Author Topic: Jaguars’ stadium, sports district could cost City of Jacksonville more than $1B  (Read 45731 times)

marcuscnelson

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I think a more realistic approach for the reflective cladding would be a translucent material similar to what was placed on top of Daily's place. They could still incorporate the custom lighting and color-match the exterior of the stadium to the event being hosted, and it will integrate with Daily's. It will be a lot less impressive, but these renderings are not very realistic. We're in a world where we had to whack some simple curving balconies off of the 4 Seasons office building development, so color me very skeptical.

I have to agree with lakelander; I was hoping to see something about the surrounding development in this announcement.

Yeah, this seems a little too conceptual to take seriously. Even So-Fi Stadium isn't that curvy. My engineering friends are confused about the idea of doing a flexible roof per the renderings. Personally I was expecting something a bit closer to maybe (a discount) Titans Stadium than something that looks straight out of Qatar.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

Charles Hunter

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Initial thoughts
1. oooh shiny outside, kinda like the Chicago Bean (first VE victim)
2. are the north end zone pools gone?
3. "ground level" suites: which actually look to be below ground level - pay extra to see the backs of the players on (by) the benches?
1. We'll see.
2. Pools are still there if you look at the renderings.  They are just more integrated into seating areas in the north end zone now. ah, I see them now, missed them in the video
3. Ground level suites are very common nowadays.  Most new stadiums have a ground level club or suite area.  Look at SoFi. still doesn't make them 'make sense' to me, unless you are longing for your HS football days (real or imagined)


jaxlongtimer

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Interesting comments from Mark Lamping in the Business Journal.  Looks like little of this is etched in stone at this point so not sure how they can reliably cost it out or commit to the renderings.

Quote
That process involved the Haskell companies. There were five phases. They have completed almost two of those five phases. That first phase revealed that its possible to achieve that objective of having a stadium that will serve the needs of all the stakeholders for decades to come through a renovation. They came to that conclusion through their evaluation of the building systems, primarily the structural systems. …They came back with a positive report. With that in mind, we know that its possible to renovate. We prefer renovation for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which is new stadium construction costs continue to escalate year after year and renovations are significantly less expensive. That is the preferred path.

As you talk about renovation, there is the question of where do you begin? We tried to explain that while we don’t have a final plan of what the stadium of the future will look like – because we need to go through the process with all the stakeholders. It’s not just the Jaguars stadium, the stadium belongs to the entire community. We do know there are a handful of things that absolutely need to be a part of the Stadium of the Future.

Todd_Parker

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The reflective exterior will be a nice extension of the "Jax" installation at the new riverfront park. This is assuming neither will be value-engineered into oblivion (as is usually the case around these parts)

acme54321

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I like the one rendering with mountains and windmills in the distance

fsu813

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The reflective exterior will be a nice extension of the "Jax" installation at the new riverfront park. This is assuming neither will be value-engineered into oblivion (as is usually the case around these parts)

No big shiny JAX at Riverfront Plaza. Something more cost conscious is being formulated.

Charles Hunter

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That highly reflective exterior will be just a thrill for Arlington commuters - in the morning coming across the Mathews Bridge with the rising sun reflecting into your eyes, and the reverse heading back to Arlington. From my commuting days, the Wells Fargo and Bank of America buildings were enough of a thrill in the mornings during certain times of the year.

Charles Hunter

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Nate Monroe's take on the Jags deal.  Sorry that the article is behind the TU paywall

If you subscribe:
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2023/06/07/shad-khan-jaguars-owner-is-playing-hardball-with-jacksonville-nate-monroe/70296861007/?fbclid=IwAR1Jrb1jvbAMf1KiLqyMA3rlgiREa9I9y0HXkhrTzCwIc8L56S5vqzc_P4Y

Quote
Khan has asked much of the city, and much it has provided.

His net worth, $11.4 billion, has soared, as has the $3.4 billion value of the team, which he purchased in 2011 for less than $800 million. Much of that value accrued during a performance dark ages among the worst in the NFL's history. Even then, the city and its fans delivered.

There was no law that said Khan had to ask the city for $1 billion, nor any requirement he roll out this ask on the eve of a new mayor taking office. It's not written in stone that an NFL owner do everything within their power to increase and then exploit maximum leverage over their host. Those were choices Khan simply made. He has chosen to play hardball.

Ken_FSU

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^Love Nate, but disagree with the premise that Shad Khan is playing hardball with Jacksonville.

Playing hardball would have involved asking for a brand new stadium under threat of relocation.

The Jags proactively recommended a major renovation of the existing facility.

The price tag to add a plethora of improvements to a city-owned facility that are genuinely needed - protection from the elements, heat reduction during early season months, wider concourses, resiliency measures, replacement of irrigation and electrical systems, etc - is $1.3 to $1.4 billion.

Bills stadium is $1.6 billion. Vegas is $2 billion. Nashville is $2.1 billion. Sofi was $5 billion.

Seems like a fairly good price tag for the stadium all things considered.

