Seattle Light Rail Opens. 92,000 Celebrate

[thelakelander]

Just because there was a prior article doesnt make the information any more accurate.  You mentioned that you had made a point, but Im not sure what it was.

My point was mentioned three times in the last post.  Here is an example of that point.

Seattle is a larger and denser urban community all the way around.  However, this should not be used as an excuse to why they can pull something rail-based off and we can't.  For every dense community (Seattle, Los Angeles, NYC, Boston, New Orleans, Philly, etc.) that has invested in rail, you'll find another that is suburban (Phoenix, Charlotte, Tacoma, Little Rock, Nashville, Kenosha, etc.) and invested also.

If you want to check the accuracy of the prior article, here are links to compile the data:

1. US. Census Bureau - http://factfinder.census.gov/home/saff/main.html?_lang=en
Use this to identify census tract populations and past annual census counts.

2. COJ GIS Mapping - http://maps.coj.net/jaxgis/
Use this to identify a local map of census tract locations.

3. Historical city limit maps of Jacksonville - Jacksonville Historic Commission - Joel McEachin has maps that should be in jpeg format.  To prove they are accurate, one can also visit the Sanborn map section in the Main Public Library's Special Collections Department.

From the density numbers provided by TUFSU, I posted that the City of Jacksonville has 75% of the density of the City of Seattle, but it does have 200,000 more voters.  Do you disagree with this assessment?

I only disagree with your point that Seattle's urban area is not significantly larger or denser than Jacksonville's.  This belief is backed by official census numbers.  Other than that, I agree that whatever Seattle may be, should have no bearing on Jacksonville moving forward to create and implement a vision.

[tufsu1]

ok...my final point on this issue...

Density is a relative term....many cities, such as Washington, Baltimore, San Francisco, Seattle, etc. have not expanded their boundaries in decades (mainly because they can't)...most of these cities have run out of undeveloped land....as such, they are forced to concentrate their growth on redevelopment and densification.

Jacksonville, on the other hand, has tons of available land still....consolidation has generally been a positive, but this may be one down side. 

Or you could take the view that the suburban development would have happened anyway (which it has in every meto area) and through consolidation/annextaion, cities like Jacksonville are able to keep that growth and wealth inside their boundaries.

[thelakelander]

Taking ride on light rail still a kick a year later

Seattle Times, The (WA) - Sunday, July 18, 2010
Author: Mike Lindblom: Times transportation Reporter

Three children pressed their palms against the window during their first light-rail ride, heading south to the airport Wednesday night.

"Bacon Hill Station!" they yelled, after failing to notice the futuristic art of luminous playing cards inside the Beacon Hill Tunnel. Soon the train emerged from the tunnel to Mount Baker Station, where they somehow couldn't see the mountain. They giggled.

The novelty has yet to wear off aboard Seattle's Central Link line, which opened from downtown to Tukwila a year ago Monday. The SeaTac/Airport Station was finished in December, the end of a $2.6 billion, 16- mile line.

Sound Transit plans a low-key celebration Monday morning, distributing free breakfast bars, tickets and newspapers at several stations.

An estimated 6 million trips have been taken to date. Ridership has grown to an average 23,400 boardings per weekday in June, compared with 14,850 in September. Trains are noticeably more full.

At first it seemed Sound Transit would miss its 26,600 target by the end of this year, but that's now within reach.

Seattle transit analyst John Niles — who favors bus rapid transit over rail here — points to the bittersweet side of this story, that the regional rail system was conceived almost two decades ago, funded by voters in 1996, and has still reached only a startup phase.

Flawed estimating and enormous costs nearly killed the institution a decade ago, and it will take another dozen years, at an increased sales-tax rate, to finish three spoke lines into the suburbs.

Small niche

Because of its limited reach, Link serves a fairly small niche, relative to 3 million people and all modes of travel in the Puget Sound area. The costs of Link are far out of scale to its benefit, Niles said.

Yet it also provides an extra tool for occasional users — not just airport patrons but especially baseball and soccer fans, who add a couple thousand trips on game days, or pack the trains if a premier foreign team comes to Qwest Field.

Safety has been a pleasant surprise.

