Author Topic: Jaguars’ stadium, sports district could cost City of Jacksonville more than $1B  (Read 45938 times)

thelakelander

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Lastly, many think the surrounding counties, particularly St. Johns and Nassau, should contribute to the cause as many Jags fans reside in those counties and their hotels greatly benefit from games in Jax.

This "many" must 100% live in Duval.
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Jax_Developer

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I'm interested to learn more about the potential of a community benefits agreement for the Eastside and plans for equitable economic development opportunities north of the expressway.

And for the love of God, take that barbell development nonsense out back and kill it for good. There's a good amount of development happening in the core of the Northbank now. It's not reliant on what takes place in the Eastside (i.e. Sports District). Nevertheless, no one is really going to complain about better using underutilized surface parking lots around the stadium. Hopefully, COJ sells the land around the stadium, so that the development ends up on the tax rolls.

As soon as property values hit near Springfield levels (aka new construction is profitable) the Eastside should be able to revitalize fairly quickly given the of it size and how it is platted. Interesting to see how that is handled of course given the significant % of renters living here.

That last part I couldn't agree more. Didn't realize how much land COJ has even behind the JAGS stadium too. This is probably the time to let that go.. there is also a block size assemblage for sale one block from the JAGS stadium right now.. could be a DORO part 2. Lots of good RE activity going on here.. need to make sure locals aren't taken advantage of and displaced.

New residential construction has been happening on the Eastside for several years now.

My industry doesn't compare public-private partnerships to private enterprise. Just like the projects DT that have been going on for "decades."

Please tell me how you build new construction SFH's on the Eastside for profit? I'd love to hear.

I've worked in 'your industry' for more than two decades.  JWB has built and is currently building new for-profit SFH in the Eastside neighborhood.

Who do you think has built a ton of homes for JWB? Lol.. And yeah 2-3 homes sold over the past 5 years really demonstrates the neighborhood can be built "for-profit." Maybe look into it a little bit more, before spouting a pretty hefty claim. The irony.. Mixon Town has 10x the New Construction the Eastside has.. oh and all for-profit. Maybe also understand that the economics JWB (aka American Classic Homes in many cases) can bring to the table is not anywhere near the economics 99.9% of builders can do locally. You'd understand that concept if you were in the biz. JWB has built a business around vertical integration and that's a great business model.

Also please provide resources for your claims on the "positive" economic impact the Jags leaving will have on Jacksonville relative to the $1B price tag... and the local economy while we're at it? You also seem to be an expert on economics too. I haven't seen a single study made for it in the last several years. I don't make claims on here about social issues, mainly because I lack the expertise to comment on them locally. It's hard being an expert in everything Field... Imagine all that new construction that would halt on the Eastside if they moved!

P.S. Hats off to LISC, hats off to the Eastside community leaders. They are getting the ball rolling and in a few years the Eastside SHOULD be a great community. PHX I hope is next.

Captain Zissou

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^Love Nate, but disagree with the premise that Shad Khan is playing hardball with Jacksonville.

Playing hardball would have involved asking for a brand new stadium under threat of relocation.

The Jags proactively recommended a major renovation of the existing facility.

The price tag to add a plethora of improvements to a city-owned facility that are genuinely needed - protection from the elements, heat reduction during early season months, wider concourses, resiliency measures, replacement of irrigation and electrical systems, etc - is $1.3 to $1.4 billion.

Bills stadium is $1.6 billion. Vegas is $2 billion. Nashville is $2.1 billion. Sofi was $5 billion.

This.  What people forget is that all stadium deals and stadium leases have to get approved by 75% of NFL owners.  The owners are the ones putting pressure on the team to get a favorable deal.  In an act of good faith, Shad is trying to make it up to the city by agreeing to build other properties around the stadium at significant cost.  He doesn't have to do that.  Shad's doing what he can to make this palatable to the city, so hopefully the city plays ball.

BridgeTroll

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Hefty price tag but a 50/50 split seems pretty reasonable. Will Kahn pay for overruns?  This is the price we pay for NFL franchises…
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jaxoNOLE

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It seems like a fair deal so long as the numbers provided are honest. If the surrounding area details mirror the earlier Lot J deal, suggesting costs of $1 million per hotel room et al, then we're back to the very same argument we had before. I'd like to think Khan and Lamping learned their lesson on transparency there. Lot J would have passed if the breadbox loan was eliminated, which would have resulted in about a 36/64 split between the city and the Jags. The 14/86 split proposed here is clearly an effort to soften the blow of the stadium ask.

The Jags don't need to threaten to leave, and they know it. We committed ourselves to this kind of project the day we brought an NFL franchise to town. If we can't or are unwilling to afford the upkeep on our fancy toy, then we must be willing to part with it -- but it won't be because Khan has offered up a raw deal in this case.

