Author Topic: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected  (Read 22114 times)

heights unknown

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2023, 10:30:50 AM »
Hell no to sticking the jail in LaVilla! That would be super racist, discriminatory, shortsighted and economically foolish of Jax to stick a jail in LaVilla. May as well hang confederate flag banners down Bay Street from I-95 to TIAA Bank Field lol. LaVilla's cultural significance is one of the special things that the DT core has. We can't replicate it anywhere else but we can focus on it and maximize it. If we have that type of money to spend, there's a lot more we can do with it to make LaVilla an economi.c powerhouse and a national example for positive inclusive and equitable revitalization and economy development.
LOLOL...calm down. I see your point; but IMO, as someone who grew up in Lavilla (817 West Duval Street), I view it as racist razing that entire area, blocking off Ashley like they did, etc., get my drift? So since they uprooted black history and replaced it with nothing, then I don't see any harm in putting a jail in LaVilla;to this day I see no vision that THEY HAVE for LaVilla...at all; however Lakelander, I feel you Bro. I was just wondering. IMO they should have built affordable housing in LaVilla (even if predominantly black) after razing all of the shotgun houses and two story 1900 boarding houses (in which it was needed at the time but there was virtually no plan or vision for LaVilla once that was done). Just my opinion rather than razing the history of such a rich black area without even a vision of what should go there (raze it, abandon it, vacate it and they will come).
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thelakelander

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2023, 11:43:53 AM »
Lol I'm not pissed. Just cutting straight to the point of why putting the jail in LaVilla is a straight non-starter. Given the history, the city would rightfully be ridiculed into shame nationally.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2023, 11:55:08 AM »
Regarding moving the jail, it seems like another bad,  shortsighted, and inefficient idea to seriously vet without first having a real plan and funding for why and what we'd be removing it for...or for DT in general. Go out and talk to 10 different people about what they'd like to see on the jail property, Snyder Memorial, the COJ parking lots off APR, mOSH when it moves, etc. and you're likely to get ten different visions or wants. Even in this thread, some advocate selling off the land to developers and other mention a convention center, which is another couple hundred thousand public expenditure. In essence,  we're still flying by the seat of our pants with all of this stuff.
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heights unknown

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2023, 12:09:54 PM »
Lol I'm not pissed. Just cutting straight to the point of why putting the jail in LaVilla is a straight non-starter. Given the history, the city would rightfully be ridiculed into shame nationally.
Again, see your point. I didn't say you were pissed, just asked you to calm down. It's all good. I do see where you're going Bro. Thanks.
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thelakelander

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2023, 12:24:40 PM »
I'm pretty relaxed and laid back too!  I'm enjoying the conversation.  I just, in a relaxing manner, typed straight to the point of what would go down there.
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thelakelander

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2023, 12:27:33 PM »
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.

To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."

Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.

Nobody has done or really considered that, with the impact on employment. For a long time, we tend to throw things against the wall and hope they stick with DT planning and revitalization.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Jax_Developer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2023, 02:58:08 PM »
None of these conversations really matter unless someone can get $2 psf rents for apartments and increase retail lease rates by a significant percentage.

That's doable in quite a few places around town, but you can also build cheaper outside of DT.

thelakelander

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2023, 03:03:16 PM »
They all matter, from a quality of life perspective, even if not one large scale mixed use building gets built as a result.
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Jax_Developer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2023, 04:59:41 PM »
I really couldn't disagree more. With the amount of city funds being directed towards DT, there has to be a viable economic outcome of it all. Adaptive reuse only goes so far. Considering our city still has the quantity of septic it does, and the lack of funding for similar infrastructure, the insanely low ROI isn't justifiable on a city scale.

heights unknown

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2023, 07:41:51 PM »
I really couldn't disagree more. With the amount of city funds being directed towards DT, there has to be a viable economic outcome of it all. Adaptive reuse only goes so far. Considering our city still has the quantity of septic it does, and the lack of funding for similar infrastructure, the insanely low ROI isn't justifiable on a city scale.
A lot of money is being thrown out, with unequal ROI as you iterated. Maybe a few residential 50 story talls will help? (LOL...I know what y'all are thinking about me). Just hope we don't go bankrupt at some point, however, I think we have some pretty smart fiscal beenies in City Hall that might ensure, if they properly use their noggin, that that doesn't happen.
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heights unknown

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2023, 07:46:11 PM »
I'm pretty relaxed and laid back too!  I'm enjoying the conversation.  I just, in a relaxing manner, typed straight to the point of what would go down there.
Awesome Lake. Just to let you know, I've learned quite a lot from you since joining this forum in 2009; for that, thank you, and have also learned from others. My Field is Administrative and Social Service (Management), so, I've learned a lot and what I've learned does apply and correlate to my field of expertise, especially if I want to solidly move from virtual to brick and mortar in an urban setting.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2023, 07:48:08 PM by heights unknown »
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thelakelander

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2023, 11:14:58 PM »
I really couldn't disagree more. With the amount of city funds being directed towards DT, there has to be a viable economic outcome of it all. Adaptive reuse only goes so far. Considering our city still has the quantity of septic it does, and the lack of funding for similar infrastructure, the insanely low ROI isn't justifiable on a city scale.