Despite four miles at surface through Rainier Valley, crash rates lag far below the possible 28 per year predicted by an early environmental statement. There have been eight minor-injury tangles with cars, three minor-injury brushes with pedestrians, a collision with a dropped safe and one trackway suicide at Sodo.

Sound Transit designed a consistent layout for crosswalks and left-turn signals to avoid a debacle like Houston's, where there were more than 100 wrecks in the opening year.

"Any accident is one too many," spokesman Bruce Gray said. "We feel the public, for the most part, is doing a good job in obeying the rules of the road."

On the other hand, a nervous operator derailed a two-car train last fall, on overhead track near the Sodo maintenance base — where fortunately, no passengers were aboard.

Noise a problem

The stickiest problem to date has been noise, where measurements in north Tukwila have reached 83 decibels, akin to standing near a kitchen garbage disposal.

The agency recently reground the rails and is installing a mile of stiff rubber noise barriers along the elevated trackway, Gray said.

Wednesday, passengers raved about the clean trains and the mountain views.

"It's always on time," said carpenter Tony Futrell, of Beacon Hill, heading to a swing shift in Bremerton. "If they have a mess up or they're doing work, they let you know a couple weeks ahead of time, so you can change your schedule."

Late-night track work last winter caused trains to run less frequently, and rush-hour congestion from buses sometimes delays trains entering the shared transit tunnel downtown .

Except for scheduled maintenance, Gray said on-time performance is above 90 percent.

"It's great. Less crowded than a bus ," said Nora Darlow, a barista. Her only gripe is with ORCA fare-card readers that fail, so she winds up paying an extra 75 cents.

The next phase is a $1.9 billion tunnel to Capitol Hill and Husky Stadium by 2016, and possibly a new south park-and-ride station that year, a mile beyond the airport.

Mike Lindblom: 206-515-5631 or mlindblom@seattletimes.com

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012384312_soundtransit18m.html

[Ocklawaha]

"Jacksonville extends Riverside PCT, Mike Miller shows up!"

OCKLAWAHA

[Jaxson]

LOL @ Ock!  I am not a fan of those potato chip truck-style 'trolleys', either.  I guess that I could do something similar and refer to my local Denny's as Bistro Aix II.   See, if we change the name, it will convince us that it really is a Bistro Aix!  Just like the PCTs are really trolleys : )

[I-10east]

I've said many times that I wouldn't mind see Jax with light rail. I'll definitely pick that option over streetcar. I don't agree with the saying "any transit is better than no transit at all" because IMO Jax's layout and large land size caters itself to light rail moreso than streetcar, which is too similar to the already existing buses (yeah, yeah I struck a nerve LOL). Seattle's narrow "isthmus like" layout definitely helps on it's light rail route, by comparasion Jax has a tall order with it's "small New England statelike" very spread out layout; There's no way of making what they have in Seattle without abandoning alot of areas in Jax. We might need two of Seattle's light rail lines (maybe a "+" style North-South East-West routes layout). Because of the very pricey cost, don't hold your breath on that completion.

[Jaxson]

I've said many times that I wouldn't mind see Jax with light rail. I'll definitely pick that option over streetcar. I don't agree with the saying "any transit is better than no transit at all" because IMO Jax's layout and large land size caters itself to light rail moreso than streetcar, which is too similar to the already existing buses (yeah, yeah I struck a nerve LOL). Seattle's narrow "isthmus like" layout definitely helps on it's light rail route, by comparasion Jax has a tall order with it's "small New England statelike" very spread out layout; There's no way of making what they have in Seattle without abandoning alot of areas in Jax. We might need two of Seattle's light rail lines (maybe a "+" style North-South East-West routes layout). Because of the very pricey cost, don't hold your breath on that completion.

I co-sign that.  At roughly half the size of Rhode Island, Jacksonville has a lot of ground to cover when it comes to addressing the needs of urban, suburban and rural areas.  I do not believe that Jacksonville has successfully crafted a policy that best serves all interests...

[thelakelander]

Rome wasn't built overnight.  We should start biting what we can afford to chew instead of figuring out how to fund a gluttonous buffet overnight.  In other words, Jax should initially stick to developing its urban core (the actual city) and connecting it with a couple of major suburban destinations through various modes of transit instead of worrying about the entire city/county.

[Ocklawaha]

Imagine, Main Street could be this ugly again!

