Author Topic: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected  (Read 22227 times)

Jax_Developer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2023, 04:23:08 PM »
This sounds a lot less "hair on fire" than Davis' promise to make it a first-term priority. Planning ahead and getting a good grasp on what the cost could be seems prudent. A range of $250 million to $750 million is so ambiguous as to render even high-level strategic conversations meaningless.

Idea:

Cruiseships.

It worked for guests of Super Bowl XXXIX, it could work for guests of the Sheriff.

Haha! I like this idea..

I do agree that $250M seems light.. I think a Police HQ DT can be required as a part of the RFP package. So to some degree this cost can be mitigated creatively. Not to mention the sale of the site is pretty likely in the 8-figures. I don't think the JAX jail will require a $750M tag however for a few reasons. They need to build out more than up.

I'd rather see this special tax district that Khan wants, or the existing downtown fund, contribute funds towards this eventual move. I've been an advocate of a plan at least, so that other projects can also "plan" around the eventual move.

It would be really sorry to have the city invest all that $$$ in the sports district, and the central core, to leave the Jail sitting where it is. The local business environment should want to support its relocation too...

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2023, 05:28:55 PM »
If you consider the multiple contiguous blocks occupied by City Hall, the Federal and County Courthouses, the District Attorney offices, JEA HQ's, Ed Ball City Office Building and related parking garages and vacant properties as one master "government complex", it may make sense to add a high rise jail and JSO HQ's on a block contiguous to these blocks or converted from one of their parking lots.  Government buildings, being security conscious, guarantee dead street space for anyone other than those on government business so a jail likely can't do much more harm to that area in terms of development.

Add that the current jail was located at its current spot, in part, due to its proximity to the old courthouse.  As such, a new one near the current courthouse would make sense too.

marcuscnelson

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2023, 06:01:25 PM »
^ Can't imagine that happening. For whatever silly reason people seem to have decided that downtown's condition can be blamed on the jail being there, so having the new jail anywhere near downtown is almost certainly out of the question. Already it seems that the consensus is focused on exiling it to the far north of town.

Police building might make sense there though, I dunno.
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jcjohnpaint

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2023, 06:26:14 PM »
By the time we get the numbers on the stadium, I don't think anyone is going to have a desire to move the jail for what it will cost.

heights unknown

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2023, 09:30:26 PM »
This sounds a lot less "hair on fire" than Davis' promise to make it a first-term priority. Planning ahead and getting a good grasp on what the cost could be seems prudent. A range of $250 million to $750 million is so ambiguous as to render even high-level strategic conversations meaningless.

Idea:

Cruiseships.

It worked for guests of Super Bowl XXXIX, it could work for guests of the Sheriff.

Haha! I like this idea..

I do agree that $250M seems light.. I think a Police HQ DT can be required as a part of the RFP package. So to some degree this cost can be mitigated creatively. Not to mention the sale of the site is pretty likely in the 8-figures. I don't think the JAX jail will require a $750M tag however for a few reasons. They need to build out more than up.

I'd rather see this special tax district that Khan wants, or the existing downtown fund, contribute funds towards this eventual move. I've been an advocate of a plan at least, so that other projects can also "plan" around the eventual move.

It would be really sorry to have the city invest all that $$$ in the sports district, and the central core, to leave the Jail sitting where it is. The local business environment should want to support its relocation too...
If I'm not mistaken, it was the current Sheriff that came up with that very premature number and cost. I don't know as much as most of you in this forum know about this type subject, but I'm smart enough to know that you can't build a Jail for 250 mil; can't be done unless you build it with match sticks reinforced with steel (maybe). Land, relocation, development costs, construction costs, etc., and I could go on. Shows how much he knows. I think someone whispered in his ear, "just tell them 250 million, they'll believe it."
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heights unknown

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2023, 09:40:20 PM »
There's still some vacant lots in the old LaVilla area (western area) near the expressway (I-95); what are you all's opinion on building the new Jail in that area? Not close to the convention center but north of Adams and west of Davis Street between Monroe and Ashley in LaVilla.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2023, 10:14:54 PM »
^ After all the work Ennis has put into championing LaVilla, I would be surprised if he and others vested in that area would be thrilled with that idea  8).

If and when the jail is relocated, no matter where in the county they look at, I fully expect NIMBY pushback.  That's why I thought the "government complex" was a good possibility as few would be around to object.

Jax_Developer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2023, 06:52:43 AM »
By the time we get the numbers on the stadium, I don't think anyone is going to have a desire to move the jail for what it will cost.

You might be right on that.

There's still some vacant lots in the old LaVilla area (western area) near the expressway (I-95); what are you all's opinion on building the new Jail in that area? Not close to the convention center but north of Adams and west of Davis Street between Monroe and Ashley in LaVilla.

I think placing it in LaVilla is somewhat relocating the issue. It would heavily hamper new development in the area which LaVilla desperately needs because of the high % of vacant lots/buildings there.

The transport costs of the inmates can be heavily mitigated with a small pre-trial center and a police HQ downtown. More importantly though is the fact that the economic benefit of having these parcels be tax generators will far outweigh the public cost of such transportation. If the annual cost is $5M to make it simple, the city would need to replace the site with something valued at $250M ish to compensate with just property taxes alone. On about 11 acres I think that's possible.

Not to cause a riot but there are some assumptions that can be made based upon consumer behavior as well..

