Author Topic: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ  (Read 26800 times)

urbanlibertarian

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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2009, 10:47:36 PM »
But, Ock.  Hasn't there been a little inflation since 1910?  Postage was 2 cents per ounce then.
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thelakelander

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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2009, 10:54:26 PM »
All I'm saying is...before we venture into any new modes of transportation, let's make sure that the public is ready for it, and it will be a success even before it hits the streets, rails, or wherever.

I guess the question we, or Jax, should ask ourselves is..."are we (Jacksonville) ready for light rail, rail, etc.?" And if the answer is no (and in general I think it is), then we'd better put it on the back burner; and if the answer is an undeniable unmistakable strong yes, then build it!  We can't just build something and hope that it's a success.  I can't even tell (someone help me with this), whether there is a strong, sure public/commuter demand for rail in Jacksonville (is the public ready?).

Heights Unknown ;)

I'd say we are ripe for the economic infill development potential rail will bring.  This city's core has half the density it enjoyed 50 years ago and its littered with under utilized property.  As for ridership estimates, the commuter rail study indicates that commuter rail will be viable in Jacksonville.  Amtrak's studies have them believing they can actually break even running an enhanced statewide system with Jacksonville as a potential hub.  I have not seen streetcar ridership estimates, but I do believe you can make any rail corridor viable by fully integrating it with the existing bus system (in addition to having it go where people live, work and play).  By full integration, I mean turning it into a transit spine with the bus system set up to feed riders into it.  So, I'd say Jax is ready and opportunity is knocking at the door.  It just needs leaders that are willing to grow a pair, get from under the bed and open it.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2009, 11:37:16 PM »
Certainly, but that was also a time when if you didn't want your date or mate to eat dirt, you rode to town on the streetcars.

GM and Companies, did get into trouble with the Courts, and ended up getting their hands slapped. Most only paid token fines. Cleveland managed to win some serious jail time after the infamous photo of their National City Lines exec handing a pay check to the local streetcar company in front of burning streetcars.

Jacksonville took quite a different path, we got a new exclusive distribution center for all GM products. Tampa's City Council all got brand new LaSalle Automobiles.

What streetcar brings to the table today in some 70 cities, is Billions of dollars of new infill development. This is happening in Norfolk right now in spite of the economic times. Streetcars can be vintage or modern or a mix of both, but a vintage system can play both transit and attraction roles.


OCKLAWAHA

thelakelander

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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2009, 07:16:13 AM »
Vintage also happens to be cheaper to implement.
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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 11:18:47 AM »
So what are we waiting for? Oh yeah our new sister city CURITIBA BRASIL.

http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/


OCKLAWAHA

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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2009, 07:34:34 AM »
I value your opinion Lake, and if you say we're ready, then I wish we would just go ahead and go with it and build.  But wait, do we have the leadership and leaders who are willing to step forward, lead, and help to make Jacksonville the world class and top tier U.S. City that it should be and is "yearning" to be?

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thelakelander

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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2009, 07:47:52 AM »
Do we have leadership and leaders willing to step forward?  We have a few, but they won't be that effective if they don't have decent public support behind them.  This is why we continue to force feed the issue to this community.  If Jax is lucky, mass transit will become a main topic of the upcoming mayoral race.
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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2009, 08:30:35 AM »
The forcefeeding must be continued... I lived in San Jose while the debate raged on the light rail.  Same excuses and reasons not to do it there as people frequently use here.  Then the construction woes and grumblings... then the driver vs light rail issues and learning curves.  Ridership was low and slow for quite awhile... Californians do not easily leave their cars.  Public service announcements and advocacy must be constant until a critical mass develops...
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Ron Mexico

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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2009, 09:52:56 AM »
Guys, you have to think of the enormous economic burden that rail would throw on to JAX.  We don't have enough money to keep our Libraries open or even handle necessary public services.  You need to read about how Atlanta is really struggling with MARTA and they have huge ridership.  I go there once a month for work and ride MARTA from ATL and it is always packed.  They are talking about stopping service on Fri-Sat and Sun because it is too expensive.  This is not a situation of "if you build it, they will ride".  This is really expensive.

