Author Topic: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession  (Read 16374 times)

Overstreet

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 10:57:24 AM »
Nocatee is different than Palm Coast because it sits between two cities, Jacksonville and St Augustine. It will be a bedroom community of both. Palm Coast was/is in the middle of nowhere I-95.

Dog Walker

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2010, 11:05:39 AM »
But it was presented as its' own independent entity complete with retail and offices and jobs.  I figured at the time that they were just blowing smoke to get around the comp. plan.  It had struck me as just another suburban, bedroom community too.
When all else fails hug the dog.

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2010, 11:16:29 AM »
Nocatee is different than Palm Coast because it sits between two cities, Jacksonville and St Augustine. It will be a bedroom community of both. Palm Coast was/is in the middle of nowhere I-95.

In my mind, the only difference between the two is location, one here, one there.  Before Nocatee, that area was also the middle of nowhere. 

A "bedroom community" is the essence of urban sprawl to me.  The idea that outlying areas being developed are near other outlying areas already developed and therefore are not urban sprawl is exactly the self-serving thinking that fuels urban sprawl.  Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

cline

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2010, 11:23:22 AM »
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Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.

The problem is, where do you draw the line?  Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?

north miami

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2010, 11:44:09 AM »

Rambling discussions.

Local government was allowed to skirt around 'consistency' with the State Comp Plan/FLUM.
St.Johns county resident and recent former PZB member David Wiles has composed a telling narrative.
Formal objections lodged by opponents beginning in February 2001 are telling.

Note today I sent a note to Stephen Dare-advising of material of interest and illumination sent to his attention.

N.Miami

tufsu1

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2010, 11:47:41 AM »
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Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.

The problem is, where do you draw the line?  Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?

not to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2010, 12:12:31 PM »
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Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.

The problem is, where do you draw the line?  Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?

not to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.

Where to draw the line?  "Around existing development".  In essence, you FREEZE all current development rights at present levels. You can also refuse to build publicly paid infrastructure that enables development to thrive.  This includes roads, schools, fire and police, utilities, etc.  No one will be able to develop if they don't have access to these amenities.  There is no violation of private property rights using these strategies as nothing is being "subtracted".  We are just refusing to "add" and that is not an entitlement developers should be able to assert legally.

By example, if we refuse to build the Outer Beltway, all the mega development along its pathway will not likely come to fruition.  The property owners would have no legal right to demand the road be built while effectively being denied the opportunity to contribute to urban sprawl.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

cline

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2010, 12:30:47 PM »
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No one will be able to develop if they don't have access to these amenities.  There is no violation of private property rights using these strategies as nothing is being "subtracted"

The problem is there already is access to land and amenities.  Are you going to tell landowners that their land that once zoned single-family today will be changed to agriculture or conservation tomorrow.  What about the thousands upon thousands of homesites that have already been entitled and approved and are now just waiting to be built (Northern SJC)? 

I agree that growth needs to be managed.  I'm not sure simply drawing a line is the answer.

finehoe

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2010, 12:37:58 PM »
The rape and destruction of the unique forest of palms in Palm Valley at the bridge by FDOT was just a precursor of things to come.  Another part of old Florida forever lost.  Sad, very sad.

I haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of.  I had no idea it had been destroyed.  This really breaks my heart.

And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties.  Sad, very sad indeed.

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2010, 12:39:39 PM »
The problem is there already is access to land and amenities.  Are you going to tell landowners that their land that once zoned single-family today will be changed to agriculture or conservation tomorrow.  What about the thousands upon thousands of homesites that have already been entitled and approved and are now just waiting to be built (Northern SJC)?  

Please reread my comments.  I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".

The developer can go on and build the proposed thousands of houses.  But, good luck selling them if the Outer Beltway or other road expansions and widenings, schools, fire stations, etc. aren't built.  We, the public, are not legally obligated to be accomplices to developers in creating urban sprawl.  They bought the land without major infrastructure improvements so no one is "taking" anything from them by not building them.  Plain and simple.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

north miami

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2010, 12:40:47 PM »


not to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.
[/quote]

It is not a matter of taking away vested development rights.............it is about granting additional rights.That's what it is all about: a property owner,in seeking development 'rights',makes petition before the people's government,in hoped that the people will grant the request,or some modified result.

cline

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2010, 12:42:36 PM »
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Please reread my comments.  I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".

So basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area.  I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2010, 12:58:01 PM »
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Please reread my comments.  I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".

So basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area.  I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.
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Please reread my comments.  I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".

So basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area.  I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.

I am advocating preventing urban sprawl.  Obviously, to do so, certain development and construction can not take place.  A moratorium is a "suspension of activity".  If the shoe fits, then I wear it proudly.  In fact, if the development we are talking about is permanently prevented, such action is stronger than a moratorium which is usually temporary in nature.

St. Johns and Clay counties need to do some real soul searching and decide what they want to be "when they grow up".  If they want a quality of life akin to what attracted the current residents in those counties, they will need to reconsider how much more urban-sprawl type development they really want.  Given that there appears to be substantial residential opposition in those counties to the Outer Beltway, I would say many would be happy to live with what you call a "moratorium" or even something stronger. 

Cline, if no property rights are compromised and the public supports the actions I suggest, why would you continue to object - unless your are one of the said property owners/developers/other beneficiaries of urban sprawl development?
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!

cline

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2010, 01:06:02 PM »
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Given that there appears to be substantial residential opposition in those counties to the Outer Beltway

You speak of substantial residential opposistion to the Beltway.  I have spoken to citizens in the county who support the Beltway.  Its not like every citizen in the area opposes the Beltway like you seem to think.

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Cline, if no property rights are compromised and the public supports the actions I suggest, why would you continue to object - unless your are one of the said property owners/developers/other beneficiaries of urban sprawl development?

Of course no one would object if you don't own the land, but obviously the "said property owners" would.  That's the point of property rights.  Those owners would have to be compensated.  You can't just arbitrarily modify people's land uses and not expect to have to compensate them.

stjr

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Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2010, 01:20:31 PM »
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Given that there appears to be substantial residential opposition in those counties to the Outer Beltway

You speak of substantial residential opposistion to the Beltway.  I have spoken to citizens in the county who support the Beltway.  Its not like every citizen in the area opposes the Beltway like you seem to think.

Cline, you are not reading and/or comprehending what I am writing.  "Substantial" doesn't mean "all" so why are you making this comment?  Stop "spinning" my words.


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Cline, if no property rights are compromised and the public supports the actions I suggest, why would you continue to object - unless your are one of the said property owners/developers/other beneficiaries of urban sprawl development?

Of course no one would object if you don't own the land, but obviously the "said property owners" would.  That's the point of property rights.  Those owners would have to be compensated.  You can't just arbitrarily modify people's land uses and not expect to have to compensate them.

Again, Cline, are you not reading what I wrote or trying to put words of your convenience in my mouth?  I have just said in multiple posts above that no property rights are being interfered with.  What "rights" do you think are being taken away if the land is NOT rezoned?  There are NO modifications, just a refusal by the public to SUPPORT with their dollars a land owner/developer creating urban sprawl.  No land owner is "entitled" to be compensated for a road or school NOT being built and that was never contracted for.
Hey!  Whatever happened to just plain ol' COMMON SENSE!!