I'll say this much, I think your average Jaxson (even one skeptical of funding the stadium) will find it easier to support this project than moving the jail and retrofitting the Skyway.

Charles Hunter

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The stadium is getting a roof to block the direct sunlight onto the stands. Then there is this feature:
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The façade will raise at the northern and southern ends to promote airflow inside the stadium.

From Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timnewcomb/2023/06/08/design-direction-behind-jacksonville-jaguars-stadium-of-the-future/?sh=40bd82482c12

A couple of questions
1. Are there prevailing breezes that will flow through these openings to provide relief? My experience is that summer air in Jacksonville is pretty darn still - unless there is a thunderstorm.
2. Does this mean an AC system will be installed to cool the entire volume under the roof? Or are they relying on the non-existent breezes to provide cooling airflow? Who pays the electric bill to cool all that volume?

jaxlongtimer

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^ Trying to AC an open air stadium might cost more than the stadium  ;D   No way they can AC what will still amount to the great outdoors sans sun.  The best they could do is have giant fans, maybe powered by jet engines. LOL.

I think they are counting on breezes resulting from being along side the river.   Their biggest nightmare with this concept is a still summer night with a low of 85+ degrees at midnight and near 100% humidity.  Nothing will make you feel good with that.   I remember being at a Jumbo Shrimp game with such weather and it wasn't too fun.

jaxoNOLE

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The stadium is getting a roof to block the direct sunlight onto the stands. Then there is this feature:
Quote
The façade will raise at the northern and southern ends to promote airflow inside the stadium.

From Forbes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timnewcomb/2023/06/08/design-direction-behind-jacksonville-jaguars-stadium-of-the-future/?sh=40bd82482c12

A couple of questions
1. Are there prevailing breezes that will flow through these openings to provide relief? My experience is that summer air in Jacksonville is pretty darn still - unless there is a thunderstorm.
2. Does this mean an AC system will be installed to cool the entire volume under the roof? Or are they relying on the non-existent breezes to provide cooling airflow? Who pays the electric bill to cool all that volume?

Unsure on the first point, but as to the second, no a/c per the TU article:

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The most obvious difference is the addition of a roof that would protect fans from scorching sun in early-season games as well as rainstorms throughout the year. Broeder compared the “roof membrane” to the finish on sunglasses in how it will disperse sunlight throughout the interior of the stadium. It would be a fixed roof, not a roof that can be opened and closed.

The exterior of the stadium would be wrapped by a “first-of-its-kind mirrored material” that will provide an energy-efficient facade, according to the Jaguars. The stadium would not have air conditioning, but the material used in constructing the building would cut heat retention by 70% and lower temperatures by 10 to 15 degrees.

The reconstruction of the stadium also would open four corners of the building to create breezeways so more air can circulate through the stadium. Broeder said the construction will remove a large amount of the seating bowl "in a surgical fashion" for those four breezeways.

“We’re going to be protecting from the sun and from the rain, but we’re going to be maximizing air flow throughout the building,” Broeder said.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/06/07/jacksonville-jaguars-show-plan-for-stadium-with-shade-cover/70296829007/

Charles Hunter

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^ Trying to AC an open air stadium might cost more than the stadium  ;D   No way they can AC what will still amount to the great outdoors sans sun.  The best they could do is have giant fans, maybe powered by jet engines. LOL.

I think they are counting on breezes resulting from being along side the river.   Their biggest nightmare with this concept is a still summer night with a low of 85+ degrees at midnight and near 100% humidity.  Nothing will make you feel good with that.   I remember being at a Jumbo Shrimp game with such weather and it wasn't too fun.

That's why we don't go to events at Daily's Place in the warm months - that place is an oven, even at nighttime concerts. No airflow at all.

First Coast News is right next to the stadium. I am sure they have an onsite weather station. Surely, they have daily records of the winds and temperatures during the August to October (November?) months the last few years.

jaxlongtimer

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^ I recall they said they are trying to mimic SOFI stadium in LA but LA doesn't have our weather so not sure this is as good an idea here as it is there.  Seems most newer southern stadiums are fully enclosed and air conditioned but haven't tallied them up.  Maybe someone can take the time to do so.

Looks like there are other design differences between the Jags plan and SOFI plus SOFI benefits from cooler winds from the Pacific Ocean (not the warmer St. Johns River  ;D ) per below.  And, SOFI is about 100 feet into the ground so that may further help regulate temps.

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The design keeps fans cool
Which is a good thing, because the day's forecast for Inglewood is expected to produce the hottest Super Bowl on record. The roof of SoFi Stadium is open on three sides, allowing for a cooling breeze to flow through, courtesy of the Pacific Ocean, which is about 5 miles away.

The stadium's designers say the roof is "monumental" in other ways.

