Author Topic: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession  (Read 16346 times)

FactCheck

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2010, 03:35:59 PM »
The rape and destruction of the unique forest of palms in Palm Valley at the bridge by FDOT was just a precursor of things to come.  Another part of old Florida forever lost.  Sad, very sad.

I haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of.  I had no idea it had been destroyed.  This really breaks my heart.

And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties.  Sad, very sad indeed.

Finehoe, a glimpse of the before although, unfortunately, it doesn't really show the palm forest one went through approaching the bridge.






And, the concrete monster, sans palm trees, of the present:









The PARC GROUP
I say, if the developers want it then let them pay for it.  Entirely.  No subsidies, no tax breaks, no incentives.

I also am saddened by the loss of the Palm Trees. Who cares if the residents of Ponte Vedra needed a new hurricane evacuation route? The trees are much more important!

CS Foltz

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2010, 03:45:24 PM »
FatCheck I agree! That little draw bridge was cute..........not to mention your right about the missing Palms! There used to be quite a few little draw bridges on both the east coast and the west coast in Florida. You go past Panama City, Ft Walton and beyond about a half a dozen from what I remember before you went past Shark Island to head into St Marks/Tallahassee.

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2010, 05:55:57 PM »
Quote
I also am saddened by the loss of the Palm Trees. Who cares if the residents of Ponte Vedra needed a new hurricane evacuation route? The trees are much more important!

Hmmm... did residents of Ponte Vedra move there for the palm trees or to set a world record in the Olympic "Hurricane Evacuation" event?  Maybe if someone cared, they could have had both but that might have taken a few minutes of thinking which our knee jerk road builders don't seem to have the ability to do.

If Hurricane Evacuation is the only consideration, let's build a road and bridge for every household.  That will move 'em out even faster.  Of course, if Ponte Vedrans are that concerned, maybe they shouldn't live along a Florida coastline to begin with.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

reednavy

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2010, 06:32:14 PM »
Meh, GW will rise the sea and kill the trees then end of that.

Seriously though, the amount of traffic load that the original bridge was built for and needed to be replaced. Also, think if you were on either side of the bridge and had an emergency, but the EMS couldn't get there in time because the bridge was open.

While I like that orignal bridge's look, it had become obsolete and had to be replaced.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 06:35:53 PM by reednavy »
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stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2010, 07:28:28 PM »
Seriously though, the amount of traffic load that the original bridge was built for and needed to be replaced. Also, think if you were on either side of the bridge and had an emergency, but the EMS couldn't get there in time because the bridge was open.

While I like that orignal bridge's look, it had become obsolete and had to be replaced.

Reed, see the Bridge of Lions replacement plan in St. Augustine.  Of course, it only came about because people who cared made FDOT admit to being able to do what they had insisted wasn't feasible. It does show what can happen when the pedal meets the metal.

FDOT's standard utilitarian bridge designs are equivalent to the McDonalds of bridge building.  See I-95/Fuller Warren Bridge in Jax for the same design as Palm Valley on a larger scale.  Real creativity at work here.  ???






« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 10:37:16 PM by stjr »
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

reednavy

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2010, 08:06:38 PM »
Well, St Augustine was also a bit different in that there was no room for what was neede, a four lane bridge w/o a draw.

The Palm Valey bridge serves it's purpose, but could've had better design elements. Apparently nobody out there cared, and just wanted it done quick.
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buckethead

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2010, 09:12:04 PM »
Now you guys are in my neck of the woods. The draw bridge was charming, but horribly over-utilized as well as treacherously narrow. Remember; Nease High School was fed by it, and now Ponte Vedra High School is as well. I would have prefferred a more northerly corridor than Nocatee Pkwy provided, but the Racetrack Road extension will offer that, once completed. Being done BTW, with private dollars.

As for the St Augustine Bridge of Lions:

Building a new bridge, to then tear down the old bridge, to rebuild a new bridge to replicate the outdated, over-utilized old bridge, and finally, tearing down the newly built bridge, seems like mismanagement of resources to me.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 09:14:54 PM by buckethead »

tufsu1

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2010, 09:49:22 PM »
As for the St Augustine Bridge of Lions:

Building a new bridge, to then tear down the old bridge, to rebuild a new bridge to replicate the outdated, over-utilized old bridge, and finally, tearing down the newly built bridge, seems like mismanagement of resources to me.

good point...it is important to note that the reconstructed Bridge of Lions will cost far more than a simple new bridge would have...now I'm all for that if its what the people want...just remember that every time the waste of tax dollars argument comes up!

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2010, 10:34:16 PM »
Quote
Building a new bridge, to then tear down the old bridge, to rebuild a new bridge to replicate the outdated, over-utilized old bridge, and finally, tearing down the newly built bridge, seems like mismanagement of resources to me.

Quote
good point...it is important to note that the reconstructed Bridge of Lions will cost far more than a simple new bridge would have...now I'm all for that if its what the people want...just remember that every time the waste of tax dollars argument comes up!

