Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour

[tufsu1]

utg is just mad that the route comes through Springfield...tha fact is, the only Sprinfield street that isn't primarily residential is Main St.

but the reality is all we're talking about is more frequent bus service...even the San Marco folks living on San Jose would probably favor that!

[thelakelander]

Jefferson meets 10th at a curved intersection in front of the UF Proton Therapy Institute (the BRT wouldn't even have to stop), so it could easily jog back onto Boulevard. Or better, yet, jog west onto Davis.

1. Boulevard north of Shands is more residential than it is in Springfield.

2. Davis is more residential north of 8th as well.

3. Davis does not go north of MLK Parkway.

Because of these factors, a Jefferson/Davis path does not solve the issue of additional bus traffic on narrow residential streets (I'm thinking about more than just Springfield on this issue).

With out a doubt, a bus corridor connecting several northside neighborhoods is better suited for commercial strips

I disagree completely. The doubt factor is that part of the "commercial strip" goes through a National Historic District. More buses on Main would negatively impact the historic character of the community in the same way an increased bus load on Riverside Avenue (instead of the more historically-appropriate potato-chip buses, a.k.a. "trolleys") would.

As much of the historic district character that can be replaced or salvaged should be. Optimally, all buses (not the faux trolley variety) should be shifted out of the historic district, and shorter-line connectors that are sensitive to the history of the area should replace the sections of the routes within the main historic district area.

Definately disagree on these points.  It would be a negative for the historic district to attempt to separate itself from the surrounding neighborhoods, via street closings or by limiting reliable bus service.  Springfield does not have the demographics to be its own vibrant island.  Main Street businesses are being exposed to every rider who travels along that corridor.  An attractive stop at 8th & Main would increase pedestrian traffic/customer base for adjacent retailers.  Its also bad business to plan any type of transit system that does not connect with commercial destinations.  A service that avoids everything is one that will also struggle to attract decent ridership.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

If the "BRT" were shifted to Jefferson, with a major stop at Jefferson & 8th, Shands complex is served, and connectivity through the historic district could be achieved with a trolley route that goes on 8th to Main (close enough to Rosa Parks to make major connections there), then all the way to Bay St. via Main, and the Landing via Laura. Then you've got historically sensitive connectivity throughout Jacksonville's historic core (even to Riverside/Avondale).

A shift to Jefferson does nothing for the residential distict along Boulevard, north of Shands and the railroad tracks.  Its important to acknowledge that the Rapid Bus plan does not revolve around the historic district.  Springfield is one of many Northside neighborhoods that the corridor will be set up to provide reliable service to.  To create a viable integrated transportation system, we have to plan from a higher viewpoint.

I don't want to see more buses in Springfield's historic district. There are at least 4 routes that operate on Main now, and they are a loud, belching hindrance to a pedestrian-friendly commercial corridor.

Ideally, the purpose of BRT, Rapid bus or whatever, is to consolidate the duplication of multiple routes, in an attractive fashion.  My hope would be that, if it ended up on Main, the corridor would have less routes with better frequencies.

[uptowngirl]

Springfield is the only neighborhood with houses worth more than 50K, and with the lowest crime rate amongst them all.

Tufsu are you smoking crack again? If San Marco, Riverside, and Avondale would love BRT then sell it to them...I do not think you will get the support of the neighborhoods here but that won;t stop the city from doing it anyway.

I do not have as much issue with Blvd or Main, and both of those streets make more sense, but Pearl is mostly residential (with the exception of a few blocks north of 12th). Why not put the route on the other side of 95 and loop down one of the main streets DT?

I also do not see any company relocating (or just locating for that matter) on this proposed bus route. I would not see that even before this economy, but certainly not after. The people this route would be servicing are not office worker downtown. It is another example of stupid. An BRT route to Regency would make more sense for these potential customers...hey how about we fill up one of the exisitng buses on this route before we add twenty more?

You will be hard pressed to find supporters of this in any of the neighborhoods from 1st st. up. BUILD A LIGHT RAIL for God's Sake!

[tufsu1]

so UTG....you don't think buses belong on the streets of Springfield....but a light rail or trolley line running on the street would be fine?

[thelakelander]

I do not have as much issue with Blvd or Main, and both of those streets make more sense, but Pearl is mostly residential (with the exception of a few blocks north of 12th). Why not put the route on the other side of 95 and loop down one of the main streets DT?

I'm still confused as to why anyone would not want dependable bus service in Springfield.  After all, it is an urban neighborhood.  As for the mention of Pearl as an alternative corridor, it works better for Brentwood/New Springfield, while something like Jefferson would work better for Springfield.  A compromise could be to run down Pearl (north of 12th) and switch over to Boulevard/Jefferson somewhere between the railroad tracks and 12th Street.   Imo, outside of not directly hitting Shands, Main makes the most sense for good bus service (I'm no longer calling this line BRT because it does not meet the definition).

