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Ten Reasons to Save Fire Station Five

History is the conscience of our society. Those who fail to understand the past are condemned to repeat its errors. Fire Station No. 5 has been an intergal part of our community since 1910, but now it is on the chopping block for another parking lot. Here are 10 reasons why it should remain right where it is!

Published November 5, 2007 in Urban Issues      143 Comments    Open printer friendly version of this article Print Article


feature

1. Fire Station No. 5 is the last remaining historic building on Riverside Avenue in Brooklyn.  In fact, the recent Riverside Avenue reconstruction project was designed to preserve the building.


2. Historic buildings can not be replaced. We have neither the money or the skills to recreate the historic houses and buildings that are already here.


3. Fire Station No. 5 has a character and scale that modern buildings often lack. Architects in the late 20th century abandoned the traditions of building and often created sterile, unpleasant boxes. Buildings, such as the fire station, predate the car and have details you can appreciate as you walk by. Historic buildings have a scale that is comfortable for people on foot rather than people in cars.

Riverside Avenue Fire Station Number 5

The Station may not be the Taj Mahal, but it is definitely a unique part of our ever disappearing historic architectural and cultural heritage. 




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143 Comments

Skot David Wilson

November 05, 2007, 07:09:40 PM
Beautiful work! Thanks for the effort!
LUZ is on the 6th. at City Council, AS IS them trying to waive the historic protection of Annie Lytle, which I love the transit station idea for.
I'll keep saying it, when we form as one coalition, supporting each other's individual concerns, and keep them there until 2 or 3 am every meeting, maybe then they will start to listen if for no other reason than to get home to sleep.....
We can order pizza and have meetings and discussions and all find creative ways to support and help each other.
Let's see...
3 minutes time twenty people is over an hour.... five issues comes out to like six hours....
Talk about forcing capitulation!
And with general comments????
Yeah, about 3 am meeting ends seems about right.

jeh1980

November 06, 2007, 04:02:16 AM
Man! Its amazing how we are limiting ourselves by being jealous over other vibrant cities like Toronto because we thought that they kept their history alive while making room for fresh new stuff while we murmur and complain about the so-called "ever disappearing architectural history" and fearing about another pocket park (not that I'm a supporter of pocket parks). We all due respect, but its just not cool how we look at things. We do need to save our history but I would like to see more new high rises. How is the office market in downtown? In my opinion, it would be better for us to build a fresh new 40 story office tower only to be filled half empty rather than having another pocket park. I say we should keep fire station five where it is! ::)

Skot David Wilson

November 06, 2007, 04:44:15 AM
I think I can answer for the writer as well when I say Jax is an example of how to screw up. Many other cities do better, and a few do worse. The problem here is that money and developers do whatever they want to a great degree, our mass transit sucks ass, our education system is a failure (just think of every 19 and 20 year old in town, now picture 4 out of 10 without a high school education), crime is everywhere, and the town has no real sense of community except for a small minority.
Some of us think we can do better.
And there are examples out there of how it can be done, and work well.
I say we at least try...

thelakelander

November 06, 2007, 05:42:29 AM
By the way, if the station comes down, it won't be for a new building.  From what I've been told, it would come down so Fidelity can create a new driveway into their complex that lines up with the Forest Street/Riverside Avenue intersection.

raheem942

November 06, 2007, 11:34:17 AM
well i support saveing it what if theres a really big fire or terist attack whos gonna save us

MWisdom

November 07, 2007, 07:53:39 AM
I work in the area of the firestation and see no real reason why it should be destroyed to make room for a pocket park or driveway.  To date I have never had aproblem with the existing traffic configuration and kind of like the firehouse as it is, where it is.

As a piece of history the firehouse should be retained.  It is the single building with character among monolithic corporate structures.  If the city wishes to close the house, perhaps it could be converted to a restaurant space with outdoor lawn seating behind it.  That would provide a much needed new place for corporate employees to dine, an evening destination dining spot in an area that will soon pull in more evening traffic, and a unique conversation point for the entire city to be proud of.

The building itself may not an architectural marvel, but it is noteworthy and deserves to be saved.  With the proper planning and some entreprenaurial spirit, it could be repurposed into an exciting destination with visually pleasing greenspace.

Skot David Wilson

November 07, 2007, 10:53:58 AM
At LUZ last night 988 was withfrawn so Glorious can redefine the historic boundary as the building itself plus a 12 foot buffer to the North and East of the building itself.
The South and West are to be to the existing curbline.
This means Fidelity can do with the rest of the property what they wish.
I see mixed use, museum and safety teaching center where the office and upstarirs are, and maybe a cold-cut sandwich shop and interior seating inside.
Fidelity knew it was historic when they got the building, so they can't complain if it gets a historic designation
YOU NEED TO GET OUT AND SUPPORT THIS. IF YOU AGREE THAT IT NEEDS TO BE SAVED, THEN EMAIL COUNCIL AND FIDELITY AND PEYTON AND SHOW UP AT COUNCIL MEETINGS TO SPEAK.
Anyone can speak, but who will act!
988 will be reintroduced with the new boundaries shortly, maybe next week!
Call Glorious and I to find out
skot
781-9473

thelakelander

November 07, 2007, 11:05:37 AM
Keep up the good work.

fsu813

December 06, 2009, 06:44:33 PM
Jacksonville must move Fire Station 5 or demolish it

If Jacksonville leaders don’t come up with a plan to move old Fire Station No. 5 in the next three months, the nearly century-old building will succumb to the wrecking ball.

This deadline was inevitable, city and preservation leaders said Friday — part of a 2005 land swap between the city and Fidelity National Financial.

Fidelity notified the city last week  of its plans to demolish the building on Riverside Avenue and, according to the 2005 agreement, the city has three months to put a plan together to relocate it.

At least one advocate of saving the three-story brick structure says the looming deadline may jump-start efforts to get a deal done.

But the city doesn’t have a location for the building, or any money earmarked to pay for the move, said Misty Skipper, spokeswoman for Mayor John Peyton.

Moving the building would cost about $600,000, according to city estimates done last year, and renovations could bring the tab to $2 million.

As part of the swap, Fidelity built a riverfront park and gave the city more land for the Northbank Riverwalk. In return, Fidelity obtained more land to expand its Riverside Avenue headquarters.

Fidelity doesn’t have any immediate plans for the fire station property, the company’s attorney, Paul Harden, said.

The Fire Department left the station in May 2008, moving about a mile away to a $2 million facility on Forest Street.

Today, more windows in the old firehouse are filled with plywood than glass.

The building is too big to fit under a slew of overpasses and bridges, so, unless the building is split in half, it would be restricted to the Brooklyn neighborhood where it now sits vacant.

Jerry Spinks, president of the Jacksonville Historical Society, said the old firehouse is key to the historical identity of the neighborhood.

Built in 1910, it is on a list of Jacksonville’s 12 most endangered historic buildings. It qualifies for local and national historic registries, but Peyton was against seeking the designation in 2007 for fear of breaking the agreement with Fidelity.

If a future owner was granted the designation, tax credits are available to supplement renovation costs, Spinks said.

The city has been in several discussions about the building over the years, but has never been able to reach a deal, Skipper said.

Spinks contends the building, once moved, could be a good fit for a business looking for a signature building that would be easily recognized by the public.

“If you and I were there, we wouldn’t have to tell many people how to find our building,” he said.




http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-06/story/jacksonville_must_move_fire_station_5_or_demolish_it

thelakelander

December 06, 2009, 07:36:26 PM
Move it across the street to the proposed Brooklyn Central Park.

Charles Hunter

December 06, 2009, 07:57:59 PM
Is there enough publicly owned land for that move?  My impression is that there isn't much more than the retention pond publicly owned.  Is the fenced off site next to the sandwich shop big enough?  Doesn't look like it to me, but I'm terrible at judging size.

thelakelander

December 06, 2009, 08:13:28 PM
I'd have to take a look at the property appraiser's maps.  If there isn't, there should be a ton of other COJ owned sites downtown.  Not that it really matters though.  We may be living in the last days of the seeing the historic fire station in one piece.

sandyshoes

December 06, 2009, 08:49:09 PM
It would be neat if our Fairgrounds had an Historic Jacksonville area, like the Clay County fairgrounds with their "Old Florida" village.  It's comprised of several century-old buildings that have been moved there.  Might there be room on A. Philip Randolph, near Merrill House / Old St. Andrews?  Metro Park?  Convention Center?  Brooklyn's good, too. 

stjr

December 06, 2009, 09:09:00 PM
As mentioned before, it should be moved across the street to a Brooklyn property and become the flagship store and corporate HQ's (with perhaps the addition of a complimentary structure) of Firehouse Subs.  I believe Brooklyn may also fall within the Enterprise and/or Empowerment zones qualifying for added incentives.

Steve Joost on the the City Council is an executive with them.  Maybe he could put 2 + 2 together and make this happen.  It would be a grand slam for them and Jax.  A corporate icon and Jax tourist attraction.  MJ should interview him for a comment.

If Fidelity has no immediate plans, they may be just trying to get the City to move and would grant added time if a real plan and schedule was developed.

Once again, a lack of vision and leadership in this City!

fsu813

December 06, 2009, 10:16:40 PM
putting it next to the Fire Museum would also be great.....but it seems it can't travel that far.

Charles Hunter

December 06, 2009, 10:27:16 PM
could they move it down to the river, and barge it to Metro Park / Fire Museum?  Houses have been moved that way.

mtraininjax

December 07, 2009, 09:08:25 AM
I agree with Charles, barge it down to the fire museum.

Captain Zissou

December 07, 2009, 10:13:25 AM
The firehouse subs idea is something I have been advocating for years.  It really would be a move that would solidify them as one of our great corporate citizens.  I would also switch back from Larry's (I switched away from firehouse in May and have already earned frequent customer discounts at my new home, I'm a big sub guy) if they did this.  There has to be somewhere in Brooklyn with room for this.

Otherwise, adding it to the fireman museum area would be cool and add another signature piece to met park.

vicupstate

December 07, 2009, 12:48:20 PM
could they move it down to the river, and barge it to Metro Park / Fire Museum?  Houses have been moved that way.

Would it fit under the three bridges necessary (Acosta, Fuller Warren, Main St)?  I'm thinking no.

However, the Firehouse subs idea is killer.  It would take vision and leadership to pull off.  Someone would have to pull the deal together with Fidelity, Firehouse, coj all on broad, maybe even other parties too.   Ok....... maybe I need to put down the crack pipe. 