Uh? WTF? Streetcar IS a type of LIGHT RAIL y'all.  The same vehicles that run on streetcar track can and DO run on Light Rail Track. The modern division of the terms has come to mean a LRT line built for lower speeds, frequent stops, lighter track structure, and a top speed of 30-40 mph (regulated).  LRT itself has become a modern term for the old Interurbans, which usually grew out of streetcar lines (so here we go again, Who's on First?).


ANY QUESTIONS?

It would work like this: Jacksonville builds Commuter Rail:

St. Augustine - Avenues - San Marco - Jacksonville Terminal
Green Cove Springs - Orange Park - Yukon - Jacksonville Terminal
Airport Road - Busch - 21 St - Shand's - Jacksonville Terminal

Streetcar:

Downtown - Jacksonville Terminal - Brooklyn - 5 Points - Riverside
Jacksonville Terminal - Downtown (circulation route) - Main Street - Shand's
Downtown - Stadium
Brooklyn - Durkeeville

Skyway:

San Marco (Commuter Rail Station) - Southbank - Central Station - East Bay - A. P. Randolph/Stadium area
Shand's - new VA facility - FSCJ - Hemming Plaza - Central Station - Jacksonville Terminal
Central Station - Brooklyn - Riverside (PS-4, Annie Lytle Transit Center)

Light Rail:

Jacksonville Beach - Arlington - Stadium Area (to Jacksonville Terminal via streetcar route)
Orange Park West - Argyle - Yukon - Ortega - Riverside - Jacksonville Terminal (via streetcar route)

DING! DING!

OCKLAWAHA

[Jaxson]

I've said many times that I wouldn't mind see Jax with light rail. I'll definitely pick that option over streetcar. I don't agree with the saying "any transit is better than no transit at all" because IMO Jax's layout and large land size caters itself to light rail moreso than streetcar, which is too similar to the already existing buses (yeah, yeah I struck a nerve LOL). Seattle's narrow "isthmus like" layout definitely helps on it's light rail route, by comparasion Jax has a tall order with it's "small New England statelike" very spread out layout; There's no way of making what they have in Seattle without abandoning alot of areas in Jax. We might need two of Seattle's light rail lines (maybe a "+" style North-South East-West routes layout). Because of the very pricey cost, don't hold your breath on that completion.

I co-sign that.  At roughly half the size of Rhode Island, Jacksonville has a lot of ground to cover when it comes to addressing the needs of urban, suburban and rural areas.  I do not believe that Jacksonville has successfully crafted a policy that best serves all interests...

The alternative is to continue our present course, spend 50 times the amount of money on highway and maintenance, and still not solve any of the problems,  Sorry boys, but hand wringing over the imaginary 'light rail v street car' issue doesnt get it.

I am one of the last people who would support building and/or expanding roads and highways in our city.  My point is that our city is so spread out among various interests that it is currently a challenge to convice someone in Baldwin, Bayard or the Beaches that it would be in our mutual benefit to support mass transit in the core city. 
I agree with stephendare that any progress with light rail will have to be done initially in increments.  I also believe that now is the time to get started.  Instead, our city's leaders are sitting on their hands. 

[I-10east]

I've said many times that I wouldn't mind see Jax with light rail. I'll definitely pick that option over streetcar. I don't agree with the saying "any transit is better than no transit at all" because IMO Jax's layout and large land size caters itself to light rail moreso than streetcar, which is too similar to the already existing buses (yeah, yeah I struck a nerve LOL). Seattle's narrow "isthmus like" layout definitely helps on it's light rail route, by comparasion Jax has a tall order with it's "small New England statelike" very spread out layout; There's no way of making what they have in Seattle without abandoning alot of areas in Jax. We might need two of Seattle's light rail lines (maybe a "+" style North-South East-West routes layout). Because of the very pricey cost, don't hold your breath on that completion.

huh?

you literally do not understand the issues on this, I 10

Rome wasn't built overnight.  We should start biting what we can afford to chew instead of figuring out how to fund a gluttonous buffet overnight.  In other words, Jax should initially stick to developing its urban core (the actual city) and connecting it with a couple of major suburban destinations through various modes of transit instead of worrying about the entire city/county.

