Author Topic: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan  (Read 14070 times)

Steve

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2022, 09:45:21 AM »
Yea, I seriously question Maritime 618 being included at all.

thelakelander

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2022, 06:29:33 PM »
Some updates from the State of Downtown report by the DIA today.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/state-of-downtown-report-dollar4-63-billion-in-projects-in-pipeline

The good news is that they seem to have taken at least one piece of advice from here: pivoting away from 10,000 residents and towards 10,000 units.

Shame I find it hard to take the top line number seriously when so many of these projects are still questionable as to whether they'll make it to the finish line.

I'd consider anything outside of being already under construction or in various stages of permitting as being too premature to include. Going that route will save downtown cheerleaders and critics a lot of heartache when the real numbers come in. The realistic numbers are still worth celebrating, while also pushing home the need to effectively move more conceptual projects into the world of reality.
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2022, 11:07:17 PM »
Some updates from the State of Downtown report by the DIA today.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/state-of-downtown-report-dollar4-63-billion-in-projects-in-pipeline

The good news is that they seem to have taken at least one piece of advice from here: pivoting away from 10,000 residents and towards 10,000 units.

Shame I find it hard to take the top line number seriously when so many of these projects are still questionable as to whether they'll make it to the finish line.

I'd consider anything outside of being already under construction or in various stages of permitting as being too premature to include. Going that route will save downtown cheerleaders and critics a lot of heartache when the real numbers come in. The realistic numbers are still worth celebrating, while also pushing home the need to effectively move more conceptual projects into the world of reality.

In my cursory review, this report double and triple counts projects because it includes completed, in-progress and proposed.  So, if each phase were only one year (never the case), it would be counted in at least 3 successive reports.  I call this white washing.  When you distill the actual progress being made, not so much, certainly nowhere close to $4+ billion at one fell swoop.  With higher interest rates and a possible coming recession, look for more of these projects to be pushed back indefinitely, if ever.  Window is closing as many here predicted it would.

Any slowdown should be used to finally masterplan and vision a real downtown.  Not holding out hope for that though.

thelakelander

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2022, 09:03:06 AM »
Some updates from the State of Downtown report by the DIA today.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/state-of-downtown-report-dollar4-63-billion-in-projects-in-pipeline

The good news is that they seem to have taken at least one piece of advice from here: pivoting away from 10,000 residents and towards 10,000 units.

Shame I find it hard to take the top line number seriously when so many of these projects are still questionable as to whether they'll make it to the finish line.

I'd consider anything outside of being already under construction or in various stages of permitting as being too premature to include. Going that route will save downtown cheerleaders and critics a lot of heartache when the real numbers come in. The realistic numbers are still worth celebrating, while also pushing home the need to effectively move more conceptual projects into the world of reality.

In my cursory review, this report double and triple counts projects because it includes completed, in-progress and proposed.  So, if each phase were only one year (never the case), it would be counted in at least 3 successive reports.  I call this white washing.  When you distill the actual progress being made, not so much, certainly nowhere close to $4+ billion at one fell swoop.  With higher interest rates and a possible coming recession, look for more of these projects to be pushed back indefinitely, if ever.  Window is closing as many here predicted it would.

Any slowdown should be used to finally masterplan and vision a real downtown.  Not holding out hope for that though.

IMO, there's nothing wrong in highlighting the truth. There's currently around 900 residential units under construction and another 710 units either deep in permitting or going on sites where land clearing efforts have already started. There's also 200 hotel units underway and 539,000 square feet of office space nearing completion. While not close to what's going on in other major Florida downtown districts, that's a good thing. Let's see if these numbers can be increased a year from now. If so, that's proof of tangible improvement. Also, I'd love to see more emphasis placed on placemaking and street activation (specifically in the Northbank) or whatever we want to call it these days. Ultimately, I believe that's more important that the total sum of numbers spread across a four square mile area.