 

stjr

December 07, 2009, 11:01:17 PM
Re: Firehouse Subs - how many thousands of employees work for the Fidelity Companies, BCBS, EverBank and tenants, St. Joe and tenants, Haskell, YMCA, and Florida T-U, not to mention all the Riverside Avenue and riverwalk traffic - that all could come by for a sub sandwich?  Not like there are any restaurants fronting Riverside Ave outside of the office buildings.  And, within a block of interchanges with I-95 and I-10.

A license to print money?

thelakelander

December 07, 2009, 11:17:43 PM
could they move it down to the river, and barge it to Metro Park / Fire Museum?  Houses have been moved that way.

Would it fit under the three bridges necessary (Acosta, Fuller Warren, Main St)?  I'm thinking no.

However, the Firehouse subs idea is killer.  It would take vision and leadership to pull off.  Someone would have to pull the deal together with Fidelity, Firehouse, coj all on broad, maybe even other parties too.   Ok....... maybe I need to put down the crack pipe.

It definitely would fit under the Main Street bridge and should be able to fit under the Acosta with no problem.  It would not have to go under the Fuller Warren.

FDOT also owns a chunk of the dirt lot directly across the street, next to Johnny's.  Its excess land from the Riverside Avenue widening.  So if nothing else could be found, perhaps they could move it directly across the street to the SW corner of Riverside & Forest?

lindab

December 08, 2009, 05:48:15 AM
Great idea. Brooklyn needs something to give it a presence.

Bativac

December 08, 2009, 01:18:51 PM
I was sad when the city quit using this building as a firehouse because I knew it meant its days were numbered. I'd love for this building to be saved but if the commenters on News4jax.com represent a cross-section of the city's populace, there's almost zero support for trying to save the building (at least, if the city has to pay for it).

I was born and raised here, but I've lived in many different places and have never encountered people so ignorant of their past, and so willing to bulldoze it, as those in my hometown. Not that the old firehouse is some great historic artifact, but people's reaction to the question "demolish it or save it?" seems indicative of the state-of-mind of most Jacksonville residents...

vicupstate

December 08, 2009, 03:32:13 PM
^^ Indeed.

To give some perspective, there use to be 50 mansions lining the very same street that this station is on (Riverside Avenue).  Only two survive today.  If that collection had been preserved, it could have put Jacksonville in the same league as New Orleans, Savannah and Charleston, with the tourism and positive image that would flow from that.  This city is so blind some times.   

thelakelander

December 08, 2009, 04:26:16 PM
Sometimes?

JaxNative68

December 08, 2009, 05:03:15 PM
I thought those mansions were destroyed in the great fire and that whole stretch of land was used as a debris dumping ground during the downtown clean up after the fire.

The city did make a deal with Fidelity in swapping land.  Fidelity has lived up to their end of the deal by building the pocket park by the river and deeding the land to the city.  If the city were to back out now by not giving them the land where the fire station sits, then I imagine they would have to pay fidelity a pretty penny for the river front property the park sits on.

Plans I have seen show a stretch of retail shops to be located on the north side of Forest St between the pocket park and Riverside Ave where the current fenced in surface lot is.  The fire station was to fall to give way to the realignment of Forest St.  The city was trying to make it the Gateway to the city from I-10 and I-95.  There is no reason why the realignment couldn't take place on the existing parking lot and the new retail be place behind the fire station and incorporated the fire station into it.

With the retail market the way it is in that area, I don't see that project taking off anytime soon, I can't imagine Fidelity is in any rush to build it, which will give the city the chance to let the building sit uncared for and rot like they do with all of their uninhabited building.  Then they can condemn it and tear it down, claiming it is in the best interest of the citizen's safety . . . like we haven’t seen that one before.

thelakelander

December 08, 2009, 05:13:48 PM
I thought those mansions were destroyed in the great fire and that whole stretch of land was used as a debris dumping ground during the downtown clean up after the fire.

The great fire did not burn anything south of McCoys Creek.  However, those buildings did fall to the Great dynamite and bull dozer over a half century later.

JaxNative68

December 08, 2009, 05:15:13 PM
thanks for the correction, I had been led to believe otherwise, until now that is.

vicupstate

December 08, 2009, 05:37:37 PM
Sometimes?

touche'

mtraininjax

December 10, 2009, 12:13:55 AM
The fire station is not destined to live in Brooklyn, all its fire fighters deserted it for new diggs down the road, and the landlord wants it gone, why leave it in Brooklyn where no one wants it? Does Brooklyn really need another boarded up building? Did we learn nothing from the Brewster Hospital?

Barge it down under Acosta and Main and give it a good home next to the old Fire Museum. Soon we will have a graveyard of old buildings no one wanted.

vicupstate

December 10, 2009, 07:44:11 AM
mtrain,

NO ONE wants to see it boarded up.  Brooklyn would be the logistically easiest and thus cheapest location, so it is a 1st or 2nd choice.   Or do you prefer to see vacent weed fields in Brooklyn instead?

Metro Park is a good option too, though.

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 10:07:32 AM
Quote
NO ONE wants to see it boarded up.  Brooklyn would be the logistically easiest and thus cheapest location, so it is a 1st or 2nd choice.   Or do you prefer to see vacent weed fields in Brooklyn instead?

Great, what does Brooklyn have to offer right now? Weeds, retention ponds? Move it and let it sit and deteriorate? All City Leaders should be removed from office if that happens.

Move it where it can be a part of Kids Campus or tied into another EXISTING fire station. How hard is this? Use the building or tear it down. It makes no sense to move it and let it sit. Move it over to Brewster if possible, but use it somewhere. Don't let it sit in the deplorable condition its in right now, and only getting worse.

Springfielder

December 11, 2009, 10:30:03 AM
I would support the idea of either moving it via the river or to that lot, but of course, that would make sense and we're talking about a city that continues to destroy it's historical buildings...let's hope that somehow, someway, there could suddenly be a light go on with those who are making this decision.

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 10:39:49 AM
Quote
NO ONE wants to see it boarded up.  Brooklyn would be the logistically easiest and thus cheapest location, so it is a 1st or 2nd choice.   Or do you prefer to see vacent weed fields in Brooklyn instead?

Great, what does Brooklyn have to offer right now? Weeds, retention ponds? Move it and let it sit and deteriorate? All City Leaders should be removed from office if that happens.

Brooklyn also is the home of BCBS, Fidelity, Everbank, St. Joe, Haskell and the TU.  Moving it directly across the street (cuts down on moving expenses) and issue an RFP (eliminates need for city to renovate it) for the thing.  It would be a pretty desirable location because its at the main entrance to DT from I-10/95 which is also the central point for several office buildings along Riverside Ave.  In addition, it would have direct frontage to the proposed streetcar line.

vicupstate

December 11, 2009, 10:42:59 AM
Quote
NO ONE wants to see it boarded up.  Brooklyn would be the logistically easiest and thus cheapest location, so it is a 1st or 2nd choice.   Or do you prefer to see vacent weed fields in Brooklyn instead?

Great, what does Brooklyn have to offer right now? Weeds, retention ponds? Move it and let it sit and deteriorate? All City Leaders should be removed from office if that happens.

Move it where it can be a part of Kids Campus or tied into another EXISTING fire station. How hard is this? Use the building or tear it down. It makes no sense to move it and let it sit. Move it over to Brewster if possible, but use it somewhere. Don't let it sit in the deplorable condition its in right now, and only getting worse.

AGAIN, no one wants to see it boarded up in ANY location, but it could be moved for probably less than 75-100K within Brooklyn.  Move it and sell it to the highest bidder that will occupy it with two years.   Hell, for that matter, put city offices in it.  The point is, do you SAVE your history or do you DESTROY it.  That is the question.  

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 12:05:38 PM
Lake - No one is even biting at using Brewster, why should the city count on a candidate for this? Move it where it gets used, Kids Campus. By the time you move it, MOST of your cost is spent anyway, so picking it up and moving it is a cost ANYONE will have to absorb, so move it where it will be used wisest and that is not across the street next to the retention ponds and wastelands.

It would be used immediately down at Kids Park, as the City could put overflow offices in there, immediately. Why would the city move offices out to Brooklyn? Special Events has offices at Kids Park. Problem solved.

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 12:19:06 PM
Lake - No one is even biting at using Brewster, why should the city count on a candidate for this?

Location, location, location.  What is Brewster located around?  That abandoned section of LaVilla does not have the traffic count, visibility or dense daytime office population surrounding it that the intersection of Forest and Riverside does.

Quote
Move it where it gets used, Kids Campus. By the time you move it, MOST of your cost is spent anyway, so picking it up and moving it is a cost ANYONE will have to absorb, so move it where it will be used wisest and that is not across the street next to the retention ponds and wastelands.

You forgot about renovation costs.  Issuing an RFP for the private sector to take it eliminates renovation costs from the taxpayer's hands.  A move to Kids Kampus saves the building, but the taxpayer absorbs moving, renovation and long term annual maintenance expenses.  Also, the city has plans to convert the retention pond across the street into a public park. 

Quote
It would be used immediately down at Kids Park, as the City could put overflow offices in there, immediately. Why would the city move offices out to Brooklyn? Special Events has offices at Kids Park. Problem solved.

Kids Kampus is pretty isolated.  Other than saving the structure, you won't get much benefit out of if out there, like you would selling it.  Move, get rid of it and get it on the tax rolls.  No need for the city hanging on to it long term.

Captain Zissou

December 11, 2009, 12:26:55 PM
Mtrain? Why are you so obsessed with sticking this between a playground and an under utilized public space???

Have you ever been to Brooklyn??  It houses some of the city's largest companies.  I'd give a low ball wager of 2,000 employees within a half mile.  Yes, there are 3 empty lots on the north side of riverside ave..... Look SOUTH!

xian1118

December 11, 2009, 01:30:49 PM
There are probably dozens of other buildings in the urban core/Riverside area that are not only more historically significant but would also be economically feasible and appreciated. Adaptive reuse is more successful with higher density, and you can see the density created by BCBS's riverfront parking lot next door. The city should focus on getting the urban core renovation projects completed before trying to spend thousands to save a 30 year old building. The site is historic - there should be a memorial - but the building was completely renovated in the 70's without the original architectural elements.