I totally agree. I even said don't hold your breath on the final completion of that big light rail project that I've mentioned; I was looking at the "big picture" hopefully a coupla decades from now if we're lucky. I dunno what Stepen think that I don't understand; I have a feeling if I said "2+2=4" Stephen would think that a didn't understand that either. I'm sorry for having an opinion. I disagree with alot what you say Stephen, but I don't go on and ramble about how you're wrong, and you don't "understand" on every one of your posts. 

[I-10east]

I find it funny that Lake said 'gluttonous buffet"(no shot at Lake BTW, he's an awesome poster) To me a "gluttonous buffet" is having the existing buses, ASE with light rail, streetcar, high speed bullet trains, blimps, gondolas; Okay, I was being a lil' sarcastic on the last couple, but seriously IMO it's either light rail or streetcar atleast for the near future. Where is all of this money coming from to get both?

[Ocklawaha]

I find it funny that Lake said 'gluttonous buffet"(no shot at Lake BTW, he's an awesome poster) To me a "gluttonous buffet" is having the existing buses, ASE with light rail, streetcar, high speed bullet trains, blimps, gondolas; Okay, I was being a lil' sarcastic on the last couple, but seriously IMO it's either light rail or streetcar atleast for the near future. Where is all of this money coming from to get both?

YES, yes and yes...  The fact is we'll need most all of it to create a system. For example you wouldn't want Amtrak running from Shand's to Bay and Newnan! The Skyway from Downtown to the Beach would also be insanely costly. Can't you just see the Skyway down the center of Riverside Avenue? Light Rail to West Orange Park/Argyle makes a hell of a lot more sense then another 12 lanes on Blanding, but a streetcar to St. Augustine would be a loser.

MIX!

Mix is the key word that Lake and I keep hammering on here. A good transit "system" includes various modes all connecting to form grids, each one doing what it does best and where it fits best.

Nobody ever said it would be done all at once, overnight, quick or any such thing, that just isn't reality. However to plan for only one system without consideration given to key interchange points, junctions, multi-modal mix and such is suicide.

The way to pull this off correctly without having to constantly go back in and rip out new infrastructure (see the Lee Street Viaduct) is to build mile by mile, mode by mode, already having your dots connected on the bigger picture map.


OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

BTW, my constant reference to LIGHTER THEN AIR aviation is due to my belief that it's BACK! Several major companies have built and launched new blimps or rigid airships, including Zeppelin Corp, Cargo Lifter, and Boeing.
More are on the drawing boards, but thus far, only the test fields in Germany and the California High Desert have seen any of the really big ships going through their paces. Zeppelin's NT ship's are already in commercial passenger service in California MOFFETT FIELD, and in Germany.

My vision is simply WATCH THIS TECHNOLOGY and be the first coastal port city to jump on the wagon when the high priority, higher speed 100+ mph airship service starts up. I wonder if we could capture some of that R&D at Cecil Field? Could we become the new "AKRON" of the airship world?  GO FOR IT JAX! The worst that can happen is we have a nice facility for the port/airport authorities, and spend a few bucks on travel and wine!

Of course we could always sit on our hands while Orlando, Tampa, Miami and Brunswick score on these...

For Example:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/10611420
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=hVNV-FFUOnc&feature=related


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I find it funny that Lake said 'gluttonous buffet"(no shot at Lake BTW, he's an awesome poster) To me a "gluttonous buffet" is having the existing buses, ASE with light rail, streetcar, high speed bullet trains, blimps, gondolas; Okay, I was being a lil' sarcastic on the last couple, but seriously IMO it's either light rail or streetcar atleast for the near future. Where is all of this money coming from to get both?

We already have the ASE and bus so we're not starting from scratch.  There are plans to enhance Amtrak's offerings throughout the state and the majority of those costs would be provided by the Feds.  From what I understand, the Downtown BRT service is funded and construction will begin in 2011.  If the 2030 Mobility Plan gets adopted by council later this year, it could help fund initial investments in streetcar and commuter rail lines within five years.  Extensions of all these systems could come with the help of Federal and State grants, BIDs or through the passing of some sort of sales tax, etc.  Currently, there's no plan for LRT that you're describing, thus such a service could be decades down the road after the modes mentioned above come online.  So the answer to your question is that money will come from from a variety of sources and that these projects will grow incrementally.