World Golf Hall of Fame closing in St. Augustine to move back to North Carolina

[thelakelander]

Wow, didn't see this one coming...

The World Golf Hall of Fame in St. Augustine will close in 2023 and relocate to Pinehurst, North Carolina, the United States Golf Association announced July 20.

Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/world-golf-hall-of-fame-closing-in-st-augustine-to-move-back-to-north-carolina

[marcuscnelson]

Seems like a pretty gaping hole for that area. Not sure how useful the space would be for much else. Also bad for all the surrounding development: the Renaissance hotel & convention space, the IMAX theater, heck the courses themselves? The USGA just skipping town as soon as legally possible just seems like a bad sign.

[thelakelander]

Definitely seems like a bad sign. That general development always has seemed to struggle. Hard to imagine a bright future with the anchor abandoning ship. Time for a complete makeover.

[pierre]

Doesn’t feel like a huge surprise. It never really seemed to be much of a draw, even when it first opened. Someone is going to have to get creative with that space.

[marcuscnelson]

Doesn’t feel like a huge surprise. It never really seemed to be much of a draw, even when it first opened. Someone is going to have to get creative with that space.

Turns out “someone” is St. Johns County, which owns at least the land that the USGA was leasing. The county also owns the land where the hotel and convention space sit. The World Golf Foundation owns the parking lots around the central lake, while WGV Commercial LLC owns the individual retail buildings. Honors Golf owns the courses and then St. Johns Northwest Masters Association owns the surrounding property that aren’t houses or condos or apartments or the Westminster place. Quite a few property owners involved.

Although, if all these groups can come together around doing something else it could be nice. Has easy highway access, plenty of schools nearby, Costco across the street. As long as they don’t lose the amenities they already have and aren’t afraid of going big someone will probably build on it.

[JaxJersey-licious]

I thought I'd be torn about this decision given that I lived around the area in Mill Creek for a bit during WGV's early years, but I totally understand the move. When it opened, golf was a much more popular sport thanks to Tiger Woods and gated golf communities were springing up all over NE Florida so it made sense for the county to provide incentives and build the infrastructure to make this happen. Unfortunately, even with its convenient and easy-access location; the big reduction of big-time events held there, the PGA moving their media and production facilities to Ponte Vedra Beach, declining corporate sponsorship, the declining interest of a younger generation watching and playing golf, and the PGA leadership's waning promotion and support does not warrant maintaining a museum of such size and stature. It certainly does not help it's cause when the PGA announced this year the long-delayed induction of its most famous golfer to their Hall Of Fame, they had the ceremony NOT in the Hall Of Fame he was being inducted in.

But this interesting fact really proved the viability of a project like this: Since the time the World Golf Hall of Fame started construction up to now, St. Augustine, just 15 or so miles down the road, has seen an increase of over a million yearly visitors! And yet all those visitors still couldn't keep the Hall of Fame's attendance from cratering. What makes you think any other location for something like this would be that more successful?

At least the county got a new convention center, highway interchange, and a hotel resort worthy enough for the World Champion New England Patriots to stay in during their Super Bowl appearance in Jax. A more scaled down version will probably never be bonkers successful, but hopefully a lot more manageable.

It was nice while it lasted. Now see it before it's gone!

[jaxlongtimer]

I read the State was subsidizing this to the tune of $50 million and it had been identified as one of the worst uses of State money ever based on low attendance.  Its move has been rumored ever since the PGA Tour declined to extend its lease past 2023.  It was just a matter of where it was going to move to.

The PGA Tour noted that interest in Hall of Fames has changed over the years, as well.  I take this as interest and/or attendance has been on the wane, generally.  With the internet and NFT's today, not sure what the urgency is to seeing one of these .  And, I wonder if young people really care about anything that isn't virtual.

[thelakelander]

The World Golf Village opened more than 24 years ago at what was believed to be a strategic spot by I-95, with a three-day festival that included parties, cover bands, fireworks, the induction of Nick Faldo and Johnny Miller into the Hall of Fame and the challenge in a commercial by charter member Gary Player: "for the love of golf, you've got to go."

Not enough have.

The World Golf Foundation announced on Wednesday that the Hall of Fame and Museum building, which has more than 35,000 square feet of exhibit space, will close by the end of 2023, apparently a victim of dwindling attendance that saw visitation drop from around 280,000 at its peak to 60,000 last year.

https://www.staugustine.com/story/sports/golf/2022/07/20/st-augustine-based-world-golf-hall-fame-museum-close-2023/10090332002/

[Todd_Parker]

Too bad the place couldn’t hold on until that Buc-ee’s/Costco convergence took hold. Hopefully the Imax stays. That is a unique place to watch feature films.

[CityLife]

It was doomed from the start. The type of person that would visit the World Golf Hall of Fame would typically be a flyer, not someone driving down 95. Despite having the Players and PGA Tour HQ, Jax is not even close to being one of the most popular golf areas in Florida. There are around 1250 courses in Florida and only about 70 in the entire Greater Jacksonville Area (includes Palm Coast). There are 160 courses alone in Palm Beach County and Orlando has a ton of courses too. The Jax area only has 3 courses in the state top 50 and another 4 between 50-100. Most people that visit or live in Florida to golf do not even drive by the WGV or live anywhere close to it.

The other big issue is that the courses at the WGV simply aren't very good and are way overpriced. Neither course is in Golf Digest's Top 45 courses in Florida list and in another list, The King and Bear is ranked the #98 course and Slammer and Squire is unranked. I'm going to Streamsong this weekend (a resort that has stolen the WGV's lunch money) and it has 3 of the top 10 courses in Florida. I'm playing the #5 and #7 courses in the entire state for less than the unranked Slammer and Squire.