In terms of fleecing the taxpayer, I don’t know if there’s a city in the league that’s put as little true public money (e.g. not bed taxes or facility fees/ticket surcharges) into their NFL franchise over the last 30 years as Jacksonville has. There are teams who will have built two brand new stadiums by the time ours potentially opens.

Would be it great if Shad Khan altruistically funded the entire project out of pocket? Of course. And yes, other owners have done so, but it hasn’t been out of altruism. It’s because those stadiums are in major top-10 markets on tap for Olympics, Super Bowls, major annual college football games, World Cup matches, and the biggest touring acts in the country. Jacksonville ain’t Los Angeles or New York, where the stadium is going to be a cash cow for a private owner outside of the football season.

But it’s just not realistic to want to remain an NFL city, but scoff at the idea of putting significant public investment behind your stadium and ancillary development that generates local revenue 365 days a year. It’s the new norm in the NFL, for better or worse, and Jax isn’t being singled out or mistreated any more than any other market. Like I said, we’ve probably gotten it better than many.

If you want to argue that we shouldn’t be putting any public money into professional sports and should just let the Jags walk, that’s a different argument that may have validity for many. And if you want to argue that no economic impact study has shown a positive ROI for pro sports, I think we’re missing the entire quality of life element of these facilities and events dating all the way back to the Roman Empire. It’s as much about creating a place where people want to live and stay as it is turning a profit on paper.

Sucks that Jacksonville won’t be eligible for the same state funds as other markets, but that doesn’t change the price tag. Also sucks that we have other underfunded needs as well, but as city, we can’t expect to have both rock bottom taxes and nice things.

I don’t even mind the London game if it’s capped at one. We’ve got an extra home game every other year now anyway, it’s become a bit of a tradition, it drives a lot of local revenue for the team that would otherwise manifest itself in higher ticket prices for local games, and - assuming our city leaders were able to capitalize on the synergy between the two cities beyond over-subsidizing a relocation that would have happened regardless - it is a great opportunity.

We had to know this day was coming. The overall city price tag is in line with what we should have expected if we read the room in other markets, and even the adjacent development is genuinely needed to complement other investment we’ve already made with the Four Seasons, MOSH, Shipyards West, Orleck, Baseball Grounds, etc.

Can’t have our cake and eat it too.

A billion or slightly below to keep the team here through 2050+, massive improve the stadium experience, lure more events, stand up complementary entertainment at the sports complex, ain’t a bad deal at ALL.


« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 06:53:13 PM by Ken_FSU »

landfall

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Totally agree. Could be worse. That Bills stadium is appalling. Imagine nearly a billion in public funds for an open air stadium out in St. John's or up by the airport surrounded by nothing but thousands of parking spaces with no spin off. Also the Bills used Austin, Texas for leverage! If we're going to give a fortune to an NFL or any pro team I want it to be in a walkable environment that can act as a springboard for further development and also benefit existing business, and I think Lamping and Khan get that.

Pick your poison. I want to be a pro town but I also want more than to just gift a team money for 10-12 dates per year.

Also on a side issue, I actually have no problem with games temporarily being played in Gainesville or Tallahassee. The team needs to become a regional attraction and that in turn will entice more visitors.

Jax_Developer

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I'd like to see the case studies made for cities like St. Louis or Oakland compared to how those cities are fairing economically today. I bet the expectation didn't equate to the actual outcome.

Charles Hunter

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I'd like to see the cost penalty for the "start-stop" construction option that allows the Jags, FL/GA, and the Gator Bowl, to play by stopping construction during football season. I'm sure it is steep, if it is even possible, given the extensive changes proposed.

Also, I haven't read every article about the upgrades, but I keep seeing "irrigation and electrical" but nothing about plumbing. It seems there have been chronic problems with this bit of the infrastructure.

fieldafm

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I'm interested to learn more about the potential of a community benefits agreement for the Eastside and plans for equitable economic development opportunities north of the expressway.

And for the love of God, take that barbell development nonsense out back and kill it for good. There's a good amount of development happening in the core of the Northbank now. It's not reliant on what takes place in the Eastside (i.e. Sports District). Nevertheless, no one is really going to complain about better using underutilized surface parking lots around the stadium. Hopefully, COJ sells the land around the stadium, so that the development ends up on the tax rolls.

As soon as property values hit near Springfield levels (aka new construction is profitable) the Eastside should be able to revitalize fairly quickly given the of it size and how it is platted. Interesting to see how that is handled of course given the significant % of renters living here.

That last part I couldn't agree more. Didn't realize how much land COJ has even behind the JAGS stadium too. This is probably the time to let that go.. there is also a block size assemblage for sale one block from the JAGS stadium right now.. could be a DORO part 2. Lots of good RE activity going on here.. need to make sure locals aren't taken advantage of and displaced.

New residential construction has been happening on the Eastside for several years now.

My industry doesn't compare public-private partnerships to private enterprise. Just like the projects DT that have been going on for "decades."

