The Downtown Investment Authority's Future

[jaxlongtimer]

Potentially some big changes coming for incentive programs…

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jul/14/dia-considering-new-revised-incentives-to-complement-deegans-small-business-push/

At the max of $250,000, DIA could support 40 small businesses that would likely do more to revitalize Downtown than one $10 million hotel or apartment building.  And, all your eggs are not in one basket, if a project fails. 

Deegan was right to call this out... big businesses getting big breaks vs. not-so-much for smaller ones.  Refreshing.

[simms3]

Enjoyed reading your thoughts.  Some of my own just to add to yours...

Goal #1 is having downtown as the epicenter for business in the region, but that seems at odds with the permissive view towards office development in further-flung areas like Town Center, the Southside, and even as far as Nocatee (within Duval County).

We should be able to have both.  Right now suburbs in general are outperforming urban cores all around the country, but that's not why we should be able to have both.  We should be able to have both because they are complementary and every other successful city has both a thriving downtown and thriving/large suburban business districts.

For various reasons often brought up here on MJ, Jacksonville's office market has really just been in the pits all over the place since the 1990s.  We had gleaming office headquarters buildings constructed downtown AND large high quality office buildings constructed in the suburbs in the late 80s/1990s.  Since the late 90s it's been an impossible challenge to get either.  Both Austin, TX and Nashville, TN have office high rises underway in both the urban core and various suburban office/high density clusters.  (to name a couple of examples)

We just have a dismal office market, and it's actually a mystery why there is no demand even with all of the people moving here.

It's a little disappointing, even if understandable, that only about 5 streets are planned to be made two-way, with the remainder to stay for "thru traffic to bridges and I-95". While it does create a new "box" of street grid in City Center, it also walls off LaVilla and Cathedral Hill.

Interesting thought!

Brooklyn's rendering probably is the closest to showing things really happening, although the two buildings on either side of Park St in the foreground don't seem to exist even on paper. I'm somewhat suspect of the concept of Park as a sharrow, unless they're really going to be okay with slowing vehicles down, not to mention that it's probably not good for Bus Rapid Transit to be stuck in a sharrow.

Is Park St supposed to have a BRT route?  I agree, that doesn't make sense according to the Emerald Trail/sharrow plans shown in the rendering.  Riverside Ave just one block over is not a bad street for heavier rapid transit use.

This feels… empty, somehow. Less lively than most of the previous renderings. The parks and marina are fine, but obviously it's been nearly a decade now and we're still mostly watching dirt move around.

Master-planned urban infill developments that are entirely new construction often do feel less lively and more contrived than their older yet lower density counterparts.  There are parts of Manhattan, San Francisco, Chicago etc that are filled with newer towers yet feel less lively than other parts.  This is by design...

Still, there is progress being made on Rivers Edge and we will see Toll and maybe another group working on their sites within it soon enough.  That project is happening, for real for real.

Interesting to finally see the convention center idea in some form. Basically zero detail in it, but more than literally nothing. Personally I think that if Khan wasn't willing to build a tower for the Four Seasons we're not going to get one here, but I've talked about Lori Boyer's idea of how this would all play out before so I guess this supports that. Of course the Hyatt's parcel is juuuust out of frame so we can't see what happens with that here. The park looks nice but forgive me for doubting that it'll actually come out like that given the hard time we've had with all the other parks.

Convention Center is now being pushed for the jail site.

Regarding high rise - it WILL happen, just a matter of when.  Once Four Seasons starts selling units and some publicity goes with that, then there will be some market momentum and developers from around the state will take note.  Captain Zissou can speak to what they want for those condos, but the numbers I've heard (on a per square foot) would easily get a high rise deal done with enough units (more than the 24/25 that Four Seasons is doing).

[marcuscnelson]

Goal #1 is having downtown as the epicenter for business in the region, but that seems at odds with the permissive view towards office development in further-flung areas like Town Center, the Southside, and even as far as Nocatee (within Duval County).

We should be able to have both.  Right now suburbs in general are outperforming urban cores all around the country, but that's not why we should be able to have both.  We should be able to have both because they are complementary and every other successful city has both a thriving downtown and thriving/large suburban business districts.