I also do not see any company relocating (or just locating for that matter) on this proposed bus route. I would not see that even before this economy, but certainly not after. The people this route would be servicing are not office worker downtown.

I can't imagine a large company locating on Main because JTA enhancing their bus service, but I could see business increasing at places near stops like Carl's, Shantytown, Chan's, The Pearl, etc.  The successful the existing businesses are, the better chance the community will have to attract more.  At the end of the day, that's what everyone should want for a struggling commercial district. 

As for attracting a diverse range of riders, if service were dependable and clean, it would be hard to prove that ridership levels would not increase.

It is another example of stupid. An BRT route to Regency would make more sense for these potential customers...hey how about we fill up one of the exisitng buses on this route before we add twenty more?

Better bus service is needed to Regency as well.  Hopefully the elimination of multiple routes down the same corridor will result in higher ridership on the typical bus all across town.

You will be hard pressed to find supporters of this in any of the neighborhoods from 1st st. up. BUILD A LIGHT RAIL for God's Sake!

Light rail serves a different market than the typical bus.  They have to work together to successful.  Rail will fail if it does not have reliable bus service to feed riders into rail corridors.  In the end, JTA is never going to build local support around the their bus plans without making the rail spine their main priority.  It will be an easier sell to repackage what ever their master plan is as rail (first) with enhanced express bus feeder lines complementing it.  If I were JTA, I'd just pick a route, consolidate a few lines and start running regular buses, at decent frequencies, down the chosen corridor.  By doing this, it would free up the BJP money to help implement rail sooner rather than later (assuming Peyton does not take it).

[downtownparks]

so UTG....you don't think buses belong on the streets of Springfield....but a light rail or trolley line running on the street would be fine?

I would agree with that with some caveats.

Buses do not belong on residential streets. The first two years we lived on Laura St, Main St buses were re-routed up Laura. They shake the entire house, the seem like they are moving a million miles an hour (im sure they were doing the speed limit, but 30 mph in a bus seems much faster). In general they drop the quality of life for those unfortunate enough to have frontage with a bus line.

buses are fine for what they are. Street cars are a different animal. It may only be a romantic difference, but if you went and asked all the folks in San Fran "Hey, we are going to replace your trolleys with buses. The service will be exactly the same, same stations, same times, same service... What do you think the response would be?

I guess a similar comparison would be road materials. Streets in this neighborhood are really bumpy and crappy. However, I think many people in SPR would love to see brick roads put back. Still bumpy, but a romantic quality, and an asset to the neighborhood.

[thelakelander]

Does San Fran not have a bus system?  Or do they have a truly integrated transit system?  It should not be either or.  Both are needed and they should be set up to complement each other.  I think the struggle locally comes by not having a developed master transit plan before pushing things like this through.  JTA needs to sell the community on an overall vision and set up to implement it appropriately.  At this point, that's not happening.

[downtownparks]

Oh, certainly it does. And nobody is suggesting that busses be shut down, even in Springfield. They just cant compare to a street car line.

[thelakelander]

No, they can't.  Any type of rail based mass transit option will appeal to the masses more than buses.  I definitely agree.

[thelakelander]

I also agree that running buses every 10 minutes down single family residential dominated streets would be a disaster.

[9a is my backyard]

Has JTA said what the frequency/headways of the bus system would be?

[tufsu1]

San Fran has a fully integrated system, including buses, trolleys, cable cars, and subways...now one of the things that makes San Fran (and Seattle) a bit different is that many/most of the buses are either trackless trolleys (overhead electric lines) or natural gas....the result is a much cleaner and quieter than traditional buses.

Getting overhead electric lines approved in the NIMBY world we live in now is very difficult, but maybe JTA can explore natural gas buses.

[Bike Jax]

now one of the things that makes San Fran (and Seattle) a bit different is

...is that that you can set your watch by their buses which cover the entire city unlike JTA. And which also arrive at any and all stops every 15 minutes unlike the every hour (a few 1/2 hour peak time stops) stop times of JTA.

I think that is one of the biggest red flags for this whole BRT plan for me. JTA can't operate a normal bus service in a timely and efficient manner. How the hell do they expect me to believe they can operate a BRT?   

[zoo]

thelakelander
Re: Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour

Does San Fran not have a bus system?  Or do they have a truly integrated transit system?  It should not be either or.  Both are needed and they should be set up to complement each other.  I think the struggle locally comes by not having a developed master transit plan before pushing things like this through.  JTA needs to sell the community on an overall vision and set up to implement it appropriately.  At this point, that's not happening.

downtownparks
January 3, 2009, 11:21 am
Re: Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour

Oh, certainly it does. And nobody is suggesting that busses be shut down, even in Springfield. They just cant compare to a street car line.

thelakelander
January 3, 2009, 11:24 am
Re: Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour

No, they can't.  Any type of rail based mass transit option will appeal to the masses more than buses.  I definitely agree.

