1534 Oak Street - Appropriate for the Neighborhood?

[grimss]

Unfortunately, I think this whole episode has exposed some real loopholes in the Riverside Avondale Zoning Overlay. The Overlay was the end-result of countless meetings between residents, developers, consultants and neighborhood representatives, and its goal (among others) was to create zones that would be both conducive to development and enhance the neighborhood's human-scale and historic character.  

Now, with the very first development proposed since the Overlay, we're getting a building that, quite frankly, couldn't have been built in, say, Arlington. I'm not talking about the design--personally, I'm fine with it--but rather the shockingly few parking spaces the developer is being required to provide for a 100+ seat restaurant and associated residential and office uses.  Councilman Bill Bishop got the developers on record as not wanting to commit to actually building the 11 actual additional spaces on Oak St. across from their parcel that they included in their site plan. At the very least, I think some sort of shared parking arrangement with area surface lots (McIver, Publix etc.) should have been required, because the parking load on surrounding streets unquestionably is going to increase.

The parking credits/reductions built into the Overlay have somehow netted us a situation in which the developer is being allowed to create exactly ONE NEW SPACE beyond what's already there (and already heavily utilized). IMHO, that's just crazy.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

This 'parking issue' is really out of hand.  Is no one willing to walk a few blocks?  Every once and while, someone on this post wants to make a reference to Savannah, well, if you've ever hung out at city market or bay street in sav, then you know that you have 3 choices:  Drive around looking for a parking spot nearby (not guaranteed), park 4 or 5 blocks away and walk, park 4 or 5 blocks away and sit in a cab for an eternity.  I choose to walk.  5 points has those same options now, and it's agreed that adding more will result in more congestion, but really, park a few blocks away and take the time to walk around 5 points.  You may just find something/somewhere that's even better than your intended destination.  You can't accidentally walk into a cool looking venue when your driving around LOOKING for a parking spot.

[Dog Walker]

There is an existing building in the area that is crying out for someone to put a restaurant in it and it has enough parking on site to meet the overlay.  904 Margaret Street, at the corner of College and Margaret Streets overlooking Riverside Park and next to the Pizza Palace.  

It is probably big enough for 100 seats and it is two story.  It is a beautiful older building with a tiled terrace out front.  A restaurant like Panache would fit perfectly.

It has been vacant for a long time, but has a new roof and is ready for remodeling.  I think the price has been drastically reduced from a couple of years ago.

[dlupercio]

This 'parking issue' is really out of hand.  Is no one willing to walk a few blocks?  Every once and while, someone on this post wants to make a reference to Savannah, well, if you've ever hung out at city market or bay street in sav, then you know that you have 3 choices:  Drive around looking for a parking spot nearby (not guaranteed), park 4 or 5 blocks away and walk, park 4 or 5 blocks away and sit in a cab for an eternity.  I choose to walk.  5 points has those same options now, and it's agreed that adding more will result in more congestion, but really, park a few blocks away and take the time to walk around 5 points.  You may just find something/somewhere that's even better than your intended destination.  You can't accidentally walk into a cool looking venue when your driving around LOOKING for a parking spot.

I agree! It seems like floridians enjoy being a parking lot city. Walk far away....enjoy what five points has to offer. and lose some weight all in the process. see win/win.

[grimss]

This 'parking issue' is really out of hand.  Is no one willing to walk a few blocks?  Every once and while, someone on this post wants to make a reference to Savannah, well, if you've ever hung out at city market or bay street in sav, then you know that you have 3 choices:  Drive around looking for a parking spot nearby (not guaranteed), park 4 or 5 blocks away and walk, park 4 or 5 blocks away and sit in a cab for an eternity.  I choose to walk.  5 points has those same options now, and it's agreed that adding more will result in more congestion, but really, park a few blocks away and take the time to walk around 5 points.  You may just find something/somewhere that's even better than your intended destination.  You can't accidentally walk into a cool looking venue when your driving around LOOKING for a parking spot.

