Author Topic: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed  (Read 16931 times)

jaxoNOLE

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2023, 10:51:48 PM »
The maintenance of green space is a big concern of mine. JTA improved sidewalks along Jefferson,  Broad, Bay, Forsyth, etc. about a decade ago and all of those corridors look pretty shabby now. There are weeds growing in the sidewalk cracks, snappy looking grass, etc. If we can't maintain and landscape our sidewalks on gateway corridors into downtown, I really wonder about out ability to landscape and maintain our parks.

This is true city-wide. Road projects costing tens to hundreds of millions are completed, landscaping put in...and in 3 months it's all completely overgrown. What a difference merely mowing and weed spraying can make in the perception of an area.

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2023, 11:53:23 PM »
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/
I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

I am with you, Heights.  I recently was in Sarasota and was blown away by their skyline and waterfront.  And, the nonprofit "park", Selby Gardens.  I note that all the high rises are well back from the waterfront and separated by US 41 and more, giving a really nice panoramic view of the area.  Almost all their waterfront seemed to be public access. 

To add, even "exclusive" locations like Long Boat Key and Anna Marie Island had long and frequent street-end public accesses to the beaches in the midst of highly developed areas, unlike our beaches.

I am not with others on this thread. I think parks and greenspace are critical components to promoting development.  People today cannot easily connect with the outdoors.  It is a long commute to reach out beyond the suburbs for an opportunity to commune with nature, which is proven to be good for mental health.  Not to mention exercise for your physical health.  Downtown dwellers will greatly value large greenspaces for walking, jogging, bicycling, dog walking, game playing, meditating, accessing the waterfront and more.  Every major city and more that I have visited provides this.

The American Lions Tower, to me, is a nice building but in the wrong spot.  It looks crammed into that spot and would be jarring to look at, IMHO.  And, in support of my above comment, I don't want to see something like that on publicly owned riverfront land.  Build it back one block and it will do fine.  As such, not unhappy they can't move forward presently.

Watching One Riverside rise, as I expressed previously, looks way too close to the river for its height and size.  This should not be repeated with other developments.

heights unknown

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2023, 12:06:52 PM »
Do we have an actual real estimate for the Landing park now?

I forget what the exact number is, but it's around $50 million, give or take. What's budgeted now pays for about half of it (the west half)

For comparisons sake....

https://www.yourobserver.com/news/2023/may/10/funding-secured-the-bay-embarks-on-planning-parks-next-phase/
I'm from Sarasota, went to Junior High and High School there, joined the Navy from there and made it a career, and moved back there in 2004 and lived there until March of 2021. I now am back in North Florida living on 4 acres in Suwannee Valley in Suwannee County. I know all of that area well. Used to fish there and play there when I was a kid, and performed in plays in the purple building in the rendering which is Van Wezel Performing Arts Hall, constructed in 1969 I believe, the same year me and my Parents moved to Sarasota. No comparison. Especially within the last 30 years. I just visited Sarasota twice in the last week and it is totally unrecognizable; money, money, money, you can see it in everything around that City. I started my Agency in 2004, a Social Service Agency I still run. I started the Agency from that Park in the rendering, my first clients, displaced, homeless, etc., were from that area and that Park. So much for the destitute and the vagrants as some call them (disrespectful) who hung out and camped in this Park for decades; where will they go. Sarasota is now a town of about 70,000 people (in the incorporated area), but  there's lots of unincorporated areas around Sarasota and I would guess realistically Sarasota is a City of about 100,000 people now. The skyline, though graced with many 100 to 170 foot skyscrapers, believe it or not, IMO, puts Jax to shame; and don't even get me started on density and "things to do" downtown. Comparing Jax and Sarasota is like comparing a shiny, juicy red delicious apply to a withered, wrinkled dried up prune. There's no comparison. It's obvious the City Leaders in "Sara" gets the job done unlike in our City Jax. Yes, money talks, and bulls**t walks, so true; but, you've got to correctly manage and make do with what you've got, and Jax just doesn't seem to know how to do that. This massive park they're building and renovating on the Bayfront, once it's done, will be something to enjoy and behold, this I can tell. 10 years? I'm 67 now, so I might not be around to see it; you guys might. I'm holding up good, maybe I will. I just wish, and pray that Jax would get it together. I'm rooting for Jax so hard, and have been since my youth when I grew up here. But it seems to be the same old same old; nothing gets done. Renderings, renderings, renderings and nothing gets built. Proposals out the "ying yang," but they never leave the paper or plans and materialize into fruition. Well, I'm tired of waiting. While Jax yawns and sleeps, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, Sarasota, Fort Lauderdale, St. Petersburg, and even Tallahassee and Gainesville (and other smaller cities), are leaving Jax in the dust. I guess I'll just go along with the fact that Jax will always, even after I am gone, not ever be the City that it could be or wants and yearns to be. I love Jax. Always will. Had fun times here in my youth after joining the Navy. Fun times. I hope something happens before I leave this Earth and report to Beulah Land. That's all. That's enough now.