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 01:47:50 PM
Brooklyn is a part of the urban core.

vicupstate

December 11, 2009, 01:55:41 PM
It does not have to be an either or proposition. If the city expects the private sector to save history, and it should, then it must do it's part with it's own buildings.  The '70's renovation could be 'un-done' as part of the renovation if desired.

Does anyone have pictures of the original appearance?

There is an old Fire Station next to Burrito Gallery (I think there is one building in between) that has been converted into a residence.  I have been inside it, and it is Southern Living-worthy.  It was listed for $1.5 mm not that long ago. I don't know if it sold or if so for how much.

    

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 01:57:53 PM
Kids Kampus Isolated? Why, because you say it is? Ever seen the Special Events quarters there? Cramped and stepping all over each other. They could use the space of another building and could store their equipment in the caverns of the fire station.

In case no one here has realized, commerical spaces are not flying out the windows. Leave it in Brooklyn to turn to dust or move it where the City could immediately get good use from it. This is an easy solution. If Brooklyn had more going on in growth, it would be an easier sell, but the empty wasteland there right now continues to collect dust and weeds. There is no reason to leave it there.

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 01:59:42 PM
Quote
There is an old Fire Station next to Burrito Gallery (I think there is one building in between) that has been converted into a residence.  I have been inside it, and it is Southern Living-worthy.  It was listed for $1.5 mm not that long ago. I don't know if it sold or if so for how much.

It is still on the market. It was converted to a private residence. It along with everything in real estate is considered negotiable. List price is 1.295 right now.

Wanna buy it?

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 02:03:44 PM
Quote
Location, location, location.  What is Brewster located around?  That abandoned section of LaVilla does not have the traffic count, visibility or dense daytime office population surrounding it that the intersection of Forest and Riverside does.

Lake - Have you driven down Monroe? Uh, Brewster is down the street from the new Medical complex, a number of law offices and mixed use commercial space. Is it St. Johns Town Center? No, but its a far cry from the desolate picture you paint of Lavilla. Monroe turns off of 95 as well, so its not like Brewster is in the middle of nowhere.

Oh, and by the way, Brewster is ready for occupancy, FS 5 is still boarded up. Big difference.

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 02:12:36 PM
Kids Kampus Isolated? Why, because you say it is? Ever seen the Special Events quarters there? Cramped and stepping all over each other. They could use the space of another building and could store their equipment in the caverns of the fire station.

Not me, its the map.  That entire site is pretty isolated from DT's everyday activities.  

Quote
In case no one here has realized, commerical spaces are not flying out the windows.

The city's budget is also not flowing with milk and honey.  Its going to be a hard enough sell to justify spending any public money moving the building due to a shortsighted land swap deal in the first place.  Shoot for taxpayers to support a building restoration on top of that, just for history's sake, and it will be rubble sooner rather than later.

Quote
Leave it in Brooklyn to turn to dust or move it where the City could immediately get good use from it. This is an easy solution. If Brooklyn had more going on in growth, it would be an easier sell, but the empty wasteland there right now continues to collect dust and weeds. There is no reason to leave it there.

In reality, if placing a bet on whether this thing survives, I'd put my money on it being torn down.  Its just my opinion, but the easiest and most cost efficient way for this thing to survive is to relocate it nearby within Brooklyn, which would still give it a chance of qualifying for federal historic tax credits.  

sandyshoes

December 11, 2009, 02:16:30 PM
I hope some kind soul will go snap some good photos inside and out before anything happens...just so we have something to remember it by.  It's not sounding very hopeful.

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 02:19:56 PM
Quote
Location, location, location.  What is Brewster located around?  That abandoned section of LaVilla does not have the traffic count, visibility or dense daytime office population surrounding it that the intersection of Forest and Riverside does.

Lake - Have you driven down Monroe? Uh, Brewster is down the street from the new Medical complex, a number of law offices and mixed use commercial space. Is it St. Johns Town Center? No, but its a far cry from the desolate picture you paint of Lavilla. Monroe turns off of 95 as well, so its not like Brewster is in the middle of nowhere.

Oh, and by the way, Brewster is ready for occupancy, FS 5 is still boarded up. Big difference.

Its pretty silly to compare Brewster's location with the intersection of Forest and Riverside.  

A. Two six lane roads and a full interchange to two interstates vs a oneway street with a Northbound I-95 off ramp.  

B. The towers of BCBS, Everbank and Fidelity as immediate neighbors vs Ted Pappas' two story jail like office building and a small church.  

C. A block away from the riverfront vs. the center of what's left of LaVilla.  

D. In short, not comparable.

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 02:21:40 PM
Quote
Not me, its the map.  That entire site is pretty isolated from DT's everyday activities.  


The city's budget is also not flowing with milk and honey.  Its going to be a hard enough sell to justify spending any public money moving the building due to a shortsighted land swap deal in the first place.  Shoot for taxpayers to support a building restoration on top of that, just for history's sake, and it will be rubble sooner rather than later.

In reality, if placing a bet on whether this thing survives, I'd put my money on it being torn down.  Its just my opinion, but the easiest and most cost efficient way for this thing to survive is to relocate it nearby within Brooklyn, which would still give it a chance of qualifying for federal historic tax credits.  

Kids Kampus has COJ Special Events offices there as well. Check them out some time, they have no room in the same building that has the restrooms in it. This is where all the carts are stored for special events.

Sure the City's budget is challenged, but is it better to bulldoze the building? I know how you loved to see Farah tear down the dump just south of their building, which had little to no historical value, let along a Fire Station.


Federal historic tax credits could be applied for at Kids Campus as well. We can ask Joel at the City if you are interested.

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 02:25:08 PM
Quote
Its pretty silly to compare Brewster's location with the intersection of Forest and Riverside. 

A. Two six lane roads and a full interchange to two interstates vs a oneway street with a Northbound I-95 off ramp. 

B. The towers of BCBS, Everbank and Fidelity as immediate neighbors vs Ted Pappas' two story jail like office building and a small church. 

C. A block away from the riverfront vs. the center of what's left of LaVilla. 

D. In short, not comparable.

I think its silly to debate the entire issue, all I wanted to do was show you that there is MORE LIFE around Brewster for people to use a commercial structure than there are in Brooklyn. Ask anyone in the Everbank Building if they would move to FS 5 on the corner of Forrest and Riverside? Ask Fidelity or BCBSF if they'll move? You'd get laughed out of their offices. There is nothing going on in Brooklyn to warrant leaving this structure there with hope that it can become part of the commercial space. Lavilla has life in commercial spaces, and that was my point about Brewster.


There is no life in Brooklyn for a 2-story commercial building. Period.

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 02:39:42 PM
Quote
I think its silly to debate the entire issue,

I agree 100%


Quote
all I wanted to do was show you that there is MORE LIFE around Brewster for people to use a commercial structure than there are in Brooklyn.

I don't agree, but we're all entitled to our opinions.

Quote
Ask anyone in the Everbank Building if they would move to FS 5 on the corner of Forrest and Riverside? Ask Fidelity or BCBSF if they'll move? You'd get laughed out of their offices.

I agree 100%.  However, why ask them such a silly question?  My guess is that FS 5 would be better off being used to house a business that served the major companies located nearby. Sort of like Johnny's Deli next door.  Think restaurant (Firehouse Subs maybe?), pharmacy, bookstore, etc.  Not corporate relocation.

Quote
There is nothing going on in Brooklyn to warrant leaving this structure there with hope that it can become part of the commercial space. Lavilla has life in commercial spaces, and that was my point about Brewster.

There is no life in Brooklyn for a 2-story commercial building. Period.

Okay.  Disagree that Brooklyn has no market, but okay. Nevertheless, don't limit yourself to commercial only.  Mixed-use would be more realistic and more in line with the small adjacent two story buildings along Edison Ave.

vicupstate

December 11, 2009, 02:47:37 PM
Mtrian, Tens of millions of dollars in development was propsed for the Brooklyn portion of Riverside Ave. before the economy tanked. The only way that Brooklyn can have no value, is to think that the recession is permanant.   

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 03:33:31 PM
People, there is no place to move FS 5 in Brooklyn that has mixed use going on right now. Where do you propose moving it where there is hustle and bustle today? There is MIXED-USE going on NOW in Lavilla, a need for the building in Kids Campus. There is no life in Brooklyn, right now, today for FS 5.

The clock is ticking and Fidelity wants to tear it down. In order to move it, you have to have a need/use for it, otherwise its no better than the Genovar hall rotting on Ashley Street.

Lake - I agree with you, I think it will be torn down, because no one in the City can take a stand and put together a worthwhile plan. The difference in costs are relatively low whether you move it 50 feet or half a mile, but one thing is for sure, it will be torn down if its not moved.

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 05:08:57 PM
Quote
People, there is no place to move FS 5 in Brooklyn that has mixed use going on right now. Where do you propose moving it where there is hustle and bustle today? There is MIXED-USE going on NOW in Lavilla, a need for the building in Kids Campus. There is no life in Brooklyn, right now, today for FS 5.

My suggestion was directly across the street from its current site.  Its already more lively than the quiet stretch of Monroe where Brewster now sits.



There is no reason that dirt lot can't resemble a scene like this with Fire Station 5 as a part of it.






mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 05:15:50 PM
Quote
My suggestion was directly across the street from its current site.  Its already more lively than the quiet stretch of Monroe where Brewster now sits.

Lake - My issue is not about where its more lively, its really about where it can be used best, right now. It could work there across the street, but drive it a few more blocks to Lavilla where Mixed use is already in place, and getting ready for the courthouse. This building would/could be used for law offices. Why not move it where it can get the most care as soon as possible?

Brooklyn is a long way off from the renaissance we all want to happen there. It will, but no one has yet put a shovel in the dirt across from FS 5. Why wait, when its going on now near the courthouse?

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 05:21:02 PM
In the end, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.  I believe the market along Riverside Avenue is already ripe for a mixed-use project to take advantage of the existing built in surrounding office population.  Thus, I also believe that its viable to keep Fire Station 5 in Brooklyn, if the right site is chosen.

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 05:23:18 PM
Lake - Being RIPE and being RIGHT are 2 different things. Shovels are not in the ground with the RIPE solution, where as with the RIGHT solution, they are building it as we speak.

When Brooklyn grows up and gets a shovel in the ground, it will be the RIGHT location for it, till then we can agree to disagree.

