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About the Factory
The 165,000-sqaure foot assembly plant, located at 1901 Hill Street and designed by internationally recognized industrial architect Albert Kahn, open its doors in 1924. It's known for having a pair of 800' skylight panels that provide natural light into the industrial plant below. At one point, Ford employed over 800 workers who spent their time manufacturing 200 Model-T and Model A cars and trucks a day. Ford shut down this operation in the late 1960's. Today, the factory has made the "Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings" list.
The Exterior
A view of the assembly plant's exterior in 1948.
Exterior images of today's remains.
Inside Ford: The Offices
The office complex sparkled in 1948.
Today's remains
This space was once a product showroom. The remaining details give the impression that this was once a very grand space.
Inside Ford: The Plant
The assembly line in 1948.
You don't get a true appreciation for the size of this space until you walk inside of it. Tractor Trailers are being stored on the east end of the building.
Each bay is wide enough to store a truck trailer. 
Railroad sidings still exist inside the complex.
These doors once opened for railcars.
Still here? This space (image above) looked completely different in 1948 (image below).
In rememberance of the old Jacksonville assembly plant, the Ford Motor Company donated several pictures and an old Model-T that are now a part of the permanent exhibits at MOSH.
As of today, a portion of the building is used by Wood-Hopkins Contracting Co. for storage. The ultimate future of this 23 acre historic waterfront site sits in limbo. In 2001, there were plans to turn the building into a mixed use development featuring 144 live/work lofts, 53,000 square feet of commercial space along with a 125-slip marina.
After those plans fell through, the JEDC and Port Authority considered converting the abandoned complex into a $20 million cruise ship terminal. Unfortunately, it was decided that a new terminal should be built east of the Dames Point Bridge, in order to attract ships that may be taller than the bridge's clearance allows.
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billy
January 29, 2008, 06:50:48 AMIt would be a wondrous thing, to see that building renovated and illuminated at night.
Ford once had several dozen of these plants around the country.
NJ to JAX WHAT DID I DO?
January 29, 2008, 08:24:27 AMIf you went to an old abandoned place like this in Jersey, you would always get the feeling you were gonna find a body or two......and hey sometimes you would!...it was creepy even looking at these photos.
billy
January 29, 2008, 08:59:35 AMThe slab is supported by concrete piers and pile caps. Those are supported by groups of wooden piles.
In other words, there's a crawl space below the slab.
thelakelander
January 29, 2008, 09:02:29 AMThere was a lot of light in the place, due to all the windows and skylights it had. I've explored a good number of abandoned buildings and I'd say the Park View Inn was one of the creepiest in Jax.
Inside The Park View Inn: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/344/117/
hanjin1
January 29, 2008, 09:05:26 AMThis would have been awesome for the the farmers market.
second_pancake
January 29, 2008, 09:10:10 AMWith all that open space and those great skylights, I'd like to see a commercial only complex that included an open-air market. What's the one in San Franciso? You know, on the bay where it's all open, but when you walk inside there are several little shops and booths kind of like kiosks or something and then some closed off restaurants. That would really be cool...kind of a urban mall of sorts. We could even give it a name like, The Plant, or The Shoppes at F.M. CAP
willydenn
January 29, 2008, 07:26:14 PMI agree with Pancake. If done right correctly it would put the Landing to shame.
Coolyfett
January 30, 2008, 10:07:57 PMThis looks like it is in Talleyrand...But I can't tell exactly. This is my first time seeing this building. Good work MJ.C
Steve
January 30, 2008, 10:24:13 PMIf you want to see the building, cross the Mathews Bridge from Arlington, and as you cross the top of the span, look down to your right (ideally when someone else is driving)
Ocklawaha
January 30, 2008, 10:25:11 PMThe old pier is slowly giving way at the East end. Now they have stored 45 foot semi trailers just inside the wall and a few feet beyond the "DANGER KEEP OUT" part of the caving pier. INTENTIONAL? (your call).
