Author Topic: America Rediscovers The Streetcar  (Read 12096 times)

brainstormer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 795
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2009, 04:57:39 PM »
Right on, Lake!  ;D

heights unknown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (HOT DAMMIT!) YES...SUPER TALLS!!!
    • FRESH START SOCIAL SERVICE AGENCY
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2009, 05:34:39 PM »
There are cities that are developing streetcar systems, commuter rail, commuter rail lines, etc. that are much smaller than Jax urban wise and metro wise (in population), so, it's got to be our governmental leadership, focus and vision, not to mention poor planning that is the problem. I guess we'll start growing "big gonads" when Peyton and company moves on (hopefully).

Heights Unknown
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ACCESS MY PERSONAL FACEBOOK PAGE AT: https://www.facebook.com/garrybernardcoston.personal/ or, access my Social Service national/world wide page if you love supporting charities/social entities at: http://www.freshstartsocialagency.com; thank you!!!

mtraininjax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5414
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2009, 06:05:47 PM »
Quote
Jacksonville needs rail now, more than ever.

Jacksonville has rail, its called the Skyway, and it cost $184 MILLION dollars to complete in 2000.

Building rail in Jacksonville is a money sucking venture that the city, nor taxpayers can afford, or need. JCCI showed in 2008 in the quality of life study that 65% of the respondents faced a DAILY commute of 25 minutes or less. So why again do we need to spend millions on something when time is really not the issue? AND most of the people who had the longest commute times were to outside counties. Does Baker, St. Johns, or Nassau have the extra money to help pay for rail?

If you can successfully lobby to get HSR built and profitible in the FIRST year, I will jump on your bandwagon.
And, that $115 will save Jacksonville from financial ruin. - Mayor John Peyton

“This is a game-changer. This is what I mean when I say taking Jacksonville to the next level.”
-Mayor Alvin Brown on new video boards at Everbank Field

DevilsAdvocate

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2009, 09:28:13 PM »
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

Also, the Skyway doesn't have rail.  Those cars actually run on rubber wheels.  So get your facts straight.

civil42806

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2009, 09:35:15 PM »
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

Also, the Skyway doesn't have rail.  Those cars actually run on rubber wheels.  So get your facts straight.

because people actually use the roads?  I don't have a problem with public transportation that doesn't make a profit, look at the bus system.  I do object to a system that consumes huge amounts of money, is ugly as hell, a blight on the downtown landscape, that no one uses, and I don't care where you run it, within downtown,regardless of how many feeders lines you send to it I just dont see people using it. 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 09:40:41 PM by civil42806 »

tufsu1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11248
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2009, 09:44:54 PM »
do you see folks using the Outer Beltway....for $12 each way?

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32954
    • Modern Cities
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2009, 10:49:07 PM »
Quote
Jacksonville needs rail now, more than ever.

Jacksonville has rail, its called the Skyway, and it cost $184 MILLION dollars to complete in 2000.

This is rail:






This is a horizontal elevator that doesn't go anywhere - fixed, but not really rail:






Quote
Building rail in Jacksonville is a money sucking venture that the city, nor taxpayers can afford, or need. JCCI showed in 2008 in the quality of life study that 65% of the respondents faced a DAILY commute of 25 minutes or less. So why again do we need to spend millions on something when time is really not the issue? AND most of the people who had the longest commute times were to outside counties. Does Baker, St. Johns, or Nassau have the extra money to help pay for rail?

I'd favor an investment in rail strictly for its ability to facilitate sustainable growth and the dense redevelopment of areas where public infrastructure is already in place.  However, since you want to focus on commutes, our burbs (Clay, St. Johns and Nassau) have some of the longest commutes in the State.  So if it came to investing +$2 billion in the Outer Beltway or $158 million for commuter rail connecting Clay with Duval, we'll stretch our dollar out more with rail and preserve environmentally sensitive land in the process.

