JWJ Park?

[Ken_FSU]

Anyone know what's going on?

I know they took out the pedestal for the confederate monument over the weekend, but most of the park is blocked off this morning with "James Weldon Johnson Renovation" signs, including the section adjacent to the library, and there's some fairly significant work going on.

I know there's a few million set aside for renovations, but I haven't seen or heard of any final plans.

[simms3]

Well I hope they replace the obelisk + statue with an exact replica of someone deemed "ok" by today's standards, and fast, or replace with something equally beautiful, and monumental.

I will puke all over Lenny Curry's desk if they replace it with contemporary art/"art in public places" crap.  I don't know the guy's history, really didn't know who it was before all the hoopla, but because they made these changes the way they did, I will always still call it "Hemming Plaza".  JWJ has his own park being built in LaVilla and I think it's shaping up to be quite cool.

Who wants to place bets on when the administration comes for the Andrew Jackson statue in the middle of a weekend night?  He would be considered the devil by today's woke standards.  We should rename our city as well, I suppose.

[Jax_Developer]

Anyone know what's going on?

I know they took out the pedestal for the confederate monument over the weekend, but most of the park is blocked off this morning with "James Weldon Johnson Renovation" signs, including the section adjacent to the library, and there's some fairly significant work going on.

I know there's a few million set aside for renovations, but I haven't seen or heard of any final plans.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/05/14/remains-of-a-confederate-monument-removed-from-jacksonville-city-park/70216009007/

Nothing so far.. still some parties in debate it seems about it.

[thelakelander]

Anyone know what's going on?

I know they took out the pedestal for the confederate monument over the weekend, but most of the park is blocked off this morning with "James Weldon Johnson Renovation" signs, including the section adjacent to the library, and there's some fairly significant work going on.

I know there's a few million set aside for renovations, but I haven't seen or heard of any final plans.

I know Walter Hood has been hired to redesign the park. However, that process hasn't been completed, so I have no idea why its being fenced off this early.

[Ken_FSU]

Aside from a walkthrough through the middle, the majority of the park is closed off for "COJ's JWJ Renovation Project."

Library side:



Courthouse side:



Certainly hope this doesn't end up like the Friendship Park fiasco, where a perfectly good, serviceable park is closed prematurely while the city twiddles its thumbs for years about next steps.

[Ken_FSU]

Well I hope they replace the obelisk + statue with an exact replica of someone deemed "ok" by today's standards, and fast, or replace with something equally beautiful, and monumental.

I will puke all over Lenny Curry's desk if they replace it with contemporary art/"art in public places" crap.  I don't know the guy's history, really didn't know who it was before all the hoopla, but because they made these changes the way they did, I will always still call it "Hemming Plaza".  JWJ has his own park being built in LaVilla and I think it's shaping up to be quite cool.

Who wants to place bets on when the administration comes for the Andrew Jackson statue in the middle of a weekend night?  He would be considered the devil by today's woke standards.  We should rename our city as well, I suppose.

To me, you kind of need to take these things on a case-by-base basis, accounting for their context.

In this specific case, it feels fairly common sense that a statue clearly celebrating the Confederacy has no business being the centerpiece of a public plaza opening up to City Hall and the Federal Courthouse.

Would you want to be a minority walking into court or into a City Council meeting beneath a monument celebrating "Our Heroes" who fought to maintain slavery, with a message to them saying "Your Glory Shall not be Forgotten."

Sends the totally wrong signal that the city implicitly supports Confederate ideals, and as Ennis has pointed out over the years, doesn't even do a great job matching the true historical context of Jacksonville.

Where it does belong is in a museum, alongside the full context.

In terms of potential replacements, I would absolutely love something like the Wichita lunch counter/sit-in statue, commemorating Ax Handle Saturday. Would love a Jake Godbold statue too.

[thelakelander]

^That's a pretty cool sculpture. With JWJ Park, the real JWJ would roll over in his grave to think that we'd named this space after him.  It will be interesting to see what they do here. I just hope that it doesn't take away from LaVilla's place in history and LEVS Park itself.

[thelakelander]

Furthermore, I'd hope as a part of the redesign, we'd invest a significant part of this time redesigning the outer square. No matter what is done with this park, it won't achieve a great level of vibrancy until it is reintegrated with the surrounding land uses and closed off storefronts (now being used for ground level office space).

[Ken_FSU]

^That's a pretty cool sculpture.

What I love about it is that it's interactive and sparks important conversation.

Instead of just passively looking up at something, the statue invites you (and your friends/family) to sit down at the empty stools and put yourself into the shoes of those participating in the sit-in.

Lots of really powerful historic imagery from Jax sit-ins that could be used.





Speaking strictly about this specific statue, I don't think it's a coincidence that one of the ugliest, most shameful days in city history took place under the same statue.





