Author Topic: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected  (Read 24997 times)

jaxlongtimer

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I don't believe Shad Khan is the mastermind before the idea of moving the jail and building a convention center there. Demoing the Hart Bridge and opening up access to the stadium and Metropolitan Park makes sense (if the goal is to develop around the stadium). We just screwed it up by not knocking the entire thing down.

Not saying he is the mastermind, but if he benefits, he is no fool and will act as a significant catalyst, as he did for the Hart Bridge ramp, to get it done, if anyone can.  If not for Khan's "input," the Hart Bridge ramp would still be standing.  That's all.

Jax_Developer

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Honestly, I was going to elaborate, but I'd rather not. I'm confident that another more impactful property DT can't be named.

There's a very singular reason for the Berkman being worth 50% less per sf than the Peninsula. No politician made that happen.

fsu813

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The jail really is past its adequacy. Not just a talking point. Whomever is mayor will have to begin to address it sometime in their first term, one way or another. It can't remain as is for another 5+ years without some type of change initiated, whether that's moving & building new, expanding, etc. I'm sure there are less expensive bandaids than moving & building new, but that doesn't seem like the best solution long term.

jaxlongtimer

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The jail really is past its adequacy. Not just a talking point. Whomever is mayor will have to begin to address it sometime in their first term, one way or another. It can't remain as is for another 5+ years without some type of change initiated, whether that's moving & building new, expanding, etc. I'm sure there are less expensive bandaids than moving & building new, but that doesn't seem like the best solution long term.

Out of curiosity, aside from complaints about its current location, why is it inadequate?  Too small? Not secure?  Huge inefficiencies? If it needs renovations, are they disproportional compared to moving?

Is there some important synergy to having the jail next to JSO HQ's and near the courthouse?  Where do other cities locate their jails?  Far from Downtown - like Davis is suggesting moving to the pea farm?

Other than its location, I don't recall a big outcry for moving the jail so just trying to understand what other operational (not real estate) reasons might justify moving it.

thelakelander

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Honestly, I was going to elaborate, but I'd rather not. I'm confident that another more impactful property DT can't be named.

There's a very singular reason for the Berkman being worth 50% less per sf than the Peninsula. No politician made that happen.

I'm confident that there's no such thing as a one trick pony when it comes to urban development and redevelopment. You could flood $600 to $700 million in public money into multiple parks, infill and adaptive reuse projects in the Northbank and completely turn all of downtown around  within a fraction of the time, than funneling that type of money into any single site. History has proven this over and over again all over the country. Especially in DT Jax. This jail stuff is dream. Spend hundreds of millions to move it and the only conversation coming is how things won't work until we figure out how to move Maxwell House. In the meantime,  James Weldon Johnson Park will still be run down and surrounded by a bunch of publicly owned buildings with dead storefronts. State and Union will still be a raggedy gateway from I-95, anchored by a Shell gas station where all the social ills of poverty and addiction come to the forefront. At some point, we still need to address the basics, which tend to be much lower hanging fruit.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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There's also several reasons, very systemic and generational, why property values in the Southbank/San Marco area are higher than Berkman/Cathedral District/Springfield/Eastside/old industrial district.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2023, 09:11:43 AM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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I don't believe Shad Khan is the mastermind before the idea of moving the jail and building a convention center there. Demoing the Hart Bridge and opening up access to the stadium and Metropolitan Park makes sense (if the goal is to develop around the stadium). We just screwed it up by not knocking the entire thing down.

Not saying he is the mastermind, but if he benefits, he is no fool and will act as a significant catalyst, as he did for the Hart Bridge ramp, to get it done, if anyone can.  If not for Khan's "input," the Hart Bridge ramp would still be standing.  That's all.

Khan and the Jags specifically pushed for the demolition of the Hart Bridge ramp. There's no Four Seasons or Lot J (yeah, it's coming back) and probably no Jags long term either, if that didn't happen. The jail is apples and oranges in comparison. The moving the jail thing is something I've heard in downtown circles for years for well over a decade.