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downtownbrown

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2022, 04:02:45 PM »

jaxlongtimer

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2022, 04:11:44 PM »
Nate Monroe's column this week nails down why we go nowhere here:
Quote
• ....Term limits cycle out both mayors and City Council members every eight years, so the city would have to see continuity between different generations of city politicians — something that has rarely happened in the half-century since the city and county governments consolidated into one. Each mayor has blazed into office with their own priorities, their own agendas, seeking to leave their own mark. Those have rarely overlapped with the priorities of their predecessors.

The “greatest setback to consolidation was that every mayor who came to office, rather than picking up on efforts already underway, started all over again. If they had simply picked up the ball and kept running with it, we would have accomplished so much more,” Alton Yates, who served in four Jacksonville mayoral administrations and was among the black leaders who advocated for consolidation, told author and former City Hall official Chris Hand in a 2018 interview for an update to “A Quiet Revolution,” published in 2019....

...But the lack of continuity from one administration to the next cost the city years of potential progress. Instead of waiting for a resiliency report that is set to drop next year, the city could have had one in hand years ago and already begun work on important projects.

• Resiliency requires sustained city investment, which it has rarely delivered. See: Parks, libraries, infrastructure, the Jacksonville Journey, the indigent-care tax.

• It requires turning reports about things that can be done into projects that are actually being done. See: Parks, libraries, infrastructure, the Jacksonville Journey, the indigent-care tax.

• Any serious plan will mean, eventually, telling developers things they don't want to hear — "No, that is a floodplain and you may not build there." — because waterfront development is Florida's perilous siren call.

Generous contributions from developers are the lifeblood of Jacksonville mayoral and council campaigns, second only to the influence of the lobbyists and consultants who represent them. The leading candidate to replace Curry, Daniel Davis, is the head of the JAX Chamber and the former president of the Northeast Florida Builders Association. Even if he is open-minded on issues like sea-level rise — and I believe him to be — how committed would he be to bucking the very people who aided his own rise?

• Above all, it will require the city to actually care — the simple thing it too often lacks, the thing that betrays the feel-good rhetoric and the glossy reports and the vague gestures toward actual progress....

.... Curry's administration is the fortunate beneficiary of tens of millions of dollars in federal pandemic money, supplemented by a new 6-cent gas tax he muscled through the City Council last year. What happens when that surplus runs out? What mayor, in this polarized age, will stick their neck out for climate change? Who will willingly sit in the middle seat — too late to be credited for beginning the work, too early to get credit for finishing it?

The mayor who does that will be a mayor who cares.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2022/10/05/nate-monroe-story-park-hurricane-and-jacksonvilles-future/8178648001/

fieldafm

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2022, 04:59:52 PM »
Nate Monroe's column this week nails down why we go nowhere here:
Quote
• ....Term limits cycle out both mayors and City Council members every eight years, so the city would have to see continuity between different generations of city politicians — something that has rarely happened in the half-century since the city and county governments consolidated into one. Each mayor has blazed into office with their own priorities, their own agendas, seeking to leave their own mark. Those have rarely overlapped with the priorities of their predecessors.

The “greatest setback to consolidation was that every mayor who came to office, rather than picking up on efforts already underway, started all over again. If they had simply picked up the ball and kept running with it, we would have accomplished so much more,” Alton Yates, who served in four Jacksonville mayoral administrations and was among the black leaders who advocated for consolidation, told author and former City Hall official Chris Hand in a 2018 interview for an update to “A Quiet Revolution,” published in 2019....

...But the lack of continuity from one administration to the next cost the city years of potential progress. Instead of waiting for a resiliency report that is set to drop next year, the city could have had one in hand years ago and already begun work on important projects.

• Resiliency requires sustained city investment, which it has rarely delivered. See: Parks, libraries, infrastructure, the Jacksonville Journey, the indigent-care tax.

• It requires turning reports about things that can be done into projects that are actually being done. See: Parks, libraries, infrastructure, the Jacksonville Journey, the indigent-care tax.

• Any serious plan will mean, eventually, telling developers things they don't want to hear — "No, that is a floodplain and you may not build there." — because waterfront development is Florida's perilous siren call.