That sums it up. Integrated is what's needed here, not just more of an option that already exists (no more bus traffic on Main, Pearl, 8th, 7th, 1st or any other streets in the Historic District, please). Lake, if, with metrojacksonville.com's support (which might be presumed based on your posts), JTA gets increased busing on Main, how urgently do you think it will consider a historically-appropriate trolley or a streetcar, both options that would bring riders to the Main/8th St corridors at a commercially viable level? The answer to that is probably never, "because we're already serving northsiders with our lovely non-walkable-friendly BRT system." I'll take no additional transit ruining the character of Springfield's residential OR commercial areas before I'll take either the Boulevard or Main St. options.

You are correct that the Springfield Historic District alone cannot support retail. But the district, plus Shands, UF, VA, State and County boards of Health, Bethel Baptist, Downtown, and the connectivity with the Riverside/Avondale trolley and a future San Marco trolley, can. Not that I'm suggesting keeping anyone else interested in dining or purchasing in Springfield from doing so - anyone that wants to spend money here (legally) can, but they can just as easily come on a connecting, and yes, integrated, trolley or streetcar route that uses Main and 8th.

I also don't want to be separated from what will someday be a terrific park system. The park system is included within the boundaries of the Historic District. Boulevard as an option shouldn't even be discussed, let alone been included in a second, ill-thought-out, tentative plan. Crossing Boulevard at the blind curve at 5th is already a deadly proposition. Would you send your 7-year-old across Boulevard on his bicycle if the bus load were increased by 8 double-sized buses/hour?!?! You have already said in many posts that State/Union are a major barrier to Springfield/Downtown connectivity. Well, BRT on Boulevard is a major barrier to Historic District/Park connectivity - this should not happen.

If we take that connectivity argument of yours further, the west side of the District and the east side of the district, nor the south and north sides, should not be MORE separated than they already are by the non-pedestrian-friendly medians and existing bus traffic, by increasing bus traffic on Main or 8th.

If you don't want to run the route through the neighborhoods north of Shands/UF, fine. Perhaps the route should go partially back to the original proposal of using 95? So from the transit center, it would use Boulevard (to State or 1st), Jefferson to 8th, 95, then off at Golfair/Brentwood/Lem Turner (however it would make sense up there) on the North end.

[Ocklawaha]

Bike Jax
January 2, 2009, 5:10 am
Re: Touring the Northside: BRT North Corridor Photo Tour

I wish we would stop calling this plan of JTA's a BRT. It is not a BRT. BRT's run in lanes physically separated from any other lanes of traffic. Those BRT lanes and stops look more like a something a train would run on than a lane of traffic. These Separated lanes are not affected by other traffic, be it crossing paths or delayed by accidents that block the BRT lane.

Sorry but this is incorrect. BRT is more of a "Cafe" of bus toys then a defined system. Many true BRT lines operate in HOV lanes, reserved lanes, some mix it up with traffic, while others do have the track structure that you describe.

BRT is a combination of several features:

REAL TIME information
Close headways
Limited Stops
Que Jumping
Signal Control
Pre-paid entry
enhanced stations
HOV lanes
Private lanes
high capacity vehicles

Any system today that buys into BRT makes it's own choices on how deep they want to spend. Thus the newer terms BRT-QUICKWAY (a totally independent roadway) or BRT-Light-Rail-Lite (which sort of says we wish we had Light Rail but all we could build was this cheap "Lite" copy).

BEFORE BRT comes to JACKSONVILLE:

JTA NEEDS TO:

Start running the core lines LIKE-BRT

Increase headways from hourly to half hour to 15 minutes

Take out all fare collection onboard the vehicles

Offer free route transfers (wouldn't it be cool IF they knew which routes connected the most with others?)

Start offering limited stops on some of the express services they now have. For example a beach flyer roars down JTB and blows right past San Pablo (Mayo), Hodges (commercial-residential), Kernan UNF... etc... These need to be railroad like side of the road pull-out stops.

If the passengers are not taught how to use a decent service, then when one is suddenly sprung on them, they won't respond. Passengers need to be introduced to these concepts BEFORE we dump a few million dollars.

Also, I too have toured the line, PEARL makes MUCH more sense on the North End. Maybe a route from Rosa Parks/FCCJ - Up Main - 8Th - Shands on BLVD - jog back to Pearl for the run north to Gateway. This is why a busway alongside the "S" line and running from Moncrief Road to Main Street would make so much damn sense.

OCKLAWAHA