Changes coming to Riverside Trolley Bus

[JeffreyS]

Yes do not make good plans dependant on halfass plans.

[Coolyfett]

im a lil meh on this.....buses...buses....a bus with no windows..

[Ocklawaha]

I can hardly wait!

30 minute headways are a huge improvement for JTA, but like Doc say's, close but no cigar!  You can not test market a 10 minute headway service by sticking to 30 or 40 minute headways.  The way to break with this stigma of BUS=BASIC TACKY ACCOMMODATION is not to dress it like a rolling whorehouse and call it a "Trolley", it's to fix the schedule and make sure the stops and equipment are top notch. In fact the new "BRT" shouldn't stand for "BASIC - RUDIMENTARY - TRANSIT", rather it really should be rapid in both headways and speed.

Speed and schedule concerns? If I send out counters to watch my buses, if the schedule says 3:42 that doesn't mean 3:41, and it sure as hell doesn't mean 3:43+ unless there is an iron clad reason! What time does the 3:10 to Yuma pull in JTA? In railroad speak? That means the wheel stops as the second hand sweeps over the 12 at precisely 3:10. This would be the advantage of a 24/7/365 JTA, where a Mike Blaylock, Mike Miller or James Boyle, might step on any bus, any route, any stop, at 2:10 AM, with a visible stop watch in hand.

Bottom line? JTA says it wants BRT, so lets act like it. There is NOTHING in the way of running fast, frequent, comfortable, close headway, buses in town right now.  This route, not BRT but more of an urban type route should be among several that get greatly enhanced headways, and better equipment. Ditto for everything close in. Closer more densely populated routes should get the super close headways, BRT next, and so forth, this isn't rocket science but sometimes I think it might as well be. If they really want this to sing, it should go into the business district at Fairfax, and loop the Roosevelt Plaza. This would put business and shopping at both ends with heavy dense residential in the middle.

Remember the route (or damn close to it) was created by a streetcar company with 8 minute headways. History tells us even that wasn't good enough and the City forced the company to go to 5 minute headways! Sure is a good thing they converted it to the new improved, flexible, diesel bus products...


Cane back seats with leatherette cushions.


REAL Leather anyone?

Due to the streetcar, OAK is NOT a good choice for this morphodite-bus-potato chip truck-thing, it is still underlain with railroad ties from the streetcar days and is already quite the corduroy road. Sitting on the fake wooden trolley seats (many of the real ones were plush velvet or leather) bouncing over that road should shake the fillings from your teeth. Not to mention that a bad road should shorten the life expenctcy of this bastard child of the transit world to about 3 weeks. We could at least place bets on which piece of glued on plastic wood will fall on passenger X first.

OCKLAWAHA

[Timkin]

Badass! This is awesome news! I have set up an event on Facebook to show the numbers of people planning to go. If you're on Facebook and are planning to attend, add yourself to the list or leave a public comment. There is a video and other resources on the FB event too.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=137423262954585

We are trying to get a critical mass of people to use their lunch break on Friday to show support for transit options besides that are not busses. If you want more transit options in Jacksonville, this is your chance. So pack and lunch or eat at your desk and come represent at JTA on Friday!

Damn Joey! IT'S A FREAKING BUS...

NOT A STREETCAR

NOT A TROLLEY

NOT EVEN A DECENT FAKE

IT'S ANOTHER STINKING,

CLINKING, CLANKING, CLATTERING,

COLLECTION OF CALIGINOUS JTA JUNK!

Think I'm going to start a facebook page for deluded people! If you think trading wooden fake trolley seats for somewhat comfortable bus seats is an improvement, I've got a bridge for you!


OCKLAWAHA

 Ock's  Descriptions are uniquely Ocklawaha!!

[9a is my backyard]

Despite the possibility of JTA not executing properly on this, it does seem there's a shift within the agency in their thinking when it comes to planning.  They're starting to think about attracting people who don't necessarily HAVE to take the bus (crazy idea, huh??).  Does anyone else share this feeling or am I being overly optimistic?

I take the bus to work from Riverside to the Southside on occasion but it's just not really convenient.  I have to walk about a half mile at least to the bus in Riverside and about a mile from the nearest stop to my office.  That's on top of the fact that I start work at 8 but my only options are to get there around 7:30 or 8:15. 

Not perfect, not close, but slowly getting better - JTA

[fieldafm]

If they really want this to sing, it should go into the business district at Fairfax, and loop the Roosevelt Plaza. This would put business and shopping at both ends with heavy dense residential in the middle.

That's a good point Ock!

[tufsu1]

30 minute headways are a huge improvement for JTA, but like Doc say's, close but no cigar!  You can not test market a 10 minute headway service by sticking to 30 or 40 minute headways. 

I doubt the proposed streetcar would run on 10-minute headways....I'm expecting 15 minutes at best (fyi....the Tampa line now runs on 15-20 minute headways).

Remember folks...going from 60 minutes to 30 minutes requires an additional vehicle + drivers....the operating and maintenance cost of that is over $100,000 per year (not including vehicle purchase)....the same is true when going from 30 to 15...or 20 to 10.