Despite what  Jax Jerseylicious posted, golf as a sport is doing very well. Bad courses in bad developments are and have been struggling for a long time, but good to great courses are shattering their yearly round records. The failure of the WGV has nothing to do with golf's (non-existent) decline and everything to do with a poor location and poor execution.

[jaxjaguar]

County leads need to look no further than Orlando's Baldwin Park for what to do with this space... Fill in some of the parking with condos and apartments, add a grocery store, convert a store into a drug store, and the rest will fill in naturally. This could turn into a major tax stream if they do it right, due to it's ease of access and nearby amenities.

[vicupstate]

I read the State was subsidizing this to the tune of $50 million and it had been identified as one of the worst uses of State money ever based on low attendance. 

WOW!! i assume most of that is the Convention Center?  How big is it?

[jaxlongtimer]

I read the State was subsidizing this to the tune of $50 million and it had been identified as one of the worst uses of State money ever based on low attendance. 

WOW!! i assume most of that is the Convention Center?  How big is it?

Here is some more info via the Jacksonville Business Journal (emphasis added):

....PGA Tour Commissioner Jay Monahan alluded to the facility's potential relocation during a press conference in March. At the time, Monahan said the organization was committed to the World Golf Hall of Fame through 2023, when the Hall of Fame's lease for the land on which it sits expires. But after that, Monahan said then, “we're looking at all of our options as we go forward."

"The business of the Hall of Fame and the way that people consume hall of fames has changed, and we just want to make certain that any decision that we make about the next 25 years maximizes our ability to showcase the incredible careers and impact that every single member that's in the Hall of Fame has had on our game," Monahan said in March.

The World Golf Hall of Fame has drawn the ire of some Floridians in recent years as attendance has waned.

An examination by the Florida Policy Institute called the state's commitment to $50 million in subsidies for the facility “one of the worst public investments” compared to other sports-related programs that also received subsidies and estimated that Florida taxpayers lose an average of 8 cents on every dollar invested in the facility, JBJ previously reported....

....The Hall of Fame is separate from the Renaissance Hotel, the St. Johns Country Convention Center and the golf courses at the St. Johns County site. While the World Golf Foundation owns the Hall of Fame building, the county owns the land, which the foundation leases....

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2022/07/20/world-golf-hall-of-fame-pinehurst.html

[marcuscnelson]

Unfortunately, even with its convenient and easy-access location; the big reduction of big-time events held there, the PGA moving their media and production facilities to Ponte Vedra Beach, declining corporate sponsorship, the declining interest of a younger generation watching and playing golf, and the PGA leadership's waning promotion and support does not warrant maintaining a museum of such size and stature. It certainly does not help it's cause when the PGA announced this year the long-delayed induction of its most famous golfer to their Hall Of Fame, they had the ceremony NOT in the Hall Of Fame he was being inducted in.

As CityLife pointed out, the sport itself still seems to be doing pretty well. They’re relocating this museum to a brand new facility in North Carolina, new golf course communities are still being constructed, the Players fills up every year, the PGA Tour just moved into a brand new headquarters designed by Norman Foster. Clearly a lot of money is still moving around somehow.

It was doomed from the start. The type of person that would visit the World Golf Hall of Fame would typically be a flyer, not someone driving down 95. Despite having the Players and PGA Tour HQ, Jax is not even close to being one of the most popular golf areas in Florida. There are around 1250 courses in Florida and only about 70 in the entire Greater Jacksonville Area (includes Palm Coast). There are 160 courses alone in Palm Beach County and Orlando has a ton of courses too. The Jax area only has 3 courses in the state top 50 and another 4 between 50-100. Most people that visit or live in Florida to golf do not even drive by the WGV or live anywhere close to it.

Yeah, seems like the combo of not being convenient enough to drive to from JAX and the potential driver not likely to care is a pretty badly-planned mistake.

The other big issue is that the courses at the WGV simply aren't very good and are way overpriced. Neither course is in Golf Digest's Top 45 courses in Florida list and in another list, The King and Bear is ranked the #98 course and Slammer and Squire is unranked. I'm going to Streamsong this weekend (a resort that has stolen the WGV's lunch money) and it has 3 of the top 10 courses in Florida. I'm playing the #5 and #7 courses in the entire state for less than the unranked Slammer and Squire.

I wonder if they’d actually shut the courses down with the museum or just keep trying to run them. Knowing how badly the site plan has performed (worked with an org that considered getting retail/office space in the complex, site access was a big factor for declining), and seeing the housing market here, it seems like the returns would be a lot bigger to just get rid of the whole thing and rebrand entirely. Sure, you’ll lose like, the Caddyshack but odds are that’s going anyway.

I don’t think the county is creative enough to push for it, but some rethinking of the meager transit services in that area could enable ditching the parking minimums and really maximizing land use. Hardest part might be managing the complaints from the few people who did move there for golf but that is manageable.

[marcuscnelson]

I read the State was subsidizing this to the tune of $50 million and it had been identified as one of the worst uses of State money ever based on low attendance. 

WOW!! i assume most of that is the Convention Center?  How big is it?

The hotel’s website calls it “the largest convention center between Atlanta and Orlando,” though I’m not sure how they calculate that, made up of a large (26k sq ft) ballroom, small (7k sq ft) ballroom, other meeting rooms and some outdoor space. It all comes out to about 45,000 square feet.