The place is nearly under the West approach to the Matthews Bridge and a couple of blocks up a narrow, ugly industrial lane.
Will the new bridge bring it down? Will someone realize it's value? Could we create an entry grand enough to bring people that far from the activity centers of Stadium, Metropolitan Park etc??
Dead Body? In Jacksonville? You are kidding right NJtoJax? Hell Lake and I counted at least 24 of them in there, besides the one that chased us out of the old vault.
The vault was cool. The upstairs bathrooms were cool too, what a hell of a place to stick a bathroom.
I don't think commercial value would ever fly until retail/office overtakes the bend in the river at the Matthews in 4045. Until then, what comes to mind (if it doesn't all fall into the river) is maritime or transportation museum. It's sure big enough to hold (at the same time) a mock Ford Assembly line, a complete train, A B-25, 747 and the Graf Zeppelin, Trolley Barns or displays and Naval, Merchant Marine displays and ships on 3 sides. Not unlike PS-4 Annie Lytle, IF (a HUGE IF) anything this big ever developed in Jacksonville, and the Skyway reached the Stadium district, that or Streetcar might be an ideal way to tie it to downtown. (BTW, there once was an East Bay and a Talleyrand Streetcar route.)
Ocklawaha
Coolyfett
January 30, 2008, 11:15:50 PMThanks Ock! Good Stuff. I love reading your post man. You have much knowledge.
hank
January 31, 2008, 10:01:03 AMThese kinds of Industrial Era relics are so different from the paper-mache buildings we have nowadays that it really is a shame that something like this might go unused or even be allowed to fall apart. The light looks amazing! OKL also hinted at the need for retail/office (ie urban stuff) to wrap the bend to make this area viable. There are lots of great examples of industrial building being converted for modern uses but its hard to ask people to live/work in a shipping yard. Will Jax ever be able to occupy that great river-front property for HUMAN use!!?? Another model is something like DIA Beacon (http://www.diabeacon.org/) that is completely disconnected from the nearest city's (NY) urban core but, by having great art and some visionary supporters, they were able to revive an old factory and even some of the local community. There is of course rail transportation right there - imagine that: rail spreading the wealth!
Timkin
February 02, 2008, 04:36:35 PMMassive building! It would be neat to see this and many of the other old unused buildings be refurbished in to something practical. I would hope theyd rather renovate than let the structure fall into the river. That would cost alot more to clean up.
Derweissehai
February 15, 2008, 03:37:16 PMQuestion is how do you actually get in there and shoot some decent photos without getting into trouble. WOuld love to have some photos of the whole place before they decide to just let it go. I do hope they would allow the public to vist since it's historic site. Also who do you contact for something like that?
Ocklawaha
February 15, 2008, 07:53:40 PMOne can do a search through the property appraisers office or the Court House. Another possible site is the JEDC on line site, with the GIS mapping under services. As the scale of the map gets larger, their are more and more "Toys" to play with, layers and other cool details that one can select, So you could go from map to detailed block map, to even more detailed lot map, flood plain layers, then with a click, go to photo image, and lot Id and owner...
Another way is shoot the photos from public access. A sidewalk or road in front, back or side often gives great views of the whole place.
Also, walk right in, past the NO TRESPASSING sign to the nearest gatehouse, guard or office you see. Go in and tell them THE TRUTH... Just learn to add or delete to suit your needs... For example "Javier" is a shoe sales clerk at a local Wal Mart Store, he might get transferred to the stock room with a 10 cent raise. He's a happy man and loves to photograph old buildings.
Javier walks up to a guard and asks to see the plant manager... "Oh Mr. Plant isn't in today, but young J.D. is." So we wait for J. D. and he finally shows up. Stand up, walk up and shake his hand. "J. D. I work with the Wal Mart Corporation out of Bentonville, Arkansas, and am moving into their transportation and logistics systems division soon. I was driving by and saw your rail siding and thought it looked like a perfect model for something I have been telling them about... Would you mind if I took a couple of snap shots of the building, and it's relation to the railroad?"
