Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour

[zoo]

Et tu Brutae? If this bus line gets executed on Main/8th, you can kiss any future streetcar goodbye.

[thelakelander]

A streetcar line down Main is a pipe dream at this point.  However, in the event that one does come in a decade or so, buses could easily be rerouted.  However, unless the streetcar line is going to go all the way to I-295 (which would not be financially feasible) we would probably end up with both along the same corridor.

[thelakelander]

Has JTA said what the frequency/headways of the bus system would be?

An express bus, making what amounts to one centralized stop per neighborhood, every 10 minutes.

[thelakelander]

That sums it up. Integrated is what's needed here, not just more of an option that already exists (no more bus traffic on Main, Pearl, 8th, 7th, 1st or any other streets in the Historic District, please). Lake, if, with metrojacksonville.com's support (which might be presumed based on your posts), JTA gets increased busing on Main, how urgently do you think it will consider a historically-appropriate trolley or a streetcar, both options that would bring riders to the Main/8th St corridors at a commercially viable level? The answer to that is probably never, "because we're already serving northsiders with our lovely non-walkable-friendly BRT system."

They are different animals that aren't in competition with each other.  The bus would run through the Northside, up to Lem Turner & I-295 (areas where rail would not stretch out to).  The north commuter rail line would run from DT to the airport or possibly Fernandina Beach.  A streetcar line would probably terminate at the S-Line.  All three would complement each other.

I also don't want to be separated from what will someday be a terrific park system. The park system is included within the boundaries of the Historic District. Boulevard as an option shouldn't even be discussed, let alone been included in a second, ill-thought-out, tentative plan. Crossing Boulevard at the blind curve at 5th is already a deadly proposition. Would you send your 7-year-old across Boulevard on his bicycle if the bus load were increased by 8 double-sized buses/hour?!?!

No.  I'm against having a major bus corridor run down residential streets.  I'd prefer them to run along commercial corridors like they do in most major cities.

You have already said in many posts that State/Union are a major barrier to Springfield/Downtown connectivity. Well, BRT on Boulevard is a major barrier to Historic District/Park connectivity - this should not happen.

A bus every 10 minutes and 70,000 cars a day (State & Union) are two different issues.  However, I don't view State & Union's traffic count as the barrier.  Most major cities have streets just like State & Union that carry more traffic, yet pedestrians still have no problem crossing the streets.  For a retail deprived core, State & Union's traffic counts are an asset with the right marketing strategy.  The true barrier is the non-pedestrian friendly buildings, walls and parking lots that dot the area.

If we take that connectivity argument of yours further, the west side of the District and the east side of the district, nor the south and north sides, should not be MORE separated than they already are by the non-pedestrian-friendly medians and existing bus traffic, by increasing bus traffic on Main or 8th.

Simply put, I just don't view a bus running every 10 minutes along a commercial corridor as a negative or a barrier.  I'd prefer them there as opposed to running through a residential zone.

If you don't want to run the route through the neighborhoods north of Shands/UF, fine. Perhaps the route should go partially back to the original proposal of using 95? So from the transit center, it would use Boulevard (to State or 1st), Jefferson to 8th, 95, then off at Golfair/Brentwood/Lem Turner (however it would make sense up there) on the North end.

That would not make sense because no one lives or works along I-95.  It would eliminate New Springfield and Brentwood (two transit dependent areas) from having direct express bus access.  On the other hand, Main is a commercial spine that is within walking distance for most residents in Springfield, New Springfield and Brentwood.  A line down I-95 would also be super expensive.  That option would really kill/delay people's dreams of JTA coming up with enough money to put a streetcar down Main in Springfield.

[thelakelander]

Im still unclear as to whether or not the above described corridor actually connects with the S Line.

It could potentially connect to the S-Line on the north end of Shands.  If shifted to Main, the connection would be the Springfield Warehouse District.

[thelakelander]

Ock, didnt you say that trolleys could be run in lanes of traffic?

I'm not Ock, but this picture I snapped in Toronto last year should answer your question.



The big question with Main Street and streetcars revolves around FDOT.  Will they allow streetcars to added to Main (especially after the investment being made right now)?  Its been difficult to get them to provide median cuts on Main Street.  They also quickly dismissed at Peyton's Big Idea plan to use a lane on the Main Street Bridge for a wider sidewalk.  The ultimate answer may be to get the city to take over the street.  But that won't happen overnight.

[thelakelander]

I haven't spoken to DOT about running streetcars up Main, but from past private sector working experience with them, my opinion is that it will be a time consuming/difficult process.  However, this is one of those things that should be hashed out in the creation of an overall mass transit master plan.  All of these things and more, should be known before a dime of money is spent on BRT, commuter rail or streetcars.

The Warehouse District?  That would be a great move to create that area.

Yes, a transit station would be a great focal point for adaptive reuse opportunities in the warehouse district to grow around.

Austin's Saltillo District - Capitol Metrorail (commuter rail)


Minneapolis Warehouse District - MetroTransit Hiawatha Line light rail


Pearl District - Portland Streetcar


We could have our own version of these type of scenes with the Springfield Warehouse District.

[Ocklawaha]

LOL, yes Lake and I have been confused as twins several times.

...and Stephen, you are not crazy, I have said they work in mixed traffic just fine.

Seriously, Let's look at some streetcar items

STREETCAR BENEFITS - (and we bought buses because they told us THEYwere flexible...HA!)