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 05:25:10 PM
Whatever you say. ;D

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 05:27:23 PM
I agree, throwing up the white flag....

thelakelander

December 11, 2009, 05:46:11 PM
No, I've made my point.  I'm resting my case.

mtraininjax

December 11, 2009, 06:17:26 PM
Whatever you say.  ;D

Lunican

December 11, 2009, 07:24:32 PM
Moving it to LaVilla would require getting it up and over the railroad tracks.

mtraininjax

December 15, 2009, 04:20:49 AM
Lake - Did you know that the area you would "like" to move FS 5 is actually fenced in by FDOT? IT would appear to be FDOT land, not private land.

What should happen, in my mind, would be to offer Fidelity a 2-5 year break on their energy through JEA to have them pay to move it and renovate the building off their property. Its a win-win for all, Fidelity gets good PR, we get to keep the building and it gets renovated.

How could it happen? The City is looking to give the steel mill in Baldwin a tax break on energy consumption and to use the JEA to allow it to happen. It has been done before, with Anchor Glass, so its not new, and is easy for the Mayor and his administration to get behind.

Dog Walker

December 16, 2009, 03:04:48 PM
Can someone explain to me why Fidelity wants to tear it down now when they have no immediate plans for the land that it sits on?

I keep looking at it and thinking what a great building and location for a high end, business restaurant. Hey, Fidelity, rather than having a bare piece of pavement, you could be getting RENT!

JaxNative68

December 16, 2009, 04:12:39 PM
The city is the one's that wants the building gone.  the city's plans are to extend the new forest street expansion on the west side of riverside ave across riverside ave to the pocket park.  the city had plans on making this the new gateway to the city from I-10 & I-95.  The land Fidelity owned and traded to the city was where the river front pocket park sit now, built at Fidelity's expense.  They traded the land for a parcel that is adjacent to their new 8 story building where their new retention pond is located.  As I understand it from my associations with Fidelity is that city still owns the land.

All the talk about locating a restaurant or buisness there is nuts with the expense it would take to renovate and convert.  Especially when you have vacant office/retail/restaurant space across the street in the EverBank Plaza that would be far more cost effective to move into.  Not to mention the parking garage that is attached to that building.  Unfortunately the ground floor of the EverBank Plaza sits empty due to there isn't a strong evening market place in that location.  You can try to tell me otherwise with fabricated data, but the fact the vacant space has sat vacant for 2+ years tells me otherwise.

thelakelander

December 16, 2009, 04:57:28 PM
Everbank's retail spaces have other issues, especially if we're talking about the garage.  A decent specialty retail space needs about 70' depth and 20 - 25' width (based off experience of designing shopping centers and working with chain retail companies).  Something, like a pharmacy or major chain will require additional design considerations before they ink a deal.  I'd be suprised if Everbank's garage retail depths are any more than 30'.  With that type of design, depending on what the lease rate may be, its a pretty hard sell.  Anyway, as far as retail/dining goes, how is Johnny's doing across the street?

stjr

December 16, 2009, 05:12:55 PM
In this area, lacking substantial pedestrian traffic, retail spaces in Everbank would not be as street friendly as a free standing building on Riverside with an obvious dedicated parking lot.  Who wants to park in a multilevel garage to get a bite to eat?  And, some, right or wrong, may associate a garage with PAY parking and just avoid it altogether.

The trick is to attract the area office workers, the neighborhood residents, AND the drive-thru visitors.  Across the street would be a viable solution and worth the extra costs for a superior result.  By the way, Two Doors Down, around the corner at Forest and Park, seems to be doing a great business.

JaxNative68

December 16, 2009, 09:05:55 PM
EBP is a triple net space, which is an expensive undertaking if your the first generation tenant moving in, which drives the prospective tenants away in the end.  Many designs have been done for both the under garage and under tower retail, but in the end the deal breaker was always the initial build-out cost.  The tenants always felt there wouldn't be enough of a diner/after hours crowd to make the numbers work.  By the way parking in the garage is free.

The building owners should probably get off their wallets and give better incentives to move in, presently, if I heard right, the $/sf build-out allowance is ridiculously low.  Give a larger allowance would be better than sitting on empty space.

Also the under garage retail was never intended in the original designs, it was pushed on the building owners by DRC.

tayana42

January 15, 2010, 12:29:52 AM
You guys need to clarify some things for me please.  Am I misinformed about the moving cost of a building of this size: isn't the cost dramatically higher with every additional block?  Removing electrical, phone, and cable lines and then reinstalling, police for traffic control, etc.  Then there is the cost of a foundation, updating wiring, hvac, insulation, etc.  BUT given the structure might be free, and that it has charisma, would it work out financially.  As to moving to Metropolitan Park, the Acosta bridge vertical clearance at mean high water is 65 ft which should be adequate; main street is a lift bridge so no problem there. The cost to get the building on a barge, the barge and tug cost, and getting it ashore sounds expensive.  Too expensive?
Just askin'.

Dog Walker

January 15, 2010, 01:05:00 PM
Tayana,  The truth is that we are all whistling in the dark, trying to come up with some way, no matter how wacky to save a historic building.  In all probability the city, while spending a few million dollars to gussy up Metropolitan Park, will say that saving Station 5 is too expensive and will tear it down.  The leaders of this city are completely tone deaf to historic preservation and its' advantages.

Kay

January 15, 2010, 03:29:31 PM
The best place to move Fire Station #5 is somewhere else in Brooklyn.  It would be cost prohibitive to move it under bridges, etc.  However, it will not cost more to move it one block or six blocks.  The estimate for moving it is $300,000 but that has not been firmed up yet. 

There is a Fernandina contractor interested in moving his business to Brooklyn and he'd like the building for his HQ.  It is a win/win as we'd be saving a building and creating jobs in Brooklyn. 

CS Foltz

January 15, 2010, 03:30:24 PM
tanya42.....everything that Dog Walker posted plus 65' is no where near high enough at high tide.......low tide on something less that 200' but longer than that, depends on what it is designed for, could pose problems trying to transit!

CS Foltz

January 15, 2010, 03:33:07 PM
kay............that actually makes sense! Since the City has seen fit to give Vescor $34.5 Million dollars , a lousy 300K should be well within its budget! I would rather see something recycled than torn down especially Fire House 5!

mtraininjax

January 17, 2010, 10:59:45 PM
Quote
There is a Fernandina contractor interested in moving his business to Brooklyn

Is this right in line with Cameron Kuhn wanting to build condos downtown? How about all the Vestcor/Landmar issues? I say the days of being interested begin with a million dollar bond to see if they are serious, after all money talks and BS walks. Too much BS still out there. City can put out an RFP/RFQ, and mandate that all interested parties would have to have some serious bonds involved.

Otherwise, knock it down. The city still cannot even get Brewster rented and that that is in a better location. The city has a poor record of maintaining buildings and the people it had maintain them, Bill Watson, Ed Ball Building messes come to mind.

Steve

January 18, 2010, 12:38:25 AM
Online Petition to save Fire Station #5.  I know recently there has been some petition issues in other neighborhoods, but the text of this one is clear as day:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/3/help-save-old-fire-station-no-5

It takes 30 seconds to sign.

thelakelander

April 19, 2010, 05:40:38 PM
Doesn't look good for the old fire station.

Quote
Jacksonville turns over deed to old firehouse to company

By Matt Galnor

If the old Fire Station No. 5 is going to avoid demolition, a developer will have to work a deal with Fidelity National Financial - not Jacksonville City Hall.

The city turned over building's deed to the Fortune 500 company last week, the final piece of a 2005 land swap that likely inches the three-story yellow brick structure on Riverside Avenue closer to demolition.

Fidelity notified the city in December that it planned to demolish the 105-year-old building, but the city had three months to come up with a plan to relocate it.

That time came and went. Even a slight reprieve to try to work a deal with a Fernandina Beach developer didn't work out and the city turned the deed over Friday.

Fidelity spokesman Dan Murphy did not return phone and e-mail messages left Monday seeking comment.

As part of the swap, Fidelity built a riverfront park and gave the city more land for the Northbank Riverwalk. In return, Fidelity got more land to potentially expand its Riverside Avenue headquarters.

To avoid demolition, the building would need to be moved somewhere in the nearby Brooklyn neighborhood because it's too big to fit under overpasses and bridges in the area.

The city pegged the cost of moving the building at $600,000 - though one developer said it would cost half that estimate.

All proposals brought to the city to move the building carried a significant city investment with them, spokeswoman Misty Skipper said.

Jerry Spinks, president of the Jacksonville Historical Society, said the only hope for the building is someone who sees it as the perfect place for their office.

"It's preservation lies directly in finding a use," Spinks said.

City Councilman Warren Jones has been trying to find a developer and says he'll continue talks now with Fidelity now that the company owns the building.

The Fire Department left the station in May 2008, moving about a mile away to a $2 million facility on Forest Street.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-04-19/story/jacksonville-turns-over-deed-old-firehouse-company

stjr

April 19, 2010, 07:13:40 PM
Maybe Fidelity will be "easier" to negotiate with than the City.  They certainly have a lot more money than COJ so maybe they could ease up on demands.  The positive PR wouldn't hurt them either.  I can't imagine they have an immediate need for a new building so why not leave the station there and see what happens.

CS Foltz

April 19, 2010, 07:41:23 PM
Good idea stjr! Infact maybe they could renovate and refurbish right where it sit! Done right it could be a real jewel and definently a feather in their cap! That bldg has lots of potential but thats their call...........like you say "Why not leave the station there and see what happens"!

Jason

April 20, 2010, 10:32:19 AM
In the short term it would make for a great meeting space or themed restaraunt... Firehouse Subs in an actual firehouse?  What a novel idea!

stephendare

April 20, 2010, 10:33:20 AM
In the short term it would make for a great meeting space or themed restaraunt... Firehouse Subs in an actual firehouse?  What a novel idea!
+1

Dog Walker

April 20, 2010, 10:37:48 AM
Probably not enough money in the sub business for that building, but a high end restaurant like Espeto's Brazilian Steak House would probably work.  That location would be perfect for any business entertainment type restaurant.

Cliffs_Daughter

April 20, 2010, 10:38:23 AM
Their HQ office is still in Mandarin by the library, isn't it?
That would make one EXCELLENT HQ building, in my most humble opinion.  ;D

fieldafm

April 20, 2010, 11:48:49 AM
A firehouse sub location typically grosses around 550-650k in sales a year.  Not enough cash flow or a logical DCR for a single sub store to work in that location.  
The developer that was trying to save the building wanted the city to basically give him extremely valuble property on Forest Street(remember that will be a primary feeder to the interstate) and to pay just under half the relocation expenses.

