Peyton's Struggles: The Convention Center

[thelakelander]

IMO, after a lot of going back and forth. I now like the idea of expanding the current site. With the JTC, Bay  Street Station, and possible Drooklyn redevelopment, this area could provide enough things around the center that are currently missing, The main things being adjacent hotels, which would be helped by Bay Street project. This project also includes a movie theater. If I am not mistaken, the JTC also includes some retail. You could also run trolley or streetcar down Park Street to connect center with 5 points.        

Two problems with this scenerio:

1. You have an inefficient transportation center layout that wastes a couple of DT blocks on uses that should be integrated adjacent to each other.

2. After spending millions to expand the convention center, you can only hope complementing development follows.  For all we know, the Brooklyn Parks and Bay Street Station concepts are nothing more than present day Buddy Clarkson Marriott proposals that will never actually happen.  If things turn out that way (as they have in the past), you then have an expanded convention center that's still not attractive, when lined up with those in other cities.

[thelakelander]

From an historical buildings perspective, wouldn't trying to expand the Prime Osborn into a larger convention center significantly alter the beauty and uniqueness of the architecture?  I think turning it into a transportation hub would allow the building's size to remain as is, thus preserving the original outside structure.  Ock or Lake, am I right or wrong on this? 

Charles Hunter is right.  Expanding at the current site would mean stretching out over the parking lot.  The appearance of the building's front would not be altered.  You would have a larger center, but you're still stuck with hoping something similar to the Hyatt elects to open at the complex.  As for the transportation center, it would just be screwed.

[JaxByDefault]

Great article.

It's always helpful to put JAX into perspective with its peer cities. While the above exhibition space for Nashville is a bit outdated, Nashville is a population-peer city that has also recently wrestled with how and when to address convention center facilities in their downtown master plan. 

Nashville is currently upgrading its downtown convention space. While downtown's space as listed above is small, the city had ample convention space at Opryland while the city invested energy into renovations of TPAC, the construction of the new symphony center, and some downtown space and infrastructure improvements. Nashville's new downtown convention center will have 375,000 sq.ft of exhibition space. Opryland has 319,000 sq.ft of exhibit space and 110,000 sq.ft of ballroom space with plans to double their exhibition space in the next few years. Thus, the Nashville area actually will soon have almost 700,000 sq.ft. of exhibition space with plans to expand.

Nashville will certainly benefit from bringing more conventions downtown. Even though may of the Sh/Opryland guests eventually make it to 2nd Avenue on tour buses, hotel and restaurant dollars that stay downtown will be a significant gain. 

Alas, JAX doesn't have the luxury of leaning on other area facilities, with minimum hit to tourist dollars, while putting off the convention center question.

I agree that it makes the most planning and fiscal sense to make the Prime Osborn a transit hub again. It is pointless to rebuild existing infrastructure and PO's location on the outskirts of downtown disconnects convention traffic from the heart of downtown. Currently, surface lots and office buildings hinder connective development in between the PO and downtown; the city's current plans would have conventioners further isolated by a new transit hub and courthouse. Nashville's made this same mistake with an old transit center: the Union Station Hotel is beautiful--and kudos to them for saving a grand building--but I'd rather have it serving as Nashville's transit hub, too.

[urbanlibertarian]

I don't think the distance people would have to walk from Amtrack to JTA stuff and Greyhound would be farther than the distances you have to cover WITHIN most major airports.  If traffic justified it escalators, moving sidewalks and enclosed paths could be built.
Also, is the convention business something that the COJ taxpayers need to get into?  Should we wait for a private concern to do it or be our partners on it?

[billy]

Here's the plan. Let's call it the Even Better Jacksonville Plan.
The Ford Assembly Building is 163,000 square feet.

What if the Assembly building were developed as Phase One of a waterfront convention center?
It's essentially a two space building, The renovated showroom would be an excellent venue, and the enormous main plant space could handle many shows.

If successful, you have expansion acerage.

Think of the perimeter circulation and breakout space looking out on a 180 degree view of the river.
Have a green roof. Someone please, renovate this magnificent structure in my lifetime.

Think of the boat show you could have.
Market the new convention center to every marine related, shipping and transportation industrial trade show on the planet.

Extend the Skyway to the new convention center complex with stops along the Municipal Stadium/Veterans
Memorial Arena route, and provide future stops for redevelopment sites on Commodore Point land.

You could have sites for future waterfront hotels near both the Sports Complex and the Convention Center.

There is a railroad spur line crossing the property that terminates at Commodores Point.
Ock, help me out here.

Extend the Northbank Riverwalk to the Matthews Bridge and the Ford site, and start up the Hogan's Creek Greenway while you are at it.

Nice shopping/wish list for the new Administration's projects, much of it transportation related.

This frees up all of Union Terminal for the best possible multi-modal project.
A more compact transportation center is good. This plan also establishs connectivity,
not only from Riverside/Avondale to Brooklyn/Lavilla to downtown,and down river to where port activity starts, but inland to Springfield, and Fairfield/Eastside, so the later can be like Wrigleyville.

Union Terminal and the Ford Assembly Building are the bookends.

Good vision? Negative factors? Too distant from downtown?
Some of the downtown convention center sites could potentially block the waterfront, like the original Hyatt structure. We need an urban design template that optimizes all of the assets of downtown.

