle, unlike Jacksonville doesnt have the largest park system in America, nor does it have the wetlands and lake areas that Jacksonville has.

Having actually lived there, Seattle itself is not significantly different from Jacksonvilles populated developed areas.

As you point out in your post, the actual urban density numbers are just slightly higher than Jacksonville's, which is what I pointed out originally.

really?

There are those that have argued that Seattle should have had light rail 10+ years ago....remember, its a much bigger and denser metroplitan area than Jacksonville.

The Seattle metro. poulation is 3.3 million people....compared to our 1.3 million....and clearly their downtown areas is far more dense.

The original statement that you made, that I responded to was this:


and this:


I think we've established that the city of Seattle isnt three times larger than jacksonville, nor is it really a much bigger or denser place.  Jacksonville would be 75% of the density of Seattle, but it has 200,000 more voters that make decisions.

The pictures pretty much tell the story of what its like on the street anyways.

You are correct in that the Downtown itself is much denser and better than Jax, but we never really disagreed on that, nor are we really disagreeing now.

My point in posting is that it really is just a difference of vision.  Seattle has one.  We don't.  I think Ralph has it right.

Lake your own numbers are refuting this idea.  Jacksonville became significantly less dense after the fifties because the entire landmass of duval county was then considered as part of the density equation.

Do you seriously think that between the years 1960 and 1970 that Jacksonville radically demassified from 1960's 6,657 to 1970's figure of 690 per square mile?  That would be ludicrous.

Jacksonville's current inner city census tracts are nearly identical to the pre-consolidated city boundaries from the 1940 census. 

 

2000 Census City Population: 735,503

2000 Old City Census Tract Population: 112,753

1950 Old City Population: 204,517

Net Urban Core Loss (1950 - 2000): -91,764

2000 Census City Population Density: 735,503 / 758.7 square miles = 969

2000 Old City Census Tract Density: 112,753 / 30.2 square miles = 3,734

1950 Old City Population Density: 204,517 / 30.2 square miles = 6,772

Net Urban Core Loss (1950 - 2000): - 3,038 residents per mile

These numbers show that our urban core's population loss during the late 20th century was very similar to older industrial cities such as Detroit, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Birmingham.  These numbers also show that the Urban Core has the infrastructure in place to support twice as many residents than live there today.

As Jacksonville continues to deal with sprawl, congestion, limited road expansion funds and higher gas and energy costs, our focus on growth needs to shift back to the area that is already laid out to support higher densities.

Anyways, this is a silly diversion from the point, and I don't want to get in the typical TUFSU Lakelander Stephendare 15 page discussion straining at the eye of a gnat discussion about it.  I lived there for two years and operated a business right in the thick of it.

So, like TUFSU seemed to say in his post, you also think that Jacksonville needs to wait until it reaches seattle's density before we install rail?

Or do you think, as Ralpho and I do, that it really is just a question of vision?

Seattle has always been a larger urban community than Jacksonville.  However, I agree with the end of your overall point.  Jacksonville still needs to determine what it wants to be.  Judging from Seattle's mass transit plans, residents there have at least determined that they want efficient and effective mass transit options.  When it comes to determining a vision of what you want to be locally, population density numbers and urban area sizes of other cities should not matter.

quote]They are just denser overall.  No matter how the numbers are displayed, its a more urban community.  Nevertheless, regardless of what Seattle may be, we do ourselves an injustice by making excuses to why we can't do better.  This, I think we both can agree on.

Quote from: thelakelander on Yesterday at 04:14:49 PM
Seattle is a larger and denser urban community all the way around.  However, this should not be used as an excuse to why they can pull something rail-based off and we can't.  For every dense community (Seattle, Los Angeles, NYC, Boston, New Orleans, Philly, etc.) that has invested in rail, you'll find another that is suburban (Phoenix, Charlotte, Tacoma, Little Rock, Nashville, Kenosha, etc.) and invested also.

Just because there was a prior article doesnt make the information any more accurate.  You mentioned that you had made a point, but Im not sure what it was.

Seattle is a larger and denser urban community all the way around.  However, this should not be used as an excuse to why they can pull something rail-based off and we can't.  For every dense community (Seattle, Los Angeles, NYC, Boston, New Orleans, Philly, etc.) that has invested in rail, you'll find another that is suburban (Phoenix, Charlotte, Tacoma, Little Rock, Nashville, Kenosha, etc.) and invested also.

From the density numbers provided by TUFSU, I posted that the City of Jacksonville has 75% of the density of the City of Seattle, but it does have 200,000 more voters.  Do you disagree with this assessment?