Sorry to say, there isn't a financial scenario that makes sense for the fire station.  Fidelity has been a good steward to the city and has made good on their contractual obligations on the riverwalk land(even giving the city leeway and additional time to work a deal on the firehouse).  As much as I hate to see anymore historical structures being torn down in this fair city, its high time that Fidelity do what that land as they wish... which hopefully means expanding their campus in the future(its good to have Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000 companies headquarted in Brooklyn).  The time to save the station was a long time ago.

I'm sure thats not a popular opinion... but the old Brooklyn is gone for good.  I think its better we remember it for what it once was, and look forward and focus on its future... which is to say an economic engine for our city's future.

JaxNative68

April 20, 2010, 03:28:34 PM
for the two million dollar price tag of the new fire station, the city could have relocated and renovated the historic structure.  the city dropped the ball big time on this one!

vicupstate

April 20, 2010, 06:34:16 PM
A firehouse sub location typically grosses around 550-650k in sales a year.  Not enough cash flow or a logical DCR for a single sub store to work in that location. 
The developer that was trying to save the building wanted the city to basically give him extremely valuble property on Forest Street(remember that will be a primary feeder to the interstate) and to pay just under half the relocation expenses.

Sorry to say, there isn't a financial scenario that makes sense for the fire station.  Fidelity has been a good steward to the city and has made good on their contractual obligations on the riverwalk land(even giving the city leeway and additional time to work a deal on the firehouse).  As much as I hate to see anymore historical structures being torn down in this fair city, its high time that Fidelity do what that land as they wish... which hopefully means expanding their campus in the future(its good to have Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000 companies headquarted in Brooklyn).  The time to save the station was a long time ago.

I'm sure thats not a popular opinion... but the old Brooklyn is gone for good.  I think its better we remember it for what it once was, and look forward and focus on its future... which is to say an economic engine for our city's future.

What about the Firehouse HQ idea?  What about a Firehouse HQ AND restaurant, with the restaurant serving as a observation site for training purposes? 

Where there is a will, there is a way.  The problem is there is no WILL.  No vision either for that matter.  This city is such a JOKE when it comes to historic preservation. 

BTW, just how much taxes are being paid on that city owned land on Forest Street now?  That would be zero, since it is in public hands.  The city gave away land for a song in LaVilla ($2 a sq. ft), what is the difference?  If the relocation costs were in fact $300,000, then the city's part would be less than $150k. The city has spent a multiple of that on other buildings such as the 20 W Adams building that still sits half-done.     

Give me a break

TheProfessor

April 20, 2010, 07:22:12 PM
Fidelity needs to move the fire station for sure.  Fidelity is a wealthy Fortune 500 company. There are many empty lots in Brooklyn where the fire station could go.  Someone who is a Fidelity insider please post info on a good company contact, so that we may relay our sentiments to them and so that this historic structure is not demolished.

JaxNative68

April 21, 2010, 02:39:54 PM
^not to mention a lot of the fidelity higer ups persoanlly purchased land all around Brooklyn as personal investments in anticipation of the changes to come in brooklyn.  maybe they need a tax credit and could donate one of these lots to aide in a possible fire station relocation.

hanjin1

April 21, 2010, 03:07:14 PM
i think we all know deep down inside that tomorrow fidelity will go and quickly have this demolished just like the lerners building was

buckethead

April 21, 2010, 04:09:00 PM
 :-[

RockStar

April 21, 2010, 04:13:05 PM
Well, just 'cause something is old doesn't make it historic. Demo it already. What do you call that architectural style anyway? Bland Box?

Is this thread historic yet? Cause it's getting old. LoL!

Captain Zissou

April 21, 2010, 04:29:50 PM
Come on Rockstar, you of all people should realize the potential of this building.  You rehabbed and revitalized a bland space downtown. Imagine the potential for this building.  It would make a great restaurant, bar, office, anything.  All it needs is TLC. Historic structures are the only thing that keep Brooklyn from turning into SJTC north. 

RockStar

April 21, 2010, 04:38:26 PM
I know I know...I was just stoking the flames.  ;)  I actually thought it would make a killer restaurant space, but going through the cost of relocating it just doesn't make sense. A better firehouse that could be a restaurant is the old one on Adams next to the Burrito Gallery...but I think someone made a home out of it?? not sure.

vicupstate

April 21, 2010, 04:49:15 PM
If you are getting the building for free, which would actually SAVE Fidelity the expense of demolition, and the move could happen for $300K, then it is actually a bargain.  You couldn't build that much SF for that price, even with renovation expenses.   

mtraininjax

April 21, 2010, 11:20:13 PM
Quote
It would make a great restaurant, bar, office, anything.

Preservation Tap and Chop house was a great restaurant and IT was in Avondale and no one came. Good luck renovating a fire station with nothing after 5 PM around it to support itself. Knock it down if it cannot survive as an 8-5 business.

buckethead

April 22, 2010, 07:09:48 AM
If you are getting the building for free, which would actually SAVE Fidelity the expense of demolition, and the move could happen for $300K, then it is actually a bargain.  You couldn't build that much SF for that price, even with renovation expenses.   
I don't believe that building could be moved and rehabilitated for the cost of a similar (yet updated) new structure plus the cost of land. Perhaps it would prove to be a similar cost? How would you spend your money?

Palm Valley might be a good fit. It could be barged there, (or any othe waterfront location) but I don't know if that move would be any cheaper, or if a person ight see the structure as a desirable residence or business.

vicupstate

April 22, 2010, 10:29:41 AM
There is no way to know without a significant study of the details, but if the building is only moving a few blocks and the building is free, then I think it could be done.  The QUALITY of new materials would be far inferior to what was used in the building, in all likelyhood. 

If the city had to chip in $100k to get it done, so be it.  It would be worth it. Some things have VALUE beyond dollars and cents.

vicupstate

April 22, 2010, 10:39:06 AM
Quote
It would make a great restaurant, bar, office, anything.

Preservation Tap and Chop house was a great restaurant and IT was in Avondale and no one came. Good luck renovating a fire station with nothing after 5 PM around it to support itself. Knock it down if it cannot survive as an 8-5 business.

Restaurants have a very high failure rate anyway. there are no guarantees in life, regardless. When the I-10 /I-95. opens there will be no better location than Riverside Ave.  A fire station offers an uniqueness and amibience than couldn't be built from scratch. 

A very popular restaurant in Columbia SC spent a huge sum to renovate a train station for its location.  The PR and recognition could not be purchased for ANY sum of money.  Everyone in town, and even throughout the state was aware of it. They have been in business for decades doing brisk business since day one.

Your unimaginative "tear it down' attitude is why Jax has lost so much of its uniqueness already.  You must be a native. 

Captain Zissou

April 22, 2010, 11:15:37 AM
Quote
It would make a great restaurant, bar, office, anything.

Preservation Tap and Chop house was a great restaurant and IT was in Avondale and no one came. Good luck renovating a fire station with nothing after 5 PM around it to support itself. Knock it down if it cannot survive as an 8-5 business.

Restaurants have a very high failure rate anyway. there are no guarantees in life, regardless. When the I-10 /I-95. opens there will be no better location than Riverside Ave.  A fire station offers an uniqueness and amibience than couldn't be built from scratch.  

A very popular restaurant in Columbia SC spent a huge sum to renovate a train station for its location.  The PR and recognition could not be purchased for ANY sum of money.  Everyone in town, and even throughout the state was aware of it. They have been in business for decades doing brisk business since day one.

Your unimaginative "tear it down' attitude is why Jax has lost so much of its uniqueness already.  You must be a native.  

+4. I think this building is worth saving and is more feasible than many are aware of.

 Preservation Chop house had a terrible parking situation and I never heard a completely positive review from anyone.  They all said for the money you paid, it was far inferior to competitors.

stephendare

April 22, 2010, 11:25:49 AM
That kills a restaurant faster than anything.

I talked last night with Larry Peterson last night about the Fire Station, and he was intractibly in favor of never thinking about the Fire Station ever again. 

Apparently it is quite useless to the modern firefighter, for reasons which i have not as yet determined.  Maybe we could move it to the corner of 7th and Main, and turn it into a Firehouse subs?

Shwaz

April 22, 2010, 11:31:10 AM
All roads lead back to Firehouse subs... has to be the best idea.

thirdeye

April 22, 2010, 11:31:51 AM
Something also to think about when relocating the station is all of the site work that will need to be done.

An empty lot must have sewer, electric and storm water/drainage addressed.

That's not cheap.

stephendare

April 22, 2010, 11:35:06 AM
Well its a local restaurant, which gives it brownie points.

Its owned by former Firemen, which gives diners Karma points,

And the Main Street Corridor is pretty deserted.  The neighborhood pursued that brilliant policy of keeping rents so high that no one could afford to open a shop even in the great High, much less now that 'credit lines' and 'business loans' are beginning to rhyme with 'unicorn' and 'pegasus'.  So the rents are even lower than in other parts of town.

With low rent, and a good product the restaurant would survive.

fieldafm

April 22, 2010, 11:52:33 AM
I appreciate the passion folks have.  Truthfully, the fire station is a lost cause.  There are things in Jacksonville we can effect change on, however this isnt one of them.  The time for this building has past.  You can say I'm a skeptic and I'll wear that badge with honor.  There are things we can focus on in the urban core that have a chance of succeeding(like the Landing parking lot).

However, if someone really wants to start a Firehouse franchise(the franchise fees and startup costs are VERY competitive and the average Firehouse grosses more and has higher margins than a Subway franchise) and are willing to pay the moving expenses, secure land, AND the cost of the building.... give Don Fox or Stephen Joost a call 886-2179.  They have a very aggressive franchise push this year. I think you'll quickly see that ol F.S. Five doesnt quite add up.

stephendare

April 22, 2010, 11:55:37 AM
Seems like one of our springfielders would be glad to improve their property with a historic structure.

And why would Fidelity charge someone to remove a building that they would have to pay to demolish?  They could save the expense by donating the building to an organization.

If you have land, and the building is free, you just saved a couple of hundred thousand right there

fieldafm

April 22, 2010, 12:05:26 PM
Stephen
If you have someone willing to take on the risk, then go for it!  I truly mean that.  The previous efforts over the last year and a half were not anywhere close to being viable.

stephendare

April 22, 2010, 12:13:01 PM
Stephen
If you have someone willing to take on the risk, then go for it!  I truly mean that.  The previous efforts over the last year and a half were not anywhere close to being viable.