Next, is Frank. Frank is a homeless guy that works enough to buy the next bottle of dinner and loves to shoot film for his laptop, plugged in behind the Prime Osbourne, under the bridge in a tent! Frank was once big on Computers and loves his building photos. He shows up at the gate which is fenced, guarded and photographed. "Hi I'm Frank, I study photography and have some ideas for new digital images of our City Buildings. Forgive my appearance but we've been working with the homeless all day and I've been asked to photograph anyplace that looks like it might develop a problem with these sort of people. Do y'all have a problem with people in the property?
Well, you get the idea, just fit the conversation to the problem and tackle it like your life or job depends on it. If they give permission with strings attached, "Okay, but stay away from XXX or don't photograph the trucks or... " RESPECT THEIR WISHES.
In any and all cases, "TAKE NOTHING BUT PICTURES AND LEAVE NOTHING BUT FOOTPRINTS...."
Ockalwaha
leahfu
August 31, 2008, 05:04:12 PMYour pictures took my breath away. I've always looked at that while riding over the Mathew's(Matthews?) Bridge and wondered what it was. Thankyou SO MUCH for sharing
mborum
September 21, 2008, 05:30:57 PMMy family owned--or at least rented--this facility in the 1970s and early 1980s. My grandfather's business, the Otis C. Borum Boat company, or just Borum Boats, manufactured hundreds of fibreglas boats during that time with a staff of a few dozen workers (including my dad, who was the lead draftsman).
I remember visiting this building as a kid and my brother and I would have so much fun exploring the parts of it that Granddad didn't use. Back in the 70s it wasn't in such bad repair since Ford had only shut it down a few years prior. Borum Boats used the showroom space and the manufacturing floor and kept it all pretty well-maintained. I used to be so proud to see our name on the huge "BORUM BOATS, INC." sign that used to be face out towards the Matthews Bridge every time we drove over.
Anyway, it's a terrible shame that it has become so ruined in the years since we gave it up. I no longer live in Jacksonville, but a space like this one is the ideal type of space for a public art gallery or exhibition hall for special events. It's too bad the Talleyrand area in general is so industrial that it isn't very appealing to the general public. Still, I'd love to see the building restored (at least partially) and preserved for a more useful purpose.
stjr
July 29, 2009, 07:42:31 PMPictures courtesy of Old Arlington Inc. web site at http://oldarlington.org/GP-CP-FordPlant01.php :
Keith-N-Jax
July 29, 2009, 07:58:28 PMDoubt it. This place is isolated and cut off from everything. The Landing is in a prime location with access views to freindship fountain, three bridges, and most of the southbank. Beautiful at night.
Sportmotor
July 29, 2009, 08:02:42 PMI got about 50+ pictures of my time exploring that, that was much fun
Omarvelous09
July 29, 2009, 08:13:21 PMI'd love to see an aquarium, or some kind of public attraction....but doubt if anything ever happens with it.
BridgeTroll
July 30, 2009, 08:26:13 AMCheck out the oil or fuel pollution coming from the plant...
Dog Walker
July 30, 2009, 08:47:05 AMWas the assembly plant built on the riverfront because the parts came in by barge? I presume that the assembled trucks went out by rail or under their own power. Were other Ford assembly plants also built on the water?
My father was in his teens during Prohibition and lived just off Tallyrand. He told stories of brewing up homemade wine, putting the bottles in a red wagon and selling it to the workers at this plant during their lunch break. He bought his first, very used, car with the proceeds.
Overstreet
July 30, 2009, 09:05:43 AMI know of some due diligence investigation into turning this into loft apartments, but I think it died. It is just too burried into the Talleyrand industrial area.
ChriswUfGator
July 30, 2009, 12:11:34 PMYeah that's the thing, because of it's location I can't imagine anybody wanting to live there. The whole area is heavy industrial. If the entire zone were tackled and converted at once, that might work, but I can't see anybody buying an apartment next to factories and shipping centers.
