Author Topic: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement  (Read 46366 times)

Ken_FSU

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #150 on: December 20, 2023, 12:17:21 AM »
I've been saying this for years, but I finally put some math to it. 
  • A basic Tesla 3 costs $38,000.  If you purchased 50 of them you'd probably get a discount, but we'll just stick with the base price.  Total cost, $1.9M
  • For now you can hire 100 drivers to assist with operation of the cars throughout the week.  As automation improves, drivers are gone. Total Cost, $4.5M
  • Hire 8 managers at a cost of $110k. Generous, but JTA loves those high salaried employees. Total cost, $880k
  • Hire 8 back office support staff with salaries averaging $75k. Total cost, $600k
  • Hire a team of 4 mechanics with $60k salaries. Teslas don't even really need mechanics, but just in case. Total cost, $240k
  • Hire a VP of the automation division and pay them a cush salary of $200k because why not?
  • Hire 2 software coders to help with updates to the cars.  Pay them each $90k.  I don't think they'd be needed, but just in case. Total cost, $180k
  • Finally, build a $5M facility for parking cars while not in use, repairs, back office facilities, and driver break rooms, training rooms, etc.

This can all be implemented for $5M in start up costs and annual labor costs of $6.4M.  You could move over 1,000 people an hour (this is almost as much as all of JTA moves throughout the day based on the News4Jax piece.  Apparently ridership is 20k a day). Add in 10 of the forthcoming tesla delivery vans for hauling people with large packages... add bike racks to all cars... cross train drivers to handle the vans.... $3M for a washing facility... Quadruple the budget and it still makes so much more sense than U2C.

Edit: This could be scaled up to replace JTA entirely, but for now it's just U2C.  Factor in tax breaks for an all electric fleet and baby, we've got a stew going.

Had similar thoughts a few months back, but with buses instead of Teslas.

Different concept, but 1,000% same conclusion:

It is categorically INSANE that anyone finds a $500 million+, low-capacity, low-speed, pie-in-the-sky "transit network" to be a cost-efficient way of moving riders.

It's the transit equivalent of the guy at the college party who drops acid and then rambles incoherently about his plan to solve the conflict in the Middle East.

Some real Beautiful Mind bullshit.

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Second, has JTA ever claimed the U2C - either small AVs or driven vans - operate for special events in the Sports Complex? Is there any credibility there?

JTA's claims aside, the very idea seems to stretch credibility.

Using what we know about the system, and what we know about the existing technology, I think it's safe to assume that the Bay Street Corridor will employ:

- Approximately 10 AV clown cars
- With a capacity of approximately 10 clowns/car
- Going a max speed in mixed traffic of 10 mph

We also know that the loop is 3.2 miles long.

Which means that, with stops for loading and unloading, the U2C will probably average around 2 full loops per hour.

By my math, that gives the U2C as planned the ability to transport a scant 200 riders per hour, in a sports district that routinely hosts crowds of 65,000+.

By contrast, four standard JTA buses (65 capacity with standing room) doing the same loop at 30 mph, would probably average around 6 full loops per hour.

So, in the amount of time that it would take a fleet of clown cars to transport 200 people, four basic JTA buses could transport 1,560 passengers.

By my back of the napkin math, that's 680% more passengers moved per hour with four buses than with 10 clown cars.

If JTA were to run a SINGLE bus on the same 3.2 loop on gameday, it would take less than 20 minutes to fully move more passengers than an entire fleet of clown cars.

And that doesn't even account for the fact that the average bus costs around $500k, versus a network of clown cars tapped to cost literally one thousand times more ($500m+).

The very IDEA that this goofy system of microbuses classifies as "mass transportation" worthy of mass-transportation-like investment is utterly harebrained and delusional.

This system as designed couldn't even efficiently move attendees of a mid-sized conference at the Hyatt to the Sports District.

Everyone involved needs to be fired, and possibly institutionalized.

thelakelander

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #151 on: December 20, 2023, 08:15:37 AM »
It's no longer about cost efficiency. That was an early selling point until it was proven beyond a doubt to be an inaccurate assumption. Now the sales pitch has shifted to being innovative and the first to achieve something most people could give two craps about, regardless of expense and benefits to transit users. The majority of people know it doesn't make sense. Its just a matter of time when you what, will hit the fan.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 08:17:08 AM by thelakelander »
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #152 on: December 22, 2023, 12:03:36 AM »
For the record, Tesla this past week recalled nearly every Tesla on the road over its glitches with being autonomous.  But, JTA has it all figured out.  Elon needs to give them a call.  Meanwhile, the JTA board "fiddles while Rome burns."

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Tesla Recalls 2 Million Vehicles Over Autopilot Issue. Here's What You Need to Know
The most significant recall in company history affects almost every Tesla produced since 2012.

....Over many years, cars have been gaining features that automate certain driver tasks, from cruise control to lane correction and automatic emergency braking. Futurists, including Tesla chief Elon Musk, have long envisioned cars that are fully self-driving. But despite notable proofs of concept -- in early pilot projects and more-recent limited-use cases -- the challenge is a complex one with many hard issues still to be resolved. Tesla's Autopilot feature falls short of being fully autonomous....

....That's nearly all the cars Tesla has sold in the US, according to The Washington Post....

