Author Topic: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police  (Read 18858 times)

jaxoNOLE

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2021, 08:33:31 PM »
^based on the quoted text, you can draw parallels to likely most statewide and nationwide elected officials. Comparing DeSantis and Trump to Goebbels because they, for example, use provocation to bring attention to their party is all well and good--if you can acknowledge the practice is almost universal in politics and therefore, many of our officials are Goebbelsesque. "Controlling the narrative" is the linchpin of modern political strategy. I agree that should be nipped in the bud, but it needs to be culled from our political culture even when it's used to support a cause or candidate we favor, too.


The blocking of the social media law is not unexpected. But I would not say on this issue that DeSantis was addressing a non-existent problem. Instead, he inappropriately used government power to address an issue that can really only be tackled through competition. The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

NPR had a thoughtful piece on the topic. One can dislike the policy approach DeSantis took, but you can't say he was chasing shadows on a topic that's receiving attention from both sides of the aisle:

   https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/956486352/judge-refuses-to-reinstate-parler-after-amazon-shut-it-down   

jaxlongtimer

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2021, 08:58:38 PM »
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 12:26:02 AM by jaxlongtimer »

jaxlongtimer

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JeffreyS

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2021, 09:57:45 PM »
The last sentence says it all…

https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2021/05/12/poll-show-desantis-on-solid-ground-as-democrats-try-to-find-openings-1381609
I will admit to some animosity, I mean he started his general election campaign with a dog whistle racist slur then, supported Trump, all he can say about Jan 6 is “unfortunate “, his attempt to squash the free speech rights of social media ( struck down for it’s obvious illegal attempt to cover propaganda) signing anti LGBT bills at the beginning of pride month to enhance the show and on and on with the mean spirited strong arming. Hell my whole complaint about this survey is about when he took the mic and made sure people knew it was a hammer to be afraid of ( which is why I ignore people
trying to lawyer speak about fine print and how it’s not as malicious as we think it is). Even if Dems do exaggerate I am surprised he’s the guy you want to go to bat for BT.
Lenny Smash

icarus

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2021, 10:34:24 PM »
Haven't really been following this thread because it looked like blatant political axe to grind garbage.  Looked at it tonight and it pretty much confirmed my instinct.

I generally choose not to read this garbage. I choose to listen to viewpoints on both sides of the aisle, even ones I dont agree with. But, if someone seeks to deprive anyone of their voice, their right to be heard, then I do have a problem. 

Does anyone believe De Santis has anywhere near the ability of social media to shape political discourse or to censor speech?  SMH

I miss the days when the ACLU fought for unpopular causes because of the one supreme truth ... if you give up your freedom to suppress your opponent then no one has freedom.  I for one am always going to fight for all of my civil rights and the civil rights of everyone .. friend or foe.

jaxlongtimer

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2021, 12:20:55 AM »
Does anyone believe De Santis has anywhere near the ability of social media to shape political discourse or to censor speech?  SMH

Maybe.  He has nixed teaching of critical race theory, attempted to regulate university teaching, approved a law to intimidate protestors, attempted to control speech hosted by private tech companies, withheld and maybe manipulated critical info on COVID (which is roaring back due to the Delta variant and low vaccination rates in Jax and Florida), handpicked favorable reporters to cover some of his state sanctioned actions, voided a civics course his own party advocated for because it might promote a "preferred orthodoxy" (?!), created barriers to citizen initiated ballot initiatives, etc.  Let's not underestimate his intentions to do just what you ask.  And, yes, all politicians try to do these things, but not to the degree he has done.  He has set a new bar.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 12:24:10 AM by jaxlongtimer »

itsfantastic1

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2021, 02:15:04 AM »
What people keep mixing up is the first amendment curbs the government's ability to restrict free speech, not private individuals or companies.

If you (user) come into my private house (Facebook, Twitter, MetroJax) and do something I as the owner dislike (break ToS), I have every right to kick you out of my house (ban). Frankly, I don't even need to have a reason to kick you out or even let you in.

I agree that some of these companies hold more sway than they should but the solution isn't to force them to open up for "all sides", but for users to stop relying on them as a sole source of information and leave the platform when it's outlived its purpose thereby reducing it's importance.