Its too bad that we dont have an organization in Springfield chartered to preserve historic structures and revitalize the area.  They could have organized this through teamwork and organizing everyone to a common goal.

Let me make some inquiries, just don't talk about this too publicly.  We do have a demolition and ethnic cleansing group that would start salivating at the thought of an historic building coming down to make way for new construction.  So......shhhhhh!    Mums the word.

vicupstate

April 22, 2010, 01:30:39 PM

I appreciate the passion folks have.  Truthfully, the fire station is a lost cause.  There are things in Jacksonville we can effect change on, however this isnt one of them.  The time for this building has past.  You can say I'm a skeptic and I'll wear that badge with honor.  There are things we can focus on in the urban core that have a chance of succeeding(like the Landing parking lot).

However, if someone really wants to start a Firehouse franchise(the franchise fees and startup costs are VERY competitive and the average Firehouse grosses more and has higher margins than a Subway franchise) and are willing to pay the moving expenses, secure land, AND the cost of the building.... give Don Fox or Stephen Joost a call 886-2179.  They have a very aggressive franchise push this year. I think you'll quickly see that ol F.S. Five doesnt quite add up.

Skeptic is one thing, visionless is another.  You have a Phd degree in that.

To a point, I have to agree with you. This is hopeless, since this building is located in Jacksonville.

If it were located in a REAL city, one with soul and values and vision, it would not be.  If someone proposed demolition of this building in Charleston, they would be arrested for smoking crack.  The very IDEA would not be taken seriously.  I guess renovation money must grow on the Live Oak trees there.  Too bad that Jax doesn't have those.   

There is more vacant land in Brooklyn than will be filled in 30 years. It is really impossible to find a 1/4 acre the city owns that can't be done without??

As for the water/sewer, etc. that should already be in place, and it is isn't, would be just as costly elsewhere.   

BTW, the idea is to make it the HQ of Firehouse subs, not merely a franchise location.  the building is much bigger than that single use (a franchise only) would require. 

It could be an icon of Firehouse Subs, but it could also be an office building or a mixed use building. 

If COJ would have spent $150k of the 2 +million that was WASTED on the Seafood restaurant in LaVilla, (THAT NEVER OPENED), that would already be underway !!!!

Stephen, instead of calling the Fire Chief, you should call Firehouse subs. Of course, the person who should really call them, is John Peyton.

Oh, and by the way, the Landing parking lot is in it's 23rd year of indecision, so I don't know which cause is more 'lost'. They both look pretty bleak in my book.   

fieldafm

April 22, 2010, 01:59:12 PM

I appreciate the passion folks have.  Truthfully, the fire station is a lost cause.  There are things in Jacksonville we can effect change on, however this isnt one of them.  The time for this building has past.  You can say I'm a skeptic and I'll wear that badge with honor.  There are things we can focus on in the urban core that have a chance of succeeding(like the Landing parking lot).

However, if someone really wants to start a Firehouse franchise(the franchise fees and startup costs are VERY competitive and the average Firehouse grosses more and has higher margins than a Subway franchise) and are willing to pay the moving expenses, secure land, AND the cost of the building.... give Don Fox or Stephen Joost a call 886-2179.  They have a very aggressive franchise push this year. I think you'll quickly see that ol F.S. Five doesnt quite add up.

Skeptic is one thing, visionless is another.  You have a Phd degree in that.

To a point, I have to agree with you. This is hopeless, since this building is located in Jacksonville.

If it were located in a REAL city, one with soul and values and vision, it would not be.  If someone proposed demolition of this building in Charleston, they would be arrested for smoking crack.  The very IDEA would not be taken seriously.  I guess renovation money must grow on the Live Oak trees there.  Too bad that Jax doesn't have those.    

There is more vacant land in Brooklyn than will be filled in 30 years. It is really impossible to find a 1/4 acre the city owns that can't be done without??

As for the water/sewer, etc. that should already be in place, and it is isn't, would be just as costly elsewhere.    

BTW, the idea is to make it the HQ of Firehouse subs, not merely a franchise location.  the building is much bigger than that single use (a franchise only) would require.

It could be an icon of Firehouse Subs, but it could also be an office building or a mixed use building.

If COJ would have spent $150k of the 2 +million that was WASTED on the Seafood restaurant in LaVilla, (THAT NEVER OPENED), that would already be underway !!!!

Stephen, instead of calling the Fire Chief, you should call Firehouse subs. Of course, the person who should really call them, is John Peyton.

Oh, and by the way, the Landing parking lot is in it's 23rd year of indecision, so I don't know which cause is more 'lost'. They both look pretty bleak in my book.  

I think we agree on some very fundamental issues regarding this city.  Personal attacks aside(the PHD comment is ludracris, untrue, and uncalled for), I said what I said b/c the actual numbers on the fire station as it stands now(in Fidelity's house, as bound by their contract with COJ) means this is just not the most effective use of our time.  I am 1000% behind the rejuvination of our urban core... however the station's time has past.  There were much better solutions before, and even those werent very good.

The difference b/w this and the Landing's parking lot is a contract and a corresponding judge's ruling on said contract.  I think now is the time to act on the Landing issue.  Money is being spent on Laura Street and I truly feel public sentiment is going to swing in the Landing's favor(it has started already according to conversations I had over the weekend).  The city is bound to uphold their agreement with the Landing.  The city arleady upheld their agreement with Fidelity.  

I agree that the LaVilla restaurant was mismanaged, short-sighted, and represented a microcosm of the failure the city has subjected itself to.  The last proposal to save F.S. Five would have been EERILY similar to the LaVilla fiasco.  I optimistically hope the city learned from that previous mistake.

I very much appreciate your passion.  I have very fond memories of the fire station as a kid(I vividly remember getting to ring the siren on one of the station's truck when I was very young preceding a trip to the green derby restaurant, and my father used to get his blood pressure checked at the station).  I seriously hate to see what happened to it.  But beating a dead horse doesnt make it any less dead.  My point is, there are bigger/healthier horses that need saving.  I think now is the time to start saving those horses.  

As I responded to Stephen, if there is a willing investor... I would volunteer my time to move the damn building brick by brick If I had to.  I posted the number to call.  By all means then please lead the effort!

vicupstate

April 22, 2010, 02:59:10 PM
There WAS a willing investor.  And I hardly think $150k compares to $2mm.  His Fire station proposal was to house an existing, ongoing business, not a start-up like the LaVila Restaurant.  Again, hardly comparable.

You have not presented ONE reason why it can't be saved.   All that has to happen is the city gives up 1/4 acre that it is not doing anything with, and provide $150k.  Plus Fidelity has to agree to save itself some money. 

If somehting THAT simple is simply dismissed out of hand, without even a serious attempt, then there is NO HOPE for ANY historic preservation in Jax.   

Of course, it isn't EASY, but if enough effort was put into making it happen, instead of thinking of reasons why it can't happen, it would have already happened. 


"Hard things are what great cities do"
 -- Joseph P. Riley, Jr.  Mayor of Charleston, 1975-     

Shwaz

April 22, 2010, 03:09:22 PM
There WAS a willing investor.  And I hardly think $150k compares to $2mm.  His Fire station proposal was to house an existing, ongoing business, not a start-up like the LaVila Restaurant.  Again, hardly comparable.

You have not presented ONE reason why it can't be saved.   All that has to happen is the city gives up 1/4 acre that it is not doing anything with, and provide $150k.  Plus Fidelity has to agree to save itself some money. 

If somehting THAT simple is simply dismissed out of hand, without even a serious attempt, then there is NO HOPE for ANY historic preservation in Jax.   

Of course, it isn't EASY, but if enough effort was put into making it happen, instead of thinking of reasons why it can't happen, it would have already happened. 


"Hard things are what great cities do"
 -- Joseph P. Riley, Jr.  Mayor of Charleston, 1975-     

Your investor scenario is short sighted.

It was never published who was to pay for relocation. The investor claimed that it could be moved for $300K and that he would contribute a small portion towards land near the new 95 exchange... land that was projected to skyrocket in price.

Timkin

April 22, 2010, 07:32:23 PM
Is there any particular reason ...instead of spending the considerable amount it would cost to demolish the Fire House and pay to put it in a landfill somewhere , WHY that money could not be used towards moving it to some location closeby.... Hear me out on this...

 Brooklyn....particularly the area near FS5  has so much vacant property ,it is unbelievable... For the sake of saving this basicly two story house. ( we are not trying to move a 10 story hotel here or anything even close... we are talking about a big house...... SOMEWHERE close by...within blocks of where it now is...making the move very easy  and let it sit on some vacant property somewhere close by until a use can be identified and a place to move it permanently..  Movers ...more often than not will leave the building on the rails they move the unit on... and I would wager there are movers lined up willing to get the work.. I personally know two very well and would call them at a drop of a hat to get estimate if this would help.

  The notion that this is a "lost cause"  is so typical of the lack of vision in this city..  It is still standing and therefore NOT a lost cause.   As I sound like a broken record on the School 4 thread  I repeat ..where there is a will , there is a way... Why not approach Mr Milne...he has 3 vacant lots on College...ask about the possibility of storing the building on the corner lot of College and Roselle for a reasonable sum of rent to let the building sit there.   Where there is a will there is a way..

When will our city leaders get this message...  We really must stop demolishing everything in sight because it is old.... To be an attractive Urban city , one must have a reasonable amount of historic landmarks..  Alot of folks like the look of the old....

 As to FS#5  Corporate Firehouse subs could be in some of the building.... why not have a franchise as well in the lower level ??? I cannot think of a more fitting tribute...

 The mindset has to change people.....  I could give a $%!5 less about restaurants that never opened or Landing Parking...  Wastes of monies like that give our endangered landmarks even less..

 Lets get rid of some of the hugely overpaid salaries residing at City Hall...  That alone would help our financial situation in this city.

As to who SHOULD PAY...to me , that should be Fidelity...if they are so eager to pay to demolish the building... why not do something to their credit and save a landmark by moving it elsewhere..  The costs to them would be a drop of a water in a Lake compared to their land value they have acquired.