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-recalls-2-million-vehicles-over-autopilot-issue-heres-what-you-need-to-know/
« Last Edit: December 22, 2023, 12:35:49 AM by jaxlongtimer »

marcuscnelson

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #153 on: December 22, 2023, 12:29:33 AM »
Tesla's suffering from recalls, Cruise has basically been vaporized, it turns out Beep pulled its shuttle from Orlando after the crash in August, and Waymo cars are trying to cut each other off.

The Bay Street Innovation Corridor is supposed to open in eighteen months.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #154 on: December 22, 2023, 06:28:02 AM »
Some more info and pictures of the Orlando incident here. It didn't take long. I wonder why no mention of this locally?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12443601/Moment-Orlandos-self-driving-shuttle-bus-CRASHES-just-two-days-launch.html
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thelakelander

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"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

marcuscnelson

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #156 on: December 22, 2023, 09:54:22 PM »
Some more info and pictures of the Orlando incident here. It didn't take long. I wonder why no mention of this locally?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12443601/Moment-Orlandos-self-driving-shuttle-bus-CRASHES-just-two-days-launch.html

I think a lot of local media don't know that JTA is working with Beep, so if they're not looking for this stuff they're just not going to be aware of the connection.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #157 on: December 22, 2023, 10:32:48 PM »
I'm just surprised there's not much of a look into AVs outside of what JTA says. The local transit agency has proposed something that we can Google to see what other cities have done. There is nothing being tested locally that hasn't been tried elsewhere. Hoping more instigative reporting is coming in the near future.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

marcuscnelson

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #158 on: December 22, 2023, 11:27:43 PM »
There is a strange degree of local deference as to the technical validity of the project. This weird general assumption that if the agency is pushing for it then it must work. I guess because surely the transit agency would not propose transit that doesn't work? Why would they lie?

Nationally I think the issue is just Jacksonville not being a big transit city where one would pay attention to this stuff. Something like 2% of the city rides transit every day, how much is that worth covering compared to the NY MTA or a similarly large agency?
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #159 on: December 23, 2023, 06:46:02 AM »
Their track record is pretty bad (aka..the Skyway implementation). All the wolf ticket selling and hot air blowing locally isn't going to make a technology work that isn't working as promised internationally. However, for most, we have larger fish to fry. Eventually, the plug will get pulled on some of the nonsense as there's enough rope to where they will hang themselves with the first phase of the U2C. I think we're seeing the same thing playing out with the Trio right now and the pushback against the current financing proposal.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2023, 06:48:31 AM by thelakelander »
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Todd_Parker

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #160 on: December 24, 2023, 07:50:31 PM »

The Bay Street Innovation Corridor is supposed to open in eighteen months.

So that means seventeen months until Nat Ford announces that he's leaving JTA for a similar position elsewhere.

Captain Zissou

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #161 on: December 26, 2023, 09:38:42 AM »
There is a strange degree of local deference as to the technical validity of the project. This weird general assumption that if the agency is pushing for it then it must work. I guess because surely the transit agency would not propose transit that doesn't work? Why would they lie?

Nationally I think the issue is just Jacksonville not being a big transit city where one would pay attention to this stuff. Something like 2% of the city rides transit every day, how much is that worth covering compared to the NY MTA or a similarly large agency?

The downtown agencies and supporters would never criticize something that is "pushing downtown forward".  There's a weird echo chamber where everyone presents every project as awesome, regardless of its actual merits. COJ, DIA, DVI, JTA, BUD, Jessie Ball Dupont Fund....etc.  Nobody presents a contrasting viewpoint to anything for fear of being seen as anti-progress.  Somebody from DIA should have chained themselves to the bulldozers at the Landing and somebody should oppose the "moving the jail will fix everything" rhetoric that's going around now.

tufsu1

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #162 on: December 26, 2023, 12:37:23 PM »
^ agreed - there have been /are definitely some proposed projects downtown that would / will not help the overall value proposition of the area.

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #163 on: December 26, 2023, 04:37:01 PM »
^ Doesn't help that many our the "boards" are stacked with financial and legal minds, not people living in the real world.  Many also come from the major chamber companies which often have executives that are not born and raised in Jax but moved here from somewhere else, often not that many years ago, so they have don't have the same investment in the long term consequences of their actions.

It would be interesting to poll how many "board" and "commission" members were raised in Jax.

Charles Hunter

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Re: Time to cut bait on JTA's driverless Skyway replacement
« Reply #164 on: January 11, 2024, 08:25:04 PM »
I'm sure JTA staff were instrumental in developing this tech, right?

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Engineers have turned an otherwise unnoteworthy stretch of road in downtown Detroit into what's being hailed as the first wireless-charging public road in the United States.

Massive copper coils, much like the scaled-down ones inside your wireless phone charger, are hidden beneath the surface to charge EVs while they're stationary, idling, or even driving.

In a demonstration, a modified Ford E-Transit van that was outfitted with special receivers got as much as 19 kilowatts of power while driving down the road, albeit for only a short time.

But while the technology, developed by Israel-based wireless charging company Electreon, has already been shown to work, we're likely still many years out before it can be implemented at a much larger scale, especially considering the significant inefficiencies and costs involved.

...

Instead of converting stretches of highway, Electreon is focusing on wirelessly charging stationary vehicles at bus stops or city intersections since the prolonged proximity between coil and receiver makes the process more efficient.

https://futurism.com/the-byte/new-street-charges-electric-vehicles-drive