Author Topic: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic  (Read 1264 times)

BridgeTroll

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Take off your red or blue hat and read this outstanding essay...  8)

https://quillette.com/2022/07/06/dear-americans-your-politics-dont-have-to-be-this-insane/
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

marcuscnelson

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2022, 04:44:36 PM »
This seems like quite a long essay to ultimately conclude “we should try to do a third party, but it’ll be different this time somehow.

Personally, I’m of the opinion that we’ve arrived at a point where many of the problems our government is not addressing are either effectively existential to those it affects, or are truly a matter of someone being correct and someone else being incorrect. Simply searching for whatever the “middle” position might be doesn’t actually offer a solution. There’s no “middle” position to whether climate change is real, either it is and you have to do something or it isn’t and you don’t. One of those is the wrong answer. There’s no “middle” position to whether people are allowed to present as their gender identity or acknowledge their sexual orientation or not, either they can or you’re putting barriers to that. Either we should build our country around driving everywhere or we shouldn’t. This isn’t to say that every issue is black or white in full, but that many of the ones that motivate people to vote are, and this author’s idea of the middle isn’t likely to be aligned with that.

Now, I certainly agree that the two-party system clearly does not work in terms of addressing the problems that affect everyday Americans, but I’m not sure this essay succeeds in making the case that people are genuinely willing to push for the changes required for a multiparty system. The poll cited notes that “about half” of those polled chose one of the existing parties, meaning the remaining half is split between three parties, which in FPTP would mean that the equivalent of the Democrats or Republicans would ultimately win the election anyway. The American voter is often an enigma, and assuming that people would actually vote for “America Together” is unfortunately a laughable assumption. Being an independent voice within a party doesn’t at all guarantee that such success would be repeated as a tiny separate party with no real value beyond “not those two other guys.” There’d be no guarantee of the four senators mentioned not collapsing into infighting. And this part in particular:

Quote
And if it were able to convince just 10 senators from either party—for instance, the 20 senators who voiced initial support for the new, bipartisan gun safety bill—it would be able to furnish either of the two parties with a filibuster-proof majority.

Seems awfully unrealistic. If “just 10 senators” was an easy thing to get then things would look very different right now. It took the second instance in ten years of a dozen children being shot to death to get the votes for the gun safety bill, and with a great deal of teeth removal. Are we supposed to just wait for a tragedy of that level every time we want to hope moderation will succeed? Can we even afford to wait that long?
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

BridgeTroll

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2022, 07:25:53 AM »
For me it is a issue of choices... and right now neither party speaks for me... at all.  I  see both parties as extremist and unable to even consider compromise as a step forward.  You provide a list of "uncompromisable" positions that reasonable people could in fact find compromise.  Abortion and gun control are two more issues that reasonable people could find compromise... non partisan polling data shows this to be the case...

The middle position or third party congress people can wield considerable power when you consider the 50/50 congresses we have seen in the past 30 years and their inability to compromise... the 5 or 6 swing voters are the ones holding the power to pass or not pass legislation.

There is an ever growing number of people like me that have abandoned the two parties and are willing to look at alternatives... there are moderate positions to be had... our current system doesn't encourage them...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

vicupstate

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2022, 08:54:26 AM »
Our system of government is structurally built to all but eliminate any chance for a third party to get any level of support. It would take significant changes to modify that scenario, all of which would make the the two parties weaker, and those parties would have to be onboard with the changes.

Given what transpired on and before January 6th, 2021, the Republican party should be thoroughly repudiated across the majority of states in the next election. In all likelihood, that won't happen. Our culture has devolved into tribalism and that has nearly eliminated any means to fix our very broken political system.     

 
"The problem with quotes on the internet is you can never be certain they're authentic." - Abraham Lincoln

BridgeTroll

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2022, 09:11:24 AM »
Our system of government is structurally built to all but eliminate any chance for a third party to get any level of support. It would take significant changes to modify that scenario, all of which would make the the two parties weaker, and those parties would have to be onboard with the changes.