Timkin

April 22, 2010, 07:36:42 PM
I would ALSO very willingly donate my time to help move the building.

stjr

April 22, 2010, 09:03:02 PM
Unfortunately, it doesn't cost much to tear down buildings.  That's why the option is pursued so often.  Don't count on avoiding that cost as a major factor in Fidelity's thinking.  The added bonus of demoliton to the property owner is that they don't pay extra property taxes on the "improvements".  Sad but true.

If Fidelity does something, it will be out of their "love" for our history and community.  At their size, this whole project is chump change.  Not even a week's pay in some years for their CEO or less than one hour's revenue for their group of companies.

We could hope that Fidelity donates it to the community as the "Fidelity Riverside-Brooklyn Community Center".  RAP and the City of Jacksonville should jointly ask them.

vicupstate

April 22, 2010, 10:11:20 PM
Shwaz, someone stated on here that the investor would pay slightly more than half the cost of moving it.  Whatever parcel the city donated would not be that large, and it would start to pay taxes once it is in private hands.  It would not have to be 'primest' parcel either. 

If Fidelity agreed to this and donated the money they would save (which would probably pay 1/6 or more of the cost of moving it), the mayor could publicly commend them in a visible way.  No Fortune 500 company would mind some good PR.     

I commend you Timken, Jax needs more minds like yours. 

fieldafm

April 22, 2010, 10:14:32 PM
Fidelity cut 600 positions in the first quarter of this year.  Asking them to pick up the tab to move the fire station in the name of good citenzship is a tough pill to swallow for the good citizens that had their jobs eliminated.  Paying to demo the building is about 1/45th the cost you are proposing them to take on to move the building.  Fidelity is a very good steward to the city of Jacksonville.  I think it is uncategorrilby incorrect to view them as the bad guys in this situation.

I'm not in favor of losing the fire station.  However, its an economic reality IMO.

For the passionate individuals in this thread, I truly understand and share your passion for this city.  We are all in this together.  If you think you can make the argument for Firehouse Subs to move their corporate headquarters, move a building, secure property, and rehab and retrofit the building then I encourage you to do so.  Those guys are sharp as a tack.  If the economic argument makes sense, they're smart enough to pull the trigger.

I think once you study the numbers, the picture isnt so pretty.  There arent exactly buyers lined up.  There is a time to see the forrest through the trees, and then there's a time to make sure you don't kill yourself running into a tree.

My point about the Landing being a true community focus are fourfold ... the city has an obligation contractually to provide assistance for parking facilities, the money exists, the Landing is the anchor for the millions being poured into Laura Street, and a successful Landing offers by FAR the most bang for the buck(the Landing is the second most visited destination in the city and the most visited destination downtown... its not even in the same stratosphere as Metro Park which is getting a very unwise and more costly makeover).

Timkin, man I admire the passion and dedication you have for Annie Lyttle.  My grandfather attended school there.  If you, viccup, or any others want to make the case to Firehouse, the torch is yours.  I wish you the best.  If it happens I would move that building brick by brick with my bare hands.  I would also sincerly encourage you to harness that same passion unto the mayor's office in favor of the Landing's parking lot proposal. 

fieldafm

April 22, 2010, 10:29:48 PM
There WAS a willing investor.  And I hardly think $150k compares to $2mm.  His Fire station proposal was to house an existing, ongoing business, not a start-up like the LaVila Restaurant.  Again, hardly comparable.


"Hard things are what great cities do"
 -- Joseph P. Riley, Jr.  Mayor of Charleston, 1975-     

Vicup, we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree... the city would have had to pay much more than $150k(with money that doesnt exist), and in the end that particular proposal was very one sided.  It would have done much more to add to the wealth of a private individual than to do much for the public good. 

I appreciate your passion.  I encourage you to use that passion to make the case to Firehouse... its a novel idea that I would personally like to see work.  I encourage you to do some number crunching and see what you find out.  It's not as clearcut when pen gets put to paper. 

Timkin

April 22, 2010, 10:51:37 PM
I will happily take the case to Firehouse and any other prospect possible so as to see it saved. Fieldatm... Thank you for the compliment.  I personally do not like being in the spotlight , nor am I trying to convey the role of some sort of hero or big shot because I am none of that.  I am a simple man who truly cares about people.    In no way , shape , form , or fashion am I making Fidelity out to be any kind of badguy... That title belongs to persons in our City Government....none of which I would waste time to name or get into a peeing match with someone on the forum over.  Let me just say this ..... I pled my case about Annie Lytle to certain members of City Council  ..again no mention of names...it really doesn't matter.. and to the Mayor...who did by the way (I presume it was he , anyway...coulda been one of his assistants, who knows ) did reply , indicating his commitment to helping achieve the goal of seeing A/L  preserved... Well  if by preserved he meant the building did not get torn down yet , then he fulfilled his promise..  but we all know , including John Peyton , that this was not the nature of my plea...it was to help somehow , the foundation who owned it at the time , find a solution or at least lend a hand towards helping the building.... that didnt mean with a stick of dynamite.  Bottom line... one  (1)  council person stood behind me from the beginning and does to date... I have no problem mentioning the name, Glorious Johnson...someone that I think truly does care about our history, our city and our people.. She has endlessly and tirelessly demonstrated this..and no matter the fate of the two buildings FS 5 and PS 4 ,  I will never forget her dedication and support..  Aside from CW Johnson  the support was ZERO , ZILCH, Nothing , Nada  from any other person or persons representing our city's management , Government and Council.

 I regret the demise of so many positions at Fidelity... but that is not an isolated incident either...we all know this is happening all over.   All I am saying where Fidelity is concerned is .. Spend that 1/64 of money you claim it takes to tear it down and wait it out ...just a little while longer , until some of us can locate a prospect.... I have been working on the very same thing for Annie Lytle...and while nothing is carved in stone,, There are some prospects...some of which DO want to come to see the building ( we are talking about School 4 now,not FS 5 .) and are very interested.  given the current economy and the falling prices of real estate, seems to me NOW IS THE TIME to accomplish these tasks..  I know there was a land deal and the city had so long to relocate the Station and all that stuff ....but I SERIOUSLY DOUBT an 8 hour work day was ever spent doing that... It is so much easier to implode it and haul it off in a dumptruck.  Such has been the mindset of our fair city for most if not all of my life, and I for one am sick beyond belief of everything historic ending up a memory.   Fidelity COULD ...They DO have the means to save the station by not demoing it,,but how about putting a  100 dollar banner on the front of it that says  " FREE.....Haul to your property"   who knows????????  how could this hurt?  Will they do that or help to move it somewhere else??  I doubt they want to be bothered...

 If we were talking about only one or two historic buildings going away  I probably would be upset ,,but not to the degree I now am..  This has gone on far too long and it has to stop.. We have all but lost our historic fabric.

 It means alot to me , to learn that your Grandfather attended #4..  That should make the School special to you as it does to me.. My mother , who is no longer among us also attended it, but even had she not, the building is awesome .. it deserves a reuse, and so does #5.  :)

Respectfully......

mtraininjax

April 23, 2010, 12:49:31 AM
Quote
A very popular restaurant in Columbia SC spent a huge sum to renovate a train station for its location.  The PR and recognition could not be purchased for ANY sum of money.  Everyone in town, and even throughout the state was aware of it. They have been in business for decades doing brisk business since day one. Your unimaginative "tear it down' attitude is why Jax has lost so much of its uniqueness already.  You must be a native. 

Yes, I am a native, of sorts, and I have seen enough buildings sit and sit and sit, and now houses are sitting and sitting and sitting, but because these houses are in Springfield or Riverside and are empty, we should, save them? And create breeding grounds for homeless, wild animals, allow them to decay and rot and fall down, creating new hazards for tax payers. How long should we wait for Prince Charming to find the money and a plan to move the poor structure, FS 5? Should we wait 10 years, 100 years, how about 500 years?

The time has come and gone, and as fieldafm has said, this is a lost cause and we should devote resources, time, and energy to projects we feel have a better chance of survival. Fidelity does not want this albatross on their property, so it will have to be moved, one way or another. Since no one has a plan to move it, nor the resources, why is this even a discussion? The metrojax readers have a better chance of JTA finding 60 million dollars for their transit hub, than any of us do to have someone come forward with a plan to save FS5.

Timkin

April 23, 2010, 01:14:08 AM
I could not disagree with you more, Mtrain.... but you are entitled to your opinion .

mtraininjax

April 23, 2010, 01:18:46 AM
Timken, its fine to disagree with me, but I am a realist. I appreciate your passion, but if you are passionate about FS5, find a way to save it. Time and the odds are on my side, prove me wrong.

Be thankful PS4 is not under the microscope as well, if it were on land of a Fortune 500 company or in the right of way, it too might see its end. We don't erect buildings for them to sit empty.

Timkin

April 23, 2010, 05:13:07 AM
Do you really appreciate my passion??   I completely agree we do not build buildings for them to sit empty.   Lets leave it at this M...   Im going to go on doing what im doing ..which is fighting to save these historic structures...  You have another "schlitz" and keep stabbing.. Your  "realism"  is pretty horrifying . You need to keep right on with the mindset that time and odds are on your side.   Life has ZERO guarantees..but as long as these buildings stand, and I am breathing..I will be one of those looking not only for a way to let them remain, but to be reused.  Thats WHO I AM .. THATS what I do, SIR. 

  There are those like yourself who watch things happen...and there are those like myself who make things happen.  :)   I hope the day will come when you are sitting back wondering what happened :)

vicupstate

April 23, 2010, 06:04:38 AM
Mtrain, VIRTUALLY EVERY house in Springfield, and a Large chuck of the ones in R-side have been in terrible condition, AND FOR MANY YEARS TOO.  If you haD YOUR WAY, EVERY ONE OF THEM would have been torn down. 

I wish you would be as passionate about removing unused vacant lots as you are about removing unused buildings.  But I guess a vacant lot does add a certain ambience.  It also provides a low cost opportunity for entrepreneurs.

I wish I had known how pervasive you and fieldafm's attitudes were in this city.  If I had, I would never have invested a cent in this small-minded town.

THERE WAS AN IDEA AND AN INVESTOR, BTW.   ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN WAS THE CITY  TOWN TO GET ONBOARD !!!!!

mtraininjax

April 23, 2010, 09:27:45 AM
Quote
There are those like yourself who watch things happen...and there are those like myself who make things happen.     I hope the day will come when you are sitting back wondering what happened  

We shall see sir, so far, all I see is talk and hot air. Meanwhile PS4 continues to deteriorate....