904Scars
August 17, 2009, 11:03:09 AMI personally think it would make a great Jax / North FL historical museum. Throw some old planes from the airfield, some old trains from the old station, and some old Fords from the plant along with thousands of photos and any and all historical items from Jax. Maybe a section devoted to the fire etc etc. Would make a great tourist attraction (though we don't get much, we always complain there is nothing for them to do).
billy
January 03, 2010, 05:05:45 PMWhat does the current Folio article say might happen with the property?
I don't have access to the article.
Ocklawaha
January 03, 2010, 09:44:20 PMBeing one of the explorers, my opinion is that it will be torn down. It's certainly not what I would want and the building is grand indeed, but it is buried. No matter what the "urban" use, the buyer or developer would have to buy out everything in front of it all the way to Talleyrand. There would almost have to be redevelopment of the Commodore Point area for Urban, Retail and Residential uses. At one time the streetcar line had 3 routes to Talleyrand, putting this in the middle of a historical area.
The negatives are that it is FAR from the downtown core, not walkable, hidden, not easily accessable, in a very industrially blighted neighborhood, along side a major expressway bridge, and MAYBE in the path of bridge or tunnel construction...
Other then that, it's beautiful.
OCKLAWAHA
thelakelander
January 03, 2010, 11:31:38 PMIts got river frontage, rail access and surrounded by industrial warehousing and maritime uses. My prediction is that if it doesn't eventually fall down, it will be filled with an industrial/maritime related use. Btw, I attended a public workshop last month where the owners requested a land use change back to industrial (a decade or so ago the land use was changed to allow for lofts).
thelakelander
January 06, 2010, 01:53:49 PMThis email was just sent to Metro Jacksonville and I'd thought I'd share the link. The image is pretty impressive.
billy
January 06, 2010, 01:57:36 PMIncredible photo.
I wonder what the wooden structure to the south was?
untarded
January 06, 2010, 01:59:27 PMFantastic image!!
Dog Walker
January 06, 2010, 03:07:52 PMWow! I had always heard that the plant was for Model T & A pickup trucks. Obviously not! If the plant opened in 1928, then my father was 18 or 19 when he started selling homemade wine to the workers. Naughty boy!
BridgeTroll
January 06, 2010, 03:57:35 PMVery cool!
BridgeTroll
January 06, 2010, 04:06:57 PMModel T
Model A
stjr
January 06, 2010, 04:39:25 PMGreat photo. It brings to life an old building and shows just how great these buildings could look if restored to their "like new" condition. Lot's of potential. Would be criminal to lose it. I wonder if Ford would have any interest in partnering in its preservation. Maybe a "Ford Museum -South" for part of the building. Would be a great marketing tool.
ftrosset
January 22, 2010, 05:12:44 PMDoes anyone know who currently owns this building? I can not find it on the GIS map, the lot is there, but no building number or anything like that. I am interested in possibly buying the building but have had a hard time finding much info about it.
Thank you
stjr
January 23, 2010, 12:17:44 AMftrosset, welcome to MJ.
Per the property tax rolls, the owner is:
HILL STREET LLC
P O BOX 1851
BAINBRIDGE, GA 39818
Property Site Address currently is shown as:
1900 WAMBOLT ST
Jacksonville FL 32202
Official Record Book/Page
10149-01373
I guess Wambolt St. was once called Hill Street since the MJ article says that's the historic address and the property owner references the same name.
According to the deed, Hill Street is a Florida corporation. Per Florida's Division of Corporations:
I guess if you can't find a phone number, you can send a letter to one of the addresses above and hope they answer.
Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
billy
January 23, 2010, 01:00:12 AMI have some information if you are interested...
billy
January 23, 2010, 01:08:14 AMare you associated with UNF?
longhaul
March 15, 2010, 09:29:09 PMAccording to Jacksonville’s Future Land Use Map (FLUM) Amendment (2/5/10):
“In 1999, William Stephenson, on behalf the Rowe Corporation, filed a land use amendment for the subject site to change its land use designation from WD/WR to GDC in order to accommodate a mixed use project including residential lofts. The PUD for the subject site in 1999 was never filed, and the mixed use project was never developed. As such, the subject site has been out of compliance with the current industrial use of the property, having a land use amendment attempts to remedy the compliance issue and return the subject site to its original WD/WR land use category”
The Planning Commission has recommended approval of this “re-change” in land use on 2/5/10.
http://citycirc.coj.net/coj/COJbillDetail.asp?F=2010-0016\Reports
longhaul
April 12, 2010, 10:17:53 PMFriday, April 9, 2010
UF students design cruise terminal for old Ford site
Jacksonville Business Journal - by Christian Conte Staff Writer
Read more: UF students design cruise terminal for old Ford site - Jacksonville Business Journal:
The former Ford assembly plant that sits at the base of the Mathews Bridge could one day be a cruise ship terminal and destination port, according to a study conducted by a group of students at the University of Florida.
A group of 16 students in the university’s College of Design, Construction and Planning department of interior design created design possibilities for the 86-year-old building that include 60,000 square feet of cruise ship terminal space, 50,000 square feet of boutique hotel space, 10,000 square feet of restaurant/lounge space and 40,000 square feet of what the students termed “wild card” space that included a variety of possible uses including a cinema, convention space and art display space.
Preliminary cost estimates for the project from cruise ship consultants are around $30 million.
The Jacksonville Port Authority is considering moving the cruise terminal at Dames Point to Mayport or two other unnamed sites east of the Dames Point Bridge. The authority needs a new terminal because the site of the present cruise terminal at Dames Point will become home to Hanjin Shipping Co.’s new container terminal.
About 80 percent of major cruise line ships can’t pass under Dames Point bridge and nearby wires, said port authority CEO Rick Ferrin.
Sonny Redmond, one of the partners in the investment group that owns the property, Hill Street LLC, said he hopes to use the students’ design suggestions as the basis for a future development plan for the site, but not unless he earns the support of the community for the idea.
“In order to have a project like this work, you have to have 100 percent support from all the stakeholders,” Redmond said.
The 165,000-square-foot facility is part of a 35-acre tract that Hill Street owns that stretches from the base of the bridge to Talleyrand Avenue. The facility was built for the Ford Motor Co. in 1924-25. It was used as an assembly plant until the mid-1930s and then for storage and shipping through the 1950s. Although the property has been through a succession of owners until Hill Street acquired it in 2001, it has continued to be leased out to various industrial users over the years.
Redmond said the group didn’t have any specific development plans for the property when it bought it, but when the president of the Florida chapter of the nonprofit group DOCOMOMO, which advocates for preserving historic structures, asked Assistant Professor Marty Hylton to have his students review the project as a possible cruise ship terminal, he decided to take him up on the offer.
The idea has already gotten the attention of some in the cruise ship industry. Mike Greve, president of the Miami cruise ship development consultation company Global Destinations, said he likes the site because of its history, because it is an existing building that would reduce the capital expense of construction and because it’s a Downtown site.
The owner of the property now plans to contract with Global Destinations to have the site evaluated and graded for its potential as a cruise ship terminal site. If it grades well, Redmond said the next step would be approaching the city about the idea.
Read more: UF students design cruise terminal for old Ford site - Jacksonville Business Journal:
Ocklawaha
April 13, 2010, 01:08:55 AMA few period views...
Easy to see that if the surrounding ugly industrial wasteland was cleared for a vintage style mixed use park/retail/residential district, it would be a better historical fit then the mess that is there today.
The old assembly line running full tilt.
looking roughly Northeast, from the Southwest corner, one can see the old railroad siding that runs down the north side of the building, another siding runs through the large open door on the left side of the front of the building visible in this shot. Either or BOTH could easily be reactivated and with overhead electric catenary installed serve as the "CRUISE SHIP TERMINUS" of the revived "JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY" streetcar line.