As a native of DC and a former resident of Manhattan, trust me--I get the whole walk-to-your-destination thing. But as Steve noted earlier, the parking issue really has nothing to do with accommodating restaurant visitors. The folks who have a right to be peeved are the businesses whose allocated customer parking will be hijacked, the homeowners who'll have to continually execute complicated three-point parking maneuvers just to pull into their driveways (presuming those haven't been blocked) and the renters who simply won't be able to find a space outside their house.  Walking those four or five blocks with your groceries kind of sucks . . .

[Ocklawaha]

This 'parking issue' is really out of hand.  Is no one willing to walk a few blocks?  Every once and while, someone on this post wants to make a reference to Savannah, well, if you've ever hung out at city market or bay street in sav, then you know that you have 3 choices:  Drive around looking for a parking spot nearby (not guaranteed), park 4 or 5 blocks away and walk, park 4 or 5 blocks away and sit in a cab for an eternity.  I choose to walk.  5 points has those same options now, and it's agreed that adding more will result in more congestion, but really, park a few blocks away and take the time to walk around 5 points.  You may just find something/somewhere that's even better than your intended destination.  You can't accidentally walk into a cool looking venue when your driving around LOOKING for a parking spot.

Yes.  The parking issue is completely out of hand, and these requirements for so much parking are the biggest drivers for demolition.  In my opinion, i don't think that a neighborhood can be both historic and comply with the ridiculous suburban parking ethos at the same time

Not to mention that this building is within 50' feet of where MJ and JTA think our vintage streetcar line will pass! Although the designer of this place has a solid wall facing Oak (the streetcar route) if they would spin it around it would open to this unique mass transit, perhaps becoming one of the first businesses to benefit from it.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Its still a damned shame that the neighborhood let the entire Brooklyn commercial district get plowed under on the hair trigger hope that it would be redeveloped by those horrible hallmark proposals.

There were some seriously cool buildings there.  It will be hundreds of millions of dollars to replace the fabric that the city tore down in the mad dash to make that area safe for suburbanites.

I agree with the location of Jonathan's new restaurant, but Park Street through Brooklyn is probably the most underexploited area in the city.  Connecting Five Points and Downtown without the downtown parking policies along with some great old buildings?  All it would take would be two or three cool establishments and that area would wake right up.

Probably so, but you'll need someone willing to take a risk to jump start the area.  Chew has already taken a risk on downtown and that hasn't worked out so well, so I doubt they're willing to take a risk in Brooklyn right now.  Anyway, 200 Riverside is now breaking ground soon and will include a Courtyard by Marriott hotel along with a park in the immediate area.  That could help things in Brooklyn but a streetcar would kick things into high gear.

[acme54321]

Streetcar or not, the building would be much more on an anchor on that corner if it opened up to Oak as much as it does on Margaret.  Granted Mossfire and everything else backs up to oak on that block, but that doesn't really matter.  I think not securing the 11 spots on the other side of Oak for the design is also dumb on the city's part.

[ChriswUfGator]

This 'parking issue' is really out of hand.  Is no one willing to walk a few blocks?  Every once and while, someone on this post wants to make a reference to Savannah, well, if you've ever hung out at city market or bay street in sav, then you know that you have 3 choices:  Drive around looking for a parking spot nearby (not guaranteed), park 4 or 5 blocks away and walk, park 4 or 5 blocks away and sit in a cab for an eternity.  I choose to walk.  5 points has those same options now, and it's agreed that adding more will result in more congestion, but really, park a few blocks away and take the time to walk around 5 points.  You may just find something/somewhere that's even better than your intended destination.  You can't accidentally walk into a cool looking venue when your driving around LOOKING for a parking spot.

Yes.  The parking issue is completely out of hand, and these requirements for so much parking are the biggest drivers for demolition.  In my opinion, i don't think that a neighborhood can be both historic and comply with the ridiculous suburban parking ethos at the same time

Not to mention that this building is within 50' feet of where MJ and JTA think our vintage streetcar line will pass! Although the designer of this place has a solid wall facing Oak (the streetcar route) if they would spin it around it would open to this unique mass transit, perhaps becoming one of the first businesses to benefit from it.

OCKLAWAHA

Don't worry, Ock!

You know good ole' JTA is busy plotting to kill off the streetcar line, I doubt there will be anything to look at once they're done!

