Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour

[BridgeTroll]

How about adding an informative, catchy, witty, public relations campaign on TV and radio.  We must have some marketing folks on this site...  If COJ was going to hire you to do a public relations campaign to boost ridership, enhance awareness, and announce new mass transit options in Duval county, how would you do it??

[ProjectMaximus]

Ock, what is the photo of that you captioned "When a streetcar IS a Skyway?"

Looks pretty cool.

[ProjectMaximus]

I am telling you the buses that go down Pearl right now are mostly empty...why are we discussing this anyhow? Fill up the damn buses and then talk to us about needing increased service.

ILastly, and again.... fill up the busses that are currently running. These buses tool around not even half full, it is a waste of money. I am still trying to figure out where these people are going that they need a bus every ten minutes? Can anyone tell me? The busstops around here are usually full of people sitting and drinking....not waiting to ride the bus.

I think your logic is flawed on two accounts:
1) The improvements are intended to improve ridership numbers. The better service should increase the service's popularity. I'm not saying it would in fact be successful, but that's just the theory behind it (imo)

2) I believe that buses are far more important than a snapshot of their ridership at any given moment would indicate. I just flew back to Chicago from Jax this weekend, via Detroit on Northwest Airlines. My flight from Detroit to Chicago was less than a third full...probably about 20 people total. The airline lost money on that one isolated flight, but they still find it necessary to provide frequent service from their hub in Detroit to other major cities. Why? Simply put, if they didn't, I wouldn't have flown on Northwest at all, nor would many other people who need to go to Chicago. Similarly, choice riders are more inclined to take the bus if they know they can get where they need to go when they need to go there. A popular bus line that you approve of because it is full might only be full because some folks got on that bus down Pearl that is mostly empty. Those empty buses are sometimes as important as the ones carrying the majority of the riders.

I'm no expert and I'm not saying you're totally wrong, UG, you were just looking for answers so I'm giving you my take.

[uptowngirl]

Where is the documentation to support any of this supposition? Jacksonville is not a big bus riding town. I have lived in large metro areas where the bus was used by everyone, white and blue collar workers, non workers, and school children. That is not the case (at least from what I have seen an experienced here) in Jacksonville. Hoping to increase rider ship by putting in an express lane, nicer bus stop, nicer bus is great wishful thinking, but the reality is peoples homes, businesses, and quality of life could/would be impacted 9depending on route and none look to good) for a "what if" scenario. As stated before, when buses were rerouted down my street from Blvd. I ended up with two cracked windows in my house, and lots of trash and dirt not to mention the noise! The current bus stops (even or maybe even more so the newer ones) are occupied by homeless and drinkers 24/7 so why pay to put in nicer ones for them. Imagine eating on the sidewalk at holas or another place on Main and having a big bus cruise by every ten minutes... yeah not my idea of a great time either.

Can someone post some type of verification of a potential increase in rider ship and impacts both negative and positive to the surrounding neighborhoods these routes are planned for in support of this plan? I have yet to see it, just wishful maybes and of course berating for being 'against mass transit".

I am not against mass transit, I am not against buses I have used a variety of transportation options in the past, but these were well planned, well thought out options.

[tufsu1]

How do you know that this isn't being well planned....or that those other systems were well planned...for example, for the first 20 years that Metrorail was operating in Miami, it seemed like a colossal mistake...its only in the last 8+ years that the system has been seen in a positive light.

The environmental impact study that is being revised by JTA (because this is a new route) will include ridership projections...as well as assessments regarding the impact to neighborhoods (from traffic, noise, etc.)

Believe me, while this is a relatively minor transit project, FTA won't approve the funding if the numbers don't make sense!

[ProjectMaximus]

I am not against mass transit, I am not against buses I have used a variety of transportation options in the past, but these were well planned, well thought out options.

Fair enough, I do believe you aren't anti-public transportation, and that you have valid concerns about the effect on your neighborhood...but just don't use the half-empty bus argument as justification against them.