1). The tax base of surrounding parcels "should" go up a LOT (maybe even $100M+)
2). The DT might actually be able to attract new business (I bet JaxChamber has 'some' issues with this item)
3). Increased sales tax revenue

All of these should be analyzed in the cost-benefit analysis. Again I don't know of any asset DT that actively devalues property around it. Maybe some people feel the Maxwell House does but I personally like the aesthetic and ode to the industrial past.

--

Hinds County (Jackson, MS) is doing this now.. expanding a really rural site with really no other viable use. Their DT has a small police HQ and detention center.

thelakelander

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2023, 06:56:52 AM »
Hell no to sticking the jail in LaVilla! That would be super racist, discriminatory, shortsighted and economically foolish of Jax to stick a jail in LaVilla. May as well hang confederate flag banners down Bay Street from I-95 to TIAA Bank Field lol. LaVilla's cultural significance is one of the special things that the DT core has. We can't replicate it anywhere else but we can focus on it and maximize it. If we have that type of money to spend, there's a lot more we can do with it to make LaVilla an economic powerhouse and a national example for positive inclusive and equitable revitalization and economy development.
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Steve

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2023, 08:46:53 AM »
^I'd agree. That seems worse than the current location. If you're going to move it all of 1/2 mile, just leave it where it is.

acme54321

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2023, 09:18:32 AM »
If the jail moves it should go out in the boonies, maybe the north end of CCC surrounded by trees and bound in by highways where no one has to see it. Buy a bus and shuttle prisoners back and forth to town as needed, it's a straight shot down I-10.  JTA already has a bus route that runs out there, when released they get a bus pass and can ride wherever they want in town.

I rode my bike through there yesterday, that whole area north of the jail is a hot mess.  Trashed, homeless camps everywhere, not a great scene.  Until the jail, Community Transition Center (aka more jail) Sulzbacher, and those ramps to a lesser extent are gone I dont see it getting better.  It's a definite impediment to connecting the DT core and what's going on in the sports district.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2023, 10:08:31 AM by acme54321 »

Ken_FSU

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2023, 09:40:38 AM »
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.

To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."

Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.

Steve

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2023, 09:53:26 AM »
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.

To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."

Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.

Playing Devil's Advocate: If you replace the Jail with a Convention Center, that would replace a lot of the people that could eat out.

With all of that said, I'm not sure this is the best Convention Center site and moving the Jail should be a "now" thing.

Jax_Developer

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2023, 10:11:31 AM »
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.

To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."

Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.

Here is a better way to look at this. Most urban downtown cores have job concentrations of 200-300 per acre. Jacksonville is at 22-23. Even if you exclude LaVilla's entire land mass, it is still below 50. The overall depression of companies operating DT (right next to our central core) has caused quite the effect and I am not claiming that is all the jail's fault. Now though, it is a different story and it doesn't sound like I'm alone in that thinking. 10-15 acres should net a good amount of jobs on its own.

With the jail being relocated, some auxiliary businesses would still remain due to the proximity they have to the courthouse also.. but imagine having an actually somewhat functioning DT. Even if we got the DT job concentration back up to 50-ish, that's tens of thousands of added jobs. Jax has so much vacant SF DT that is really doing nothing. Removing the jail will impact jobs downtown positively.. I don't know of any Fortune 500 business that is expanding next to jails/prisons. Right now DT is a tax net negative for the city, and with developers asking for basically 1:1 (or worse LOL) incentive packages, it really makes you wonder why they are so gung-ho with incentives and not looking at the causes for why we need these crap packages and/or have projects that can't meet underwriting requirements.

Ken_FSU

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Re: Daniel Davis wants to relocate the jail in his first term, if elected
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2023, 10:20:15 AM »
Would be curious to know - between the jail, police headquarters, bond shops, and law offices - how many jobs are currently supported by having the jail in its present location. That's gotta be part of the conversation. You take the jail out of downtown, you're also taking a LOT of workers as well who would otherwise be supporting businesses at Lot J, a food hall at Shipyards West, existing establishments like Intuition and Manifest, etc. Remove that workforce, and it might take 20 years to get them back.

To me, almost everything in terms of dealing with the homeless and problem citizens comes down to the old William H. Whyte quote: "The best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make public spaces desirable for everyone else."

Focus on creating the best district you possibly can for the public, and it won't matter what's next door. The people will come, and they'll outnumber the "undesirables" by magnitudes.

Playing Devil's Advocate: If you replace the Jail with a Convention Center, that would replace a lot of the people that could eat out.

With all of that said, I'm not sure this is the best Convention Center site and moving the Jail should be a "now" thing.

Reverse devil's advocate says the road to hell is paved with good intentions and Jacksonville's boulevard of broken downtown dreams over the last 60 years with downtown is filled with similar of examples of if we remove ________________ from the urban core, we can add _________________.  Problem is, we always remove, and then the thing fails to materialize in a reasonable timeframe. The Landing. River City Brewing. The Old Courthouse and Annex. The neighborhood of LaVilla. The historic Greyhound station. Welcome to Rockville. We're a city that's been fixing a fountain for four years.

Lack of developable land in downtown Jacksonville isn't the problem. Surplus of undeveloped land is. Just given our track record, in almost all cases, I'd favor keeping what's currently there and infilling around it, rather than continuing to play the shell game.

I do think, in a perfect world, a convention center on that property makes a lot of sense. I just wouldn't want to see anything removed until 5 minutes before the convention center is ready to break ground and all funding is in place, otherwise, it's just going to be another hole in the urban landscape for 20 years.