Railroad cars in the background date this photo as fairly close to WWII, wood car construction with outside steel bracing was often termed "War Emergency Construction" and could date to WWI or II, however the trucks the cars are riding on put them in the more modern era. Also automobile cars changed around the time of WWII from those with small door to the larger "drive in" doors seen here. The next step were special boxcars with end doors much like modern "autorack cars". The cars were driven in and mechanically tilted on end to pack a maximum number per rail car. Beyond this in modern era we see the introduction of speciality cars built just for the auto trade.
The Jacksonville Work Force showing off their newly won production award from Ford.
Announced on MAY 2, 1924, here are some of the spec's on the FORD plant...
PLANTS IN THE MAY 2 ANNOUNCEMENT, ALL NEW OR EXPANDED: PLANT/DAILY CAPACITY/EMPLOYEES/
St Paul/750 represents a 150% capacity expansion
Chicago/600 represents a 140% capacity expansion
Charlotte/300 Brand new plant/1200 employees
Memphis/300 represents a 200% capacity expansion
Kansas City/250 added for a total capacity of 500
Jacksonville/150 Brand new plant/600 employees
Oklahoma City/50 represents a 33% capacity expansion total daily capacity of 200
All plants follow the same basic design guidelines, single level with extensive glass in walls, roof for improved lighting, ventilation and ease of material handling. All plants operated with conveyors, with freight shipments entering on one side, and parts progressing across sub-assembly area's to the final assembly line. All plants include in addition to offices and showrooms, have attractive "car delivery rooms", and attractive "quarters," for both male and female drivers who come with the dealers to drive cars back to the dealerships. All buildings will be complimenting architecturally designed with fine landscaping.
CHARLOTTE'S new plant on 72 acres, 240,800 sq ft,
MEMPHIS expanded plant on 34 acres, same capabilities as Charlotte
JACKSONVILLE'S new plant is 200' x 560' feet, for 115,000 sq ft production area. The plant was modified in 1926 to produce 200 cars a day, and under Ford's design the original building was modified adding 240' on the dock without loss of a single day of production.
All plants have their own electric plant, with steam turbine generators, completely self sufficient power and light. Energy for the production line was electricity supplied by a Ford designed generator station. Powered by steam heated by fuel oil and used water filtered from the river. The steam was also used to heat the paint drying ovens.
Only Memphis and Jacksonville will have water as well as rail transport available. All plants have rail service and Memphis has 900 feet on the Mississippi and Jacksonville 1,400 feet on the St. Johns River.
OCKLAWAHA
billy
April 13, 2010, 06:46:03 AMThere is one in Richmond California .
hanjin1
April 13, 2010, 08:41:08 AMi thought they wanted to move the cruise ship terminal to mayport because the newer cruise ships were too big for the bridges we have. i guess if it were at the ford plant we could have the smaller ones still come through. either way i would love to see something done with those buildings
Sportmotor
April 13, 2010, 05:32:30 PMSame here, like an implosion
Ocklawaha
April 13, 2010, 11:03:20 PMThank's Billy, yes, my list was just the group of new or expanded plants that were announced on my birthday. The Richmond plant built it's last FORD in 1953 and shut it's doors in 1956. It was subject of a recent MJ article on how they are bringing back "OUR" (look-alike) FORD plant:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-mar-ford-assembly-plant-comes-back-to-life
Hope you enjoy it.
As for you Sportmotor, sure we'll blow it up, hell you can even light the fuse provided you are standing inside of the plant when you do!
OCKLAWAHA
Sportmotor
April 13, 2010, 11:37:58 PMPffft you wish you could be so lucky for that to happen
thelakelander
April 16, 2010, 05:19:55 PMYou can't read the entire article unless you have a subscription to the Jax Biz Journal but this idea is DOA due to the height of the Dames Point Bridge.