Tufsu and Buckethead, unlike Jax, some communities consider architecture and design a valuable part of their economy and quality of life.  St. Augustine's architecture, not just its history, is an essential part of the charm and ambiance that draws all those tourists who drive a major part of its economy and attracts residents to the area.

Don't tell me that people don't move to Ponte Vedra, in part, for the Old Florida vegetation unique to the area.  Destroying one of the best examples of that IS an impairment of what Ponte Vedra is and thus a diminishment of its value.  How iconic and unique it would have been had a new Palm Valley bridge done in an Old Florida or Spanish style design sitting amidst a preserved and one-of-a-kind palm forest serving as the major "gateway" to the Ponte Vedra Community been built.  It could have become a signature as special as the 17th hole at TPC.

The idea that good design is not a value worthy of investment is shortsighted.  Just ask Apple how to make $$$ on design.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

buckethead

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2010, 12:02:49 AM »
Real estate values in Ponte Vedra are relativley strong, fwiw.

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2010, 12:12:50 AM »
Real estate values in Ponte Vedra are relativley strong, fwiw.

Maybe, but, generally, far less than comparable "national market" properties in the I-4 and South Florida market, California, etc.  My real point isn't what current values are but what they could be.  Don't forget the boost to businesses from increased tourism, etc.  A unique identity that is instantly recognizable would be a major economic booster.  Just ask the PGA what #17 does for them.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

Dog Walker

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2010, 08:59:46 AM »
FDOT just can't win with you guys.  Preserve the appearance and height of the Bridge of Lions; it's a waste of taxpayers money.  Replace an undistinguished bridge that was a danger to motorists and boaters with a modern, efficient bridge; they have missed a chance to put distinguishing architectural features on it.

If they had spent money putting statues and columns on the Palm Valley Bridge, you would probably be fussing about the waste of taxpayers' money.

If they had not put up the temporary bridge in St. Augustine, you would probably be blaming them for all of the failed businesses on St. Augustine Beach.

IMO, Nocatee is an abomination and both bridge projects were well thought out and appropriate for where they are.
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Springfield Girl

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2010, 01:22:46 PM »
I was suprised when I looked at the pictures. The landscaping, roads and ammenities looked nice but the houses were just standard, run of the mill, suburban stock. I thought the homes were supposed to be more upscale with more architectural interest.

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2010, 02:36:38 PM »
FDOT just can't win with you guys....IMO, Nocatee is an abomination and both bridge projects were well thought out and appropriate for where they are.

Dog, as a public agency, it is a given that FDOT, JTA, etc. will be criticized from all sides.  That comes with the job (just like the criticism leveled at players and coaches for the Jags) and should not, in and of itself, intimidate them.

What is more important, is listening to the substantive comments of all these points of view and weaving them into a product that efficiently serves its community with the greatest VALUE.  As mentioned on another MJ thread, I consider VALUE to be more than the obvious benefits (e.g. accommodating a mode of transit) of a road or bridge project but also other important intangibles such as impact on the environment, aesthetics, safety, health, sustainability, social fabric, people's time, etc.

Where FDOT, JTA, and others of their ilk open themselves up to wide ranging criticism from ALL sides is in their failure to fully consider their projects beyond the scope of just an engineer's perspective.  The voices of the community at large are effectively marginalized (public hearings be damned) and the driving forces of development at all costs are front and center.  In the end, most criticism is a byproduct of this poor process for delivering such projects.  When the process is changed for the better, the criticism will likely ratchet down (of course, never to zero) tremendously.

For a parallel example, see the heated debate over the Springfield Car Wash.  How much better does the project become and how much of the criticism dissipates when community-wide input and communications are played out on a level playing field for all the interested parties?  The absence of such mechanisms with JTA and FDOT is a big problem for our community.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

buckethead

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2010, 02:38:48 PM »
FDOT just can't win with you guys.  Preserve the appearance and height of the Bridge of Lions; it's a waste of taxpayers money.  Replace an undistinguished bridge that was a danger to motorists and boaters with a modern, efficient bridge; they have missed a chance to put distinguishing architectural features on it.

If they had spent money putting statues and columns on the Palm Valley Bridge, you would probably be fussing about the waste of taxpayers' money.

If they had not put up the temporary bridge in St. Augustine, you would probably be blaming them for all of the failed businesses on St. Augustine Beach.

IMO, Nocatee is an abomination and both bridge projects were well thought out and appropriate for where they are.
I am completely satisfied with the new palm valley bridge. I am ecstatic that it is tall enough to eliminate the need for a draw bridge. I find it aesthetically pleasing as well, in a minimalist sense. I understand that som would have turned a pine plantation into a state/national park/preserve and I am not entirely in disagreement. I do subscribe to the notion that a developer who purchases property for the purpose of developing it, should have the right to do so. As for the Bridge of Lions, (speaking of value) it is my opinion that the bridge was not so great to begin with. Better, less costly solutions were surely proposed.