Generous contributions from developers are the lifeblood of Jacksonville mayoral and council campaigns, second only to the influence of the lobbyists and consultants who represent them. The leading candidate to replace Curry, Daniel Davis, is the head of the JAX Chamber and the former president of the Northeast Florida Builders Association. Even if he is open-minded on issues like sea-level rise — and I believe him to be — how committed would he be to bucking the very people who aided his own rise?

• Above all, it will require the city to actually care — the simple thing it too often lacks, the thing that betrays the feel-good rhetoric and the glossy reports and the vague gestures toward actual progress....

.... Curry's administration is the fortunate beneficiary of tens of millions of dollars in federal pandemic money, supplemented by a new 6-cent gas tax he muscled through the City Council last year. What happens when that surplus runs out? What mayor, in this polarized age, will stick their neck out for climate change? Who will willingly sit in the middle seat — too late to be credited for beginning the work, too early to get credit for finishing it?

The mayor who does that will be a mayor who cares.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2022/10/05/nate-monroe-story-park-hurricane-and-jacksonvilles-future/8178648001/


Sorry, but the reasons for the lack of infrastructure spending in Jax, have absolutely nothing to do with why Downtown struggles. Thats conflating two very distinct issues.

More public money has been spent on Downtown than any other neighborhood in Jacksonville over the last several decades (this is a verifiable fact), however the vast majority of those dollars have been directed to financially benefit a select few individuals/companies... resulting in haphazard/disjointed development patterns, a lack of sustained progress over multiple administrations, and projects that get abandoned/half-@ssed/half-funded.   There is something like more than 200 acres of land downtown that is owned by COJ that is essentially forever mothballed and reserved for whenever the politically connected obtain some additional public money to then acquire it (or not acquire it, after money was spent and then spectacularly failed before anything breaks ground).

The 100% problem with Downtown- and this is coming from someone who owns properties and businesses downtown, and who works with both local and non-local developers... is that its used almost exclusively as an ATM machine for the donor class.

A true master plan (not half-@ssed ones developed by the very people who would financially benefit from said plan) would circumvent most of that, and direct infrastructure spending in very finite ways that actually encourages infill, adaptive reuse and puts in place the kind of vibrant ground-level public realm that people actually want to spend time in.

That's literally the point of this editorial.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 05:35:59 PM by fieldafm »

jaxlongtimer

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2022, 09:42:01 PM »
Nate Monroe's column this week nails down why we go nowhere here:
Quote
• ....Term limits cycle out both mayors and City Council members every eight years, so the city would have to see continuity between different generations of city politicians — something that has rarely happened in the half-century since the city and county governments consolidated into one. Each mayor has blazed into office with their own priorities, their own agendas, seeking to leave their own mark. Those have rarely overlapped with the priorities of their predecessors.

The “greatest setback to consolidation was that every mayor who came to office, rather than picking up on efforts already underway, started all over again. If they had simply picked up the ball and kept running with it, we would have accomplished so much more,” Alton Yates, who served in four Jacksonville mayoral administrations and was among the black leaders who advocated for consolidation, told author and former City Hall official Chris Hand in a 2018 interview for an update to “A Quiet Revolution,” published in 2019....

...But the lack of continuity from one administration to the next cost the city years of potential progress. Instead of waiting for a resiliency report that is set to drop next year, the city could have had one in hand years ago and already begun work on important projects.

• Resiliency requires sustained city investment, which it has rarely delivered. See: Parks, libraries, infrastructure, the Jacksonville Journey, the indigent-care tax.

• It requires turning reports about things that can be done into projects that are actually being done. See: Parks, libraries, infrastructure, the Jacksonville Journey, the indigent-care tax.

• Any serious plan will mean, eventually, telling developers things they don't want to hear — "No, that is a floodplain and you may not build there." — because waterfront development is Florida's perilous siren call.

Generous contributions from developers are the lifeblood of Jacksonville mayoral and council campaigns, second only to the influence of the lobbyists and consultants who represent them. The leading candidate to replace Curry, Daniel Davis, is the head of the JAX Chamber and the former president of the Northeast Florida Builders Association. Even if he is open-minded on issues like sea-level rise — and I believe him to be — how committed would he be to bucking the very people who aided his own rise?