Much of that sentiment has come from people who have relied on public money for their own personal benefit. Over the course of my time in Jax, I've come to the conclusion that "downtown revitalization" can also be a buzzword for a lot of nonsense to tap into public money and that there are those who use it as a personal ATM machine. Easily makes me have more respect for the potato farmer with a third grade education that hustles, makes money and survives without the reliance of political play and suckling the public teat.

I say all of this to say, I don't believe this has anything as much to do with the Jags and Khan as the removal of the Hart Bridge ramp in front of the stadium did. My fear is the silly belief that moving the jail should and is a top priority for downtown revitalization. That's going to end up costing taxpayers +$700 million (i.e. you still have to subsidize whatever replaces it) and another generation lost of focus, only to live through another economic cycle of tons of money spent and nothing to show for it (outside of those pocketing the public money spent).

Whatever decision is made around the jail, don't let that siphon money needed for projects and investments that really tilt the revitalization needed moving forward. Spend $700 million. Just make sure that $700 million isn't being taken away from downtown's true needs.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Jax_Developer

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I understand your perspective, but the catalyst of everything mentioned is the jail. The reason the area surrounding the JAGS is so depressed is because it's separated from the DT. You can literally go in any direction.. Southbank, towards Springfield, Brooklyn, LaVilla.. all of those area's have had or are vibrant areas today in comparison to that long stretch of land near the jail. Goto any other city with a DT sports complex, I guarantee you won't find any environment like JAX. It's truly one of a kind.

https://investdtjax.com/tools-resources/development-map/

There is literally a three block by five block area of emptiness. The Southbank being nice, Brooklyn being nice today, are not random and happened because there was enough of a buffer from a jail to stir investment. All the big residential buildings on the Southbank are less than 20-25 years old. There should be no reason (other than the jail) for the Southbank being valued 50% more than the Northbank today. In standard DT's, the "central core" is the most expensive real estate in town. No fortune 500 business is setting up shop next to a jail in Jacksonville. No developer is building condos, or apartments near a jail in Jacksonville. You can see this exact trend all up & down the east coast. Baltimore has great articles on how much sheer opportunity has been wasted. The same is true here. It is decades long. It's so deep that other issues have become seemingly the "issue" when the "issue" is the lack of local interest & outside investment. But of course, not in the Southbank or Brooklyn or even in the main central core area, only in this subregion of DT. Everywhere else seems to have activity & redevelopment, except near the Jail. The Jail has city-funded projects and 5-10 year long RFP's in the hopes something changes. Because, "the numbers don't work."

Relating an infrastructure project to this is a little cheese but nonetheless I would also say a functional transit system would likely have a larger impact than removing the jail. But, we don't have a functional transit system & we have a flawed plan. So it's hard to say that it would actually be better in its current form. Why did they need to remove that ramp? I can flip the question right back. Other cities have overpass ramps in urban areas with plenty of vibrancy to come with it. Could it be due to the jail being right there? I'd also argue the "crime" with the landing probably had something to do with a jail being 3 blocks away.

At the end of the day, companies & firms are not willing to take the risk in this large swath of DT. This isn't a question, it's a fact by what exists there now. Other firms investing in the central core & sports district are thinking one of the following:

1). We should take incentives to significantly reduce our risk. And if it all works out, we will really make out.
2). We strongly believe the jail will be gone in 5-10 years time.
3). The project works, but it would be even better with the removal of the jail.

But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.

Charles Hunter

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You keep asserting that crime is higher in the immediate vicinity of the jail and police station. The time has come to provide some data to back up your claim. Numbers. Not anecdotes. Not feelings of downtown, or non-downtown, residents. Numbers.

iMarvin

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I understand your perspective, but the catalyst of everything mentioned is the jail. The reason the area surrounding the JAGS is so depressed is because it's separated from the DT. You can literally go in any direction.. Southbank, towards Springfield, Brooklyn, LaVilla.. all of those area's have had or are vibrant areas today in comparison to that long stretch of land near the jail. Goto any other city with a DT sports complex, I guarantee you won't find any environment like JAX. It's truly one of a kind.