Given what transpired on and before January 6th, 2021, the Republican party should be thoroughly repudiated across the majority of states in the next election. In all likelihood, that won't happen. Our culture has devolved into tribalism and that has nearly eliminated any means to fix our very broken political system.     

 

So nothing can be done. That's the gist of the last two posters... it's either my way or nothing?  Seems a very fatalistic way to think...

Meanwhile... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/fbi-and-mi5-team-up-to-warn-of-the-risks-of-chinese-hackers-and-spies-07072022044542.html
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

vicupstate

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2022, 12:58:18 PM »
The Republican party arose only because of the demise of the Whig party. Only the demise of the Republican party will break the current logjam.  Obviously a new party would fill that void. If the Democratic Party dies, it means Authoritarians via the GOP now control the government.   
"The problem with quotes on the internet is you can never be certain they're authentic." - Abraham Lincoln

BridgeTroll

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2022, 02:58:38 PM »
Both parties can go away... let's start over...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2022, 06:16:24 PM »
For me it is a issue of choices... and right now neither party speaks for me... at all.  I  see both parties as extremist and unable to even consider compromise as a step forward.  You provide a list of "uncompromisable" positions that reasonable people could in fact find compromise.  Abortion and gun control are two more issues that reasonable people could find compromise... non partisan polling data shows this to be the case...

The middle position or third party congress people can wield considerable power when you consider the 50/50 congresses we have seen in the past 30 years and their inability to compromise... the 5 or 6 swing voters are the ones holding the power to pass or not pass legislation.

There is an ever growing number of people like me that have abandoned the two parties and are willing to look at alternatives... there are moderate positions to be had... our current system doesn't encourage them...

Bridgetroll, we agree on this!  If you did a bell curve, moderates would dominate both the right and left extremes/wings.  But, moderates aren't as motivated to vote in our gerrymandered primaries so the extremes get to move their candidates forward.  If a moderate party is created, this has to change too.  Given the rising number of registered independents/NPA's, it would seem there is fertile ground for a third party to plow.  Just need financing and organization... the tough parts.

If those who fund the Red and Blue parties who are actually moderates, just accepting the lesser of evils, redirected their resources to the middle we would be well on our way to a third party.

Historically, in a Congress like we have now, independent/NPA senators have, at times, had greatly disproportional influence over the entire Senate.  Just look at how only one Senator, Manchin (effectively an independent), has controlled almost every outcome on major issues in the last 1 1/2 years.  Imagine even 5 to 10 Senators representing the middle.  Both the left and the right would be stymied if they each had from 49 to 45 seats vs. the 50 each they have now.

BridgeTroll

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2022, 08:06:54 AM »
The Republican party arose only because of the demise of the Whig party.   

Well that... and to free the country from Democrat supported slavery...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

vicupstate

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2022, 08:36:21 AM »
There will be no viable third party in US politics.  One party supported and continues to support  the overthrow of a free and fair election. All the reason you need to vote top to bottom for its opposition. America must chose whether it wants Democracy or Fascism. If the GOP is defeated soundly enough, it will fractionalize as the Whigs did after 1852 and a new party could rise from the ashes. That is the most likely and easiest way to change our trajectory of division and extremism, which if not addressed will led to our demise.       
"The problem with quotes on the internet is you can never be certain they're authentic." - Abraham Lincoln

vicupstate

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2022, 08:43:23 AM »
Maybe instead of fighting culture wars 24/7, the Governor could work on helping South Florida with their Climate Change issues.

https://youtu.be/c1dnlHPzhQA
"The problem with quotes on the internet is you can never be certain they're authentic." - Abraham Lincoln

MusicMan

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2022, 09:38:21 AM »
BT: The portion of America which was Democrat dominated in the 1850's and 1860's  is now the heart of the new south Republican party.

BridgeTroll

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Re: Dear Americans: Your Politics Don’t Have to Be This Toxic
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2022, 02:08:45 PM »
BT: The portion of America which was Democrat dominated in the 1850's and 1860's  is now the heart of the new south Republican party.

Thanks for the history lesson… so what we learned today is that change can happen, party platforms evolve and change. Kinda what I was trying to sell…
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."