• Above all, it will require the city to actually care — the simple thing it too often lacks, the thing that betrays the feel-good rhetoric and the glossy reports and the vague gestures toward actual progress....

.... Curry's administration is the fortunate beneficiary of tens of millions of dollars in federal pandemic money, supplemented by a new 6-cent gas tax he muscled through the City Council last year. What happens when that surplus runs out? What mayor, in this polarized age, will stick their neck out for climate change? Who will willingly sit in the middle seat — too late to be credited for beginning the work, too early to get credit for finishing it?

The mayor who does that will be a mayor who cares.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2022/10/05/nate-monroe-story-park-hurricane-and-jacksonvilles-future/8178648001/


Sorry, but the reasons for the lack of infrastructure spending in Jax, have absolutely nothing to do with why Downtown struggles. Thats conflating two very distinct issues.

More public money has been spent on Downtown than any other neighborhood in Jacksonville over the last several decades (this is a verifiable fact), however the vast majority of those dollars have been directed to financially benefit a select few individuals/companies... resulting in haphazard/disjointed development patterns, a lack of sustained progress over multiple administrations, and projects that get abandoned/half-@ssed/half-funded.   There is something like more than 200 acres of land downtown that is owned by COJ that is essentially forever mothballed and reserved for whenever the politically connected obtain some additional public money to then acquire it (or not acquire it, after money was spent and then spectacularly failed before anything breaks ground).

The 100% problem with Downtown- and this is coming from someone who owns properties and businesses downtown, and who works with both local and non-local developers... is that its used almost exclusively as an ATM machine for the donor class.

A true master plan (not half-@ssed ones developed by the very people who would financially benefit from said plan) would circumvent most of that, and direct infrastructure spending in very finite ways that actually encourages infill, adaptive reuse and puts in place the kind of vibrant ground-level public realm that people actually want to spend time in.

That's literally the point of this editorial.

As I see it, the reason given for a lack of infrastructure spending stems from the same affliction of City leadership that creates the lack of progress Downtown:  an inconsistent leadership issue that results in leading for the short term, not for the long term.  Hence, my post on this thread.

As Monroe concludes, having a mayor that cares would make a major difference in results.  A mayor that cares would address your concerns about kowtowing to a favored few developers or well-heeled donors over the good of all of the City which would include building a downtown out for everybody, not just the favored few. 

We get mayors who either favor their "friends" or are so submissive that they allow themselves to be manipulated by the donor class, mostly so they can continue to successfully run for office.  Term limits, in this case, seems to magnify the problem of bad leadership, not resolve it, as its proponents had hoped, since any mayor (and, maybe, a compliant city council) with a good plan won't be around long enough to protect it and see it through.  It all adds up to the problems we discuss herein.

fieldafm

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2022, 10:11:19 PM »
Sorry, no.

A master plan isn't intended to look a couple of years into the future, and thus outlives multiple mayoral administrations.  This notion that a downtown (or any neighborhood) can be completely rebuilt in 24-36 months because of one single 'people's chamopion' or any other game-changer-type mentality is fools gold.

I can pick a hundred examples locally.. but lets just start with the one where I just drove through- the widening of Riverside Avenue and Forrest Street in Brooklyn (which included a new bridge across the St Johns River and a new highway exit) was part of an FDOT plan that spanned FIVE mayoral administrations (good ones and bad ones).  This infrastructure plan completely severed the historic grid pattern of the neighborhood and influenced the new development pattern of Brooklyn for my entire teenage and adult life- and I'm in my mid 40's now.  That's not opinion, its fact.     