As Lake pointed out, here's a view showing it can be NO DIFFERENT then a bus.


IF this were a bus you'd be looking for your gas mask right about now.


Almost as pretty as Main, oh, and Palmetto, and Kings, and Pearl, and...


When a streetcar IS a Skyway


A RAILROAD? Gee I want to see a JTA bus do this trick!


Mixing a 1920's vintage car with new ones works too, huh? Where ARE our vintage buses?


Streetcar over the sea in NJ


Can a bus run alongside the road without pavement? A streetcar can.


Let's have a race, you get a new JTA bus and I'll... oops, what do you mean your stuck?


Whatever system we choose, we've got to reproduce some of our unique cars, how about this LOUNGE CAR for the JAXIWOOD MOVIE Elite?


Of course they only work in dense areas, today we call this place LOS ANGELES.


Once funded, construction moves very fast - 4-6 blocks per month is possible

Gee that was fun, any questions?


OCKLAWAHA

[uptowngirl]

The street cars are great, buses not. I still do not think we should have our historic district clogged up with buses so a couple of people in Brentwood can get downtown. DT to FCCJ? Please! Why can't anyone walk or rid a bike anymore? I am telling you the buses that go down Pearl right now are mostly empty...why are we discussing this anyhow? Fill up the damn buses and then talk to us about needing increased service. No one in this neighborhood with any type of investment, and I mean no one is going to support this running down Pearl or Blvd in the Historic District. As I type this I just heard three gun shots from over behind Shands....yep these are the people I want riding the bus to any retail we may have in our district. Make a BRT line with an express from Brentwood and Lincoln court to San Marco then we can talk!

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4146.30/topicseen.html


IF, Metro Jacksonville is supporting this then I am very disappointed, very disappointed indeed. I understand ya'll are about transportation, but killing neighborhoods and the value of their homes, businesses, and quality of life should take precedent over a new bus line.

[thelakelander]

I can't speak for Metro Jacksonville, but I have no problem with a dependable bus line running on a four lane commercial corridor, like Main.  While I do not think that they are compatible along the residential sections of Boulevard (moreso Brentwood/New Springfield than Springfield), they are fine if they serve commercial corridors.  To me, it feels like several don't fully understand how an integrated mass transit system properly runs.

I could understand, if a proposal came along that limited accessibility to everyone in favor of dedicated bus lanes with buses that ran every 90 seconds.  But I'd challenge anyone on this site to prove that a limited service bus route (one bus every 10 minutes), resulting in the elimination of dupicate routes, down a commercial corridor kills it.  That's an improvement from what I can understand.

Also, why does everyone think that this is a streetcar or bus situation?  Reality is, that they are two different transit components that have their own niche.  Both are needed to have a successful regional system.

A. An express bus makes limited stops over a long distance between the core and suburbs.  In this case, it appears to be one stop per neighborhood.

B. A streetcar is typically a more localized service that can make as many stops as one every two or three blocks.

Given this information, it should be expected that they could easily overlap along certain corridors.  So, I have no problem with JTA wanting to improve the poor system that is currently running today.  My major wish is that an integrated transit master plan (showing how all the modes complement each other) is put together first and sold to the community before they move forward with anything.

[uptowngirl]

I guess the issue is it is not all commercial we are speaking of here. There are major portions (with the exception of Main St.) that are residential and would be hurt by the plan. Add to that the fact that in a lot of cases, we don't need to make it easier for some riders to get to certain areas. Lastly, and again.... fill up the busses that are currently running. These buses tool around not even half full, it is a waste of money. I am still trying to figure out where these people are going that they need a bus every ten minutes? Can anyone tell me? The busstops around here are usually full of people sitting and drinking....not waiting to ride the bus.

[thelakelander]

I think one of the reasons they are doing this is to fill up existing buses and make the system more attractive.  The buses used would be the newer ones already running on the streets today.  The system will just be revamped to make it more attractive for all, from my understanding.   

However, I agree with you position, regarding Boulevard Street.  People would be hurt by such a plan along that corridor.

[tufsu1]

I am telling you the buses that go down Pearl right now are mostly empty...why are we discussing this anyhow? Fill up the damn buses and then talk to us about needing increased service.

This is the kind of logic that anti-transit people make....and it will be the hardest thing for JTA to overcome if/when they decide to invest in a rail system.

[civil42806]

I am telling you the buses that go down Pearl right now are mostly empty...why are we discussing this anyhow? Fill up the damn buses and then talk to us about needing increased service.

This is the kind of logic that anti-transit people make....and it will be the hardest thing for JTA to overcome if/when they decide to invest in a rail system.

Why is that illogical, as Spock would say.  If the current buses aren't being used why would anything else magically cause the ridership to increase?

[Steve]

Because by creating a better QOS, you will naturally enhance riders.  Let me ask you something, what looks better, an 85 Ford, or an 05 Ford.  Buses should never be mistaken for Rail, and JTA's quotes in the recent past about buses being like rail are crazy.  However, you can't have rail only.  The City Of New York has the largest passenger rail transit network on America, and I believe they have more buses than anyone as well.  You need them both.  Just like crazy Uncle Ned makes your family complete, buses make a transit network complete.

By having dedicated bus corridors, you can more easily invest the money for nicer stops, better headways, signal priorities, etc.

And also, I can't speak for MJ as a whole, but I do not endorse this service on a residential street.