https://investdtjax.com/tools-resources/development-map/

There is literally a three block by five block area of emptiness. The Southbank being nice, Brooklyn being nice today, are not random and happened because there was enough of a buffer from a jail to stir investment. All the big residential buildings on the Southbank are less than 20-25 years old. There should be no reason (other than the jail) for the Southbank being valued 50% more than the Northbank today. In standard DT's, the "central core" is the most expensive real estate in town. No fortune 500 business is setting up shop next to a jail in Jacksonville. No developer is building condos, or apartments near a jail in Jacksonville. You can see this exact trend all up & down the east coast. Baltimore has great articles on how much sheer opportunity has been wasted. The same is true here. It is decades long. It's so deep that other issues have become seemingly the "issue" when the "issue" is the lack of local interest & outside investment. But of course, not in the Southbank or Brooklyn or even in the main central core area, only in this subregion of DT. Everywhere else seems to have activity & redevelopment, except near the Jail. The Jail has city-funded projects and 5-10 year long RFP's in the hopes something changes. Because, "the numbers don't work."

Relating an infrastructure project to this is a little cheese but nonetheless I would also say a functional transit system would likely have a larger impact than removing the jail. But, we don't have a functional transit system & we have a flawed plan. So it's hard to say that it would actually be better in its current form. Why did they need to remove that ramp? I can flip the question right back. Other cities have overpass ramps in urban areas with plenty of vibrancy to come with it. Could it be due to the jail being right there? I'd also argue the "crime" with the landing probably had something to do with a jail being 3 blocks away.

At the end of the day, companies & firms are not willing to take the risk in this large swath of DT. This isn't a question, it's a fact by what exists there now. Other firms investing in the central core & sports district are thinking one of the following:

1). We should take incentives to significantly reduce our risk. And if it all works out, we will really make out.
2). We strongly believe the jail will be gone in 5-10 years time.
3). The project works, but it would be even better with the removal of the jail.

But again, 95% of companies will literally not build or put together a site within X distance of a jail or prison.

There are empty lots all over the Northbank, Southbank, Lavilla, and Brooklyn... why not focus on developing those areas instead?

thelakelander

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I understand your perspective, but the catalyst of everything mentioned is the jail. The reason the area surrounding the JAGS is so depressed is because it's separated from the DT.

I'm only coming at this from the perspective of downtown revitalization. Not investing to fill gaps between downtown and other neighborhoods (yes, the Sports District is a completely different neighborhood historically).

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You can literally go in any direction.. Southbank, towards Springfield, Brooklyn, LaVilla.. all of those area's have had or are vibrant areas today in comparison to that long stretch of land near the jail. Goto any other city with a DT sports complex, I guarantee you won't find any environment like JAX. It's truly one of a kind.


It is truly one of a kind. I can't think of many urban sports districts with so much surface parking and underutilized vacant lots. However, there's a reason for this. We ripped apart redlined urban neighborhood to create it. Over time, we need to infill what was destroyed. As we infill, there are things we can apply from cities as small as Green Bay, to those as large as San Francisco. Infill of so much moonscape won't happen overnight. We should definitely support it but ensure that it does not become the primary focus of downtown revitalization, at the expense of revitalization of the actual downtown core itself. 

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There is literally a three block by five block area of emptiness. The Southbank being nice, Brooklyn being nice today, are not random and happened because there was enough of a buffer from a jail to stir investment.

Any idea why infill development continues to sprout up around Broward County Jail? It has great waterfront frontage along the New River, there's a nice urban Publix across the street and its neighbors are some of the tallest luxury condos and apartment towers built in a Florida CBD (excluding Downtown Miami).

Now back to East Bay Street. Of course there is a stretch of emptiness. We had shipyard that consumed that entire stretch since the civil war. We also took out a few blocks of warehouses to build the jail. Thank god for Maxwell House still surviving, paying good wages and contributing to the tax base (and we have people who want that gone for condos, lol). We should not overlook and excuse our mistakes by blaming the jail's location. COJ has owned the shipyards for 20 years and done nothing with it. Its okay to admit that we have pooped the bed with tax money on East Bay Street. We'll be better off moving forward by learning from our mistakes.

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All the big residential buildings on the Southbank are less than 20-25 years old. There should be no reason (other than the jail) for the Southbank being valued 50% more than the Northbank today.

This ignores the legacy of redlining on the Northbank, the presence of San Marco and the fact that East Bay Street has historically been an industrial district. It also ignores the reality that the Broward County Jail has not stopped development in Fort Lauderdale. I'm not claiming the Duval County Jail is the Taj Mahal, but it isn't the reason Jacksonville has struggled to revitalize downtown. Urban history, development and redevelopment is way more complex than a single issue or site.

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In standard DT's, the "central core" is the most expensive real estate in town. No fortune 500 business is setting up shop next to a jail in Jacksonville. No developer is building condos, or apartments near a jail in Jacksonville. You can see this exact trend all up & down the east coast. Baltimore has great articles on how much sheer opportunity has been wasted. The same is true here. It is decades long. It's so deep that other issues have become seemingly the "issue" when the "issue" is the lack of local interest & outside investment. But of course, not in the Southbank or Brooklyn or even in the main central core area, only in this subregion of DT. Everywhere else seems to have activity & redevelopment, except near the Jail. The Jail has city-funded projects and 5-10 year long RFP's in the hopes something changes. Because, "the numbers don't work."

Developers are building condo towers across the street from the Broward County Jail. However, I don't understand why the jail is such of a focus. The actual downtown core could use a large infusion of public dollars. From the Landing's grave and James Weldon Johnson Park to the Laura Trio and activating vacant properties and storefronts. If we have $400 to $700 million in public money to invest, dumping that type of capital into the actual core would completely turn it around in less than five years.

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Relating an infrastructure project to this is a little cheese but nonetheless I would also say a functional transit system would likely have a larger impact than removing the jail. But, we don't have a functional transit system & we have a flawed plan. So it's hard to say that it would actually be better in its current form.

Planning downtown revitalization around moving the jail is just as flawed as JTA's U2C plan.

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Why did they need to remove that ramp? I can flip the question right back. Other cities have overpass ramps in urban areas with plenty of vibrancy to come with it. Could it be due to the jail being right there? I'd also argue the "crime" with the landing probably had something to do with a jail being 3 blocks away.

How does this theory hold up with the Broward County Jail in the heart of Downtown Ft. Lauderdale?

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At the end of the day, companies & firms are not willing to take the risk in this large swath of DT. This isn't a question, it's a fact by what exists there now.

Why is the jail the focus? Perhaps that $400 million to move the jail would be better off spent being divided up to assist multiple deals in the core of downtown.

"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Charles Hunter

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At the downtown library today,  there was a LitChat with Tim Gilmore interviewing Wayne Wood to support Wayne's updated Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage. One of the points Wayne made was that the Laura Trio must be saved, and supported the recent increase in the developer's ask for city funds.

thelakelander

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^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.
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Jax_Developer

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Broward County jail is not apples to apples. Hence why I brought up Baltimore. Broward County Jail is not in the central district, nor does it disprove most of what I said. Ft. Lauderdale also has prices that are 200-300% of that in Jacksonville. Baltimore is actually comparable due to the property values of city, size of the city, and the type of city it is.

Broward County jail has a price effect of almost a 40-50% depression compared to properties literally less than 0.25 miles away across the River. If anything, that example only adds to my argument. Also take a look around the Jail, other than a Publix and a subway, its a franchise-less area of DT Ft Lauderdale. That's nuts if you think about it.

It will only be a matter of time, before that site is sold, and they clean up that entire area. Same is true for Jax. Same is true for Baltimore. Really.. look up Baltimore's prison and the news about relocating that prison has been around for 20 years.

Same with JAX actually, and the talking points I hear today are echoed in this JAX Daily article from 2002.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2002/oct/16/future-jail-its-debatable/

For a prison built in 1991, after 16 years of planning.. for it to have this level of criticism 11 years later is not a coincidence.

I digress, but this isn't a talking point and it should never be treated as such. It's a dis-service to the dozens of projects nearby and the billions of cumulative funds that have been poured into this area leaving half the city on septic with no sidewalks. And "supporting" projects that frankly are robbing the taxpayers of Jacksonville. The trio included.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 09:36:26 AM by Jax_Developer »

Jax_Developer

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^Even it is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost to turn the jail into an empty lot.

The jail being an empty lot would ironically increase the property values of everything nearby. Can't say that about any other property in town.