It was a half-@ssed carveout that was not part of any larger downtown master plan, largely pushed by special interests and against the public's interests at every turn.  It is still one of the largest per/mile capital spends in the history of the State of Florida.  Again, billions 'with a B, and plural' in public monies have been spent on 'Downtown' in my lifetime... resulting in a literal piece of crap product.  Despite all that taxpayer money spent (and mostly borrowed) that went into the pockets of the donor class... my wife's friends still won't walk from Bay Street to Bellwether at night, and hotel guests still wake up on a Saturday morning walking around aimlessly saying 'what am I supposed to do here?'
« Last Edit: October 05, 2022, 10:28:02 PM by fieldafm »

marcuscnelson

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2022, 10:56:55 PM »

In my cursory review, this report double and triple counts projects because it includes completed, in-progress and proposed.  So, if each phase were only one year (never the case), it would be counted in at least 3 successive reports.  I call this white washing.  When you distill the actual progress being made, not so much, certainly nowhere close to $4+ billion at one fell swoop.  With higher interest rates and a possible coming recession, look for more of these projects to be pushed back indefinitely, if ever.  Window is closing as many here predicted it would.

Any slowdown should be used to finally masterplan and vision a real downtown.  Not holding out hope for that though.

I don't think the double- or triple-counting you suggest is the case here. The actual report has since become available here. It's just that they're counting projects that are unlikely or very far off in that number. The projects currently "in review" (which makes up the largest portion, $2.7 billion) include the Four Seasons, MOSH, Related RCBC, Hardwick, American Lions, and Laura Trio. Those alone get you close to a billion. Are all of those happening soon? Probably not, unfortunately. But they're not being double-counted.

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/1536/Downtown-Master-Plan   

this is how you do it.

It's strange because the lead consultant, GAI, isn't actually a stranger to putting together better plans that can be acted on. Look at Clermont, whose much smaller plan by GAI from seven years ago is still being acted on. Perhaps the difference is in the mission statements:

Quote
The City of Clermont’s award-winning Downtown-Waterfront Master Plan has served as the city's road map for the future of our city since its adoption in 2015. Like any plan, it is meant to be a guide and is intended to adapt to changing circumstances.

Quote
Provide a modern redevelopment blueprint for the type of unique urban environment that can take advantage of markets that now exist, and be used as a long-term guide for decisions of the Downtown Investment Authority.

Sorry, but the reasons for the lack of infrastructure spending in Jax, have absolutely nothing to do with why Downtown struggles. Thats conflating two very distinct issues.

More public money has been spent on Downtown than any other neighborhood in Jacksonville over the last several decades (this is a verifiable fact), however the vast majority of those dollars have been directed to financially benefit a select few individuals/companies... resulting in haphazard/disjointed development patterns, a lack of sustained progress over multiple administrations, and projects that get abandoned/half-@ssed/half-funded.   There is something like more than 200 acres of land downtown that is owned by COJ that is essentially forever mothballed and reserved for whenever the politically connected obtain some additional public money to then acquire it (or not acquire it, after money was spent and then spectacularly failed before anything breaks ground).

The 100% problem with Downtown- and this is coming from someone who owns properties and businesses downtown, and who works with both local and non-local developers... is that its used almost exclusively as an ATM machine for the donor class.

A true master plan (not half-@ssed ones developed by the very people who would financially benefit from said plan) would circumvent most of that, and direct infrastructure spending in very finite ways that actually encourages infill, adaptive reuse and puts in place the kind of vibrant ground-level public realm that people actually want to spend time in.

That's literally the point of this editorial.

Yeah, pretty much. I've shown a lot of friends from other cities around downtown Jax, in person and virtually, and they come away baffled by how downtown is such poor quality for the sheer volume of money that seems to have gone around. Not just by egregious things like the courthouse or JTA or roadways, but even how much money still pours into incentives for projects that don't actually lend themselves well to the urban fabric in the end. So many other cities have made do with far less, yet Jacksonville is so wholly captured by whatever leftover good ol' boy system that we can't even manage to punch below our weight, much less above it. One mayoral administration where that isn't the case might stem the bleeding but it won't stop, people have to work harder than that.
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marcuscnelson

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2024, 09:29:29 PM »
Baltimore just updated what they’re calling their Downtown master plan, thought I’d put it here for comparison.

https://www.downtownbaltimorerise.com/pdf/DowntownRise10YearVision.pdf
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jaxlongtimer