For various reasons often brought up here on MJ, Jacksonville's office market has really just been in the pits all over the place since the 1990s.  We had gleaming office headquarters buildings constructed downtown AND large high quality office buildings constructed in the suburbs in the late 80s/1990s.  Since the late 90s it's been an impossible challenge to get either.  Both Austin, TX and Nashville, TN have office high rises underway in both the urban core and various suburban office/high density clusters.  (to name a couple of examples)

We just have a dismal office market, and it's actually a mystery why there is no demand even with all of the people moving here.

I mean there are still a number of office buildings being constructed in the suburbs. Town Center has been an epicenter of office development lately, including the buildings D&B and Sofi are now in. Nocatee has seen new construction, plus the new PGA Tour building in Ponte Vedra. Perhaps that pace is lower than one might hope for but it's still extant.

Is Park St supposed to have a BRT route?  I agree, that doesn't make sense according to the Emerald Trail/sharrow plans shown in the rendering.  Riverside Ave just one block over is not a bad street for heavier rapid transit use.

Yes, the First Coast Flyer Orange Line (as well as the Route 31 local bus) uses Park Street from the JRTC to FSCJ Kent Campus.

Regarding high rise - it WILL happen, just a matter of when.  Once Four Seasons starts selling units and some publicity goes with that, then there will be some market momentum and developers from around the state will take note.  Captain Zissou can speak to what they want for those condos, but the numbers I've heard (on a per square foot) would easily get a high rise deal done with enough units (more than the 24/25 that Four Seasons is doing).

Here's to hoping. There's plenty of land to do that with.

[thelakelander]

The mystery for downtown's office market struggling since the 1990s is consolidation in the banking and insurance industries. In the 1980s, our skyline was larger than our size. However, we lost all those companies that built all those towers for their corporate headquarters. No more Barnett, Florida National, Charter, Gulf Life, Independent Life, American Heritage, etc. Our loss has been Uptown Charlotte's gain. We still have some backfilling to do.

[jaxlongtimer]

Regarding high rise - it WILL happen, just a matter of when.  Once Four Seasons starts selling units and some publicity goes with that, then there will be some market momentum and developers from around the state will take note.  Captain Zissou can speak to what they want for those condos, but the numbers I've heard (on a per square foot) would easily get a high rise deal done with enough units (more than the 24/25 that Four Seasons is doing).

Here's to hoping. There's plenty of land to do that with.

I think the question for the Four Seasons condos will also be who is buying them.  If it is mostly friends of Shad (e.g. Jags and AEW officials and players), I don't think that will make for much market "momentum."  That is a stacked deck.

[Jax_Developer]

Regarding high rise - it WILL happen, just a matter of when.  Once Four Seasons starts selling units and some publicity goes with that, then there will be some market momentum and developers from around the state will take note.  Captain Zissou can speak to what they want for those condos, but the numbers I've heard (on a per square foot) would easily get a high rise deal done with enough units (more than the 24/25 that Four Seasons is doing).

Here's to hoping. There's plenty of land to do that with.

I think the question for the Four Seasons condos will also be who is buying them.  If it is mostly friends of Shad (e.g. Jags and AEW officials and players), I don't think that will make for much market "momentum."  That is a stacked deck.

Agreed. I don't think it will raise the price floor at all. You have the Berkman right down the road too contributing to the area pricing as well. If I remember correctly, one of the condos is reportedly selling for $15/$16M.. that will legitimately not happen again for another 20-30 years or more. That is on par with the highest selling SFH's, on the ocean, in PV.

If anything what this will do is price cap any future condo products.... I'm sure the 2/3 bedroom units will be extravagant, and hard to one-up for a future developer. Either-way, it's not like much of riverfront is developable. This is a blue chip site for DT.

[Ken_FSU]

Man is Laura Street every bleak lately.

Walked from JWJ Park to the old Landing site this morning.

You walk from a fenced-off James Weldon Johnson Park.

Past a boarded up Snyder Memorial.

Beside a gross old empty billboard and gutted/boarded up Chamblins apartment building.

Past a boarded up Jacobs Jewelers.

Beside the Laura Street Trio that looks like it was hit by a bomb.

Down to Lenny's lawn, where construction is beginning.