Quote
THERE WAS AN IDEA AND AN INVESTOR, BTW.   ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN WAS THE CITY  TOWN TO GET ONBOARD !!!!!

LOL, I am sure the residents on the Southside share the same convictions. The only people who care about FS4 are those passionate about historic preservation and those who would rather let empty buildings sit empty, to save history. How does an empty building teach us anything about the history of the building? Its just a sad reminder of better times. Riverside and Springfield empty houses still sit empty. I'll take some pictures over the weekend and post them of condemned, still standing structures, and the need to do something with them, either positive or negative.

fieldafm

April 23, 2010, 11:59:45 AM
Mtrain, VIRTUALLY EVERY house in Springfield, and a Large chuck of the ones in R-side have been in terrible condition, AND FOR MANY YEARS TOO.  If you haD YOUR WAY, EVERY ONE OF THEM would have been torn down. 

I wish you would be as passionate about removing unused vacant lots as you are about removing unused buildings.  But I guess a vacant lot does add a certain ambience.  It also provides a low cost opportunity for entrepreneurs.

I wish I had known how pervasive you and fieldafm's attitudes were in this city.  If I had, I would never have invested a cent in this small-minded town.

THERE WAS AN IDEA AND AN INVESTOR, BTW.   ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN WAS THE CITY  TOWN TO GET ONBOARD !!!!!



vicup
Call Firehouse.  I posted their corporate phone number.  I actually drove by their office today, so I know they're open for business.  Make your case.  Instead of chastising people on the forums(contrary to your opinion, I'm quite possibly one of the more optimistic and bullish people about our city that you'll meet), use your passion.  The devil is in the details, my friend.

JaxNative68

April 23, 2010, 12:37:35 PM
Is there any particular reason ...instead of spending the considerable amount it would cost to demolish the Fire House and pay to put it in a landfill somewhere , WHY that money could not be used towards moving it to some location closeby.... Hear me out on this...

 Brooklyn....particularly the area near FS5  has so much vacant property ,it is unbelievable... For the sake of saving this basicly two story house. ( we are not trying to move a 10 story hotel here or anything even close... we are talking about a big house...... SOMEWHERE close by...within blocks of where it now is...making the move very easy  and let it sit on some vacant property somewhere close by until a use can be identified and a place to move it permanently..  Movers ...more often than not will leave the building on the rails they move the unit on... and I would wager there are movers lined up willing to get the work.. I personally know two very well and would call them at a drop of a hat to get estimate if this would help.

  The notion that this is a "lost cause"  is so typical of the lack of vision in this city..  It is still standing and therefore NOT a lost cause.   As I sound like a broken record on the School 4 thread  I repeat ..where there is a will , there is a way... Why not approach Mr Milne...he has 3 vacant lots on College...ask about the possibility of storing the building on the corner lot of College and Roselle for a reasonable sum of rent to let the building sit there.   Where there is a will there is a way..

When will our city leaders get this message...  We really must stop demolishing everything in sight because it is old.... To be an attractive Urban city , one must have a reasonable amount of historic landmarks..  Alot of folks like the look of the old....

 As to FS#5  Corporate Firehouse subs could be in some of the building.... why not have a franchise as well in the lower level ??? I cannot think of a more fitting tribute...

 The mindset has to change people.....  I could give a $%!5 less about restaurants that never opened or Landing Parking...  Wastes of monies like that give our endangered landmarks even less..

 Lets get rid of some of the hugely overpaid salaries residing at City Hall...  That alone would help our financial situation in this city.

As to who SHOULD PAY...to me , that should be Fidelity...if they are so eager to pay to demolish the building... why not do something to their credit and save a landmark by moving it elsewhere..  The costs to them would be a drop of a water in a Lake compared to their land value they have acquired.

demolition would not require a "considerable amount ".  You could probably get it completely removed from the site for under $25,000 - far less than the cost of moving it.

JaxNative68

April 23, 2010, 12:39:28 PM
Unfortunately, it doesn't cost much to tear down buildings.  That's why the option is pursued so often.  Don't count on avoiding that cost as a major factor in Fidelity's thinking.  The added bonus of demoliton to the property owner is that they don't pay extra property taxes on the "improvements".  Sad but true.

If Fidelity does something, it will be out of their "love" for our history and community.  At their size, this whole project is chump change.  Not even a week's pay in some years for their CEO or less than one hour's revenue for their group of companies.

We could hope that Fidelity donates it to the community as the "Fidelity Riverside-Brooklyn Community Center".  RAP and the City of Jacksonville should jointly ask them.


if the city leader show no love for our history and community, why should fidelity?

ChriswUfGator

April 25, 2010, 11:35:18 AM
It's ridiculous that this thread even exists. Only in Jacksonville.

Has anybody actually invested in the set of amazing architectural books which have been published about our local history and architecture? And compared what's in the book to the utter wasteland that the downtown area is now?

It's individual things like the loss of this firestation, combined to some extent with the racially misanthropic visions of urban development in the 1950's and 1960's, and the apathy towards preservation of the 1980's and 1990's, that over many years, made it this way. PUT A STOP TO IT BEFORE ANOTHER ONE IS LOST.

Timkin

April 25, 2010, 08:37:04 PM
Chris....  Appreciate your viewpoint and I would love to invest in the book set you mentioned.   I'm not sure what your point is in your first statement. "It's ridiculous that this thread even exists. Only in Jacksonville" . 

 What is ridiculous are the people who come to this and other threads and spew nothing but negativity.   They will preach all day long about abandon buildings historic or not and how they need to be destroyed..  They will condemn pretty much Historic Landmarks but never lift a finger to do anything to help them or for that matter to help their community.

My words are backed up by actions.  I will fight to see anything Historic Preserved if I think it has even a granule of hope of being saved and reused. 

As a backup plan to FireStation 5  I think I will contact my two sources of Movers and see if either of them would be interested in the building.  They have been known many times to take buildings that are usable as FS 5 very definitely still is ..and relocate them.

mtraininjax

April 27, 2010, 10:59:45 PM
Timken, bravo, I applaud your efforts, but knowing movers, why would they want to move something that costs a lot of money and resources? Where are they moving it to? Do you have a definate location, address for the building?

I'd like to know so I can lobby my councilperson in that area to reject it.

Timkin

April 27, 2010, 11:15:32 PM
Mtrain..
    Perhaps it would be suitable if I no longer post on the MetroJacksonville site.  You seem to have an axe to grind and I fail to understand your brain at all except that you want everything that is vacant leveled and hauled to a dump.   

Ocklawaha

April 28, 2010, 12:27:54 AM
Keep on truckin Timkin! Remember the old proverb...

There Are Three Types of People in This World: Those Who Make Things Happen, Those Who Watch Things Happen and Those Who Wonder What Happened.

Guess which one we are and which one MTrain seems to be?


Yeah, I thought so!


OCKLAWAHA

Timkin

April 28, 2010, 10:25:58 AM
I would not give M the satisfaction of not posting.....:)   

Have another Schlitz, M.   that seems to be the one thing you do make happen ;)

ricker

December 21, 2010, 04:44:50 AM
LONG LIVE THE LOVE OF FS#5 & PS#4!
The old firehouse was beautiful with its original dormer - and looks great dead ahead as anyone new to Riverside, DT  Forest/I10 approaches the river.
Similar to the building which previously housed Amsterdam Sky Cafe immediately outside the VeteransMemorial Arena.
old and new together.
What's with all the temporary looking light poles around A/L ps4? I have NEVER seen them on.
do tell.

Dog Walker

December 21, 2010, 08:35:29 AM
Some of those lights are on now and absolutely BLAST the neighborhoods close to them with light so bright you can't keep it out of your house.

I don't see how the residents who have rooms at the north end of Parkridge Nursing Home can get any sleep.

The new lights are much brighter than those that they replaced.

JaxNative68

December 21, 2010, 04:08:01 PM
Keep on truckin Timkin! Remember the old proverb...

There Are Three Types of People in This World: Those Who Make Things Happen, Those Who Watch Things Happen and Those Who Wonder What Happened.

Guess which one we are and which one MTrain seems to be?


Yeah, I thought so!


OCKLAWAHA

you forgot about the fourth type: Those who talk about making things happen only to sound important, but are actually unable to make things happen, but continue to talk a great game until the time comes to actually make something happen and then are nowhere to be found.  Unfortunately the world is full of the fourth type right now.

ricker

December 21, 2010, 06:20:28 PM
was it "Chevy Chase" who mumbled to expect nothing so you wouldn't be disappointed?

JaxNative68

December 22, 2010, 04:37:23 PM
not that i recall, but i could be wrong... wouldn't be the first time.

but it was ted knight who yelled "you'll get nothing and like it".

Ernest Street

December 22, 2010, 08:00:05 PM
I still like.."Hey Moose,Hey Rocco..help the Judge find his checkbook!" ;D

ChriswUfGator

December 23, 2010, 08:44:56 AM
Best movie ever.

Ocklawaha

December 23, 2010, 11:53:18 AM
This is an easy fix...

MOVE FIRE STATION 5 ACROSS THE STREET ONTO JTA PROPERTY!

Come on JTA, play the hero here, we've already got a Brooklyn Station Designed for the Skyway, but NOTHING at the location where you plan the south end of the Riverside line. That location is already owned by JTA and reserved for a Skyway station, moreover if the streetcar is built, it should pass right by the door on Forest, between Myrtle and Riverside, toss in a few buses and a potato chip truck and POOF instant HISTORIC station/TOD.


OCKLAWAHA

JaxNative68

December 24, 2010, 09:43:58 AM
Can it be modified so the people mover cars drive through one of the firetruck bays?

vicupstate

June 25, 2012, 04:54:20 AM
Article about Historic Fire Station in Charlotte that was saved from demolition at the 11th hour.  Now it is a spa.  I wish the Charlotte Observer had  included more pictures of it.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/21/3337469/spa-brings-new-life-to-historic.html

Timkin

June 25, 2012, 03:24:40 PM
Article about Historic Fire Station in Charlotte that was saved from demolition at the 11th hour.  Now it is a spa.  I wish the Charlotte Observer had  included more pictures of it.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/21/3337469/spa-brings-new-life-to-historic.html

Take note, Jacksonville. If Charlotte, NC can do it, so can we.

vicupstate

July 22, 2012, 09:46:21 PM
This link shows a listing of old and historic Fire Stations in Charleston, some of which are still in use as stations and others that have been converted to other uses.

 http://www.legeros.com/history/charleston/stations/
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