Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected

[Captain Zissou]

The Berkman is an amazing comparison, due to it being the location of the old jail, and for it being an almost 1:1 product compared to those units in the Peninsula. In my job, these types of 1:1 comparisons are extremely hard to come by in such an immediate area. The value of the Berkman is not something to fix, rather it is the result of failed economic policy.

Even without the jail, Berkman is not a comp for the Peninsula.  If you've spent enough time in the buildings you'd know this. San Marco Place is a better comp for Berkman.

[DrQue]

Berkman and the Peninsula aren’t really great comps. The Berkman was developed as apartments four years before the Peninsula was built as high end condos. One has high ceilings, tall windows etc. and one is a condo conversion with small windows, dated common areas etc. Location plays a role in value discrepancies, but one product is just plainly superior to the other. Late night noise from the elbow and the moonscape of contaminated shipyards to the East are bigger drags on Berkman value than the jail.

[Jax_Developer]

Was the Berkman not the site of the older, smaller, jail? And pretty sure there has been one jail in Jacksonville's past at this location or within 1-2 blocks of it for several decades before this one. So, saying 3x years is a little inaccurate. Also, most commercial buildings are designed for 30-40 year life cycles. So, not really that wild to say one is "coming soon" in the next 10 years.

I understand there are some differences between the two, but that does not justify the immense pricing difference. I could counter right back and say the Berkman has more amenities.. And slightly larger units. Also there's more in common with them than not. And AGAIN ITS IN THE CENTRAL CORE. What is so hard to understand in that 95% of other US cities have THE most valuable real estate is in their Central Core? Manhattan vs. Brooklyn is the most glaringly obvious example of the pattern. Literally you have to try and find a counter example.

At this point, nothing will change y'all's mind about it. Keep poking holes in what I say instead of providing any value to the conversation. So I'm done discussing it.

Still have yet to see any links that support having massive Downtown jails.
Still have yet to provide a monetary figure on thousands of violent crimes that have occurred DT that didn't need to.
Still have yet to disprove basic economics as well as basic urban planning principals.

Incredible to me really. I guess everything I learned with my degree is meaningless here in Jacksonville.

[tufsu1]

But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.

The detention center at 7th & Arch Streets in Center City Philadelphia would suggest otherwise - that's just one example....there are many more in downtowns around the country

[thelakelander]

Still have yet to see any links that support having massive Downtown jails.
Still have yet to provide a monetary figure on thousands of violent crimes that have occurred DT that didn't need to.

I'm simply not understanding the infatuation with the jail and Berkman, and why spending a minimum of $400 million to relocate it should be the high downtown revitalization strategy. If the sentiment is there will be no revitalization in downtown, as long as the jail is there, I don't agree. If saying this is the best use of spending $400 million in public money, then I don't agree. I could care less about Berkman's values compared to the Peninsula.

Still have yet to disprove basic economics as well as basic urban planning principals.

I do understand basic urban planning principals. Just not how moving the jail outweighs them.

[Jax_Developer]

But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.

The detention center at 7th & Arch Streets in Center City Philadelphia would suggest otherwise - that's just one example....there are many more in downtowns around the country

Well actually, you just further proved my point. I just looked it up, had no background on the site. Go ahead and search for food around the site. There's a 2-3 block buffer with a dive bar or two being the only exception. Try to find a single Fortune 500 business within 5 blocks. You won't. The site is also located in a city services district, further supporting my claim of the "buffer" that does exist to jails. There are adjacent surface lots... Oh & look, a university literally right next door, I'm sure that Temple has had no increased crime due to the proximity of a jail.

You know, there's a jail in Manhattan too... You would be shocked to find out that they happen to be located in lower valued neighborhoods. Almost like a jail wouldn't go over too well in Tribeca, FIDI or the UES. I wonder why.

See here in Jacksonville, we like to put our jail right smack dab in the only night life district we have DT as well as the highest potential earning district in all of JAX proper. Do any of y'all even go out there?  I do. It's not as rosy and fun to be around as you may think. Just like I'm sure the students at Temple feel a little uncomfortable being around a jail. (Accounts from actual Temple students).

Still have yet to see any links that support having massive Downtown jails.
Still have yet to provide a monetary figure on thousands of violent crimes that have occurred DT that didn't need to.

I'm simply not understanding the infatuation with the jail and Berkman, and why spending a minimum of $400 million to relocate it should be the high downtown revitalization strategy. If the sentiment is there will be no revitalization in downtown, as long as the jail is there, I don't agree. If saying this is the best use of spending $400 million in public money, then I don't agree. I could care less about Berkman's values compared to the Peninsula.

Still have yet to disprove basic economics as well as basic urban planning principals.

I do understand basic urban planning principals. Just not how moving the jail outweighs them.

You are not reading what I'm typing then. The Berkman is the best economic indicator of the Jail's terrible effect DT. I have no infatuation with the Berkman. Luckily in Real Estate, numbers don't lie. And although we have some newly minted realtors here, I do have my license and I do actively buy/sell in this market. I think, just maybe, I know a little bit about real estate. Ignoring the Berkman demonstrates that the blinders that are on the other side of this opinion. It's literally the ONLY new building since the jail was built. So yeah lets ignore the only project from that instead of learn from it.

[thelakelander]

You are not reading what I'm typing then. The Berkman is the best economic indicator of the Jail's terrible effect DT.

So this is the reason you believe spending a minimum of $400 million to move the jail should be the top downtown revitalization priority?

I have no infatuation with the Berkman. Luckily in Real Estate, numbers don't lie. And although we have some newly minted realtors here, I do have my license and I do actively buy/sell in this market. I think, just maybe, I know a little bit about real estate. Ignoring the Berkman demonstrates that the blinders that are on the other side of this opinion. It's literally the ONLY new building since the jail was built. So yeah lets ignore the only project from that instead of learn from it.

Are familiar with the history of Berkman II and the Shipyards site since its closure? You believe that history changes if the jail were not there? How did the jail lead to the Trilegacy debacle?

[marcuscnelson]

I don't think there's any disagreement here that a scenario in which we can move the jail is probably better for the surrounding area and downtown overall in some way. But that's an opinion in a vacuum.

What's being disagreed on is that spending hundreds of millions of mostly (but probably all) public dollars to move the jail as soon as possible and potentially hundreds of millions more to incentivize or construct projects to go on the resulting grass lot (because we know the city's current intention is to build a convention center there) is the best, highest, most prudent, and most efficient use of limited public funds right now. As others have said, that's money that could be used on any variety of other projects both in downtown and far beyond it. It's not a question of virtue, it's a question of priority. Sure, moving the jail would have a benefit, but is it the most important thing we need to do right now? I'm not particularly confident it is.

[landfall]

Always said Bay St can and should be Jax party street and removing the jail helps. Its in in totally the wrong place in 2023 with the likes of the Court having now moved and the Landing demolished.

[marcuscnelson]

Always said Bay St can and should be Jax party street and removing the jail helps. Its in in totally the wrong place in 2023 with the likes of the Court having now moved and the Landing demolished.

If anything, the story of the courthouse move is a great example of why being careful about the prospect of moving the jail is a good idea.

We spent $350 million building a massive new courthouse complex elsewhere (while sacrificing generational investment in other important things) and millions more on the demolition of the old one because getting it off the riverfront ASAP was just so important, plus millions more to redo adjacent infrastructure at Coastline Drive (think Hart Ramps) only for the grass lot that was left behind to still be just that years later.

[Ken_FSU]

I think we're also forgetting that moving the jail and police HQ to the Northside doesn't just move inmates.

It moves hundreds upon hundreds of civilian employees who are out there right now supporting the restaurants, stores, and bars downtown.

Police officers, administrators, clerical workers, guards.

Walk into Superfood, 7-11, the Brick, Jimmy Johns, etc. at any given time during the week and you're just as likely to be in line behind a police officer as you are a businessman.

There's got to be 15 businesses offering bonds within two blocks of the prison alone.

Just like the demolition of the Landing didn't just involve removing a structure, but 30 small businesses adding vibrancy to the CBD, moving the prison doesn't happen in a vacuum either. You don't just end up with a grass lot for a decade, but with a massive chunk of the downtown workforce and numerous small supporting businesses sent packing to the Northside.

You can't even call it a zero sum game.

It's spending more than half a billion dollars to leave downtown business worse off than it was before.

[thelakelander]

Always said Bay St can and should be Jax party street and removing the jail helps. Its in in totally the wrong place in 2023 with the likes of the Court having now moved and the Landing demolished.

If anything, the story of the courthouse move is a great example of why being careful about the prospect of moving the jail is a good idea.

We spent $350 million building a massive new courthouse complex elsewhere (while sacrificing generational investment in other important things) and millions more on the demolition of the old one because getting it off the riverfront ASAP was just so important, plus millions more to redo adjacent infrastructure at Coastline Drive (think Hart Ramps) only for the grass lot that was left behind to still be just that years later.

To add to this, how much income has the city made off selling these vacant lots to developers? Most of the redevelopment projects require the land to be given away and millions more in incentives. We would have been better off just selling or giving away the vacant buildings.

[BridgeTroll]

My bet is you're not the only person on this site who thinks that...

Incredible to me really. I guess everything I learned with my degree is meaningless here in Jacksonville.

[jaxlongtimer]

Here is one way to break this deadlock ...

Ask the voters to decide if they want to blow $400 million on the U2C or $400 million on moving the jail or "none of the above." 

[jcjohnpaint]

I believe we voted for this in the past and JTA decided to go their own way regardless of the turnout.