[thelakelander]

From the article

Part of the proposed Jacksonville Transportation Authority’s, September service modification, would include combining resources from our WS1 and current Riverside Trolley routes.  The proposal would save operating costs associated with both and provide improved trolley service beginning with a new early morning and continuing through to early evening hours.  Additionally, the proposal would include a fare increase from $0.50 to $1.00 however; service will also be available on Saturday with less frequent service.

There are a few things in this quote that would be good for the public to ask tomorrow.

1. What are the current operating costs for the WS1 and Riverside PCT?

2. What are the current headways for the WS1 and Riverside PCT?

3. What are the estimated operational savings of the combined service as proposed?

4. What would be the additional operational cost for a combined service with 15-minute headways during peak hours?

5. What would be the additional operational cost for a combined service with 15-minute headways all day?

Withouth having knowledge of this type of information it's hard to judge how easy or difficult it would be to run a reliable user friendly service where riders won't have to worry about spaced out headways.

[ChriswUfGator]

Yes the 30-minute turnarounds are considered acceptable by the people who have no choice but to ride the bus. The whole idea here is to draw a different crowd to use the service, not to continue milking JTA's crowd of "last-resorts" e.g., people who ride the bus because they can't afford a car. There aren't too many of those left in Riverside.

If this thing has any hope of becoming more than just another trashy bus, it needs to have a 10-15min headway max and needs to change its route to serve the Northern section of King Street (where all the bars are) and Park Street. Riverside Ave. isn't going to attract any riders at those hours, the only reason it has riders now are the people who don't have cars but need to go the medical offices. That traffic dries up outside of business hours.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, are you now leading us into streetcar math? To wit, Take a streetcar weighing 25 tons, and geared for 40 miles per hour on the level, and capable of a schedule speed of 20 miles per hour including stops and slow downs. This car should ascend a 1,000 foot, 5% grade such as is found just south of Saint Vincents in 40 seconds at 17 miles per hour. In that time it gains an elevation of 50 feet and increased it's potential energy 2,500,000 foot pounds at the top of the grade. To pull this off the motors must develop 108 HP and under optium conditions the power feed must be no less then 216 HP during the time it takes to surmount the grade.

A better engineered roadway, with a grade the same length at only 3% makes for drastic changes in our math. The car now would obtain an elevation of 30 feet and develop 1,500,000 foot pounds of energy at the top of the grade. The car can now maintain 21 miles per hour for the 30 seconds it would take to surmount the grade. The power required from the motors would be 92 HP and the power station would feed no less then 182 HP.

Time saved in example 2 is 10 seconds and the output of the feed station would be the difference of 216 and 182 HP, or 34 HP for 30 seconds and 216 HP for 10 seconds. Even if JEA charged only .01 cent per HP of energy delivered, this would still amount to a savings in example 2 of .0088 every time a car surmounted the hill. Factor in the true cost of energy x the number of short steep grades and you come up with something like a true cost of operation, less expenses for car, labor, etc...

Bottom line TU, if we don't make the freaking effort, we'll really never know what our transit system can do. Ridership estimates are just lucky guesses at best, and can be catastrophic at worst (Skyway). I say choose a few close in lines, well fed by dense urban population, other transit routes and adjacent businesses, and give it a 6 month trial. No one expects to see 5 minute headways again in our lifetime, but 10 - 15 isn't all that far from what the PCT does today.

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

lake, did you go to the Hearing and raise those points?

[thelakelander]

I'm just getting back to town after a brief trip to Lakeland.  However, I do plan to attend tomorrow.

[Mattius92]

interesting plan, now bring on the trolley, and eventually the return of streetcars!!

[thelakelander]

Lunch trolley to expand; may cost more
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-07-22/story/lunch-trolley-expand-may-cost-more

Monthly bus ridership for the Riverside Trolley, a bus service from downtown to Five Points, during fiscal 2010:

October 2009: 5,491

November 2009: 4,685

December 2009: 4,228

January 2010: 3,934

February 2010: 3,295

March 2010: 4,285

April 2010: 4,577

May 2010: 4,538

June 2010: 5,329

Monthly bus ridership for the WS1 bus route during fiscal 2010. This route takes people from downtown to Jacksonville NAS while going through Avondale and Ortega:

October 2009: 3,665

November 2009: 3,208

December 2009: 3,279

January 2010: 3,143

February 2010: 3,032

March 2010: 3,718

April 2010: 3,372

May 2010: 3,309

June 2010: 3,463

Source: JTA

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority will have two meetings today on planned changes to the city's bus route, from 11 a.m.-1 p.m. and 4-6 p.m. Both meetings will be at the JTA offices at 100 N. Myrtle Ave. The first hour of both meetings will be an open-house format. A formal presentation on the changes will occur at noon and 5 p.m. People who cannot attend the meetings can still give public comment by e-mailing Kent Stover, JTA Service Planning Manager, at kstover@jtafla.com. All comments must be sent by the end of the day today.

[Doctor_K]

Interesting that the shorter/more compact route, running for only part of the day 5 days a week, gets better ridership than a 'full' bus line.
Probably because?:
1. It serves a target demographic
2. It serves a target geographic area
3. Headways under 40 minutes

Based on these numbers, and IMO, integrating WS1 with the PCT route and finding a not-so-happy-medium between the two lines' existing headways will serve to kill both. 

Fail.