Adam White

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2021, 07:15:50 AM »
What people keep mixing up is the first amendment curbs the government's ability to restrict free speech, not private individuals or companies.

If you (user) come into my private house (Facebook, Twitter, MetroJax) and do something I as the owner dislike (break ToS), I have every right to kick you out of my house (ban). Frankly, I don't even need to have a reason to kick you out or even let you in.

I agree that some of these companies hold more sway than they should but the solution isn't to force them to open up for "all sides", but for users to stop relying on them as a sole source of information and leave the platform when it's outlived its purpose thereby reducing it's importance.

You've said this before, but I don't think anyone is making that error. This whole thread is about limiting free speech (or appearing to limit free speech) on university campuses. Whether that is the case is a matter of opinion - not all agree that is what is happening. But if it is, it is clearly a first amendment issue.
“If you're going to play it out of tune, then play it out of tune properly.”

BridgeTroll

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2021, 07:51:33 AM »
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.

Sounds like the slippery slope... perhaps this is what gun owners feel when new "small and reasonable " restrictions are placed on a right they are defending. I keep hearing about "common sense " restrictions but more and more keep coming...

Slippery slopes are slippery for everyone...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

JeffreyS

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2021, 09:47:50 AM »
Maybe more and more are attempted after the prior attempts failed. To say more and more new gun laws have been passed and like they have been piling up on top of each other (or sliding)is dishonest.
Lenny Smash

itsfantastic1

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2021, 10:07:51 AM »
What people keep mixing up is the first amendment curbs the government's ability to restrict free speech, not private individuals or companies.

If you (user) come into my private house (Facebook, Twitter, MetroJax) and do something I as the owner dislike (break ToS), I have every right to kick you out of my house (ban). Frankly, I don't even need to have a reason to kick you out or even let you in.

I agree that some of these companies hold more sway than they should but the solution isn't to force them to open up for "all sides", but for users to stop relying on them as a sole source of information and leave the platform when it's outlived its purpose thereby reducing it's importance.

You've said this before, but I don't think anyone is making that error. This whole thread is about limiting free speech (or appearing to limit free speech) on university campuses. Whether that is the case is a matter of opinion - not all agree that is what is happening. But if it is, it is clearly a first amendment issue.

Apologies, I thought someone above me (Icarus?) was commenting on the social media law that just had an injunction issued as was stating he agreed with the law as it were because it was protecting free speech.

Snaketoz

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2021, 11:04:11 AM »
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.

Sounds like the slippery slope... perhaps this is what gun owners feel when new "small and reasonable " restrictions are placed on a right they are defending. I keep hearing about "common sense " restrictions but more and more keep coming...

Slippery slopes are slippery for everyone...
Slippery indeed.  To back DeSantis' redundant and questionable laws while opposing sensible firearm restrictions is hypocritical.  I would love to see a "gun rights" advocate just once quote the entire 2nd amendment instead of the usual "right to bear arms" snippet of that amendment.  The amendment already contains restrictions that the NRA and gun nuts always ignore.

jaxoNOLE

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2021, 01:47:07 PM »
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.

Sounds like the slippery slope... perhaps this is what gun owners feel when new "small and reasonable " restrictions are placed on a right they are defending. I keep hearing about "common sense " restrictions but more and more keep coming...

Slippery slopes are slippery for everyone...
Slippery indeed.  To back DeSantis' redundant and questionable laws while opposing sensible firearm restrictions is hypocritical.  I would love to see a "gun rights" advocate just once quote the entire 2nd amendment instead of the usual "right to bear arms" snippet of that amendment.  The amendment already contains restrictions that the NRA and gun nuts always ignore.

Taking a step back from our personal views and feelings, I think this comparison could help the two sides understand each other a bit better. The "this survey could be used by government to curtail first amendment rights" argument could easily be reframed as the "gun registries could be used by government to curtail second amendment rights" fear gun owners have. To me, instead of sowing division, it should reinforce why we should be able to unite against the theme of government overreach, as it has the capacity to threaten any right.

BridgeTroll

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2021, 04:28:44 PM »
Interesting discussion... sorry I missed it but a friend needed help harvesting 300 pounds of honey...

Happy Fourth to everyone!!!! 8) 8) 8)
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Snaketoz

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Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2021, 04:38:23 PM »
Same to you B.T., and everyone else.