Nor do I think it's coincidence that - despite being front-page news in the New York Times and getting significant coverage in the LA Times and Life Magazine - a city proudly bearing a Confederate statute in front of its courthouse and city hall would bury coverage of the story locally and fail to meaningfully bring anyone to justice for the atrocities.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/history/2020/08/21/ax-handle-saturday-front-page-news-new-york-times-but-not-times-union/5620461002/

Does Jacksonville need to be renamed? Of course not.

Is it overly "woke" to suggest that maybe such a statue is in conflict with what we want to be as a city and the true inclusion and equity we want to provide to all citizens? I don't buy that.

Common sense on this one.

[thelakelander]

^The park is a good place to commemorate 1960s civil rights history. Moreso that than JWJ. Probably the most direct link to JWJ and that park is his dad once being employed at the hotel overlooking the park. But not sold that memorializing servitude is the way to go.

[Ken_FSU]

Per park staff, they're doing some fairly significant renovations to the fountains over the next two weeks.

Which would seem to suggest that the fountains are staying in the redesign?

[iMarvin]

Who wants to place bets on when the administration comes for the Andrew Jackson statue in the middle of a weekend night?  He would be considered the devil by today's woke standards.  We should rename our city as well, I suppose.

Both of these should happen. Immediately.

And no, I'm not joking.

[Ken_FSU]

We should rename our city as well, I suppose.

[This] should happen. Immediately.

And no, I'm not joking.

To me, the meaning and power of language has the ability to evolve far beyond its original etymology. Yes, the city was named after Andrew Jackson. But if you say "Jacksonville, Florida" to 100 random people on the streets, what's the first image that pops to mind? The second? The third? The hundredth? I virtually guarantee it's not the man that the city was arbitrarily named after 201 years ago. Collectively, the word "Jacksonville" has established its own meaning and identity over the centuries, far outside of Andrew Jackson, to the point that - besides in the history books - the namesake and the city are almost completely divorced. It's like an Atomic Fireball. What kid pops an atomic fireball in their mouth and thinks, "man, it feels wrong to eat this cinnamon candy because the product was launched in the 1950s in the wake of the bombing of Hiroshima?" Should the candy be renamed? Probably. But its developed its own identity divorced from the etymology.

In the same way, in a perfect world, would the city be named after a dude who has such a shithead to Native Americans? Of course not. But is it worth flushing 201 years of collective identity and history as a city down the drain to correct something that maybe 1% of the population even actively thinks about on an annual basis? I'd argue that's like curing a common cold with an atomic weapon.

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, 13 years later, our city hasn't even figured out how to properly renamed FCCJ. The absolutely colossal undertaking that would be involved to change every street sign, postal address, letterhead, school and public facility name, etc. would set us back 20 years. From a budget perspective, it would make jail relocation seem cheap.

All that said, in regards to the statue, that's a different thing. You see the statue, you immediately think of Andrew Jackson. It has no other meaning. It's a statue celebrating Andrew Jackson. That one is much more open to debate, in my opinion.

[Des]

I think it wouldn't be too difficult to rename Jacksonville to Jax. If you write 'Jax, FL' on a letter, it will still be sent to Jacksonville. Businesses could still be named after Jacksonville, similar to how businesses name themselves Cowford. 'Jax' is far enough from 'Jacksonville' that it would appease people who don't like the name, yet close enough for a smooth transition. I've also met people from all over the country who recognize the region as 'Jax', especially truckers, pilots, and friends who work in logistics.

My only problem with the name 'Jacksonville' is that there are around 20 other Jacksonvilles in the county. In my opinion, it's not worth the effort, but I believe it's doable.

[simms3]

Who wants to place bets on when the administration comes for the Andrew Jackson statue in the middle of a weekend night?  He would be considered the devil by today's woke standards.  We should rename our city as well, I suppose.

Both of these should happen. Immediately.

And no, I'm not joking.

I know your type exists and is growing rapidly in numbers.  Nothing is outrageous, considered hyperbole, or off the table anymore, which is why those of us opposed to your viewpoints should be just as vocal as y'all are.

Whatever the city does, it should be a vote.  The way Lenny did his thing by mandate and in the dead of night was just not cool.  The way they handled the renaming of Lee High to Riverside High was actually a very good and fair process.  It's hard to dispute an outcome forever and ever if it is handled well and the actual constituents are consulted.

Removing things and renaming prominent things in the "heat of the mob" moment without letting a conversation happen just creates bitterness and cynism (as if there isn't already enough).  It doesn't "heal wounds" but rather creates new ones or deepens existing ones.

The people that scream the loudest about being offended today don't provide any evidence that they wouldn't have been part of the mob on the wrong side of history in prior generations.  There's a lack of knowledge of history and a lack of deep thinking that exists with today's outrage mentality. We shouldn't ever reward this mentality or inferior culture we have going today with rash decisions, but instead should be even more guarded against making rash decisions, really beckoning rational and reasonable conversation (of all sides) instead.