I am with you, Heights.  I recently was in Sarasota and was blown away by their skyline and waterfront.  And, the nonprofit "park", Selby Gardens.  I note that all the high rises are well back from the waterfront and separated by US 41 and more, giving a really nice panoramic view of the area.  Almost all their waterfront seemed to be public access. 

To add, even "exclusive" locations like Long Boat Key and Anna Marie Island had long and frequent street-end public accesses to the beaches in the midst of highly developed areas, unlike our beaches.

I am not with others on this thread. I think parks and greenspace are critical components to promoting development.  People today cannot easily connect with the outdoors.  It is a long commute to reach out beyond the suburbs for an opportunity to commune with nature, which is proven to be good for mental health.  Not to mention exercise for your physical health.  Downtown dwellers will greatly value large greenspaces for walking, jogging, bicycling, dog walking, game playing, meditating, accessing the waterfront and more.  Every major city and more that I have visited provides this.

The American Lions Tower, to me, is a nice building but in the wrong spot.  It looks crammed into that spot and would be jarring to look at, IMHO.  And, in support of my above comment, I don't want to see something like that on publicly owned riverfront land.  Build it back one block and it will do fine.  As such, not unhappy they can't move forward presently.

Watching One Riverside rise, as I expressed previously, looks way too close to the river for its height and size.  This should not be repeated with other developments.
Yes "Jax," I agree; I am a skyscraper fan; but when you're dealing with urbanesque on the water, they should be pushed back at least a thousand feet from the water (IMHO). I for one hope some way, some how the American Lions building gets built, but I agree also, not in that spot. There's lots of other places, a thousand feet or so from the River where it could go. One block/parcel, whatever that comes to mind is that empty lot, now used as a parking lot, next to the Mariott (Omni) and the Enterprise Center (IMO) and my recommendation; it would go good there complementing the Bank of America. They might have to scale the base down from the flaring out, and maybe even make it taller, but that would be an excellent spot in my opinion. Regarding Sarasota, it is jaw dropping and chain pulling what has happened to that place. We moved there in 1969 and it was a sleepy, quiet city of about 30,000, with an extremely "small town feel" outside of winter, with one or two 120 foot scrapers; now it fries the brain to see at least 30 or so 100 to 200 feet mid rise scrapers with packed in your gahunna density and 24/7 things to do, buzz, outside cafes, and entertainment and shopping going on downtown, even on saturdays (and sundays shame on them). But, what can Jax do? There's nothing really I can say or recommend for Jax.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2023, 01:01:03 PM »
^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.  And, to think we also have the taxpayers contributing to these ugly projects. 

And, virtually no setback from the side property lines to allow for a substantive vegetative buffer.

To add, I wonder if the City factors in airflows created by these structures.  A strong south wind hitting the face of this structure could have some impacts on the riverwalk in front.  Next door, Haskell at least had the good sense to terrace their building back from the riverfront. Maybe they know something about better design.  Hello?!... Shouldn't the City take a lesson from that?

« Last Edit: September 30, 2023, 01:07:05 PM by jaxlongtimer »

heights unknown

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2023, 01:14:22 PM »
^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.  And, to think we also have the taxpayers contributing to these ugly projects. 

And, virtually no setback from the side property lines to allow for a substantive vegetative buffer.

To add, I wonder if the City factors in airflows created by these structures.  A strong south wind hitting the face of this structure could have some impacts on the riverwalk in front.  Next door, Haskell at least had the good sense to terrace their building back from the riverfront. Maybe they know something about better design.  Hello?!... Shouldn't the City take a lesson from that?


Yes they should learn a lesson from that.......but they won't take notice or listen.