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/04/19/story11.html
CS Foltz
April 16, 2010, 09:24:30 PMLike JPA really knows what they are doing! Just like anything else in Jacksonville no vision! You go in on low tide and clear the bridge! Jacksonville would not get a first tier ship anyway, got no proven record of use or cruisers! That means smaller and so freaking what..............small enough to go under the Dames Point Bridge at low tide and then to the base of the Mathews to the new "Cruise Terminal"! Oops...Vescor does not own the old Ford assembly plant so they had better hurry!
stjr
April 18, 2010, 10:58:38 PMCity leaders were told this would happen one day if they built the Dames Point Bridge at its current height but they were so anxious to line the pockets of land developers on the Northside, that they rammed the bridge through on a schedule and at a cost within their budget rather than do it right and build it higher as requested by the Jacksonville Shipyards and others at the time.
The same thinking in Jax is what gets us such "winning" and poorly planned projects as the Courthouse fiasco, unnecessary roads like 9B and the Outer Beltway over commuter rail and streetcars, and the user-less and useless $ky-high-way. All about short term gains for the vested interests over the long term interests of our community at large. Until this way of thinking changes, Jax will always perform below its true potential.
CS Foltz
April 19, 2010, 06:40:38 AMstjr........until this Administration and all of their people running things are no longer in office, it won't happen! We have Idiots running things that don't know squat about the right way to get things down and are just interested in lining their pockets or their buddies pockets! No vision, no plan and no funding to get there! Is it 2011 yet...........maybe we can start a recall now?
tufsu1
April 19, 2010, 08:02:05 AMNot saying I disagree with you, but remember when some people said the Dames Point Bridge and JTB were unnecessary?
Truth is that few people could have predicted 20 years ago the explosion in cruising....and that there would be ships that held over 5,000 people....plus, Jax. wasn't in the cruise business at the time....so imagine the citizen outcry of "wasteful spending" if there was extra cost for making the bridge higher.
stjr
April 19, 2010, 07:41:40 PMAaaahh....Tufsu, but people did say the ENTIRE bridge was a waste of money at the time since it was supposed to carry a rather expensive toll that would have killed most traffic on it. Even with the switch to no tolls, the bridge went years with little traffic as developers found out their imagined "pot of gold" wasn't so easy to cash in on as they thought.
In fact, since the bridge couldn't support its costs with tolls, they had to bring the cost of the bridge down since it was going to be free. To do this, they whacked down the height, port and shipyards be damned. In this town, ROADS RULE over trains, ships, and everything else.
Predicting an explosion in cruising wasn't necessary. There were staunch advocates from the port and maritime interests to raise the bridge for existing freight and shipyard business. Further, Jax has always coveted cruise ships and this wasn't unimagined at the time either. Even then, there was a noticeable trend toward ever larger ships of all kinds and concerns about accommodating such WERE vociferously brought up. The real truth is developers designed the bridge and Jax lived for the day, not the future, as is so often done here, and now the future is here and we are paying, once again, for the GOB network and our shortsightedness.
tufsu1
April 20, 2010, 08:01:28 AMso you admit that people in the 80's thought the Dames Point bridge was a "waste of money"....wonder what a poll of the community would reveal now?
For many people, things expected to be needed in the future seem to be a waste of money in the present.
So, back to polling....how many people in Jacksonville feel that rail transit is something we need in the future and are willing to spend money for it today....my guess is less than 25%....heck, I'd bet that less than half of the community thinks we'll ever need rail transit in Jax.
stjr
April 20, 2010, 12:43:02 PMIT WAS A WASTE OF MONEY Tufsu ... at the time.
Why?
-It wasn't connected to the full 9A/I-295 loop for another 20 years or so.
-There was no traffic on it for over a decade which proves it wasn't needed at the time (and that is WITHOUT tolls).
-It was originally proposed with a high toll which would have resulted in even less traffic than what went over it for free, showing it was even more useless at the time.
-The only ones who pushed for it were developers, not the general population. In fact, if you asked Arlington residents at the time, they would have preferred to spend the money replacing or adding to the Matthews Bridge (they might still say the same thing today!).