[Steve]

Jacksonville's bus system has been unreliable for a long time.  It is what it is now, you can't undo what's already done.  The Detroit Lions lost every game this year.  So, should the JTA join up with all of the Lions fans just sail a ship halfway to China and call it a day?  I'd rather them try to learn from their previous mistakes, and implement things to try to improve the situation, wouldn't you?

[civil42806]

Because by creating a better QOS, you will naturally enhance riders.  Let me ask you something, what looks better, an 85 Ford, or an 05 Ford.  Buses should never be mistaken for Rail, and JTA's quotes in the recent past about buses being like rail are crazy.  However, you can't have rail only.  The City Of New York has the largest passenger rail transit network on America, and I believe they have more buses than anyone as well.  You need them both.  Just like crazy Uncle Ned makes your family complete, buses make a transit network complete.

By having dedicated bus corridors, you can more easily invest the money for nicer stops, better headways, signal priorities, etc.

And also, I can't speak for MJ as a whole, but I do not endorse this service on a residential street.

Boy I disagree Steve, maybe I'm wrong, have been in the past.  But I remember the comment about putting lipstick on a pig.  If the line doesn't run from where someone wants lives to where they want to go doesn't matter  how attractive the buses or the transit system is

[thelakelander]

That's one of the major reasons for revamping the current bus system.  They want to make it more attractive by proving dependable routes to destinations where people what to go.  I think we all can agree that what they have right now does not work.  The only way you can fix this problem is to attempt to improve it.

[Steve]

Boy I disagree Steve, maybe I'm wrong, have been in the past.  But I remember the comment about putting lipstick on a pig.  If the line doesn't run from where someone wants lives to where they want to go doesn't matter  how attractive the buses or the transit system is

I think you missed the point of what I was saying - my comment was not just in reference to the vehicle, but in reference to the overall quality of service (QOS).  This inclues the quality of the vehicle, the corridor it runs on, the stop locations, the headways (frequency), and other factors.  What JTA is packaging is not BRT (I know they are going to call it that, so whatever), it is really just improved bus service, but by doing all of these things (I'm sure it will be branded different as well), it will help the ridership overall.  I believe the route they have selected is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the original plan of going alongside I-95 (imagine getting dropped off at 95 & MLK), but they just need to alter it to not go through the residential neighborhood.

[Ocklawaha]

Et tu Brutae? If this bus line gets executed on Main/8th, you can kiss any future streetcar goodbye.

'You need to believe me because of my honor,  As Caesar lov'd/ me, I weep for him; as he was fortunate, I rejoice/ at it; as he was valiant, I honor him; but, to the extent he was ambitious, I killed him.'

"You need to believe me because of my honor, As good Transit lov'd me, I pray fort it; as JTA is fortunate, I rejoice at it; as they valiantly plan, I honor them; but, to the extent where Quickway BRT is foolish, I killed it."

BRUTUS OCKLAWAHAUS

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, what is the photo of that you captioned "When a streetcar IS a Skyway?"

Looks pretty cool.

This is one of the new elevated LRT systems, something between Light Rail and Heavy Rail really. For example major parts of Buffalo and St. Louis systems have been built as LRT in Subways. It's cool but I can't really support the costs involved, at least not here.

OCKLAWAHA

[ProjectMaximus]

Very cool. I was curious to know where in the world that photo was taken though.

[uptowngirl]

Lake- what is wrong with being dropped off at MLK and 95?

Again I do not want this going through residential districts, or cutting off the walkability of our neighborhood, but where exactly are these buses going that people want to get to that they need to go through Springfield? Perhaps once they release some studies proving their theory I will feel better about this, but so far I am just not buying the whole thing. Half full buses does have a place here for discussion, why should my neighborhood lower our quality of life for a few people to get where they are going quicker or in a prettier bus? I think this is a valid question, but can see how someone who will not be personally impacted could care less.

[thelakelander]

MLK & I-95 happen to be two high speed expressways with nothing within walking distance.  Jacksonville is better off without any transit, than a riderless system that drops people off where they don't want to go. 

Also, poor bus service and mass transit in general negatively impacts Springfield's quality of life.  If we have a chance to make a positive impact, we should be all over it to make sure it happens correctly.