Author Topic: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan  (Read 21117 times)

Jax_Developer

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2024, 08:02:02 AM »
Btw, no point in reporting on all the stadium deals. This is the largest stadium renovation by a long shot. The only worse stadium deals (for the local taxpayer) are Cincinnati & Indianapolis. We are right there at third when this is completed. The commonality of the three being the lack of state/private funding.

Then again, the Bengals are investing up to $200M for upgrades, all privately financed... a dollar amount similar to other stadium renovations... without a new lease that expires in 2026...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 08:03:35 AM by Jax_Developer »

Tacachale

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #91 on: May 29, 2024, 11:10:09 PM »
The CBA is nothing more than feel good politics. The actual impact of the funds from the Jags will never be seen by 99.99% of people. The actual giving amount is less than $100M when inflation is factored in... so this magical $50M increase is not real but a nice big number that makes people feel better.

"The goal of the city's commitment, Weinstein said, was to leverage the Jaguars to increase their contribution from $100 million to $150 million."

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2024/05/29/jagaurs-jacksonville-deal.html

We also get to maintain 5500 parking spaces for 30 years, with virtually zero revenue from it. The annual amount the city will be paying every year to keep the terms of this agreement alive, will eclipse the $3M annual gift the Jags will write.  ;D

Not sure what math realtors use, but I’m pretty sure 150 million is a bigger number than 100 million. At any rate, the city’s $150 million will be up front while the Jags money comes in year over year, so we’re not sitting around to get things started while prices rise and we waste more time waiting.

Btw, no point in reporting on all the stadium deals. This is the largest stadium renovation by a long shot. The only worse stadium deals (for the local taxpayer) are Cincinnati & Indianapolis. We are right there at third when this is completed. The commonality of the three being the lack of state/private funding.

Then again, the Bengals are investing up to $200M for upgrades, all privately financed... a dollar amount similar to other stadium renovations... without a new lease that expires in 2026...

So state funding isn’t taxpayer funding? Wish I’d known that in the 14 years I worked for the state!

I wasn't polled but the CBA is what I like most about the stadium deal. It provides additional quality of life benefits for the entire community that a stadium only deal would never come close to accomplishing.

It’s a good way to ensure the benefits of this investment are spread around across the community, and knock off some priorities without having to take out as much debt or wait for years. I’m proud it’s in there.
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Jax_Developer

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2024, 08:26:22 AM »
The CBA is nothing more than feel good politics. The actual impact of the funds from the Jags will never be seen by 99.99% of people. The actual giving amount is less than $100M when inflation is factored in... so this magical $50M increase is not real but a nice big number that makes people feel better.

"The goal of the city's commitment, Weinstein said, was to leverage the Jaguars to increase their contribution from $100 million to $150 million."

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2024/05/29/jagaurs-jacksonville-deal.html

We also get to maintain 5500 parking spaces for 30 years, with virtually zero revenue from it. The annual amount the city will be paying every year to keep the terms of this agreement alive, will eclipse the $3M annual gift the Jags will write.  ;D

Not sure what math realtors use, but I’m pretty sure 150 million is a bigger number than 100 million. At any rate, the city’s $150 million will be up front while the Jags money comes in year over year, so we’re not sitting around to get things started while prices rise and we waste more time waiting.

Btw, no point in reporting on all the stadium deals. This is the largest stadium renovation by a long shot. The only worse stadium deals (for the local taxpayer) are Cincinnati & Indianapolis. We are right there at third when this is completed. The commonality of the three being the lack of state/private funding.

Then again, the Bengals are investing up to $200M for upgrades, all privately financed... a dollar amount similar to other stadium renovations... without a new lease that expires in 2026...

So state funding isn’t taxpayer funding? Wish I’d known that in the 14 years I worked for the state!

I wasn't polled but the CBA is what I like most about the stadium deal. It provides additional quality of life benefits for the entire community that a stadium only deal would never come close to accomplishing.

It’s a good way to ensure the benefits of this investment are spread around across the community, and knock off some priorities without having to take out as much debt or wait for years. I’m proud it’s in there.

Ah yes, back to the name calling. Very professional of a mayor's official to do. Idk what math politicians & english majors use, but there is this thing called inflation. Yeah crazy right? Forgot about that at the negotiation table when you tried to get creative? Sure seems like it. The relocation clause is a joke. Remember... inflation? Oh yeah silly me, I'm just a realtor. Really would have been quite easy to put a 2% inflation clause in there...

Here is a reminder on the definition for you:

"a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money"

Ah yeah, this is too complicated to understand basic tax structures. Good response there lol. So hard to understand why the stadium would deserve a tax pool outside of duval. Let's put our thinking hats on.  ::)

Added: The fact that I am even having *this* conversation with a Mayor's official, who knows this deal, should tell anyone they need to know about how poorly the city has negotiated for the taxpayer. A lack of understanding of basic finance, coupled with blinding amounts of copium, this city needs stronger leaders who truly understand the responsibility of their position (JEA, JTA, etc.).

Double Added: In the entire 60-page draft agreement, that spans 30-years, there isn't a single mention of inflation. Absolutely incredible.  8)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 08:43:54 AM by Jax_Developer »

Jax_Developer

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #93 on: May 30, 2024, 08:47:14 AM »
https://www.news10.com/sports/buffalo-bills-stadium-discussions/bills-stadium-gets-final-governmental-approval-construction-can-begin/#:~:text=The%20new%20stadium%20is%20projected,of%20the%2030%2Dyear%20lease.

"The final agreement on the stadium between New York State, Erie County and the Bills was reached on April 4. The new stadium is projected to create roughly 10,000 jobs and the deal’s Community Benefits Agreement includes the Bills investing $3 million annually. Adjusting for inflation, that will likely amount to about $100 million over the course of the 30-year lease."

Wow, look at that? A news agency reporting on real dollars versus inflated dollars? No way... not in Jacksonville. Luckily, we don't have that inflation thing here.

Tacachale

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2024, 06:51:58 PM »
The CBA is nothing more than feel good politics. The actual impact of the funds from the Jags will never be seen by 99.99% of people. The actual giving amount is less than $100M when inflation is factored in... so this magical $50M increase is not real but a nice big number that makes people feel better.

"The goal of the city's commitment, Weinstein said, was to leverage the Jaguars to increase their contribution from $100 million to $150 million."

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2024/05/29/jagaurs-jacksonville-deal.html

We also get to maintain 5500 parking spaces for 30 years, with virtually zero revenue from it. The annual amount the city will be paying every year to keep the terms of this agreement alive, will eclipse the $3M annual gift the Jags will write.  ;D

Not sure what math realtors use, but I’m pretty sure 150 million is a bigger number than 100 million. At any rate, the city’s $150 million will be up front while the Jags money comes in year over year, so we’re not sitting around to get things started while prices rise and we waste more time waiting.

Btw, no point in reporting on all the stadium deals. This is the largest stadium renovation by a long shot. The only worse stadium deals (for the local taxpayer) are Cincinnati & Indianapolis. We are right there at third when this is completed. The commonality of the three being the lack of state/private funding.

Then again, the Bengals are investing up to $200M for upgrades, all privately financed... a dollar amount similar to other stadium renovations... without a new lease that expires in 2026...

So state funding isn’t taxpayer funding? Wish I’d known that in the 14 years I worked for the state!

I wasn't polled but the CBA is what I like most about the stadium deal. It provides additional quality of life benefits for the entire community that a stadium only deal would never come close to accomplishing.

It’s a good way to ensure the benefits of this investment are spread around across the community, and knock off some priorities without having to take out as much debt or wait for years. I’m proud it’s in there.

Ah yes, back to the name calling. Very professional of a mayor's official to do. Idk what math politicians & english majors use, but there is this thing called inflation. Yeah crazy right? Forgot about that at the negotiation table when you tried to get creative? Sure seems like it. The relocation clause is a joke. Remember... inflation? Oh yeah silly me, I'm just a realtor. Really would have been quite easy to put a 2% inflation clause in there...

Here is a reminder on the definition for you:

"a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money"

Ah yeah, this is too complicated to understand basic tax structures. Good response there lol. So hard to understand why the stadium would deserve a tax pool outside of duval. Let's put our thinking hats on.  ::)

Added: The fact that I am even having *this* conversation with a Mayor's official, who knows this deal, should tell anyone they need to know about how poorly the city has negotiated for the taxpayer. A lack of understanding of basic finance, coupled with blinding amounts of copium, this city needs stronger leaders who truly understand the responsibility of their position (JEA, JTA, etc.).

Double Added: In the entire 60-page draft agreement, that spans 30-years, there isn't a single mention of inflation. Absolutely incredible.  8)

We’re having this conversation because you came onto my site and posted misinformed takes that I responded to. However, while I was being glib I definitely didn't mean to insult you. I think your comments here are dead wrong, but if I offended you I apologize.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

jaxoNOLE

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #95 on: May 31, 2024, 11:46:34 AM »
I understand the criticism of media coverage ignoring the effects of the timing of dollars, which does skew the split in the Jags' favor from an NPV perspective relative to nominal dollars. Another log to add to that fire: the sliding scale if the Jags leave early really means the expected value term of the lease extension is 21.5 years.

However, I don't think it indicts the deal that's been struck. Yes, this may be a far worse deal for Duval taxpayers than stadium deals in other jurisdictions. But what leverage did the Mayor have to force other counties' taxpayers to chip in? Even if the Jags felt charitable and agreed to foot 60% of the bill, why would the NFL owners approve that? They don't care if the taxpayer funds are concentrated or distributed. Keep in mind also that Duval taxpayers benefit whenever Orlando, Tampa, or Miami want to upgrade their stadium/arena facilities because we don't subsidize them with our state tax dollars, either.

Stipulating that stadium subsidies are generally a bad deal for taxpayers everywhere, it's fair to say this is a bad deal primarily because of circumstances outside the city's control. The CBA makes it less bad (my opinion, of course). Alleging that the city is paying $150M now to get an extra $50M deferred is a bit disingenuous, because it assumes the city wouldn't have had to spend any of that $150M otherwise. It seems more like a political maneuver to bundle some of Deegan's policy priorities in with a stadium deal to avoid debating them separately, and I think this read is reinforced by Rory Diamond's immediate opposition to it despite it's popularity with the public. If the city $150M is stripped out, I'd easily bet most of it comes back as standalone spending proposals, but without the extra $50M from the Jags to assist (which is still worth $28.8M in today's money assuming equal annual payments and inflation tracking hot at 4% for the next 30 years). Investing $150M today to realize an increase in present value purchasing power of $28.8M is a 19% ROI. Seems pretty solid to me.

Let's assume miserably unfavorable borrowing conditions. If the city bonds out the $150M at 8% over a 30 year term, assuming the same 4% inflation rate, the present value of future payments is $230M. That's still a 12.5% ROI. Looked at differently, securing $178.8M in purchasing power by bonding out $150M at 8% over 30 years is equivalent to borrowing the full $178.8M over 30 years for about 6.25%.
If the city issues at a 4% rate, inflation offsets the cost of borrowing, raising ROI and imputing a 2.6% equivalent interest rate if the full $178.8M had to be borrowed.

If someone is politically opposed to the priorities included in the CBA money, fine -- that's politics. If someone if philosophically opposed to subsidizing stadium deals, perfectly reasonable. I don't, however, think the inflation-adjusted numbers support the assertion that the CBA itself is a loser at the margins.

CityLife

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2024, 02:23:02 PM »
Keep in mind also that Duval taxpayers benefit whenever Orlando, Tampa, or Miami want to upgrade their stadium/arena facilities because we don't subsidize them with our state tax dollars, either.

Great post. I agree with most of it, but just wanted to point out that Orlando, Tampa, and Miami contribute substantially more tax dollars to the state than Duval County does. Roughly 80% of the state's revenue comes from sales tax. Duval County is just above 1 million residents and is only Florida's 6th most populous county. It only makes up about 4.4% of the state's permanent population. When you factor in that there are substantially more part time residents in places like SE and SW Florida and the Tampa Bay area, that percentage goes down even lower. Then factor in that Orlando and South Florida get exponentially more tourists and Tampa Bay presumably gets a healthy bit more. All that (and the fact that there is more wealth in other areas) adds up to those places contributing a much greater share of Florida's sales tax revenue (and other sources) than Jax.

State support of the Jags stadium would likely disproportionally benefit Jax taxpayers relative to the two other NFL cities in the state, and as has been pointed out, would at least give the surrounding counties some skin the game. 

Jax_Developer

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #97 on: May 31, 2024, 03:10:30 PM »
Tacachale, I appreciate your work for the city, I don't think I'm saying misinformation. The lack of reporting on the deal is frustrating. I'm going to leave it at that.

I'm not going to comment on this again since it really won't matter, but jaxNOLE that breakdown is great. The simple very simple conversation is about what the Jags offered vs. what is being brought forth to us now. The stadium got VE'd, and we got the Jags to increase their split... great with that.

But we also killed a $500M development where the city was expected to pay less than 20%. Will there be another agreement in the future? Maybe, likely there will be a public incentive package much higher than 20%. Another reason why inflation is such a big deal here, is the mandated terms of agreement imply real public dollars will be spent to maintain "accessory" items for stadium events. Items like: acres of parking, security, trash etc... All of those items will become much more expensive with time... More importantly, the true impact to the Eastside, for funds received in 2050, is negligible. The relocation clause really doesn't mean anything. The team's revenue in 15-30 years will eclipse a partial 2024 dollar amount.

I'm not political about the CBA, I genuinely believe the benefits of the CBA are far overstated & the alternative would have yielded city revenues that far exceed $5M in 2050. (Basic economic theory would prove this.) I'm also not arguing for the state to partially fund the stadium deal, but the optics of spending discretionary funds towards a CBA, when we are years behind on simple infrastructure projects, yield criticism of where local funds are being spent. I have dozens of lots waiting on sewer with written emails from years ago stating how these projects will be done by 2022-2023. Couldn't imagine if I was a resident in one of these areas.

thelakelander

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #98 on: May 31, 2024, 03:59:51 PM »
What's the alternative to the CBA? I missed that part. Also, what $500 million development was killed?
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jaxoNOLE

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #99 on: May 31, 2024, 04:36:01 PM »
Keep in mind also that Duval taxpayers benefit whenever Orlando, Tampa, or Miami want to upgrade their stadium/arena facilities because we don't subsidize them with our state tax dollars, either.

Great post. I agree with most of it, but just wanted to point out that Orlando, Tampa, and Miami contribute substantially more tax dollars to the state than Duval County does. Roughly 80% of the state's revenue comes from sales tax. Duval County is just above 1 million residents and is only Florida's 6th most populous county. It only makes up about 4.4% of the state's permanent population. When you factor in that there are substantially more part time residents in places like SE and SW Florida and the Tampa Bay area, that percentage goes down even lower. Then factor in that Orlando and South Florida get exponentially more tourists and Tampa Bay presumably gets a healthy bit more. All that (and the fact that there is more wealth in other areas) adds up to those places contributing a much greater share of Florida's sales tax revenue (and other sources) than Jax.

State support of the Jags stadium would likely disproportionally benefit Jax taxpayers relative to the two other NFL cities in the state, and as has been pointed out, would at least give the surrounding counties some skin the game.

Also great points; it's certainly not an equal benefit given those realities. We'll never really know what the ask may have been if state dollars were on the table, either.

I'm not political about the CBA, I genuinely believe the benefits of the CBA are far overstated & the alternative would have yielded city revenues that far exceed $5M in 2050. (Basic economic theory would prove this.) I'm also not arguing for the state to partially fund the stadium deal, but the optics of spending discretionary funds towards a CBA, when we are years behind on simple infrastructure projects, yield criticism of where local funds are being spent. I have dozens of lots waiting on sewer with written emails from years ago stating how these projects will be done by 2022-2023. Couldn't imagine if I was a resident in one of these areas.

The word "political" has gained a very negative connotation, but I don't mean it to be in this instance. Debating whether the CBA is the best use of $150M city dollars is, at its core, a policy argument. Where do our priorities belong as a city? I merely sought to demonstrate the CBA isn't a financial albatross. If you don't trust the money will be spent well, it doesn't matter how financially sound a deal it is -- for example, if the Jags were volunteering to fund the entire U2C project, I'd be staunchly opposed anyway. Heck, just yesterday I lamented in another thread how unimpressed I am with city stewardship of our tax dollars. But then, that's more of a philosophical opposition to government discretionary spending that isn't particularized to the stadium deal.

I think you nailed it a while back, when you said something to the effect of "We want an NFL team, and we're willing to pay through the nose to have one." Clearly, we don't have the same level of conviction about effective mass transit, sewer, or any of the many other things we could choose to prioritize.

What's the alternative to the CBA? I missed that part. Also, what $500 million development was killed?

I think the $500 million is a reference to the entertainment district.

thelakelander

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #100 on: May 31, 2024, 05:25:11 PM »
Oh okay. I was confused since they've been clear on why it's not being included in the stadium deal. It's not dead. It just isn't being looped into this specific deal.
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Ken_FSU

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #101 on: May 31, 2024, 05:26:11 PM »
Also, what $500 million development was killed?

The original stadium deal floated involved a 50/50 split on around $2 billion in work for both the stadium and an adjacent entertainment district.

Under that framework:

1) The City paid $934 million for stadium renovations (67%) and the Jags would pay $466 million (33%).
2) The City would pay $75-$100 million for an entertainment district (14%), and the Jags would pay the remaining $500+ million (86%)

Under the new framework, which came at the city's request and Jags' approval, bifurcates the stadium and entertainment district into separate deals.

Under the new framework:

1) The City pays $750 million for stadium renovations, including $150m in deferred maintenance (55%) and the Jags pay $625 (45%).
2) The City pays ? for the an entertainment district, and the Jags pay ?.

I'd expect the city's contribution to an eventual entertainment district to be larger than what was proposed above, based on the new framework for the stadium, and would eventually expect the combined public/private contribution for both projects to be close to the same 50/50 originally floated, just distributed a little bit differently. $250 million would be my guess, netting out to around $1 billion in public dollars for the full project.


Jax_Developer

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2024, 11:27:29 AM »
Also, what $500 million development was killed?

The original stadium deal floated involved a 50/50 split on around $2 billion in work for both the stadium and an adjacent entertainment district.

Under that framework:

1) The City paid $934 million for stadium renovations (67%) and the Jags would pay $466 million (33%).
2) The City would pay $75-$100 million for an entertainment district (14%), and the Jags would pay the remaining $500+ million (86%)

Under the new framework, which came at the city's request and Jags' approval, bifurcates the stadium and entertainment district into separate deals.

Under the new framework:

1) The City pays $750 million for stadium renovations, including $150m in deferred maintenance (55%) and the Jags pay $625 (45%).
2) The City pays ? for the an entertainment district, and the Jags pay ?.

I'd expect the city's contribution to an eventual entertainment district to be larger than what was proposed above, based on the new framework for the stadium, and would eventually expect the combined public/private contribution for both projects to be close to the same 50/50 originally floated, just distributed a little bit differently. $250 million would be my guess, netting out to around $1 billion in public dollars for the full project.

Okay, I lied. My actual last comment.

This is exactly right Ken. But it's likely even more expensive than that:

1). $775M for the stadium
2). $150M for the CBA
3). ?? Entertainment District Deal (time frame matters)

More importantly, maintaining 5000+ parking spaces for 30 years? Do we not realize where 2,000+ parking spots are currently designated? The city quite literally cannot afford to build parking. So, I'd really like to see what is put forth on this entertainment deal but I don't think it's accurate to fault me for being slightly pessimistic of the potential scope of the incentives dealt to an Entertainment District. And parking.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2024, 11:32:42 AM by Jax_Developer »

marcuscnelson

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #103 on: June 03, 2024, 12:43:18 PM »
Looks like a comparison has finally emerged.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/charlotte-leaders-consider-650m-toward-bank-america-stadium-renovations/3YV645GZXVHHLBRDLDHD5N7KBM/

Charlotte is now considering $650 million in renovations to Bank of America Stadium, to which the owners of the Carolina Panthers would add $150 million and then take on overruns and maintenance costs with a 20-year lease extension. It is unclear if there is a community benefits agreement. Their timeline is much faster for consideration, with a City Council vote expected on June 24th.

Charlotte passed their stadium deal the day before Jacksonville and I feel relieved that we got such a better deal in comparison. We didn’t get everything that might have been liked but Shad Khan is at least putting real money in unlike David Tepper, with a longer lease term and better relocation protection. Things could have been much worse.

Hopefully this means Jax can now turn to other priorities (like again, passing the rest of the CBA). Transit, housing, healthcare, education, libraries, infrastructure like sewers or the jail or whatever exhibition space might replace the Prime Osborn. Should be good for everyone that the stadium is mostly out of the way now.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2024, 11:33:31 AM by marcuscnelson »
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jaxoNOLE

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Re: City unveils Jaguars stadium plan
« Reply #104 on: June 04, 2024, 02:57:35 PM »
Quote
The cost of milling and resurfacing Lot J will be an estimated $933,000 and Lot D will have a $453,000 cost. The estimated expense of cleaning 1,500 feet of drainage pipe along the south side of the stadium and across the top portion of Lot J will be $81,000, Perry said.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2024/06/04/jacksonville-stadium-agreement-with-jaguars-would-repave-parking-lots/73968379007/

Aren't we still expecting an entertainment district deal for Lot J, or is the location expected to change? Not sure why'd we spend this money resurfacing a lot that may not exist in the near-term.