Adaptive reuse is a viable economic outcome. Quality parks, streetscapes, public spaces, etc. are viable quality of life improvements for residents. Vacant storefronts filled with businesses is viable economic development.  Filling up vacant office space is economic development. These are investments that do lead to the infill development you care about. I can't think of many places that skipped these steps of public investment to reach the point you want to see.

With all of that said, we can't be foolish with our downtown decision making and expect positive change, no matter how much money is invested. The demolition of the Landing is a great example of foolish spending. Spend hundreds of millions to move the jail based on wishes of economic development would be another dumb expenditure. I'm really hopeful that we'll do better with the new administration and new people on boards and some critical COJ staff positions.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2023, 11:41:06 PM by thelakelander »
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Jax_Developer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2023, 08:56:26 AM »
1). If the goal of the downtown revitalization efforts are to complete adaptive reuse projects & spice things up a bit, then the sheer % of funds devoted to DT is literally a crime to the rest of Jacksonville. This is because:

- Downtowns should be filled out and “used” not 30%+ vacant & parking lots (or whatever that absurd figure is)
- Jacksonville is basically the only large, growing, city DT’s where pure New Construction does not pencil out (other cities deal with tear down & higher density) showing a huge lack of demand
- Jacksonville is basically last in the country on (expensive) flood infrastructure relative to the threat, has some of the most septic tanks in the country, and has some of the worst walkability scores.. in the country. Almost impressive.

2). You can’t make the argument that anything less than 60-70% of DT is completely non-functional.. I challenge someone to remove the Southbank & Brooklyn from these “downtown goals” and see what the story really looks like.

- Virtually 0 private sector jobs outside of a handful of 70% occupied office towers in 60%+ of DT
- Virtually 0 retail other than basic food options accounting for a majority of downtown retail

Just ending with adaptive reuse is like running a 100m and only going 50m. New construction is what will revitalize DT. Jacksonville is not some unique market that is going to break major economic hurdles “just because” or “history.” No matter how it is framed, the absolute goal of the absurd amount of funds going towards downtown is to support the eventual market for new construction. Anything less is legitimately a crime to the rest of the city.

I respect your opinion on things but the $$ here is reaching levels that I’m surprised anyone could support without the goal of supporting new construction downtown. It’s the #1 economic indicator of a growing city. Goto a crap & dead downtown and it will influence people’s perception on doing business there and/or visiting. We are known as the city that couldn’t properly host a superbowl by many still. Our DT gets railed a lot by plp outside from Jax. That’s kinda absurd when you think about it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2023, 09:04:37 AM by Jax_Developer »

thelakelander

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2023, 09:35:30 AM »
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

The goal of revitalization is vibrancy and a better QOL for residents. It's all encompassing and not an either or for adaptive reuse, infill development, achieving certain lease rates, etc.

Nevertheless, we're not going to get anywhere if we aren't willing to invest in ourselves and the basics. This is a core reason for downtown's struggles, despite the billions spent for revitalization since the 1960s.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2023, 09:43:00 AM by thelakelander »
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Jax_Developer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2023, 09:09:47 AM »
The goal of revitalization is vibrancy and a better QOL for residents. It's all encompassing and not an either or for adaptive reuse, infill development, achieving certain lease rates, etc.

I think this is where I am tripped up. If we only are able to make the economics work for adaptive reuse, or only able to make it to New Construction with insane incentives, then I think it is safe to say that the city failed its objectives, again. If Apple founded a new technology, but spent 75% of their operating funds to do so, you better hope they are selling trillions of that product otherwise we know what would happen. Jacksonville in particular has too many dead parcels.. We also know that building up city infrastructure does help the overall city's tax base. There really are some known items at play here that I guess the city is putting aside(?)

To me, the goals the DIA & City have should be to make new construction projects economically viable.. and whatever needs to be done to make that happen should.. I still haven't heard anyone explain why virtually every direction you go from our Central Core has higher real estate values and lease rates. I do have one pretty good reason tho.. aka why these talks are likely circulating again. The decade long efforts of the downtown incentives have not yielded rosy results.

Nashville Metro - 2.04M
Jacksonville Metro - 1.68M
Salt Lake City - 1.27M

From basically any list, Jacksonville is top 10 in growth. So were these cities.. The gap that has developed is ever widening.

https://nashvilledowntown.com/economic-development/development-map

https://downtownslc.org/building-downtown/development-projects

Both cities giving minimal incentives, and only for big big projects like Amazon in DT Nashville.