Peyton's Struggles: Building Yesterday's City

[tufsu1]

fine so its 7 blocks...does any one really want the old federal courthouse building or the Ed Ball building to either rot or be torn down....the City is doing adaptive reuse, which we should all applaud!

and btw....no, I'm not involved in the project in any way!

as for the road, I'm pretty sure I know a bit more about transportation and the effects of building roads than you give me credit for....you will get no disagreement from me that the outer beltway will lead to more sprawl, which is why I stated my opposition to it....but its also important to recognize that there is/will be a capacity problem on portions of I-10, I-295, and I-95 that must be addressed in some way (commuter rail, HOT lanes, dedicated truck lanes, etc.).

[thelakelander]

The most affordable option is to invest in rail, both freight and passenger.  With rising fuel costs on the horizon, expect to see a shift in the way we ship freight and use trucks.

Nevertheless, we'll blow the current opportunity we have to alter our sprawl development patterns if the Mayor successfully takes existing transit money to invest in more roads.

[stjr]

fine so its 7 blocks...does any one really want the old federal courthouse building or the Ed Ball building to either rot or be torn down....the City is doing adaptive reuse, which we should all applaud!

Well... thanks for the "apology".

As to the old federal courthouse and Ed Ball building, great, let them be reused.  They just don't have to be a part of the new courthouse complex.  Let them be renovated for other purposes, maybe for private sector purposes (now, that's a novel idea!).

Glad we all agree on the outer beltway.  That's a project that needs to be killed before people start saying we have too much invested in it, can't walk away from that investment, need to "finish" or expand it to salvage what is already spent, and even if it is not the best decision, given the investment, it would cost even more to start over.  Sound familiar? 

[thelakelander]

An email response from the author

Hello --

The way in which you presented my Folio rant was a very thoughtful one, and the graphics really help, thanks!  A few further observations, however.

First Point

Judging from the responses so far, even your audience is missing the main "point" of all this -- i.e., the institutionalized lack of anything resembling good planning and urban design in this town.  We suffer from a gestalt of non-planning, if you will, that permeates everything that happens in this community.  Again, all of the problems that we are seeing are not "acts of God," but part of a clearly discernible pattern of deliberate neglect.  But why do so few of us see things in this fashion?  Is urban design that "hard" to understand?

Point Two

The Mecklenburg County Courthouse (as shown in the commentary section) could -- and SHOULD -- easily win Jim Kunstler's award as the eyesore of the month!   [As Jim would probably say, lol, "It's a f***ing abomination!"]

As bad as things are here in Cowford, at least we have been -- so far! -- spared this kind of a postmodern architectural wet dream of a building.  This thing is so brutally, godawful UGLY that it defies belief that the poor citizens of Charlotte will now have to live with it for who knows how many decades.  The proposed Duval County Courthouse -- thanks to KBJ Architects -- at least has enough sense of scale, proportion, and the use of well chosen classic architectural referents to be "read" -- quite properly -- as a recognizable piece of civic architecture.  In this respect, even the original "neo-Fascist" Cannon design was better than this reeking abomination.  Sadly, KBJ's original entry into the design "competition" [which, under any honest set of circumstances would have handily won the day] had a much lighter and open touch than the most recent iteration, and would, I believe, have been a true piece of landmark architecture for Jacksonville.

Sadly, the proposed county courthouse building -- again, with due gratitude to KBJ architects for their efforts -- is not quite as open and airy as their original design, but it does carry over some of its design elements.  And, as I say, it at least "looks" (reads) like a courthouse.  Now, if someone in authority can just make the conceptual leap to consider how this landmark building can be used to facilitate the melding of the core downtown into an integrated, functional whole, THEN we may finally be getting our money's worth, whatever the damned things costs...

Milt

[Charles Hunter]

So what position does "Milt" have at KBJ?

That aside, it "looks like a courthouse" ... from 1890.

[JeffreyS]

I think he is right it looks like a courthouse. Just a courthouse for the burbs. I could live with it if the first floor was designed to interact with people on the street. I would prefer however a smaller footprint with more vertical design.

[thelakelander]

I guess Milt has a preference for conservative architecture.  While the Charlotte courthouse won't win any design awards, it was built for $200 million less.  For that price, they could put up a vertical Ed Ball Building, as far as I'm concerned.  Depending on how competent your architect is, even a basic box can be made to be attractive.  Personally, I don't care what the thing looks like as long as it is A.) affordable and B.) properly integrated into the downtown landscape.  Unfortunately, its fails on both of these issues.

[JaxNative68]

If we don't build the piece of s!%* as presently designed, Peyton won't get his "arch d'triumph" to praise his time as mayor.  What he doesn't realize is that he is stamping the city with an icon of his Napoleon Complex with this courthouse design!  And all of his friend can't loot the city treasury in the process.  Instead of calling it a "Courthouse Complex", maybe everyone should start referring to it as the "Napoleon Complex".  Maybe that will spur a more modest design that fits our city.

[JeffreyS]

I will now only refur to new courthouse as the Napoleon Complex.

[ChriswUfGator]

I'm not understanding why this thing isn't vertical.

Real estate, and indeed the rise and fall and re-rise of urban areas, is totally cyclical. Eventually, there will be a demand for land area downtown, and that courthouse will be taking up a hundred times more space than it needs to.

The feds build their courthouse on one block, went vertical, and didn't waste space. Not to mention they saved what? $200+ million over Duval County's proposal, to get almost the same amount of usable area. This courthouse debacle is just effin' ridiculous.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't think modern or High Rise is ugly - I do think our latest plan looks like an "EXPLOSION IN A PILLAR FACTORY."


Charlottes ugly? Where?


Orange County - Orlando Florida - "Mickeys copy of Miami-Dades Classic Courthouse".


Miami-Dade County Courthouse classic.


The Scott Matheson Courthouse on State Street, Salt Lake City


Bernalillo county courthouse


Madrid... No NOT the one in New Mexico.


Perth Australia


Brasil? Uh Huh!


Moscow's new Justice Complex Plan

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/2310818539_f5d6c70f54.jpg
Colombia


Okay, it's not a courthouse, but it does give an idea how a MODERN community in Colombia is designed so it is livable and walkable. These homes are near the beach, where it is warm HOT year around.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

The Salt Lake image is actually the Miami-Dade County Courthouse.  Personally, I believe that architecture should be reflective of the time you live in now instead of poor attempts to copy styles from the past.  If Jacksonville's architects were not progressive 100 years ago, this city would still be full of two story wood frame commercial structures.  Some where along the way, we lost our mojo.  We need to get it back.

Bay Street - 1864

[Ocklawaha]

Thanks for the heads-up Lake, I don't know what happened to the SLC photo, but I went back and put some back in that fell through the cracks. There's also a cork-screw design in Moscow, but I couldn't find it this time around.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Yikes!!

That Moscow complex must have been Jax's inspiration.  Call it Russian Empire - Stalinist Period typified by a grandiose, foreboding, and overbearing fortress complex with no warmth, grace, style, or connectivity to its surroundings less the populace think that justice is a part OF, as opposed to "apart" FROM, the citizens upon which it is imposed!

Is it designed to seal its occupants within or to bar the people without?!  On this basis, Jax's courthouse will be a resounding success.

[urbaknight]

I think the only solution for urbanizing the city "the right way" would be to simply vote out the council members that stand against anything practical, such as, the preservation of Firehouse NO.5, the utilization of the convention center in the way it was originally intended, as a transit hub. Basically everything on this website that needs to be addressed should be endorsed by city council, or at least should be looked at from every possible angle, all experts should be asked for their input.