Had a crazy gentleman at the corner of Duval and Laura shout in my face that I was going to burn in hell.

Crazy gentleman in front of Jimmy Johns barking at clouds.

Woman sleeping on the street in front of Snyder with her hand inside of a Honey Smacks box.

Literally almost no non-homeless person out and about on the sidewalks.

Five years ago, things felt so much different. Barnett was under construction. Friends of Hemming Park were planning a $100k stage and Black Sheep container restaurant. Snyder was being RFP'd. Aundra Wallace and Southeast had signed a deal for the Trio. Hyatt Place was planning a hotel across from an active Jacksonville Landing. There was talk of a Hotel Indigo opening with a rooftop bar. And there was just so much more life on the streets.

[Steve]

Yikes. I mean you bring up a lot of fair points.

Of the projects above the only one that I was okay that got cancelled was Indigo, which was dumped because VyStar bought the building as part of their headquarters and in my eyes has done a good job with it.

The Lynchpin for the whole street is the Laura Trio, and every time I hear news about this one I feel less confident this happens.

[Ken_FSU]

Yikes. I mean you bring up a lot of fair points.

Of the projects above the only one that I was okay that got cancelled was Indigo, which was dumped because VyStar bought the building as part of their headquarters and in my eyes has done a good job with it.

The Lynchpin for the whole street is the Laura Trio, and every time I hear news about this one I feel less confident this happens.

To me, Laura Street is probably the most important street in the entire northbank core when it comes to redevelopment. And there's just so much obvious, low-hanging fruit. Even beyond the Trio, you're telling me that, in the last ten years, the DIA couldn't find an interested buyer to reactivate Snyder Memorial? In ten years, we couldn't find a way to open up the Main Street Library's retail bays to the sidewalk? As Wells Fargo and Bank of America make plans to re-do their lobbies, we can't actively engage them in discussions about opening their retail to the sidewalks? Feels like a vibrant Laura Street would create a lot of positive spillover onto adjacent streets, but it just doesn't seem like a central focus at all. 

[jaxlongtimer]

^ DIA has no coordinated, viable and detailed plan or vision so Downtown is rudderless.  All the posts on the Jaxson about Bay Street, Laura Street, LaVilla, riverfront parks, failed projects, boondoggle AV's .... how much more does it take to see how out of sorts Downtown is.

Like we posted on the DIA's Future thread, we need to wipe the slate clean and start over with how Downtown is managed (oops, should be "begin to be managed" as it isn't really being done now).

A kindergartner could do better than the present.  Totally frustrating how incompetent leadership is here.

[simms3]

Goal #1 is having downtown as the epicenter for business in the region, but that seems at odds with the permissive view towards office development in further-flung areas like Town Center, the Southside, and even as far as Nocatee (within Duval County).

We should be able to have both.  Right now suburbs in general are outperforming urban cores all around the country, but that's not why we should be able to have both.  We should be able to have both because they are complementary and every other successful city has both a thriving downtown and thriving/large suburban business districts.

For various reasons often brought up here on MJ, Jacksonville's office market has really just been in the pits all over the place since the 1990s.  We had gleaming office headquarters buildings constructed downtown AND large high quality office buildings constructed in the suburbs in the late 80s/1990s.  Since the late 90s it's been an impossible challenge to get either.  Both Austin, TX and Nashville, TN have office high rises underway in both the urban core and various suburban office/high density clusters.  (to name a couple of examples)

We just have a dismal office market, and it's actually a mystery why there is no demand even with all of the people moving here.

I mean there are still a number of office buildings being constructed in the suburbs. Town Center has been an epicenter of office development lately, including the buildings D&B and Sofi are now in. Nocatee has seen new construction, plus the new PGA Tour building in Ponte Vedra. Perhaps that pace is lower than one might hope for but it's still extant.

Mmmm, I would just have to disagree.  Town Center 1/2 are actually not even really that large for suburban office buildings and they are old now, relatively speaking, each having traded hands multiple times since being built (and each with various tenant turnover).  Nocatee is supposed to be 5 buildings and so far they've only been able to build/lease 1.  PGA's buildings are owner-occupied, and grandiose as far as architecture, but not necessarily large in terms of square footage.