-We spent hundreds of millions to build a permanent limitation on our port, one of our largest economic engines, and probably a lot more valuable to the community than the Dames Point Bridge.
Bottom line, at a minimum, Dames Point was built a good 15 to 20 years before its time. Given other pressing priorities in the community, that's not a "business like" way to do projects. No business would do a major capital project that far in advance. And, as always, given LIMITED resources, was this the best use of our taxpayer money versus other projects? This is the question that seems to never be factored into decisions in this City regarding road building and other transportation projects.
tufsu1
April 20, 2010, 02:55:19 PMgot to disagree with you there....construction on the bridge started in 1985 and it opened in 1989...and based on the T-U article from last year, it cost $117 million then...or $436 million today (calculate that inflation factor!)
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-03-10/story/dames_point_bridge_reaches_20-year_mark
Also, with reduced traffic all over due to high gas prices more than 66,000 cars used the bridge every day in 2008....so I highly doubt it was built 15-20 years before its time.
stjr
April 20, 2010, 07:05:45 PMExtending 9A from the bridge to I-95 and ultimately to I-295 is what has enabled traffic to climb on Dames Point. Before that, it was basically a bridge to feed traffic to Regency Square. (How ironic that 9A may actually be helping to fuel Regency Square's demise as people speed by it to the Avenues and SJTC.) Now it's growing due to the urban sprawl it's enabled in the swamps and forests of the Northside. Let's see: 2008 minus 1989 = 19 years. That is well within the 15 to 20 year range I suggested.
But, once again, Tufsu, you digress. The real issue is would we chose to spend $436 million (or 500+ million or more if we built it to the proper height?) then, or now, for this bridge versus countless other options such as a new Mathews Bridge, mass transit light and heavy rail, etc. ? Now, maybe, maybe not. But, in 1989, I don't think this was the best choice by a long shot.
CS Foltz
April 20, 2010, 07:45:46 PMstju...............I am with you on this one! This was not the best choice in 1989 by any means! Just one more dollar in the GOB network pockets and once again the public get hung out to dry!
Lunican
September 27, 2010, 01:29:29 PMEthylene
September 28, 2010, 12:36:06 PMLunican, thanks for posting this announcement. I'm on the list! I thought I was already on the DOCOMOMO mailing list anyway but I heard it here first and indicated that in my request to Richard Shieldhouse. Thanks MJ!
jaguarjody
October 08, 2010, 02:47:09 PMOur company is located inside this building. We manufacture pallets. It is an interesting place to work! The windows are long gone but the open area where they were keep the building cool in the summer yet shade it from the sun.
jaguarjody
October 08, 2010, 02:49:09 PMOur company is located inside this building. We manufacture pallets. It is an interesting place to work! The windows are long gone but the open area where they were keep the building cool in the summer yet shade it from the sun.
Ernest Street
October 08, 2010, 07:00:11 PMSo...security guards will keep the public out? Is this some kind of blanket insurance policy/waiver that only covers 50 people?
NavyGuyAN
June 22, 2011, 09:26:48 PMSo it been 9 months since any one has reply to this post...is the building still sitting vacant downtown or have they decided to do something with it?
thelakelander
June 22, 2011, 09:34:32 PMIt appears that it houses a couple of small industrial companies. There's a pallet company and a barge operator on site. I've also heard rumors of a small shipyard company from Green Cove Springs considering relocating to the Ford site. Nevertheless, the building is still in pretty bad shape.
billy
June 22, 2011, 09:50:27 PMWould the shipyard company use the building, or just the yard?
Timkin
June 23, 2011, 03:35:08 AMI have never visited the Ford plant ( would love to sometime) but on the Matthews Bridge going Westbound into the City, it is visually obvious that the Bulkhead is collapsing. That alone looks like pretty dangerous and costly to fix.
As with all of our remaining landmarks, I hope one day the Ford Plant will be renovated for some use.