Quote
If you can successfully lobby to get HSR built and profitable in the FIRST year, I will jump on your bandwagon.

I'm not in favor of high speed rail in the current format.  I believe we'll get more bang for our buck enhancing Amtrak.  However, high speed rail, streetcars and commuter rail are all different issues.  So what rail component are you truly against?  Point that one out and we can discuss the pros and cons of that particular corridor or transit technology.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32954
    • Modern Cities
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2009, 10:52:05 PM »
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

Also, the Skyway doesn't have rail.  Those cars actually run on rubber wheels.  So get your facts straight.

because people actually use the roads?  I don't have a problem with public transportation that doesn't make a profit, look at the bus system.  I do object to a system that consumes huge amounts of money, is ugly as hell, a blight on the downtown landscape, that no one uses, and I don't care where you run it, within downtown,regardless of how many feeders lines you send to it I just dont see people using it. 

What's your position on more affordable and visually attractive mass transit options, such as streetcars?
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

mtraininjax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5414
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2009, 11:04:32 PM »
Quote
However, since you want to focus on commutes, our burbs (Clay, St. Johns and Nassau) have some of the longest commutes in the State.

Maybe they are, but that is their choice. The JCCI study did not focus on the people living outside Duval, only those inside. So if those counties want to spend millions per mile on light rail, over the hiring and maintaining of school systems, be my guest. No need to spend millions for a transportation solution that will suck hundreds of millions AND HAS, SKYWAY, with little to no return to the community.

The fact here is that the only rail system, albeit above ground, has failed miserably. The only way your rail system gets built is with private money. Anybody fill the piggy banks yet?
And, that $115 will save Jacksonville from financial ruin. - Mayor John Peyton

“This is a game-changer. This is what I mean when I say taking Jacksonville to the next level.”
-Mayor Alvin Brown on new video boards at Everbank Field

mtraininjax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5414
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2009, 11:09:56 PM »
Quote
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

184 million dollars for a system that 2200 people ride a month. That is the form of public transportation that resonates with voters as a FAILURE. Call it a monorail, people mover, trolley upside down, it does not matter. The fact is that for the 2.5 mile FAILURE, it cost 184 million dollars, in 2000 funds, and is still a failure.

How do you propose to get past this as problem? Who will run rail in jacksonville, since JTA controlls all transportation in a large public form? I'd much rather have the JTA lose a little money, than fork over another 100 million per mile for something that is 1) Not needed according to the JCCI, and 2) would drain 1/3 of the City budget if built.

Imaging police officers for hire to the highest bidder, imaging firemen who go to fires based on who can write them a check. It will happen if we boondoggle the city with uneeded transportation projects. The police and fire suck up most of the budget now, imaging taking half of theirs to pay for a rail system?

Its OK to dream, but dream with someone elses money.
And, that $115 will save Jacksonville from financial ruin. - Mayor John Peyton

“This is a game-changer. This is what I mean when I say taking Jacksonville to the next level.”
-Mayor Alvin Brown on new video boards at Everbank Field

Lunican

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3997
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2009, 11:26:57 PM »
Mtrain, while Skyway ridership is low, your numbers are wrong.

Also, Charlotte is dreaming with our money...




JeffreyS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5932
  • Demand Evidence and Think Critically.
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2009, 11:36:02 PM »
I get the feeling Mtrain knows no one is advocating a system here that is 100 mil per mile. Lake pointed out specifically a system less than one tenth of that cost we should emulate. I think he knows the transit consultant on this site who was in the biz when the skyway was proposed lobbied against it for a cheap much farther reaching streetcar system. I believe he knows the people mover skyway that he loves to quote the price of is no more replaced by cheaper monorail. I think he sees pros of using Amtrak to start the ball at a lesser cost. I do believe he really thinks mass transit even cheaper modes will not benefit Jax the way many of us do. His debating skills while sad do set Lake up to dispell so many misconceptions. For that I thank Mtrain and hope he will be able to figure out skyway doesn't represent all mass transit and their costs and benefits anymore than the cost and usefulness of some exotic sports car represents all auto transportation.
Lenny Smash

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32954
    • Modern Cities
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2009, 11:39:00 PM »
Quote
However, since you want to focus on commutes, our burbs (Clay, St. Johns and Nassau) have some of the longest commutes in the State.

