JWJ Park?

[marcuscnelson]

LOL, that's not a good way to plan public spaces.....

"We are required to spend this pot of money by X date despite the lack of sufficient planning" has blown up everything from park projects to California's high speed rail project. Awful.

Talked with Friends of JWB. A pot of money had to be used by X date, so they used it to remove the fountains and replace with grass. Fountains were expensive to maintain, weren't thought to be in the parks future. Fencing will leave soon, after grass establishes itself a bit. No final design has been decided upon.

I will say that this doesn't seem all that bad to me. The space, being as constrained as it is, is probably better utilized for more active uses, there can be fountains at other urban parks.

[Steve]

That is truly strange logic.

[fsu813]

That is truly strange logic.

How so?

Final plan isn't set yet. They know the fountains will be gone. They have $ to spend by X date. They're spending it on removing the fountains now, in lieu of waiting on the final design to be announced. Dirt and sod are cheap to install, easily changed to whatever the final design calls for.

[Ken_FSU]

That is truly strange logic.

How so?

Final plan isn't set yet. They know the fountains will be gone. They have $ to spend by X date. They're spending it on removing the fountains now, in lieu of waiting on the final design to be announced. Dirt and sod are cheap to install, easily changed to whatever the final design calls for.

Thanks for the info!

My issue with the removal of the fountains is the same issue I have with numerous downtown projects.

The fountains were in place, functional, had been there for 50 years, and were a serving a purpose in beautifying the park.

And now, they have been cheaply grassed over, removing an amenity from the urban fabric for a lengthy period of time before a final plan is in place for how to replace them.

See:

- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park

They're only fountains, maybe I'm an isolated use case of a guy who enjoyed sitting near them multiple times a week to work, and in a vacuum, it's not the biggest deal in the world. My personal beef is that it's just part of a much larger city pattern of taking amenities offline and preventing taxpayers from enjoying them, often for years at a time, without a plan for improvement. Our downtown would be significantly more vibrant if we simply waited until a final plan was in place and ready to roll before making way for the wrecking ball. The fountains were nice, the patchy grass looks cheap and goofy with or without a fence and a downgrade to the space, and I'll happily eat my laptop if we're not stuck looking at said grass for years to come while a final plan is decided upon.

Would have rather seen JWJ invest those surplus dollars into a short-term improvement to the park, rather than rushing to demolish an existing feature, even if it wasn't a part of the long-term plans.

[Captain Zissou]

- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park

This needs to be projected on the side of city hall.  Demo permits need to be tied to construction permits.  If you don't have a plan, you can't level the site and let it sit for years.  It's been proposed before that fees need to be imposed on these projects that just let the property sit for years and I agree.

[thelakelander]

Talked with Friends of JWB. A pot of money had to be used by X date, so they used it to remove the fountains and replace with grass. Fountains were expensive to maintain, weren't thought to be in the parks future. Fencing will leave soon, after grass establishes itself a bit. No final design has been decided upon.

I will say that this doesn't seem all that bad to me. The space, being as constrained as it is, is probably better utilized for more active uses, there can be fountains at other urban parks.

The same was said about destroying Kids Kampus because of maintenance costs. +10 years have passed and still dreaming of a replacement. Don't get suckered in by traditional downtown Jax revitalization excuse making! :-)

[marcuscnelson]

Talked with Friends of JWB. A pot of money had to be used by X date, so they used it to remove the fountains and replace with grass. Fountains were expensive to maintain, weren't thought to be in the parks future. Fencing will leave soon, after grass establishes itself a bit. No final design has been decided upon.

I will say that this doesn't seem all that bad to me. The space, being as constrained as it is, is probably better utilized for more active uses, there can be fountains at other urban parks.

The same was said about destroying Kids Kampus because of maintenance costs. +10 years have passed and still dreaming of a replacement. Don't get suckered in by traditional downtown Jax revitalization excuse making! :-)

Don't get me wrong here. Kids Kampus was a lot more than a fountain, and more active than the idea of an event lawn that was to replace it. But we absolutely should get a move on with a real improvement plan for JWJ, and funding for it and the other urban parks. I'm curious what that might actually look like since it was a big mention during the mayor's campaign.

- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park

This needs to be projected on the side of city hall.  Demo permits need to be tied to construction permits.  If you don't have a plan, you can't level the site and let it sit for years.  It's been proposed before that fees need to be imposed on these projects that just let the property sit for years and I agree.

But yes, absolutely. That is also a fair point that they could have used the money for other improvements instead of removing the fountain, and I wonder if there's a particular reason why the fountains were the top choice here.

[thelakelander]

I believe with proper planning, things like removing a fountain without public input.......because it is too expensive to maintain, is a horrible way to plan and implement. It suggests we're flying by the seat of our pants, as opposed to having a cohesive vision and making sure that everything we do is an incremental step in achieving that vision.

That is truly strange logic.

How so?

