Author Topic: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval  (Read 18441 times)

thelakelander

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RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« on: October 06, 2023, 07:14:29 AM »
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Redevelopment plans for the former River City Brewing mixed-use site are coming back to the Downtown Development Review Board (DDRB) for Final Approval. Here is a look at the $92 million, 24-story project's conceptual plans. Let us know what you think.

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/rd-river-city-brewery-project-seeks-final-ddrb-approval/
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JPalmer

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2023, 09:01:46 AM »
Call me skeptical, but will hold out hope the tower is included in the final version.

Ken_FSU

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2023, 10:35:54 AM »
Can you build a 24-story 410-unit residential tower, 511-space garage, and restaurant for $92 million in 2023?

Will never complain about more residential in the downtown area, but I still think that if we're going to spend significant city money to incentive this project, we need to insist that the restaurant is integrated into Friendship Park, as originally planned, versus being isolated in the rear along the river. Having that restaurant practically within/as an extension of the park is key to helping Friendship Park realize its potential (and investment) as a destination space. As currently proposed, there's practically no integration between the park and the project. Doesn't feel like there's any spillover effect with the current design that would help bolster our adjacent investment next door.


jaxlongtimer

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2023, 11:14:01 AM »
A chain is as weak as its weakest link.  If the Riverwalk is going to be this narrow at some point, I have a problem, once again, with the setbacks for this project.



The design itself appears to be a great improvement over the original boxy proposal although other than the curve at the building top, there isn't much to this design to make it stand out.

By the way, has anyone seen the LED panels on the garage at the apartments being completed at Hendricks and I-95?  They really dress up that garage at night as you exit to Hendricks from the Acosta bridge.  Kudos to the developers for adding those.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 12:16:00 PM by jaxlongtimer »

marcuscnelson

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2023, 11:42:04 AM »
Can you build a 24-story 410-unit residential tower, 511-space garage, and restaurant for $92 million in 2023?

Will never complain about more residential in the downtown area, but I still think that if we're going to spend significant city money to incentive this project, we need to insist that the restaurant is integrated into Friendship Park, as originally planned, versus being isolated in the rear along the river. Having that restaurant practically within/as an extension of the park is key to helping Friendship Park realize its potential (and investment) as a destination space. As currently proposed, there's practically no integration between the park and the project. Doesn't feel like there's any spillover effect with the current design that would help bolster our adjacent investment next door.

It's weird, $92 million sounds like the same price tag as the original building with nearly 100 fewer apartments. If there's more building, where are they cheaping out in order to end up with the same price tag?

Also yes, the fact that the riverwalk becomes a cramped corridor and the restaurant is tucked behind a private area really comes off as awful design. I don't understand how we've made it most of the year and ended up with essentially the same concept as back in the spring. With how dead this project already appeared to be I'm not too concerned right now about telling them to just try again. Finish the park, perhaps separate the restaurant concept from the housing and start early planning for what's going to replace MOSH when that moves in a couple years. We can afford to do better here.
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Jax_Developer

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2023, 12:43:03 PM »
Jaxlongtimer, just in this context.. I think the narrow Riverwalk is okay. The issue being that FDOT & CSX own right-of-ways under the Acosta. I live nearby, and the connection from the Southerly to the other side, seems impossible. This is like a spur route, similar to what Baptist has now (because it leads to a dead end).

Can you build a 24-story 410-unit residential tower, 511-space garage, and restaurant for $92 million in 2023?

Will never complain about more residential in the downtown area, but I still think that if we're going to spend significant city money to incentive this project, we need to insist that the restaurant is integrated into Friendship Park, as originally planned, versus being isolated in the rear along the river. Having that restaurant practically within/as an extension of the park is key to helping Friendship Park realize its potential (and investment) as a destination space. As currently proposed, there's practically no integration between the park and the project. Doesn't feel like there's any spillover effect with the current design that would help bolster our adjacent investment next door.

It's weird, $92 million sounds like the same price tag as the original building with nearly 100 fewer apartments. If there's more building, where are they cheaping out in order to end up with the same price tag?

Also yes, the fact that the riverwalk becomes a cramped corridor and the restaurant is tucked behind a private area really comes off as awful design. I don't understand how we've made it most of the year and ended up with essentially the same concept as back in the spring. With how dead this project already appeared to be I'm not too concerned right now about telling them to just try again. Finish the park, perhaps separate the restaurant concept from the housing and start early planning for what's going to replace MOSH when that moves in a couple years. We can afford to do better here.

Call me skeptical too! The unit price is $225k ish. What a discount compared to the Trio.. lol.

Ken_FSU

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2023, 12:59:08 PM »
The unit price is $225k ish. What a discount compared to the Trio.. lol.

The Laura Street Trio by Cordish and Iguana.

 ;D

I get raked through the coals every time I say it, but having driven by each day during construction and seen the materials used and speed in which it went up, I still think there's got to be about $50 million buried under the Jags new $120 million practice facility somewhere.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 01:07:28 PM by Ken_FSU »

JPalmer

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2023, 01:25:08 PM »

By the way, has anyone seen the LED panels on the garage at the apartments being completed at Hendricks and I-95?  They really dress up that garage at night as you exit to Hendricks from the Acosta bridge.  Kudos to the developers for adding those.

Yeah, it looks pretty cool driving by.

