Author Topic: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....  (Read 47255 times)

marcuscnelson

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #210 on: November 10, 2022, 10:15:22 AM »
The Bay Street Innovation Corridor a $51.1 million project that is not really related to the Skyway conversion (that's phase 2). JTA hopes to complete the 3.1 mile long Bay Street Innovation Corridor in mid 2025. It will run along Bay from Pearl Street to TIAA Bank Field. The project includes 15 NAVYA AUTONOM vehicles, carrying 11 seated passengers and 4 standing. The vehicles will have a maximum operating speed of 16mph, although we don't know at this point if they'll be allowed to go that fast. The system will operate in mixed traffic and there are no plans to change the configuration of the existing streets. Operating at Level 3, each vehicle will have a human attendant.

Much of the money will be spent on building the operations center at Jefferson and West Bay Street. The proposed building is much larger than I originally anticipated. That was probably the one thing I didn't fully pay attention to prior to the meeting. The route and general system itself is nothing that we didn't already know. It's basically running a few AVs in mixed traffic, on regular streets, sort of like the pilot system in Lake Nona (Orlando). There were no detailed plans or typicals. Just a big aerial roll plot with a line, showing the proposed route. A public meeting is planned next week at the JRTC.

So the price has already risen again. They've committed to the Navya shuttle (which makes sense, because they really had no other choice anyway). I was under the impression they'd at least have a limited dedicated segment at the Hart bridge ramp, but maybe that's changed. After 5 years of R&D and "test & learn"-ing they haven't been able to increase speeds or escape Level 3 autonomy, which means that this will require more human resources to operate than the existing system, while intentionally being able to carry fewer passengers. And if I recall correctly, because of the stipulations of the federal grants they're receiving, they are supposed to charge fares to ride this like a normal transit line.

Again, this is the culmination of what will be eight years of planning by its projected opening. Ten years since the original mandate of "keep, modernize, and expand."

I want to remind you all what the "Golden 20" of "critical requirements" JTA claimed would be needed for an "acceptable deployment" of autonomous vehicles, three years ago in 2019:

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1) Full ADA Compliance
2) Buy America/Buy American Compliance
3) Cybersecurity
4) Remote Route Programming with Low Latency
5) NHTSA Approval to operate on Public Road
6) Vehicle to Infrastructure and V2X Capabilities (DSRC & 5G)
7) Traverse Slope of ± 12 Degrees w/ Full Passenger load (Sustained Acceleration/Deceleration)
8 ) Operate bi-directionally up to 35 MPH
9) ≥12 hours of battery life
10) Operate at speeds of 15 MPH within ± 1 foot of Stationary Object
Operate at speeds of 15 MPH within ± 3 feet of Moving Object
11) May Operate during Inclement Weather (Rain, Fog, Wind, and Extreme Heat)
12) Internal Cab – Environment control with Rapid Cool capability & Sustained temperature with Full Passenger Load
13) Ability to be towed; Push/Pull and Steer AV Manually or towed via another AV
14) Crash Worthy up to 35 MPH
15) Ability for Fast Charge/Opportunity Charging
16) Ability to regulate passenger capacity
17) System for recording/storing video for at least 30 days (Black Box)
18) Emergency button to contact Authority/Agency control center
19) Remote command & control operations of vehicles with low latency
20) Complete Vehicle Monitoring system, including health monitoring
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

marcuscnelson

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #211 on: November 10, 2022, 10:22:22 AM »
I do hope at some point, JTA will just upgrade the rolling stock on the Skyway. Those little old and raggedy trains need to be put out of their misery. I ride them three or four days a week and have had to deal with the experience of them breaking down a few times.

Replacing the trains is probably out of the question, simply because you'd have to spend a lot of money replacing the operating system and signaling (like what Miami is doing), and perhaps even modifying the beam or sidewalls to accommodate a new train, which is exactly what they don't want to do.

However, what they should be able to do is find someone to replace all the parts necessary to overhaul the trains into a state of good repair while fixing up the stations (see what they did with Jefferson). New train motors, new furnishings, things like that. At one point this year they seemed to attempt to do that with an RFP, but then they canceled it and attempted another RFP to hurry to tearing out the beam, which they also ended up canceling. There's now a sole source contract out to reverse-engineer and remanufacture a single part (something called a main contact), so it's really unclear what the actual plan going forward is going to be.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

tufsu1

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #212 on: November 10, 2022, 02:55:07 PM »
one more thing - what happens when Bay Street floods - check Insta post from Intuition today :)

jaxoNOLE

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #213 on: November 10, 2022, 03:01:59 PM »
one more thing - what happens when Bay Street floods - check Insta post from Intuition today :)

Compounded by the fact that EVs enjoy being flooded even less than gas-powered vehicles...what could go wrong?

marcuscnelson

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #214 on: November 10, 2022, 03:26:12 PM »
one more thing - what happens when Bay Street floods - check Insta post from Intuition today :)

The thing I've heard over and over again is that they're gonna be installing a bunch of flood sensors along Bay Street as part of this project that will do… something.
So, to the young people fighting in this movement for change, here is my charge: march in the streets, protest, run for school committee or city council or the state legislature. And win. - Ed Markey

thelakelander

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2022, 05:20:14 PM »
Yes, the plan includes flood sensors. Although we know the areas that are flood prone, the sensors will reinforce that historical knowledge. So the cars won't float away because they won't be running.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #216 on: November 10, 2022, 05:21:19 PM »
one more thing - what happens when Bay Street floods - check Insta post from Intuition today :)

The bigger question is what will happen during a summer rainstorm?!
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

jaxlongtimer

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #217 on: November 10, 2022, 06:16:25 PM »
Some questions....