Maybe they are, but that is their choice. The JCCI study did not focus on the people living outside Duval, only those inside. So if those counties want to spend millions per mile on light rail, over the hiring and maintaining of school systems, be my guest. No need to spend millions for a transportation solution that will suck hundreds of millions AND HAS, SKYWAY, with little to no return to the community.

Duval is not an island, so how our bedroom communities develop impacts Jacksonville greatly, so maybe the JCCI should conduct a more extensive study.  Rail cars do not run on rubber wheels.  You'll get no argument from me that there are better transit investments out there than overbuilt people mover technology.  Again, the skyway is a different animal from a streetcar or commuter rail.  I don't know why you feel so inclined to put them in the same category.  You're basically comparing dirt roads with the Dames Point Bridge and calling them the same thing.  An insane and illogical argument at best.

As for the JCCI study (please provide a link, btw), economic development is one of the major reasons for investing in rail.  Did the JCCI study factor in the pros and cons of economic development stimulated by rail transit?  If not, its useless in an argument against investing in rail.  

Quote
The fact here is that the only rail system, albeit above ground, has failed miserably. The only way your rail system gets built is with private money. Anybody fill the piggy banks yet?

Trains don't run on concrete beams with rubber wheels.  The only form of passenger rail in Jax is Amtrak's long distance intercity service.  You may not have noticed, but the federal government's outlook on rail did a complete 180 in January.  Just wait and see.  Future passenger services will come from a mix of funding sources (local, federal, state and private).  Either we can be proactive or be pulled, kicking and screaming.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32954
    • Modern Cities
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2009, 11:54:48 PM »
How do you propose to get past this as problem? Who will run rail in jacksonville, since JTA controlls all transportation in a large public form?

Depends on the system.  JTA will not be in charge of running an Amtrak corridor service or HSR.  In certain cases, Amtrak even runs commuter rail services.  Streetcars can be run by JTA or an independent authority.  For example, Dallas DART and M-Line Streetcar systems are operated by two different entities.  Again, who runs what will depend on what type of rail you're talking about, which is why I asked you earlier to pick a specific mode or corridor to debate the pros and cons.

Quote
I'd much rather have the JTA lose a little money, than fork over another 100 million per mile for something that is 1) Not needed according to the JCCI, and 2) would drain 1/3 of the City budget if built.

Still waiting to see the JCCI study address rail specifically and for solid proof of how a streetcar or commuter rail line, constructed with transit money already set aside, would drain 1/3 of the city's budget.  Also, local estimates show the cost for a streetcar in the range of $15 million/mile and commuter rail in the $5 to $8 million/mile range.  Go no-frills and those costs take a huge drop.  Why go with the $100 million/mile figure?  Even your rubber wheeled, overbuilt elevated people mover was built for less ($73.6 million/mile).

Quote
Imaging police officers for hire to the highest bidder, imaging firemen who go to fires based on who can write them a check. It will happen if we boondoggle the city with unneeded transportation projects. The police and fire suck up most of the budget now, imaging taking half of theirs to pay for a rail system?

Its OK to dream, but dream with someone elses money.

We have $100 million already set aside for mass transit.  There are specific funding sources at the federal level set aside for mass transit.  No one is advocating using money from sources not already set aside for mass transit.  To suggest such, would truly be considered dreaming.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

JeffreyS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5932
  • Demand Evidence and Think Critically.
Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2009, 12:01:45 AM »
I take back my comment about Mtrain's debating skills being sad. It was just a cheap shot that won't win anyone over. Sorry Mtrain.
Lenny Smash