On the other hand...no answer for me right now LOL. We'll see what doesn't happen next for downtown.
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fsu813

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2023, 03:43:14 PM »
^ Heights, glad to have your agreement  8).

This picture below says it all.  The wood-stick construction is much higher since it was taken, topping out at the top of the garage and stairwells.  You can see just how close the building is to the water.  30 or 40 foot setbacks, as I am guessing, at most, from the picture, are nothing in this scale of construction.  Just a shame this City prostitutes' itself to the whims of every developer that drops by.

Eloquently said. Larger setbacks from the river are something Riverfront Parks Now + Scenic Jacksonville has pushed for continuously with little buy in from COJ or your average developer leadership. It's extremely frustrating to visit other cities that do have higher standards for themselves and see the results. Le sigh.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2023, 06:10:09 PM by fsu813 »

acme54321

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2023, 05:01:17 PM »
That thing is like a wall now on the Riverwalk.  Might turn out cool, might not.

thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2023, 06:38:11 PM »
I walked by it earlier today. I'd like to see what the feel is when the restaurant and outdoor cafe-style seating are in place.
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Skybox111

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2023, 01:16:13 AM »
Don’t see much of a problem with it being close. Miami towers all right up to waterfront and doesn’t really bother many and its still successful with many hotels and restaurants right there with many people walking and jogging plus many don’t look at the buildings next to them some do to look up at a tall tower for a wow but majority look at other the other side to see things like anyone walking by our huge wide river will look at the other side of the river at the skyline. A great view from both sides.  With a wide river a tower wouldn’t be close to the other side because its far away. Looking from the Southbank in different areas the distance to the northbank can be 1500 to 2000 ft across.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 01:18:52 AM by Skybox111 »

Jax_Developer

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2023, 09:17:07 AM »
Don’t see much of a problem with it being close. Miami towers all right up to waterfront and doesn’t really bother many and its still successful with many hotels and restaurants right there with many people walking and jogging plus many don’t look at the buildings next to them some do to look up at a tall tower for a wow but majority look at other the other side to see things like anyone walking by our huge wide river will look at the other side of the river at the skyline. A great view from both sides.  With a wide river a tower wouldn’t be close to the other side because its far away. Looking from the Southbank in different areas the distance to the northbank can be 1500 to 2000 ft across.

100% agree.. I really don't understand the narrative around the river setbacks being such a necessity. Building close to the water can be done right as well. If we had more demand DT for dining & entertainment, the proximity of structures to the river can be done in a way that would make the riverfront parks look like a mistake. This is also DT land we are talking about, and the idea of implementing mandatory green space setbacks from the river is a little silly to me. Don't we want our DT land to be dense? Why not allow developers to be creative with the green space requirements... after all... if people are doing their jobs right, a plan with a poor green space detail shouldn't be passed.

We have a chicken & egg predicament... we want developers to go above & beyond the minimum requirements, but we also reduce the economic potential of these same sites. There has to be another, less rigid, solution.

https://floridayimby.com/2023/01/site-plans-filed-for-33-acre-mixed-use-waterfront-development-ybor-harbor-in-tampa.html

Using creative means to create connected green space.

Skybox111

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2023, 12:53:11 PM »
Nows that something i would love to see here shame shipyards couldn’t be implemented to that degree instead of all park have residential office hotels and restaurants integrated with it.

edjax

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2023, 03:59:23 PM »
Just saw an article in the Daily Record that Cinco de Mayo which was at the Landing will be opening in the old Olio space by year end.

thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2023, 04:12:44 PM »
That quote about being kicked out of Landing is horrible. So glad, the people behind that type of foolishness are out of city hall. Kudos to this business for overcoming a business killing situation to take another chance on downtown. It's the small businesses like this that should be getting incentives or help for being forced to close over local petty politics.
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Steve

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2023, 05:29:25 PM »
This is a nice get for Downtown actually. Inexpensive Mexican right by a large hotel and open dinner hours? Perfect.

And yes, let's kick a business out of the Landing so Curry can play God. Super terrific idea there.

thelakelander

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Re: Downtown Development Update: What's rising, what's delayed
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2023, 05:36:10 PM »
^It's a perfect fit for East Bay Street. I wish they would have been open over the last month. Attended two 1,000 person conferences at the Hyatt and people were looking for food options around the hotel.
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