Will the "non" AV's on Bay Street be the ones ultimately running on the Skyway track?

Economically, let's see... we are going to pay a specially trained driver of a 15 passenger vehicle at least the same dollars as one who drives a 40+ (I estimate) passenger bus.  And, in a vehicle that goes at less than half the speed and operates only when the weather is nice :).  How does the cost of one of these vehicles compare to the cost of a regular bus?  How much is the added cost of the infrastructure and operations center adding to the ride cost?  How will the operations center be staffed?  Where will maintenance on the vehicles be performed and by who?

What happens when the "driver" improperly reacts to a situation created by the vehicle?  How seamless is it switching back and forth between driver control and automated control?

What happens the first time one of these vehicles is in an accident, especially one with injuries?  How much of the millions in liability settlement and/or the cost of such insurance dollars are figured in the budget?  Will JTA reconsider after the public outcry and national news making?

How much demand is there for a ride down Bay Street, other than for events at the arena and the stadium?  And, then, how will these vehicles navigate a street with wall to wall cars sharing the road with them?  Or, the anxious fans jumping out in front of one to cross the street, even worse, while intoxicated?

I have driven Bay Street many times on this route to the stadium during business hours and find I mostly have the road to myself.  Maybe that's why JTA picked this route?

Do the AV's need continuous wireless connections to the internet to operate?  If that connection is lost, does the bus stop in its tracks?  Can a hacker gain control of the AV?

Can these vehicles operate at night, in very low light or in a very heavy rain (especially at night?) as well as during the day?  Can they be blinded by the sun?

LOL, how will they handle all the pot holes the City has due to poor road maintenance?

What happens if the road sensors get damaged, disabled or vandalized?  Are there sensors to detect bad sensors?  Does the vehicle come to a stop?  What happens when vehicles stop in the middle of a lane for problems?  Do they "know" to pull out of traffic, into a vacant lot or along a curb?

fsu813

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #218 on: November 11, 2022, 06:18:30 AM »
one more thing - what happens when Bay Street floods - check Insta post from Intuition today :)

Isn't it obvious? The shuttle will transform into a pontoon boat. #technology

Charles Hunter

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #219 on: November 15, 2022, 09:04:45 AM »
Even the "godfather" of AVs has doubts ...
Quote
There’s tons of enthusiasm over self-driving cars. But nearly twenty years and some $100 billion since the first demos, the technology just isn’t there yet. In fact, it may be further off from being fully — and safely — autonomous than we’re led to believe.

"You’d be hard-pressed to find another industry that’s invested so many dollars in R&D and that has delivered so little," said self-driving pioneer Anthony Levandowski, in a must-read new interview with Bloomberg.

As the cofounder of Google’s self-driving division, Levandowski is acknowledged by his peers as one of the key engineers that got the industry up and running
https://futurism.com/self-driving-industry-going-nowhere

More info, requires sharing your email unless you have a Bloomberg sign-in
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2022-10-06/even-after-100-billion-self-driving-cars-are-going-nowhere?sref=YfHlo0rL#xj4y7vzkg&leadSource=uverify%20wall

Charles Hunter

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #220 on: December 08, 2022, 10:34:22 AM »
Uber rolls the dice in Las Vegas with AVs
Quote
Uber and Motional, the Hyundai-Aptiv joint venture focused on commercializing self-driving technology, have launched a robotaxi service in Las Vegas — the first step in the companies’ 10-year plan to co-scale across major North American cities, which was announced in October.

...

Human safety operators will be inside the vehicles at first, but Motional and Uber hope to begin driverless operations in 2023. Similar to Motional’s other partnerships, the robotaxi service with Uber will initially be free while the companies collect user feedback.

https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/07/uber-and-motional-launch-robotaxi-service-in-las-vegas/?utm_placement=newsletter


Charles Hunter

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #221 on: December 08, 2022, 01:53:31 PM »
And another view of the Uber Las Vegas announcement: https://futurism.com/the-byte/please-stop-with-these-stupid-robotaxis

Quote
In an apparent bid to drum up excitement, Motional announced that its taxis will be fully driverless by 2023 (we've heard that one before). So no more safety drivers, in other words. Somehow, less safety is the selling point here. Can they just knock off the hype bait until they have something real to show off?

thelakelander

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #222 on: December 08, 2022, 05:35:05 PM »
They have a point. Knock off the hype and stop promising checks that can't be cashed.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

Lunican

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #223 on: December 08, 2022, 10:19:53 PM »
The Skyway Conversion RFP was canceled today.

Five days ago JTA announced they'd received two proposals from Kimley-Horn and HNTB, with Kimley-Horn ranked first, but they seem to have rejected both. It's unclear what happened. Apparently the next JTA board meeting is November 3rd, so I suppose if anything is to be explained it'll be then.

The current trains are past their service life and there is nothing in the works to replace them? Is there a path forward for the Skyway at all?

thelakelander

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Re: Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....
« Reply #224 on: December 09, 2022, 09:21:23 AM »
Seems like its U2C or bust.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali