Author Topic: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job  (Read 32781 times)

jcjohnpaint

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2024, 07:09:00 PM »
I think it is super important that the city is aligned with JTA and we are very far from that. It would be nice to see all parts come together, but it always seems like every part works in a vacuum. Also shows why a thorough master plan can make a difference.

Jax_Developer

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2024, 07:41:42 PM »
The unfortunate reality that people just literally can’t comprehend is that our DT is not “desirable” and prices indicate that. I don’t wanna hear about the “rent psf” downtown because that only applies to the Southbank & Brooklyn. Everywhere else in DT has above average vacancy, with below average rent. Throwing up parks on a blighted riverfront doesn’t solve anything in the short-term.

JD, I agree that DT is not desirable.  But, by the end of your statements above, you hit on what I say would help make it desirable so not sure of your approach.  Active parks, attractive streetscapes, good mass transit (WITHIN, not just without, Downtown), quality public infrastructure, historic preservation and good zoning will make DT desirable.  Nothing else will compare despite best efforts by developers.  They can't do it alone.  No developer has the scope and scale to do what City Hall can do to make DT desirable.

I have long advocated that the City should invest in the above before considering incentives for developers to maximize ROI for the taxpayers and developers.  Just look at the pictures of what downtowns look like elsewhere as posted in Jaxson articles.

The only positive we have is, ultimately, the Emerald Trail.  Maybe when City leaders see the impact of that, they will get the message finally.



I think that an investment into the park system is fine, but it needs to be accompanied by a well-positioned master plan for private investment. There really isn't much justification for the Riverfront Park system, unless there is an economic motive at this point. We still have the Riverwalk, the city/government still owns all of the "water" & there are several existing parks on the river. I live DT & I assure you there is no lack of park space. We need to actually finish and utilize what we already have. There are literally 0 food & beverage stands along the entire Riverwalk & I find that ironic considering the scope of what we are building now.

They need to be able to activate the park system to actualize the benefits. I'm super pleased with the investment sparking around the Emerald Trail, and that is an example of a green beltway that I think will bring the city a positive ROI. I'm just pessimistic about the idea that adding more riverfront parks is somehow going to change the blight on the Northbank.

Ultimately, the conversation around the jail is very relevant for this small hyperlocal area, combined with the city owning a lot of acreage compared to private landholders in this 'hyperlocal area'.. It just really doesn't make sense from an urban planning sense. The Gateway development will be the node that sparks the Northbank (I pray) and that will be located more than 5 city blocks from the closest Riverwalk "area" & currently there is a development "vaccum" near the River itself on the Northbank. Hopefully it works out in the LR, but I guarantee you that we will have quite the OPEX before any private investment is going vertical within any proximity of the new park system. Aka, going to be hard to bring life to these 8-figure parks.

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JTA is the biggest "authority" hurdle to DT development, not the DIA.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 07:55:56 PM by Jax_Developer »

fsu813

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2024, 08:18:21 PM »
The unfortunate reality that people just literally can’t comprehend is that our DT is not “desirable” and prices indicate that. I don’t wanna hear about the “rent psf” downtown because that only applies to the Southbank & Brooklyn. Everywhere else in DT has above average vacancy, with below average rent. Throwing up parks on a blighted riverfront doesn’t solve anything in the short-term.

JD, I agree that DT is not desirable.  But, by the end of your statements above, you hit on what I say would help make it desirable so not sure of your approach.  Active parks, attractive streetscapes, good mass transit (WITHIN, not just without, Downtown), quality public infrastructure, historic preservation and good zoning will make DT desirable.  Nothing else will compare despite best efforts by developers.  They can't do it alone.  No developer has the scope and scale to do what City Hall can do to make DT desirable.

I have long advocated that the City should invest in the above before considering incentives for developers to maximize ROI for the taxpayers and developers.  Just look at the pictures of what downtowns look like elsewhere as posted in Jaxson articles.

The only positive we have is, ultimately, the Emerald Trail.  Maybe when City leaders see the impact of that, they will get the message finally.



I think that an investment into the park system is fine, but it needs to be accompanied by a well-positioned master plan for private investment. There really isn't much justification for the Riverfront Park system, unless there is an economic motive at this point. We still have the Riverwalk, the city/government still owns all of the "water" & there are several existing parks on the river. I live DT & I assure you there is no lack of park space. We need to actually finish and utilize what we already have. There are literally 0 food & beverage stands along the entire Riverwalk & I find that ironic considering the scope of what we are building now.

They need to be able to activate the park system to actualize the benefits. I'm super pleased with the investment sparking around the Emerald Trail, and that is an example of a green beltway that I think will bring the city a positive ROI. I'm just pessimistic about the idea that adding more riverfront parks is somehow going to change the blight on the Northbank.

Ultimately, the conversation around the jail is very relevant for this small hyperlocal area, combined with the city owning a lot of acreage compared to private landholders in this 'hyperlocal area'.. It just really doesn't make sense from an urban planning sense. The Gateway development will be the node that sparks the Northbank (I pray) and that will be located more than 5 city blocks from the closest Riverwalk "area" & currently there is a development "vaccum" near the River itself on the Northbank. Hopefully it works out in the LR, but I guarantee you that we will have quite the OPEX before any private investment is going vertical within any proximity of the new park system. Aka, going to be hard to bring life to these 8-figure parks.

--

JTA is the biggest "authority" hurdle to DT development, not the DIA.

Across significantly developed Downtowns, the common regrets are that they didn't plan ahead for affordable housing and they didn't plan ahead for quality public green space. They wish they had more of both. Despite the doom/gloom of the present moment, Jacksonville's Downtown will build up, populate, become more active and dense. Jax is smart to learn lessons from our peers, take steps to secure both affordable housing and green space. Speaking of the later specifically, quality public space is a catalyst for adjacent investment. It's a good model to follow. Jax has 0 high quality parks, so the Average Joe may have a hard time envisioning how a park could incentivize investment, but the investment near Memorial Park and along the Emerald Trail would be most similar. Totally agree that half assing an attempt at a high quality destination park would be a major set back/opportunity lost. Details matter. Hope COJ puts forth the effort to ensure success, which will likely mean getting out of their traditional comfort zone. And I highly doubt that the public will be funding $500+ mill for a billionaires private enterprise, and not fully fund the public spaces that surround them. The optics would cataclysmic.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 08:26:10 PM by fsu813 »

Charles Hunter

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2024, 09:47:10 PM »
One aspect of extensive parkland along the river, instead of private commercial and residential development is a little thing called climate change and rising sea and river levels. A properly designed park can withstand periodic flooding much better than commercial or residential buildings. I guess you could build them on stilts, but what does that do to pedestrian interaction that we all want?

Jax_Developer

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2024, 08:15:27 AM »
I think Charles & Ken we both agree on what we want the outcome to be, we just disagree on how to get there. I want the green space along the river to increase & I want there to be actual amenities (nothing crazy) along our Riverwalk. I just wholeheartedly think there is a very simple solution using code & deed restrictions to achieve a better result.

Charles you mentioned climate control, flooding etc. We as a city are one of the worst prepared DT's for a major flood event according to some study I read up on last year. If I find it I'll attach it here. When you build property that impacts the Riverfront, there are standards that they have to build. Whether it's private or public, theoretically these same standards are met. My argument is that 1). The City has a poor track record at maintaining public spaces. 2). Private investment can generate tons more income to actually justify localized flood prevention systems. 3). The ability to invest into the "existing" park spaces shoots up dramatically.

I think making the land private, while requiring "more" ground-floor green space with retail, makes total sense. Our Riverfront land doesn't need to be built on right to the water, but leaving acres & acres of land to become new park space w/o much else is such a waste of public resources.

I really think what I have in mind achieve's the same goals you both seek Charles & FSU. Our new River Park system will collectively be larger than entire city core downtown's of smaller cities. Us as a city never gave an alternative a real chance, and to this day there really hasn't been any public input on what they are doing now. Just some pop ups with limited seats. Very Jacksonville to just do what's easy instead of trying to make this space generationally beneficial. I really don't think the public has any idea of the true impacts that will be created from this plan & it scares me to think that this could be a huge reason why the Northbank doesn't have that spark it needs near the Riverfront. Berkman II & the old courthouse parcels will basically be the only new development we will see on the River EVER & I find that really shocking.

Ken_FSU

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2024, 09:45:13 AM »
I think Charles & Ken we both agree on what we want the outcome to be, we just disagree on how to get there. I want the green space along I really think what I have in mind achieve's the same goals you both seek Charles & FSU. Our new River Park system will collectively be larger than entire city core downtown's of smaller cities... It scares me to think that this could be a huge reason why the Northbank doesn't have that spark it needs near the Riverfront. Berkman II & the old courthouse parcels will basically be the only new development we will see on the River EVER & I find that really shocking.

I actually do agree with this sentiment is well. As a city, we badly need great riverfront park space, but for how study-happy we are as a metro, it's kind of wild that we've never seen a study commissioned on how much riverfront park space we actually have reasonable demand for in the next 30 years. In a city with dozens of miles of publicly available beachfront, and a downtown that isn't that densely populated, is there truly a market for 8 different riverfront parks totaling something like 80 acres?

1. Metro Park
2. Four Seasons Greenspace
3. Shipyards West
4. Riverfront Plaza Park
5. McCoy's Creek Park
6. Friendship Park
7. RiversEdge Park
8. Times-Union Center Music Heritage Park

To me, just like with the LaVilla Link along the Emerald Trail, I'd almost want to focus all budget and attention on one or two of these parks to start. Add the type of supporting amenities you speak of. Hire good park staff. Program them regularly.

Assuming these parks plans all come to fruition, I worry that we're going to stretch budget and users so thinly across each one that none of them are really going to succeed like they could.

Seems wiser to do fewer parks really, really well than to try to simultaneously park the entire riverfront.

Us as a city never gave an alternative a real chance, and to this day there really hasn't been any public input on what they are doing now. Just some pop ups with limited seats. Very Jacksonville to just do what's easy instead of trying to make this space generationally beneficial. I really don't think the public has any idea of the true impacts that will be created from this plan & it scares me to think that this could be a huge reason why the Northbank doesn't have that spark it needs.

This, to a letter, has been my major frustration with a park that I'd argue has potential to be even more catalytic than anything on the riverfront - James Weldon Johnson Park. Key decisions about the long-term future of maybe the most strategically important block in all of downtown happen in a total vacuum. A great redesign could reinvigorate the whole area generationally. A budget beautification could turn it into a larger Main Street Pocket Park.

CityLife

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2024, 10:06:56 AM »

Quote
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2020/jan/17/the-plan-to-spur-downtown-dining-includes-incentives-for-restaurants/

Here is the list of Jacksonville restaurants that the DIA could target for expansion Downtown. The list was created by the jaxrestaurantreviews.com blog as examples of restaurants that would draw people Downtown. DIA officials said the list is preliminary and restaurants could be added.

• 4 Rivers Smokehouse
• Angie’s Subs
• The Bearded Pig
• Catullo’s
• Cinotti’s Bakery and Sandwich Shop
• Domu
• Doro
• Fish Camps/Valley Smoke
• Fish House Group (Orange Park Fish House, Beach Road Fish & Chicken Dinners)
• The French Pantry
• Le Petit Paris
• Pie95 Pizza and Catering
• Safe Harbor Seafood
• Sliders Oyster Bar
• Picasso’s
• Soul Food Bistro
• Terra Gaucha

Just want to highlight how ridiculous this is^. Boyer was elected CEO of the DIA on May 15, 2019. On May 24, 2019, the Times Union editorial board BEGGED the city to not tear The Landing down without first evaluating adaptive reuse opportunities. https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/editorials/2019/05/24/friday-editorial-dont-demolish-landing-before-examining-adaptive-reuse/5074357007/

Boyer then started her position in July 2019. This was right around the time that the last tenants at The Landing were closing up. The Landing demo did not start until October 2019. On January 14, 2020, Boyer rolled out the DIA’s Targeted Food and Beverage Program. So presumably that plan was being worked on well before The Landing demo. With cover from the TU Editorial on May 24, 2019, Boyer could have stepped up and implored the City and Mayor Curry to pause The Landing demo and evaluate adaptive re-use. Instead, she rolled over and started working on a fruitless Targeted Food and Beverage Program.

The Landing RFP was not issued until January 2021, a full 15 months after demolition and a year in a half after Boyer started at the DIA. It's easy sometimes to play armchair QB and claim that things should have been done differently in the past....BUT many of us here on this board were clamoring for this at the time.

The clear, obvious, and correct move for the City was to issue an RFP in 2019 that pondered three design concepts: 1. Keeping The Landing as is 2. Adapting and modifying the existing structure 3. Tearing down and completely redeveloping the property (essentially the 2021 RFP).

While that RFP was in process, the DIA could have been working to try to attract the tenants on the above list to see what it would take to get them there. It's actually something I had been posting on here about for years and that is the creation of a Best of Jax type food hall downtown (The Landing or elsewhere). Think about it. What would have been the easiest way to attract Safe Harbor, Cinnotti's, Picasso's, etc downtown? The offer of an existing building that already has grease traps, kitchens, and simply just needs an interior buildout. Rather than wasting incentive money on trying to lure restaurants to sites not restaurant ready, the City could have used the same incentives to offer favorable leases to all those desirable tenants. The City could have even had a revenue share built into the lease (something I also posted about back then). Essentially you offer low rent and then get a portion of revenue once the tenant hits a high sales number. This is obviously very appealing for tenants, as they only pay if they are successful.

Had the DIA done the above, the City would have made a much more informed decision about the long term fate of The Landing. If it had commitments from 5 restaurants on the above list, would the City have still torn it down? If the results of the study came back and said that it would cost more (and take longer) to redesign a new park with shell buildings than it would to create the same amenities with an adapted/modified Landing, would the City have still torn it down?

I know Boyer was late to the show and cannot come close to taking all the blame, but I do think she could have greatly changed the outcome if she had shaken things up. I bet an outsider wouldn't have been so afraid to ruffle a few feathers. Additionally, Boyer can take sole responsibility for the DIA not coming up with an interim plan to fill The Landing space with a temporary use. It's been 3.25 years since I posted that the DIA should look to do something like this until park construction is done. These concepts are so low frills that they could be shifted around on site during construction and it would have given poor Kenny a place other than Jimmy Johns to eat. 

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,37072.0.html




Captain Zissou

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2024, 10:16:28 AM »
If the city could show a record of being able to complete a park on time, I think that would do wonders for downtown development.  With a proven track record of opening parks on their projected completion date, the city could tie in outside development with their park projects.  If everyone believed that riverfront plaza would be finished in October of 2026, it would present a perfect opportunity to "get in early" on one of the surrounding properties and develop it so that your tenants/residents could benefit from the improved infrastructure.  Same with Hogan's creek, River's Edge, Metro Park, etc.... As it is, everyone expects these projects to languish for years beyond the initial estimated completion date.  There's no urgency for american lion's (financial issues aside) to complete their project because it will just sit next to a barren field for years. Similar to TOD, parks could be a driver for surrounding development, but nobody has faith that the projects will come to fruition.

thelakelander

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2024, 10:52:15 AM »
I don't think the DIA should be blamed for the Landing fiasco. Curry and Hughes were knocking that down hell or high water and the civic leaders in this town weren't standing in their way.
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CityLife

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2024, 11:31:15 AM »
I don't think the DIA should be blamed for the Landing fiasco. Curry and Hughes were knocking that down hell or high water and the civic leaders in this town weren't standing in their way.

The TU Editorial board stood up for it. Curry was on the ropes and getting a lot of flak about the demolition. In May 2019 (right around Boyer's hire), he pathetically posted on Twitter: “Self proclaimed pundits on Duval opining on our plan for the Landing either have a strategic play or are lazy twitter tough guys. I think it is the latter given what I’ve seen last 4 years.Keep fighting the lazy fight & waging war on social media.I’mma keep winning for the people.”

Boyer had enough political capital and connections to get local political and design leaders to help make a stand and pump the brakes on demolition. All it would have taken was a follow up article in the TU with local leaders supporting the decision to delay demo and Curry would have had no choice but stand down.

That is the purpose of hiring a well connected local right, is it not? To be able to pull the right strings when needed? Either she didn't understand that tearing The Landing down with no plan was a bad decision, or she did and failed to use her political capital to fight Curry. Either way, she is somewhat negligent imo (though Curry obviously takes the most blame). The bigger issue though is everything that happened post demolition. Like not releasing the RFP until 2021, the LERP/scoring fiasco, and most importantly not having a plan to temporarily activate the park until completion.

Tacachale

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2024, 02:05:55 PM »
I don't think the DIA should be blamed for the Landing fiasco. Curry and Hughes were knocking that down hell or high water and the civic leaders in this town weren't standing in their way.

This is accurate. People forget, the mayor and CAO are in charge of public works projects, not DIA, and that Hughes had been interim head of DIA before Boyer was hired. I also doubt there was any amount of public pushback that would have made a difference once that die was cast.

Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Ken_FSU

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2024, 02:54:22 PM »
I don't think the DIA should be blamed for the Landing fiasco.

Hughes had been interim head of DIA before Boyer was hired. I also doubt there was any amount of public pushback that would have made a difference once that die was cast.

To me, that die was cast way back in 2015, the second that Toney Sleiman flipped the script and offered his endorsement to Alvin Brown in the 2015 election.

Curry and Brian Hughes could never get over it, and vilified Sleiman as having offered his endorsement to Brown in exchange for the $12 million incentive package for the Landing.

And, to me, the Landing's fate was sealed when Curry took that secretive trip with Shad Khan, Mark Lamping, and Cordish to Baltimore, Kansas City, and St. Louis. After that, the race was on to make Sleiman's life miserable, screw with his permits, demolish the Landing, replace it with a non-competitive lawn, and build out Lot J as Landing 2.0 for the Jags.

Toss in the convenient fact that the $20 million payout to Toney Sleiman came right before the 2019 election season, and I don't think anything was stopping it.

The public couldn't have stopped it. The DIA couldn't have stopped it.

The only group that could have stopped it was City Council, we approved the buyout and demolition 15-1.

I take solace in the fact that the only sane person in the room that day is now our city's CFO (Anna Brosche).

CityLife

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2024, 04:10:59 PM »
I don't think the DIA should be blamed for the Landing fiasco.

Hughes had been interim head of DIA before Boyer was hired. I also doubt there was any amount of public pushback that would have made a difference once that die was cast.

The only group that could have stopped it was City Council, we approved the buyout and demolition 15-1.

I take solace in the fact that the only sane person in the room that day is now our city's CFO (Anna Brosche).

The City Council voted 15-1 to pay $15 million to Sleiman, $1.5 million to buy leases out, and set aside $1.5 million for future demolition. The demolition didn't occur until 7 months after the Council vote and 5 months after Boyer's appointment. Sure, the wheels were well in motion before Boyer's appointment, but I have seen strong leaders in local government step in many times and change the direction of an existing project. The reality is that Boyer thought it was a good idea. Just remembered that she was one of the 15 that voted for demo and here is her quote on it:

"That isn't where we are today. And it's not going to regain that stature by us wishing that it would," Councilwoman Lori Boyer said. "So it's time to move on to take the next step and replace it with, you know, Jacksonville's future as opposed to wishful thinking about Jacksonville's past."

https://www.news4jax.com/news/2019/03/27/city-council-oks-deal-paving-way-for-demolition-of-jacksonville-landing/

Like I said earlier, Curry and Co were much more responsible, but I do think a strong leader and an outsider may have been able to change the ultimate outcome. Especially since Boyer couldn't backtrack on something she already voted for....No point in debating or discussing my opinion on it though.

The only things currently worth debating is what has happened post demolition and what the long term solutions are. As we saw with the Friendship Fountain debacle, I don't think it does any harm to holds someone's feet to the fire. In fact, it's often the only way to get anything done in Jax.

thelakelander

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2024, 06:17:48 PM »
I basically washed my hands of the Landing site back when the "experts" in town kept ranting about future potential with multiple charrettes and dreams about this space being a magical unicorn that no other city could rival. I said it would set DT back a generation if we kicked out those businesses, waterfront restaurants and tore down a publicly financed urban retail complex. Unfortunately it did and the outcome was predictable because the process was the same nonsense that never worked with previous downtown revitalization gimmicks and the people making decisions had no real experience with any of the hot air that was being blown and promised back then.

Years have passed since then and those dreams remain fruitless, as predicted. At this point, just get the park built but be realistic about what it will be. It's not going to be transformational, take DT to the next level or bring more people to downtown than the Landing did on its worse days. Nevertheless, it shouldn't stay a vacant lot. Let's just get a space with some decent amenities up an running and move on to the next project.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2024, 04:11:14 PM by thelakelander »
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Jax_Developer

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Re: The DIA and Lori Boyer Are Doing a Phenomenal Job
« Reply #59 on: January 26, 2024, 02:36:02 PM »
I basically washed my hands of the Landing site back when the "experts" in town kept ranting about future potential with multiple charrettes and dreams about this space being a magical unicorn that no other city could rival. I said, it would set DT back a generation if we kicked out those businesses waterfront restaurants and tore down a publicly financed urban retail complex and it did. Unfortunately, the outcome was predictable because the process was the same nonsense that never worked with previous downtown revitalization gimmicks and the people making decisions had no real experience with any of the hot air that was being blown and promised back then.

Years have passed since they and those dreams remain fruitless, as predicted. At this point, just get the park built but be realistic about what it will be. It's not going to be transformational, take DT to the next level or bring more people to downtown than the Landing did on its worse days. Nevertheless, it shouldn't stay a vacant lot. Let's just get a space with some decent amenities up an running and move on to the next project.

Really couldn't agree more when you look at it as a whole. I've basically just accepted reality & hoping to act on what we can at this point. I think the rumblings of Gateway were somewhat there but I didn't realize the scope of it all. Realistically, our best bet is to revitalize the area surrounding Gateway towards Springfield & hope growth extends from that corridor. Especially if Gateway & the Mixed-Use project off 8th St can secure grocers for retail.