The mystery for downtown's office market struggling since the 1990s is consolidation in the banking and insurance industries. In the 1980s, our skyline was larger than our size. However, we lost all those companies that built all those towers for their corporate headquarters. No more Barnett, Florida National, Charter, Gulf Life, Independent Life, American Heritage, etc. Our loss has been Uptown Charlotte's gain. We still have some backfilling to do.

Maybe in the 1990s we were a larger office market relative to our population/size (I just don't know), and that being driven by those industries/office users.  But now we are quite a small office market relative to our population/size, and for whatever reason we aren't drawing large office users to Jacksonville as much as some of our peer cities are, as evidenced by total lack of new construction here and plethora of recent deliveries and pipeline in other cities (and this despite drawing tons of new people to the area...I guess they are all either WFH or working service oriented industries).

Sad/dismayed that despite all of the hullabaloo surrounding both D&B and Paysafe, combined they aren't even occupying half of Town Center 2 at the moment, which in the grand scheme of things is not a lot of office space.  I get jealous of HQ relocations to other sunbelt cities such as Raleigh, Charlotte, Nashville, Tampa, Austin, Atlanta, etc that result in gleaming new skyscrapers, whether downtown or in the burbs.

It is what it is though.  I agree and echo the general sentiment that I wish incentive money were tied to relocating downtown and not the burbs, as I'd rather see downtown benefit than the Town Center area, regardless of the size of the relocation.

Regarding high rise - it WILL happen, just a matter of when.  Once Four Seasons starts selling units and some publicity goes with that, then there will be some market momentum and developers from around the state will take note.  Captain Zissou can speak to what they want for those condos, but the numbers I've heard (on a per square foot) would easily get a high rise deal done with enough units (more than the 24/25 that Four Seasons is doing).

Here's to hoping. There's plenty of land to do that with.

I think the question for the Four Seasons condos will also be who is buying them.  If it is mostly friends of Shad (e.g. Jags and AEW officials and players), I don't think that will make for much market "momentum."  That is a stacked deck.

That is a good question.  I certainly know of a couple people considering buying a unit there that would be considered "insiders" and not people actually wanting to live there.  But at the end of the day, I don't see that many people looking to essentially throw away millions of dollars (or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in a multi-person purchase) on a glam item such as this, despite all the talk about it.  There are for instance some Ortega people that now live in Peninsula, where the nicer units are hovering around +/-$1M but on a per square foot are quite cheap ($400-500).

I know that these people could in all likelihood afford double the price but would they pay that?  That is the big question for our market.  Plus, are there new people moving to town who are used to living in condos and prefer the same quality they maybe came from in other cities?  We shall see...

Maybe the issues at Peninsula will result in some relocations from there to Four Seasons...

Regardless, I really need the Four Seasons to do well.  I need Terraces at San Marco to be selling faster than they are.  I need things to be going well for my condo site!  HAHA  Fingers crossed.

[simms3]

Man is Laura Street every bleak lately.

Walked from JWJ Park to the old Landing site this morning.

You walk from a fenced-off James Weldon Johnson Park.

Past a boarded up Snyder Memorial.

Beside a gross old empty billboard and gutted/boarded up Chamblins apartment building.

Past a boarded up Jacobs Jewelers.

Beside the Laura Street Trio that looks like it was hit by a bomb.

Down to Lenny's lawn, where construction is beginning.

Had a crazy gentleman at the corner of Duval and Laura shout in my face that I was going to burn in hell.

Crazy gentleman in front of Jimmy Johns barking at clouds.

Woman sleeping on the street in front of Snyder with her hand inside of a Honey Smacks box.

Literally almost no non-homeless person out and about on the sidewalks.

Five years ago, things felt so much different. Barnett was under construction. Friends of Hemming Park were planning a $100k stage and Black Sheep container restaurant. Snyder was being RFP'd. Aundra Wallace and Southeast had signed a deal for the Trio. Hyatt Place was planning a hotel across from an active Jacksonville Landing. There was talk of a Hotel Indigo opening with a rooftop bar. And there was just so much more life on the streets.

Sad state of affairs.  I am also so confused by Snyder Memorial.  Like what the hell are we trying to do with it?