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2024, 10:18:43 PM »
Baltimore just updated what they’re calling their Downtown master plan, thought I’d put it here for comparison.

https://www.downtownbaltimorerise.com/pdf/DowntownRise10YearVision.pdf

Interesting that almost the entire emphasis is on transportation, walkability, streetscapes, etc. I didn't see one thing in there about offering incentives to developers but, rather, moving to invest in advancing public infrastructure to improve mobility and connectivity with the expectation that much good will follow.  A mostly totally different approach than Jax DIA. Interesting that the State via the Governor and the University of Maryland are also significant partners.

jaxlongtimer

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2024, 01:47:49 PM »
Lil' old St. Augustine manages their "downtown" so much better than Jacksonville.  And, not a single billion dollar project to boot.

While we allow construction of a convenience store/gas station and JTA U2C maintenance facility at the entry point to our Downtown and add a mini warehouse in one of its more vibrant pieces on the Southbank, St. Augustine bought a carwash to remove its "blight" from the entry point to its Downtown.

And, we wonder why our downtown isn't attractive to others....  We need to dump DIA who doesn't get any of the below and hire St. Augustine's downtown planners to plan our downtown.

St. Augustine's plans to rebuild the gateway road, King Street, into downtown St. Augustine:

Quote
St. Augustine's plan to build the ‘best mile in Florida’

....Making a better first impression for visitors — as well as making the views pleasant for locals — is important to Sikes-Kline and others. She said it's the main reason the city purchased and tore down a car wash that used to be located right at the King Street-U.S. 1 intersection.

"It's about creating that excitement coming into the city," she said...

....While there will be some hassles associated with the construction, businesses will have the benefit of a better-looking entrance corridor and more appealing and safer pedestrian walkways...

...."Any time you take what’s there and think about it a little more and add landscaping and some concepts that are much more attractive when people are either driving or walking down the street ... when I’ve seen that done in other areas, it’s always been an improvement," Cox said....

....But there are few options to divert traffic away from King Street.

What planners can do is make it more efficient and more pleasant.

That includes synchronizing the traffic signals to induce a more consistent flow and making the corridor more pleasing to the eye.

“It’s how do you make sure that you have better traffic flow than you have today but it’s still feeling iconically, beautifully St. Augustine,” Marquis said....

....Sikes-Kline acknowledged that parking is important, but the project is also about the city’s continued effort to place less reliance on personal vehicles in the city center.

“We want people to get out of their cars and walk,” Sikes-Kline said. “They don’t want to do it if it’s not an interesting walk, and they don’t want to do it if it’s a hot walk. So lots of shade trees, enhanced lighting and underground utilities.”...

....Overview of improvements

For pedestrians

Improved sidewalks and shade from trees will create a better pedestrian experience for residents and visitors alike.

Expanded sidewalks; 8-11 feet on each side

Street trees; typically cabbage palms (Florida state tree)

Pedestrian scale lighting with vehicular scale lighting at intersections.

Mid-block crossings provide safe opportunities to cross.

For drivers

Vehicular modifications are focused and “surgical” in nature. The intent is to support smoother movement of vehicular traffic. Traffic engineers have modeled both concepts to validate that traffic volume is maintained or even improved from today’s conditions.

Lanes are consistently 10-11 feet in width.

Improved drainage is included throughout.

Defined center turn lane in brick.

For bicyclists

Bicycles will also benefit from the incorporation of sharrows and the better defined travel lanes.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2024/07/19/st-augustines-plan-to-build-the-best-mile-in-fl.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=JA&ana=e_JA_BN&j=36117858&senddate=2024-07-19
« Last Edit: July 19, 2024, 05:28:54 PM by jaxlongtimer »

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2024, 04:26:36 PM »
Now that's a plan, not billions of dollars, not 300 pages, bulletized definitive points of what WILL and MUST be done. Yeah, lure him or her away from St. Augustine to head our DIA.
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iMarvin

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Re: For real though, Downtown Jax needs a master plan
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2024, 04:40:40 PM »
Would be nice to see them close the street to cars completely or at the very least make it one-way.