Ever since my days as the city's public intern, I've been the go-to guy for all tasks tedious, nauseating, and mundane. That's why The Stranger asked me to spend the entirety of opening day riding the light rail. I did it for six hours. Most of what I saw on the train were people's legs, people's arms, people's screaming children, people crowing "Smooth!" "Comfy!" "Convenient!" and Sound Transit employees glaring at me as I tried to take notes. Parents were letting their children roam freely, and one climbed on my head. Later, I saw a girl simultaneously Twittering and Facebook-status-updating the journey on her iPhone. "Aren't you excited?" she asked. I smiled weakly and nodded. But she did have a point: This thing is better than buses, it gets places fast, and it takes you to locales you never knew existed. For example:

• The enormous Franz bakery sign that you can see when you get out at Sodo Station and walk around. I'd gotten out at the stadium stop and walked around there, too, but all there was to look at were warehouses, parked buses, parking lots, Safeco Field, Qwest Field, graffiti, and traffic—all of it begged me to get back on the train. Between stations, the automated-train-voice woman announced: "The next station is Sodo." Judging from her voice, she sounded well-rested and generally ready to take on the day, like a perky character in a poorly acted film. (The woman who narrates the opening of San Francisco's BART doors always sounds vaguely annoyed by something out of her control, like a fly she can hear but can't trap. Her movie is a tragedy. I like it better.) Though not as depressing as the stadium stop, the Sodo stop is an odd one, too. To your right you can see the post-office central headquarters and an Arby's. To your left: Beacon Hill. I walked around a bit, noticing the generic buildings that compose the guts of our city, the aforementioned enormous Franz bakery sign (imposing, hunger-inducing), and the terribly color-coordinated Tully's headquarters.

• The train rises over Sodo, nearly hitting the Franz bakery sign, and swoops over I-5 before jetting into a tunnel, which is where the Beacon Hill Station is: underground. After taking the elevator up (it's fast!), you can walk around and see one of the few remaining Red Apple Markets, adjacent to a Latino cultural arts center and kitty-corner from a hair salon. My memories of Red Apple involve the one that used to be near Oak Tree Cinemas, where a man once stole my mom's Honda Odyssey. For this reason, Red Apple conjures up conflicting feelings: hunger for delicious produce on one hand, fear of carjacking on the other.

• The University of Washington Consolidated Laundry Operations depot—I'm guessing they clean lab coats, athletic apparel, and Mark Emmert's dirty bed sheets—is near a Firestone tire store, both of which are under the Mount Baker Station. Across the street is Franklin High School. You'll probably want to get out here and walk around because Franklin High School looks improbably beautiful from the station. But be warned: The entire area is pedestrian-hostile. Cars zoom by, and there are few crosswalks. If you don't want to buy a tire, check out the jocks at Franklin High, or sit in a noisy Starbucks in the center of a large intersection, Mount Baker has nothing for you.

• A store that sells only car-related books. I spotted it while walking down Rainier Avenue South, near the Columbia City Station. Inside, you'll find people who need to reprogram their car's air-conditioning. When light rail's completely finished, I wonder if we'll need to worry about such things.

• A pho restaurant in a strip mall called King's Center, near the Othello station. There's no empty table, so the owner squeezes me in at a table where a 10-year-old girl is playing a game on her cell phone. We stare at each other briefly. There's a Vietnamese couple sitting next to us and a group of rowdy teenagers sitting next to them. I order a whole bunch of things I don't usually order at pho restaurants (chicken, something, vermicelli, this other thing), and it's delicious. As I walk back to the train, I pass an Ethiopian church and a refugee center. I wonder, briefly, if anyone there knows the Ethiopian man I used to tutor at Seattle Central. I think he lives near Othello. I miss him.

• South of the Othello and Rainier Beach stations (abandoned buildings, a furniture-rental store, enormous power lines, piles of dirt, a high school), the train flies through trees, over the Metro bus headquarters and the city's muddiest river, before gliding along next to I-5. We are nearing the mothership: the Tukwila International Blvd Station. Entertainment in Tukwila runs the gamut from cashing checks at Moneytree to watching freeway traffic. I wander into an Indian grocery store called Bollywood Videos & Groceries, which smells like Clorox. I briefly consider buying The Rhythms of Punjab on DVD (Indian version of Backstreet Boys). The store's owner, sensing I might not be in her shop for nonironic purposes, is appropriately hostile.

• On the train back to Westlake Center, I sit next to a more diverse group of people than I ever see in my regular life: an African-American couple from Rainier Beach, two Vietnamese women from Othello, a lesbian couple from Capitol Hill, and a Somali family from Beacon Hill. Most of them are talking to each other. Just like in a real city.