Retail-less parking garage proposed for downtown

[Jax_Developer]

Right but retail space there doesn’t underwrite well. Add on top the vacancy in the area and lack of dwellings nearby. Makes it tough to justify, not saying impossible.

[athomasson86]

If there is enough demand for parking to justify this much parking, then there should be demand for ground level retail, and it shouldn't be tough to justify.

[thelakelander]

Right but retail space there doesn’t underwrite well. Add on top the vacancy in the area and lack of dwellings nearby. Makes it tough to justify, not saying impossible.

There’s several ways to tackle the issue downtown. We hand out incentives for various projects like candy. This could also be as simple as something like a shipping container kiosk for a coffee operator or something along those lines. That slots in perfectly into the plan in that spot currently showing some exercise equipment and space for people to hang out in. For the SunTrust (now Vystar) garage, we were successful in gaining a setback along Hogan for future retail. That space is now used by food trucks, which I'd argue is a form of retail activation. I believe VyStar is considering building out the retail space.

[Jax_Developer]

Right but retail space there doesn’t underwrite well. Add on top the vacancy in the area and lack of dwellings nearby. Makes it tough to justify, not saying impossible.

There’s several ways to tackle the issue downtown. We hand out incentives for various projects like candy. This could also be as simple as something like a shipping container kiosk for a coffee operator or something along those lines. That slots in perfectly into the plan in that spot currently showing some exercise equipment and space for people to hang out in. For the SunTrust (now Vystar) garage, we were successful in gaining a setback along Hogan for future retail. That space is now used by food trucks, which I'd argue is a form of retail activation. I believe VyStar is considering building out the retail space.

There are certainly ways to make it happen. No doubt. Incentives or cheaper alternatives can activate the space. But the question I was addressing was why would the developer not include first-floor retail on their plans. For that I am saying it is rather simple.. There is 4.5M sf of retail space DT (which is shocking IMO) and the most recent market report had the Northbank trading near a 7 CAP. There is 7% vacancy for all northbank retail as defined by an NAI hallmark Q4 report. Those factors blow up "normal" retail returns given the NNN rate here is $15-16 per year. That compares to $22-23 psf city-wide. I'm not sure you could build-out these "normal" spaces for the cost that they trade for ($160psf). Hence the lack of them in the plan. I HOPE there is retail or a plan required at the end of the day.

[thelakelander]

No doubt the downtown market isn't anywhere close to where it could be. Retail, office, hotel, residential, skyline, etc. are all impacted. One of my biggest pet peeves with DT is that there are simple solutions to fix things. Unfortunately, we waste time and money on big ticket dreams (i.e. moving the jail, etc.) instead of tackling them. The TIAA Bank Building and Enterprise Center are two great examples. Ground floor retail space that still can't be seen from the street, leaving those spaces totally dependent on those office towers being filled. It's not 1980 anymore. Charter, Independent Life, Barnett Bank, Florida National Bank, etc. aren't coming back. Time to flip those spaces to face the street and create opportunities for businesses to also serve people who don't work inside these buildings. Although not as sexy as new infill or a slick rendering, this is an example of the low hanging fruit that helps to improve the DT market.

[Ken_FSU]

Approved unanimously 

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/13/conceptual-designs-for-west-bay-street-garage-expansion-approved/

[thelakelander]

Did anyone here attend today? I wonder what the retail discussion involved, along with what the future inclusion of retail may be?

[Steve]

I got on late unfortunately, and missed this one. Yea, that comment is curious.

[acme54321]

I love that future inclusion of retail these people throw in therelike it's going to ever actually happen.

that said, of all the sites downtown this is one where I'm not too bent on retail being included.  It's isolated in between the skyway, existing garage, and the blank side of the IRS building and the rest of the surroundings are surface lots.  I'm not sure what kind of business would actually survive there by itself in the current situation downtown.

I'm also kind of interested if this is potentially part of something bigger.  They also own the large surface lots to the south and NW of this garage so there may be more to this than meets the eye.  Not that their track record would be any indication of that though.

[jcjohnpaint]

Not much there now, but what about the future? What concerns me is the lack of acknowledgement that it could have had retail.

[marcuscnelson]

I love that future inclusion of retail these people throw in therelike it's going to ever actually happen.

that said, of all the sites downtown this is one where I'm not too bent on retail being included.  It's isolated in between the skyway, existing garage, and the blank side of the IRS building and the rest of the surroundings are surface lots.  I'm not sure what kind of business would actually survive there by itself in the current situation downtown.

I'm also kind of interested if this is potentially part of something bigger.  They also own the large surface lots to the south and NW of this garage so there may be more to this than meets the eye.  Not that their track record would be any indication of that though.

I don't particularly understand how more parking makes business sense here, but I suppose there is promise in the adjacent lots. But I do wish we'd see how that would actually work. If this is some bigger redevelopment we should be able to look at that holistically.

[thelakelander]

It's cheaper to add to an existing garage instead of building one from scratch. It also creates more flexibility for the surrounding buildings and properties. It's very easy to see why the owner would propose such a use for this particular parking lot.

[Jax_Developer]

Possible future skyscraper site next door when the time is right too. I wonder how "big" it will be with this sized parking lot attached.

[fieldafm]

Terribly basic question from a guy who knows very little about garage construction:

Why, absent immense public pressure, is it such a tough sell for a developer to add some shell retail bays to the ground floor of a parking garage?

Is it as simple as the developer believes they'll make more money long-term leasing that XXXsf to cars than they would leasing to retail tenants?

Is it inherently more difficult/complex/expensive to include retails slots in a garage?

Using the VyStar Garage ($22 million price tag) as an example, would that have magically been a $17 million garage absent retail?

Just curious what the gap looks like, and why these garage developers have to be dragged kicking and screaming toward ground-floor retail slots.

It is more expensive.   For one, the fire code is different. The entire garage needs to be fully sprinkled if ground floor retail is included.  Additionally, the height of the first floor needs to generally be higher to properly include retail- a standard parking garage has lower floor heights, and subsequently a lower cost per floor.  Further, when you underwrite the financing of such a structure... the ground floor retail is basically not factored into your proforma's cash flow... meaning you are essentially 'losing out' on square footage with which you could generate revenue from. 

Regardless of the expense, that's not to say that ground floor retail shouldn't be included within a parking garage which fronts a primary street, just like what is talked about in this editorial.  Primary streets shouldn't be littered with cheap crap that doesn't enhance the public realm.  Otherwise, you experience a lifetime of dead space.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/brooklyn-projects-show-need-to-define-primary-streets/

For instance, this monstrosity replaced several historic theater buildings because at one point in the 1970s, JEA and COJ decided that they might build something there and knocked down this entire block, which was eventually replaced by a horrible parking deck that greets people as they enter Downtown off the Main Street Bridge.  This was around before I was born, and I don't see if being replaced in my lifetime.

[HeartofFlorida]

Dumb, just dumb.  Any development that get's rid of surface parking in the CBD is a good thing.  However, I'm shocked that an established city the size of Jacksonville doesn't have certain downtown standards baked into land development codes to prevent a project like this.  I could fully understand if this was a garage with retail above.  I could even understand if this was a stand-alone garage just outside DT with the intent on provided adequate parking while patrons used transit to get into the CBD.  However, I will NEVER understand why premium space is wasted on something like this.