"We wanted this stadium to be a completely outdoor venue," Lance Evans, principal and senior designer at HKS, says in this video. "We want it to feel like you were embraced and enveloped in Southern California, but we knew we wanted to provide protection for all the kind of adverse climatic conditions that could happen."

That means the roof is made of panels that can slide open and closed based on conditions. The movement helps regulate temperature in the facility in a sustainable way, Evans notes.

https://www.wvxu.org/sports/2022-02-10/fun-facts-about-sofi-stadium-inglewood-california-super-bowl
« Last Edit: June 08, 2023, 07:57:40 PM by jaxlongtimer »

Ken_FSU

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Might be an unpopular opinion, but considering our citywide reluctance to raise taxes, and given our desire to:

- Build a world-class stadium tied to a long-term lease extension for the Jags
- Fulfill promises to underserved neighborhoods dating back to consolidation
- Move the prison out of downtown
- Build a convention center
- Stand-up a world class urban park system
- Reduce crime
- Shore up long-term pension liability
- Improve local infrastructure

The least painful, most plausible path forward may still be a sale of JEA.

Lots of drawbacks, don't get me wrong, but assuming we could still land a similar deal to the one proposed during the botched privatization a few years back, it's probably our best chance to dramatically push the city forward in an equitable way, pay off our existing municipal debt, and fund these major projects pay-go to save hundreds of millions - if not billions - in interest. With the least pain possible for the average citizen.

Funding through a JEA sale also passes some of the burden onto surrounding counties as well, rather than funding coming primarily from the Duval County tax base.

It's a shame the well has been so badly poisoned by Curry and Co. when it comes to this topic.

There's not a great alternate path to rock bottom taxes and nice, modern things for all.

If you bind it to a compelling list of uses, including setting aside a few billion in reserve to generate enough interest to offset losses to the general fund that typically come from JEA, I bet it's got a better chance of getting a yes-vote in a city wide referendum than a true tax increase.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2023, 10:50:16 AM by Ken_FSU »

tufsu1

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In an act of good faith, Shad is trying to make it up to the city by agreeing to build other properties around the stadium at significant cost.  He doesn't have to do that. 

Question - does Shad get the land for free? Who gets the revenues/profits from those properties?

fsu813

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Might be an unpopular opinion, but considering our citywide reluctance to raise taxes, and given our desire to:

- Build a world-class stadium tied to a long-term lease extension for the Jags
- Fulfill promises to underserved neighborhoods dating back to consolidation
- Move the prison out of downtown
- Build a convention center
- Stand-up a world class urban park system
- Reduce crime
- Shore up long-term pension liability
- Improve local infrastructure

The least painful, most plausible path forward may still be a sale of JEA.

Lots of drawbacks, don't get me wrong, but assuming we could still land a similar deal to the one proposed during the botched privatization a few years back, it's probably our best chance to dramatically push the city forward in an equitable way, pay off our existing municipal debt, and fund these major projects pay-go to save hundreds of millions - if not billions - in interest. With the least pain possible for the average citizen.

Funding through a JEA sale also passes some of the burden onto surrounding counties as well, rather than funding coming primarily from the Duval County tax base.

It's a shame the well has been so badly poisoned by Curry and Co. when it comes to this topic.

There's not a great alternate path to rock bottom taxes and nice, modern things for all.

If you bind it to a compelling list of uses, including setting aside a few billion in reserve to generate enough interest to offset losses to the general fund that typically come from JEA, I bet it's got a better chance of getting a yes-vote in a city wide referendum than a true tax increase.

City leaders haven't been opposed to raising taxes when an effective narrative is used.

jaxlongtimer

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City leaders haven't been opposed to raising taxes when an effective narrative is used.

This.  The citizens and leadership of the City need to decide what is important and worth investing in.  No such thing as a free lunch. Our taxes are not the highest so there is some room for an increase.  Selling JEA would only be a stop gap measure and most of the items on Ken's list need continuous investment or are depreciating assets so a one-time shot in the arm is not going to sustain such projects forever like the JEA revenue stream does... and then what?

Pay as you go is the best policy.  Per the Florida Dept. of Revenue stats, in 2022, Duval had about $90+ billion in taxable value.  So a .25 mil increase will generate $22,500,000 (that's today, before increasing property values in the future due to inflation and growth).  Bonded at 5% over 30 years, I calculate this will raise about $4.1 billion for capex.  That should do nicely addressing many of the wishes of the citizenry for that time period.  Double to .5 mil and raise $8.2 billion if we want to be more ambitious.

If worthy, you could bond, say .25 mils and use the other .25 mils for ongoing added expenses.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2023, 06:29:03 PM by jaxlongtimer »

Ken_FSU

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Every time I get salty that Shad Khan doesn't address the local media and public more frequently, he's handed a live mic and I'm reminded why he shouldn't.