Also, I took part in the DVI/Build Up Downtown southbank cleanup this weekend, and walked around Friendship Fountain...literally WHAT THE LITERAL F?!?  I kind of assumed behind the fencing they were actually doing work all this time and it was just taking so long in typical Jax fashion, but they are not doing anything.  Doesn't look like it's been worked on in FOREVER.

I'm blown away by how this could happen.  Come to think of it, I assume the machinery, cranes, barges etc on the Northbank Riverwalk are generally working, slowly, but every time I'm walking around to get some air from my office, there is no movement, no workers, and rusting machinery just hanging aroun.

I've also heard that the city made some sort of mistakes on some of the roadway bids (2-ways and Park St), and they have to go back out to bid.  What in the freaking hell is going on here...we literally suck at doing anything.

Not sure if blame rests squarely on DIA or City Hall or both...it's impressively bad though.

[thelakelander]

The mystery for downtown's office market struggling since the 1990s is consolidation in the banking and insurance industries. In the 1980s, our skyline was larger than our size. However, we lost all those companies that built all those towers for their corporate headquarters. No more Barnett, Florida National, Charter, Gulf Life, Independent Life, American Heritage, etc. Our loss has been Uptown Charlotte's gain. We still have some backfilling to do.

Maybe in the 1990s we were a larger office market relative to our population/size (I just don't know), and that being driven by those industries/office users.  But now we are quite a small office market relative to our population/size, and for whatever reason we aren't drawing large office users to Jacksonville as much as some of our peer cities are, as evidenced by total lack of new construction here and plethora of recent deliveries and pipeline in other cities (and this despite drawing tons of new people to the area...I guess they are all either WFH or working service oriented industries).

Sad/dismayed that despite all of the hullabaloo surrounding both D&B and Paysafe, combined they aren't even occupying half of Town Center 2 at the moment, which in the grand scheme of things is not a lot of office space.  I get jealous of HQ relocations to other sunbelt cities such as Raleigh, Charlotte, Nashville, Tampa, Austin, Atlanta, etc that result in gleaming new skyscrapers, whether downtown or in the burbs.

Our peers these days are Memphis, Norfolk, Birmingham and Louisville, etc. moreso than Charlotte, Nashville, Tampa, Austin, etc. How do we stack up with those MSA's office markets?

[jaxlongtimer]

Planning Department head position is apparently in play with a possible no change/change in the offing. 

This position is critical to all parts of the City.  My beef with current leadership is their white washing requests for rezonings, deviations, etc. by developers even when such approvals violated the ordinance standards the department was supposed to follow.  This has resulted in developments moving forward that were not at all in the interests of the greater community and often over very loud protests from many corners who were, essentially, ignored.

Keeping the current head will not be a positive sign to me of Deegan's willingness to stand up to the "establishment."  I hope she agrees.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jul/19/city-advertising-for-planning-and-development-director-post/

[Ken_FSU]

Man is Laura Street every bleak lately.

Walked from JWJ Park to the old Landing site this morning.

You walk from a fenced-off James Weldon Johnson Park.

Past a boarded up Snyder Memorial.

Beside a gross old empty billboard and gutted/boarded up Chamblins apartment building.

Past a boarded up Jacobs Jewelers.

Beside the Laura Street Trio that looks like it was hit by a bomb.

Down to Lenny's lawn, where construction is beginning.

Had a crazy gentleman at the corner of Duval and Laura shout in my face that I was going to burn in hell.

Crazy gentleman in front of Jimmy Johns barking at clouds.

Woman sleeping on the street in front of Snyder with her hand inside of a Honey Smacks box.

Literally almost no non-homeless person out and about on the sidewalks.

Five years ago, things felt so much different. Barnett was under construction. Friends of Hemming Park were planning a $100k stage and Black Sheep container restaurant. Snyder was being RFP'd. Aundra Wallace and Southeast had signed a deal for the Trio. Hyatt Place was planning a hotel across from an active Jacksonville Landing. There was talk of a Hotel Indigo opening with a rooftop bar. And there was just so much more life on the streets.

Sad state of affairs.  I am also so confused by Snyder Memorial.  Like what the hell are we trying to do with it?