Captain Zissou

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2023, 03:41:43 PM »
I get raked through the coals every time I say it, but having driven by each day during construction and seen the materials used and speed in which it went up, I still think there's got to be about $50 million buried under the Jags new $120 million practice facility somewhere.

I know you like to compare the MEC budget to that of the FIS headquarters.  Having been in both a few times, I can tell you that MEC is nicer than 90% of the FIS space.  The bulk of the FIS building is still a cube farm. I can also tell you the quoted $156M budget of FIS does not include FF&E or technology. It's just the building.

Ken_FSU

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2023, 04:28:49 PM »
I get raked through the coals every time I say it, but having driven by each day during construction and seen the materials used and speed in which it went up, I still think there's got to be about $50 million buried under the Jags new $120 million practice facility somewhere.

I know you like to compare the MEC budget to that of the FIS headquarters.  Having been in both a few times, I can tell you that MEC is nicer than 90% of the FIS space.  The bulk of the FIS building is still a cube farm. I can also tell you the quoted $156M budget of FIS does not include FF&E or technology. It's just the building.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm far from an expert on construction costs. There just seems to be a pattern with Jags projects over the years, both actualized and proposed, where it's tough to wrap my head around price tags that, to the untrained eye, seem higher than they should be.

I don't doubt it's beautiful, and comparisons are very admittedly apples to oranges, but $120 million is an astronomical amount of money. I see this guy and wonder, "Did really cost more than Vista Brooklyn and the Doro combined? Does it really cost more $40 million more than the 30-mile Emerald Trail project. Does it really cost more than building new parks at the Landing, Shipyards, Riversedge, and Times-Union center combined? More than what Related is proposing on the Southbank? $40 million more than Mosh 2.0?" $120 million is $45 million more than the BOFA Tower and Wells Fargo Towers have sold for in the last two years.



Even comparing it to what the University of Florida just built, in the same timeframe, down the road for $85 million, do we REALLY think it's a full $35 million more expensive?



Answer might be yes, like I said, hell if I truly know, but I like to keep a little healthy skepticism when the city goes halfsies with the Jags, and they manage and price out the project.

Let's not forget, these were the guys who told us that this was a half-billion project, with a mid-scale hotel priced at over $1 million per key for construction.


Steve

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2023, 09:47:56 AM »
$120 million is $45 million more than the BOFA Tower and Wells Fargo Towers have sold for in the last two years.

Keep in mind that the replacement cost for these buildings is WAY more than they sold for recently.

Lostwave

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2023, 10:15:40 AM »
Remember, the MEC price is fully furnished.
Desks, computers, state of the art draft room, team room and weight room.  All full, all brand new.  The technology and wiring cost alone is probably more than some smaller developments.  It truly is apples to oranges to compare this to any residential, and most any office development.


Captain Zissou

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2023, 11:20:04 AM »
There were too many incorrect assumptions to dispute, but now that a couple are out of the way I'll add in that the UF facility's budget only includes the building in the foreground as they had already spent $15M+ (in 2020 when everything was cheap because construction halted) on the indoor practice field and additional millions on the two outdoor fields.  The Jaguars built those all in the same project (along with a 2,000 seat grand stand featuring 2 concession stands, a retail store, and restrooms), which accounts for the budget increase.

Ken_FSU

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2023, 11:38:49 AM »
There were too many incorrect assumptions to dispute, but now that a couple are out of the way I'll add in that the UF facility's budget only includes the building in the foreground as they had already spent $15M+ (in 2020 when everything was cheap because construction halted) on the indoor practice field and additional millions on the two outdoor fields.  The Jaguars built those all in the same project (along with a 2,000 seat grand stand featuring 2 concession stands, a retail store, and restrooms), which accounts for the budget increase.

Remember, the MEC price is fully furnished.
Desks, computers, state of the art draft room, team room and weight room.  All full, all brand new.  The technology and wiring cost alone is probably more than some smaller developments.  It truly is apples to oranges to compare this to any residential, and most any office development.

Keep in mind that the replacement cost for these buildings is WAY more than they sold for recently.

Good additional context to put the price tag into perspective, thanks fellas!

I've trusted all three of your opinions for years, so if you think the price tag is legit, I suppose I'll take off my tin foil hat until the next one.

As a guy who fully supports the city subsidizing a new stadium, and fully supported the scoreboard and Daily's Place projects, I do think the MEL is the hardest to justify from a public perspective. The stadium is a municipal facility. Daily's Place is a public concert venue filling a gap that's existed for decades. But to your point above, what reason would the City of Jacksonville have to own an NFL training facility, with draft rooms, state of the art equipment, practice fields, etc? More than any of the other projects, this feels like a private facility, for the Jaguars, with very little reason to otherwise exist for the general public. Can't wrap my head around the justification for $60 million in public dollars for a largely private facility.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 11:40:59 AM by Ken_FSU »

Captain Zissou

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Re: RD River City Brewery project seeks final DDRB approval
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2023, 12:51:14 PM »
Think of it more as the first installment in the subsidizing of the new stadium. No matter where the team plays while the stadium is under construction, the team will need somewhere to practice since their current home will be a job-site for a few years.  This facility not only keeps the team in Jacksonville for the duration of construction, but it keeps them downtown for the long run. 

I see your point that the other assets are more public facing or the jags are just one of many tenants, but far more people were able to attend training camp this year and the facility will create more public interaction going forward.