[Ocklawaha]

Last trains were in 1974. It was closed due to high overhead (cost per train or per passenger) which soared after Amtrak took over in 1971 and wiped out about 2/3 of all US passenger trains... uh... in order to "save them" (Hey! Don't blame me, Tricky Dicky said that!). They also complained about the trains having to back into the "old" station. Funny because we had already started talks to bring back the FEC route which would force the trains to pass right through the old station. Moreover, by not building at the throat of the rail junctions downtown, Amtrak limited itself to ONE LINE ONLY, so when the Sunset Limited came along, it upset the apple cart and had to pull into the old station and BACK to the Am-shack on Clifford lane. Most of us in the rail business always figured the REAL REASON they moved it out of town, was the other thing they did to "save them"... The new company would have no old fart railroaders around to tell them how to run a passenger service. So the US Government hired airline and bus executives to set up Amtrak. Any good airline executive is going to want the station way out of town, so people won't complain when the trains land.

This would be funnier if it wern't so lame ass true!

The NUMBER ONE - NUMBERO UNO - reason that we cannot allow the Prime Osbourne to stay or expand is this:

Amtrak is extending the corridor south to Jacksonville - then on to Miami
The FEC is going to come back.
We will get the 5 trains per route plan (as many as 15-30 Jacksonville trains depending on how many routes they pick).
In 1986 the USDOT came through with long range plan advisorys and said Jacksonville will need a 12 track station in the near future. This was the start of our JTC planning.

UNLESS THE PRIME IS GONE, THERE IS NO PLACE TO PUT THE TRACKS. 4 maybe, 8-12 for a hub? NOT A CHANCE! Oh and don't forget commuter rail will need at least 4 also... DUH?

Don't you just love the Mayor?

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I don't think the distance people would have to walk from Amtrack to JTA stuff and Greyhound would be farther than the distances you have to cover WITHIN most major airports.  If traffic justified it escalators, moving sidewalks and enclosed paths could be built.

Except an airport and an intermodal center are two different animals.  Toss in the fact that the site is downtown and, like the courthouse, its highly questionable to waste multiple blocks on a center that should not consume that much land.

Also, is the convention business something that the COJ taxpayers need to get into?  Should we wait for a private concern to do it or be our partners on it?

The Hyatt and Sleiman (The Landing) have mentioned being potential partners at points in the past.  Considering both would directly benefit from a center being located near their operations, it would make sense for them to help cover the cost.

[Ocklawaha]

Here's the plan. Let's call it the Even Better Jacksonville Plan.
The Ford Assembly Building is 163,000 square feet.

What if the Assembly building were developed as Phase One of a waterfront convention center?

Extend the Skyway to the new convention center complex with stops along the Municipal Stadium/Veterans
Memorial Arena route, and provide future stops for redevelopment sites on Commodore Point land.

You could have sites for future waterfront hotels near both the Sports Complex and the Convention Center.

There is a railroad spur line crossing the property that terminates at Commodores Point.
Ock, help me out here.

Extend the Northbank Riverwalk to the Matthews Bridge and the Ford site, and start up the Hogan's Creek Greenway while you are at it.

Yes the Talleyrand Terminal Railroad extends south from the Talleyrand Terminal to the point and shipyard under the Hart Bridge.

The only negative I see in this plan is the dislocation of a few major shipping employers...
The Shipyard under the Hart Bridge, a barge line, a major cement loading facility, some really big warehouse space, a maritime contractor, a second tug and barge operation.

Perhaps we could just send them all to Mayport? How interesting would THAT be? All joking aside, we could develop some of the land along the Trout River, Clapboard Creek or those islands under the Broward Bridge.

OCKLAWAHA

[billy]

The official Downtown Development area stops at the Matthews Bridge, I believe.
Long term, I've always thought downriver would always remain industrial waterfront and maritime,
until you pass Blount Island and even beyond to Atlantic Marine.

I'm old enough to remember shipyards and shipping on both sides almost up to the Main Street Bridge ( and when Blount Island had a different name).

[ralpho37]

I feel that this convention center fiasco is near the top of the list of urgent issues in Jacksonville.  Not only are our city officials inhibiting this JTA Transportation Hub from being a commuter/traveler-friendly center, but they are also squashing any shot at making downtown a true center of activity as a result.

By keeping the undersized Prime Osborne as our convention center, and attempting to build the transit center around it, this plan will become nothing more than a "let's keep our fingers crossed and hope this works" idea.

Acceptable convention facilities are crucial to the economic development of any city.  If Jacksonville were able to compete for even 60% of the nation's convention events (and this would result from modest expansion), the benefits would be outstanding.  Downtown Jacksonville would undoubtedly see noticeable growth as a result (retail, hotels, nightlife, and even residential development as downtown becomes a more attractive neighborhood).

Is it not apparent that an expanded center is in the best interest of our city?  Is there anything that we citizens can do to keep the city government from ruining another golden opportunity to develop downtown and develop it the RIGHT way?  Instead of just sitting back and pointing out the error of their ways, why not try to DO something about it?

[krazeeboi]

Anyone see Nashville's plans for its new convention center? They're plowing full speed ahead it seems. The 1.2 million square foot facility will include a 370,000-square-foot exhibit hall: www.nashvillemusiccitycenter.com

[vicupstate]

Nice architecture, at least from this rendering.

[krazeeboi]

One of the goals of the facility is to ensure that it "functions on all four sides in a way that stimulates business and energizes the neighborhood."

[thelakelander]

Thanks for sharing, krazeeboi. That's a pretty impressive complex that will replace six more blocks of surface parking lots in Nashville.  I love the way it fits into the downtown core.  Jax should definitely take note.  Btw, I'm looking forward to spending at least a night or day in Nashville, with the camera, on a road trip I'm currently planning for June.  So look forward to a Nashville photo article this Summer.

[L.P. Hovercraft]

Nice--it looks like the cutaway top of an acoustic guitar on the roof which is fitting for Nashville.