Please tell me how you build new construction SFH's on the Eastside for profit? I'd love to hear.

I've worked in 'your industry' for more than two decades.  JWB has built and is currently building new for-profit SFH in the Eastside neighborhood.

jcjohnpaint

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^Love Nate, but disagree with the premise that Shad Khan is playing hardball with Jacksonville.

Playing hardball would have involved asking for a brand new stadium under threat of relocation.

The Jags proactively recommended a major renovation of the existing facility.

The price tag to add a plethora of improvements to a city-owned facility that are genuinely needed - protection from the elements, heat reduction during early season months, wider concourses, resiliency measures, replacement of irrigation and electrical systems, etc - is $1.3 to $1.4 billion.

Bills stadium is $1.6 billion. Vegas is $2 billion. Nashville is $2.1 billion. Sofi was $5 billion.

Seems like a fairly good price tag for the stadium all things considered.

In terms of fleecing the taxpayer, I don’t know if there’s a city in the league that’s put as little true public money (e.g. not bed taxes or facility fees/ticket surcharges) into their NFL franchise over the last 30 years as Jacksonville has. There are teams who will have built two brand new stadiums by the time ours potentially opens.

Would be it great if Shad Khan altruistically funded the entire project out of pocket? Of course. And yes, other owners have done so, but it hasn’t been out of altruism. It’s because those stadiums are in major top-10 markets on tap for Olympics, Super Bowls, major annual college football games, World Cup matches, and the biggest touring acts in the country. Jacksonville ain’t Los Angeles or New York, where the stadium is going to be a cash cow for a private owner outside of the football season.

But it’s just not realistic to want to remain an NFL city, but scoff at the idea of putting significant public investment behind your stadium and ancillary development that generates local revenue 365 days a year. It’s the new norm in the NFL, for better or worse, and Jax isn’t being singled out or mistreated any more than any other market. Like I said, we’ve probably gotten it better than many.

If you want to argue that we shouldn’t be putting any public money into professional sports and should just let the Jags walk, that’s a different argument that may have validity for many. And if you want to argue that no economic impact study has shown a positive ROI for pro sports, I think we’re missing the entire quality of life element of these facilities and events dating all the way back to the Roman Empire. It’s as much about creating a place where people want to live and stay as it is turning a profit on paper.

Sucks that Jacksonville won’t be eligible for the same state funds as other markets, but that doesn’t change the price tag. Also sucks that we have other underfunded needs as well, but as city, we can’t expect to have both rock bottom taxes and nice things.

I don’t even mind the London game if it’s capped at one. We’ve got an extra home game every other year now anyway, it’s become a bit of a tradition, it drives a lot of local revenue for the team that would otherwise manifest itself in higher ticket prices for local games, and - assuming our city leaders were able to capitalize on the synergy between the two cities beyond over-subsidizing a relocation that would have happened regardless - it is a great opportunity.

We had to know this day was coming. The overall city price tag is in line with what we should have expected if we read the room in other markets, and even the adjacent development is genuinely needed to complement other investment we’ve already made with the Four Seasons, MOSH, Shipyards West, Orleck, Baseball Grounds, etc.

Can’t have our cake and eat it too.

A billion or slightly below to keep the team here through 2050+, massive improve the stadium experience, lure more events, stand up complementary entertainment at the sports complex, ain’t a bad deal at ALL.

Totally agree here!

jaxlongtimer

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I am going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

Not every citizen in Jax is convinced we need the Jags at any price or, some, even at all.  Like anything, there are winners and losers with these issues.  If you are not a diehard fan (and, for some, maybe if you are) and live in a part of town that has been denied decent services for decades or value more other quality of life issues, such as parks, culture, libraries, more public safety, better streets, sidewalks, bike paths and drainage, water and sewer services, etc., you may be a counterweight to many of the Jags positive comments here.

One could also argue the Jags are in Jax because the NFL recognized Jax as an up and coming city of the future (plus a sweetheart deal from the City) as opposed to the Jags bringing that growth to Jax.  Just as Austin, Las Vegas, Nashville, Orlando, Salt Lake City, Portland and Charlotte were expanding/booming before, or without, an NFL team. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?  We will probably never know for sure.

I am just saying this is not a black and white issue for our community as a whole and, politically, the Jags need to recognize that and accept that any mayor is limited to how far they can give in to the demands being made.

I also think the mayor needs to insure the Jags deliver what they are promising and don't water it down like Daily's Place or other projects have been.  If the City pays top dollar it needs to insure world class value in return, no ifs, ands, or buts.  Many of us are tired of Jax getting second class projects that don't stand the test of time or mark us as a distinctive location.

Lastly, many think the surrounding counties, particularly St. Johns and Nassau, should contribute to the cause as many Jags fans reside in those counties and their hotels greatly benefit from games in Jax.  This should definitely be explored as probably 35 to 40% of the area population lives outside of Duval and, proportionately, maybe even a higher percentage of fans that attend the games.