Final plan isn't set yet. They know the fountains will be gone. They have $ to spend by X date. They're spending it on removing the fountains now, in lieu of waiting on the final design to be announced. Dirt and sod are cheap to install, easily changed to whatever the final design calls for.

Thanks for the info!

My issue with the removal of the fountains is the same issue I have with numerous downtown projects.

The fountains were in place, functional, had been there for 50 years, and were a serving a purpose in beautifying the park.

And now, they have been cheaply grassed over, removing an amenity from the urban fabric for a lengthy period of time before a final plan is in place for how to replace them.

See:

- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park

They're only fountains, maybe I'm an isolated use case of a guy who enjoyed sitting near them multiple times a week to work, and in a vacuum, it's not the biggest deal in the world. My personal beef is that it's just part of a much larger city pattern of taking amenities offline and preventing taxpayers from enjoying them, often for years at a time, without a plan for improvement. Our downtown would be significantly more vibrant if we simply waited until a final plan was in place and ready to roll before making way for the wrecking ball. The fountains were nice, the patchy grass looks cheap and goofy with or without a fence and a downgrade to the space, and I'll happily eat my laptop if we're not stuck looking at said grass for years to come while a final plan is decided upon.

Would have rather seen JWJ invest those surplus dollars into a short-term improvement to the park, rather than rushing to demolish an existing feature, even if it wasn't a part of the long-term plans.

This is a huge problem and one of the largest reasons for downtown's slow revitalization. How much public money has been spent with many of these demolitions? How much foot traffic and jobs have we lost because of these demolitions? Sometimes, it's just better to do nothing, if you don't know what you're doing. At least, these spaces would be there for someone who would know what they are doing.

[simms3]

- Removing the Landing and its 30 small businesses years before necessary, with no plan in place for the site.
- Removing the Courthouse and Annex 5 years ago to make way for development of the site; it's still a grass lawn
- Allowing River City Brewing to be demolished without a development agreement for the site in place; still no concrete plan for replacement
- Allowing the unchecked demolition of the old Greyhound station without a concrete plan in place; will be a surface parking lot for years
- Allowing Welcome to Rockville to leave Jacksonville in 2019 to make way for Lot J construction; still no deal in place
- Allowing Captain Sandy to demolish historic building stock in LaVilla for a speculative new restaurant; building is gone, restaurant will never materialize
- Allowing the full demolition of the Ford plant without an agreed upon plan on what will replace it; building gone
- Gutting and closing Friendship Park OVER FOUR YEARS AGO with no plan on how to quickly reopen it and no budget for St. Johns Park
- Ripping the bandshell down in Metro Park because budget allowed and effectively closing the park to the public; still no formal plan for Met Park

This needs to be projected on the side of city hall.  Demo permits need to be tied to construction permits.  If you don't have a plan, you can't level the site and let it sit for years.  It's been proposed before that fees need to be imposed on these projects that just let the property sit for years and I agree.

Agreed!  I'm still FLOORED that we allowed Captain Sandy to come in and buy some very difficult restoration project sight unseen, then complain it's too difficult and "need to demolish it", get those permits.  And the worst part about it, is you're right, we'll never see her restaurant there, ever.  I mean it's surrounded by other buildings surrounded by concertina wire, and a big ass hulking courthouse.  It's her fault if that was the first place she looked and she truly bought it sight unseen.  She should have had a better broker (or one at all), or talked to someone to figure out where she might have better luck opening a fancy yacht-themed restaurant.

Good Lord.  One day that building was going to be justified.  Far from today, now never.  We've got like 3 original buildings left in LaVilla.

Meanwhile, over in Avondale I've got about three REAL teardowns on my block that the crazies won't let even so much as a fly land on, so they'll just remain looking like s**t and dragging down our property values (and knocking these three crackhouses down won't endanger the population of "historic" 1930s-1950s homes in the area).  It's amazing the difference - this city and certain organizations within it punish the hell out of residential homeowners, but treat commercial investors completely opposite in downtown by letting them knock down truly historic and unique "fabric making/identity making" buildings for lowest and worst use replacements.

[vicupstate]

^^^
Simms3 can you post a picture of these three teardowns?

[Tacachale]

^^^
Simms3 can you post a picture of these three teardowns?

This should be good.

[Ken_FSU]

I stand corrected.

Big upgrade to the existing 50-year old fountains.



Can’t you just smell the vibrancy and the focused, incremental progress that can only come from having a unified plan?

We’re all playing checkers.

The city is playing chess.

[thelakelander]

^Lol.....what is this?!

How did we end up with a vacant lot in a public park? How many years are we out from an actual park renovation? Is it in the CIP yet?

[iMarvin]

That looks terrible. I'll never understand how this city keeps making the same mistakes.

[marcuscnelson]

How many years are we out from an actual park renovation? Is it in the CIP yet?

There's $5 million in the CIP for FY 26-27 to "provide a redesign of the park." That's it.