You would have to raise taxes on everything to pay for this and that would dictate a public referendum which undoubtedly would be shot down in this current environment.
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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2009, 10:02:42 AM »
Good points Ron but if you look at the development MARTA has brought to it's immediate surroundings Atlanta has come out way ahead on that one.  Every time a politician plays politics with a service's funding does not inherently make it a good idea.  Scaled back mass transit means ramped up road transit which is every bit as subsidized and increases traffic in a city that has plenty. 
Lenny Smash

thelakelander

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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2009, 10:19:48 AM »
Atlanta should have put some of the economic gains generated by MARTA, back into the system.  If cities came around to doing this, MARTA and other systems would be just fine.
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Re: I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2009, 08:33:04 PM »
Guys, you have to think of the enormous economic burden that rail would throw on to JAX.  We don't have enough money to keep our Libraries open or even handle necessary public services.  You need to read about how Atlanta is really struggling with MARTA and they have huge ridership.  I go there once a month for work and ride MARTA from ATL and it is always packed.  They are talking about stopping service on Fri-Sat and Sun because it is too expensive.  This is not a situation of "if you build it, they will ride".  This is really expensive.

You would have to raise taxes on everything to pay for this and that would dictate a public referendum which undoubtedly would be shot down in this current environment.

First off Ron, hello from the old Transit Hippie. Atlanta's MARTA is heavy rail, this is a term that defines most 3rd rail, elevated or subway trains in the world. Nobody in their right mind has ever considered such a system here. Streetcar and Light Rail are pretty much alike and the vehicles can be built to move from one to the other. So your slightly larger and faster LRT cars could come downtown and enter the same track used by a Historic style streetcar system. It's all about how the system is designed and nothing is more flexible then electric rail.

Ron, I doubt that you could find a streetcar or Light Rail Project anywhere in the USA that hasn't more then paid it's way by creating a tidal wave of new development. The last numbers I have are that for every dollar spent on streetcar, $1,200 dollars in new development take place!

If we buy into the argument that BRT (the Star of our new sister City Curitiba Brasil) is "Just like Rail Only Cheaper", we are fooling ourselves. BRT is said to be faster then streetcars or LRT, yet in Curitiba where the average Transit Bus moves at 8 MPH, the wonder BRT system of the World has raised the average speed to a breathtaking 12 MPH. For all the PR that has gone into BRT the sole reason that it even considered a "Product Option" is because under years of Republican or Clinton control, there has not been enough funding at the Federal level to build any more real transit systems... (Read that RAIL).
So the government cooked up the busway, an old idea from the 1950's and repackaged it with some new transit toys, que jumping, real time (Skyway Style) information, low entry, private lanes etc... and sold it off as a wonderful cheap alternative to Rail.

As usual whenever a new goofy idea crops up, Jacksonville bought into it so fast that the Skyway blushed.

Now for a medical dose of reality, streetcar is often cheaper to build then BRT, and almost ALWAYS cheaper to build then the crazy plans JTA was originally floating at City Hall. Down the road, those buses cost the taxpayers .80 cents per passenger mile to operate and maintain. Those streetcars? The ones we're too afraid to build? .40 cents per passenger mile.

Yet these local Parrots and Lemmings continue to repeat the phrase... Yep, we'll go broke on rail.



OCKLAWAHA
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 11:55:21 PM by Ocklawaha »

Ocklawaha

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UNSCRAMBLE YOUR TRANSIT KNOWLEDGE...
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2009, 08:57:31 PM »


PCC heritage streetcar in the Castro



Modern Streetcar's are able to run with either LRT or Heritage Streetcars on the same system. Mix and Match!

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THIS is modern Streetcar Construction... Doesn't look nearly as monsterous as "they'd" have you believe right?


"BRT JUST LIKE RAIL ONLY CHEAPER?" This is a BRT system under construction in England. How much "CHEAPER" do you think this is as opposed to the Streetcar construction photo above? NOT!

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San Jose Heritage Streetcar on the LRT system.



Modern Light Rail TRAIN in rush hour Madrid (try this with a bus and ONE driver)



LRT a smashing success in the Auto City of the World, Los Angeles.

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Heavy Rail BART in Oakland, CA



Chicago HEAVY RAIL - CTA the EL in downtown

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Commuter Rail runs on regular railroads with regular trains, NJ Transit System seen here.



Florida's only Commuter Rail line the TRI-RAIL in Southeast Florida.


OCKLAWAHA
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 09:00:55 PM by Ocklawaha »