[cline]

This 'parking issue' is really out of hand.  Is no one willing to walk a few blocks?  Every once and while, someone on this post wants to make a reference to Savannah, well, if you've ever hung out at city market or bay street in sav, then you know that you have 3 choices:  Drive around looking for a parking spot nearby (not guaranteed), park 4 or 5 blocks away and walk, park 4 or 5 blocks away and sit in a cab for an eternity.  I choose to walk.  5 points has those same options now, and it's agreed that adding more will result in more congestion, but really, park a few blocks away and take the time to walk around 5 points.  You may just find something/somewhere that's even better than your intended destination.  You can't accidentally walk into a cool looking venue when your driving around LOOKING for a parking spot.

Yes.  The parking issue is completely out of hand, and these requirements for so much parking are the biggest drivers for demolition.  In my opinion, i don't think that a neighborhood can be both historic and comply with the ridiculous suburban parking ethos at the same time

I agree.  The parking argument is weak.  It is not hard to find parking in the area.  Do we really want to start adding parking lots all over the place.  Look how that worked for downtown.  We don't need to always bow to the automobile.

[jtrophy]

Anyway, 200 Riverside is now breaking ground soon and will include a Courtyard by Marriott hotel along with a park in the immediate area.  That could help things in Brooklyn but a streetcar would kick things into high gear.


1st - I'll believe 200 Riverside when I see it.... for now that excavator they have out there looks to be able to dig a small septic tank.  Personally I think something's fishy with that.

2nd- If that is true - then Chew's wouldn't be nearly the risk eh ? with that Blue Cross , Everbank , Fidelity, Haskell AND 200 Riverside and a Marriott hotel all within walking distance to 339 Park St ?

again , it takes me back to Donald Trump trying to get a loan so he hired 10 dumptrucks to cart dirt from one end of a property to another just to make it look like they were doing something.  Have you seen that excavator at 200 Riverside ?? omg

[thelakelander]

2nd- If that is true - then Chew's wouldn't be nearly the risk eh ? with that Blue Cross , Everbank , Fidelity, Haskell AND 200 Riverside and a Marriott hotel all within walking distance to 339 Park St ?

Looking at the two sites, there is a huge difference in terms of immediate environment and connectivity, for a use that won't be an anchor.  For a restaurant, the existing foot traffic and number of complementing businesses immediately adjacent are huge positives, so it really comes down to the fact that Five Points is a destination in and of itself.  Although Park Street has potential, whoever goes in there first has to be willing to fight it out to make it a destination.  That type of risk isn't for everyone.

[fieldafm]

Anyway, 200 Riverside is now breaking ground soon and will include a Courtyard by Marriott hotel along with a park in the immediate area.  That could help things in Brooklyn but a streetcar would kick things into high gear.

And a small ampitheatre-like feature that will be attached to the existing park at Forrest.

Although Park Street has potential, whoever goes in there first has to be willing to fight it out to make it a destination.  That type of risk isn't for everyone.

Exactly.  If the dog park was opened up, and Annie Lyttle had a viable use and was connected to Riverside Park... this would at least stimulate something.  But right now, that intersection gets no foot traffic to speak of, and really doesn't get much spillover from the traffic flow passing Pizza Palace into 5 Points.

Not to mention that this building is within 50' feet of where MJ and JTA think our vintage streetcar line will pass! Although the designer of this place has a solid wall facing Oak

That is really the worst part of the design IMO.  Margaret is already not pedestrian friendly on that stretch... this would further that isolation if/when a streetcar line gets built on that thoroughfare.

1st - I'll believe 200 Riverside when I see it.... for now that excavator they have out there looks to be able to dig a small septic tank.  Personally I think something's fishy with that.

One thing they do have, which makes it believable, is an option with Marriott which puts them in line for bank approval.  Brooklyn Park never had jack.

[tufsu1]

200 Riverside also has financing lined up....all they needed were signed leases for 70% of the office space...and they now have that.

[jtrophy]

200 Riverside also has financing lined up....all they needed were signed leases for 70% of the office space...and they now have that.

Well thats great then !  I knew they needed that 3 years ago, but I hadn't heard they reached that pre-signed finally.  Maybe Brooklyn will have a chance ... We hated to leave our building.