Also, I took part in the DVI/Build Up Downtown southbank cleanup this weekend, and walked around Friendship Fountain...literally WHAT THE LITERAL F?!?  I kind of assumed behind the fencing they were actually doing work all this time and it was just taking so long in typical Jax fashion, but they are not doing anything.  Doesn't look like it's been worked on in FOREVER.

I'm blown away by how this could happen.  Come to think of it, I assume the machinery, cranes, barges etc on the Northbank Riverwalk are generally working, slowly, but every time I'm walking around to get some air from my office, there is no movement, no workers, and rusting machinery just hanging aroun.

I've also heard that the city made some sort of mistakes on some of the roadway bids (2-ways and Park St), and they have to go back out to bid.  What in the freaking hell is going on here...we literally suck at doing anything.

Not sure if blame rests squarely on DIA or City Hall or both...it's impressively bad though.

It probably is both, but to me, City Hall is dealing with an 800 square mile metro, and the DIA's sole job is to aggressively push downtown forward. They should be steering the ship and pushing hard to expedite development of key properties, rather than passing the buck when things remain unaddressed for years. Amongst the lowest hanging fruit in all of the northbank core is the redevelopment of Snyder Memorial into bar, restaurant, or music venue. There's a blueprint for success for this type of redevelopment all over the world. It was last formally RFP'd SEVEN YEARS ago. Over a year ago, the DIA said they were considering another RFP and that they had a running list of interested parties (that they apparently refused to share, https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2022/jun/27/dia-may-put-historic-snyder-memorial-building-on-the-market/), but to the best of my knowledge, nothing has materialized yet. How many of those interested parties moved or lost financing opportunities while the DIA naval gazed and took no action. Meanwhile, the property remains off the market, costing the city millions over the last decade in upkeep and security.

Where is the urgency?

And, to your point, I feel like I'm a broken record, but someone needs to be fired for what's happened with Friendship Park. Maybe multiple people. Back in 2019, Friendship Park was a beautiful amenity for downtown Jacksonville. The fountain itself needed mechanical work, but as a pedestrian park and plaza, it was wildly popular. People went there on their lunch breaks. Families hung out in the park when visiting MOSH. Those using the Riverwalk would stop to pose for pictures in front of the skyline. It was lovely. Then, these clowns decide that the ENTIRE PARK needs to be boarded up prematurely so they can fix the fountain. We're now in our FOURTH YEAR that residents can't access the park, years have gone by with no visible work being done, and nobody in charge of downtown seems to give a shit or be willing to take the blame. No accountability.

The fountain itself has been fixed for SIXTEEN MONTHS:
https://www.news4jax.com/features/2022/03/25/vegas-or-jacksonville-friendship-fountain-shows-off-new-bells-and-whistles/

SIXTEEN FUCKING MONTHS.

And, to your point, anyone who's walked by the site knows that the "just waiting for audio equipment that's hit supply chain issues" excuse is just total crap.

2021 re-opening became a 2022 re-opening became a Memorial Day 2023 reopening became a "mid-July" reopening.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/friendship-fountain-renovation-hits-snag-opening-pushed-back-july/77-3202ffa3-e7c7-4e6e-801a-f1fddd112064

How's that looking? What are we blaming it on this time? Who's taking the blame?

And the kicker is, to Marcus's point earlier this week, there's still no funding to re-do the actual park (didn't we have $100 million in the CIP specifically set aside for projects like this?), so they haven't even started the actual work. Just the fountain repairs. And we're going to have to close the whole damn thing again when we decide to get around to the park.

It's absurd, and so disgustingly disrespectful to downtown residents, businesses, taxpayers, visitors, etc.

Life is short, and this carelessness and poor execution is literally robbing people of years of enjoyment.

And NO ONE is willing to raise their hand and take the blame.

Just repeat the same gaslighty bullshit about COVID, and supply chain, and weather impact.

Heads should roll for this one.

Everyone needs to go. Clean slate.

You're hired to do a job, you fail, you don't get to keep the job.

It's how the real world works.

Love them or hate them, but compare how the DIA and City handles a project vs. how the Jags do. Daily's Place and the new Practice Facility went from concept to opening to the public in less combined time than it takes the city to fix a fountain.

Great job guys. Raises for everyone.